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Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

It's time we had a new thread to discuss FIATs and other cool Italian cars since the old thread seems to have petered out.

Yes, it should be all caps because it's an acronym: Fabbrica Italiana Automobili Torino

FIAT currently sells four models in the US:


FIAT's upscale cousin is Alfa Romeo:


My understanding is that the 2012 500s had a lot of issues and did FIAT's already dodgy reputation a lot of harm, but later model years were much better. I'm curious as to owners' experiences with them.

I own a 124 Spider and it's fantastic.

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KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22
The Panda is still the best FIAT by far.

Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

The Panda is still the best FIAT by far.

I've never seen a Panda. At some point FIAT talked about a US version. What ever happened to that?

Preoptopus
Aug 25, 2008

Три полоски,
три по три полоски
Doing oil changes on the 500l requires pulling the intake off the turbo. I pulled one off an example with 20k on the clock and there was oil leaking into the intake out of the turbo. I also noticed it was built in serbia. That's all I really know about modern FIATs.

Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

Preoptopus posted:

Doing oil changes on the 500l requires pulling the intake off the turbo. I pulled one off an example with 20k on the clock and there was oil leaking into the intake out of the turbo. I also noticed it was built in serbia. That's all I really know about modern FIATs.

Not true. Spend a little time on YouTube. There's lots of videos of how to replace the oil filter without removing anything, even the engine cover.

Also, I don't see why being made in Serbia makes any difference.

Seat Safety Switch
May 27, 2008

MY RELIGION IS THE SMALL BLOCK V8 AND COMMANDMENTS ONE THROUGH TEN ARE NEVER LIFT.

Pillbug

Deteriorata posted:

I've never seen a Panda. At some point FIAT talked about a US version. What ever happened to that?

Vacationing in Italy made me fall in love with the Nuova Panda (03-12). I don't know if the new new Panda is any good, but I think the 2nd gen looks the best.

I wanted the Jeep Renegade to be a Panda but apparently it's more of a 500X derivative which is depressing.

Oh man, 03s become legal next year for import here.

lilbeefer
Oct 4, 2004

Man I love those 124s, they look like mini Jag XKRS from behind. Are they better then the MX5?

bolind
Jun 19, 2005



Pillbug
The 500L is loving humongenourmous.

Also:

Olympic Mathlete
Feb 25, 2011

:h:

I LMAO when I see a modern FIAT 500, there's an original one that lives a few streets away and it's tiny. I then see a FIAT 500 X or L and just die from laughing because they're the most hideous cars currently for sale anywhere in the world and yet people buy them.



...when you get a picture taken next to your fat friend because it makes you look super tiny.





Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

fickle poofterist posted:

Man I love those 124s, they look like mini Jag XKRS from behind. Are they better then the MX5?

IMO, yes. I drove them both. The 124 is quieter and has a more compliant suspension, while still cornering flatter than the MX5. The MX5 just felt coarser and less refined in comparison. Despite sharing so much hardware, the two have very different souls.

The 1.4L Multi-air engine is great. Plus, it's comparatively cheap ($900) and easy to retune the ECU to bump it up to 200 HP.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

Seat Safety Switch posted:

Vacationing in Italy made me fall in love with the Nuova Panda (03-12). I don't know if the new new Panda is any good, but I think the 2nd gen looks the best.

I wanted the Jeep Renegade to be a Panda but apparently it's more of a 500X derivative which is depressing.

Oh man, 03s become legal next year for import here.

The new Panda is decent but really you ought to get the MultiJet rather than the twinair.

The new Tipo/Egea is OK, but it really needs to be an absolute outright win for FIAT to survive and it won't be.

Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

Found some info on the 2018 Spiders:



The Bleu Scuro would look awfully nice. Even better if it's metallic, but I don't think so. The color palette is still rather disappointing, but it's a step forward.

Option packages will also be split up more so you can get what you want without stuff you don't want.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22
There's a very nice Fulvia Rallye 1.3 on BAT right now. If the color was better and I wasn't moving in a few months I'd jump on it.

Italian cars before roughly 1975 are the best Italian cars.

InitialDave
Jun 14, 2007

I Want To Believe.
Seems like the thread to espouse my Tea Bag Engine Theory.

Now, y'all must've encountered teabags. Even those of you in the regions where "tea" is something you drink cold and sweet while contemplating how good your sister looks in those Daisy Dukes. I ain't judging (you're not wrong, she's nice), I'm just saying.

Anyway, teabags. They were invented by accident. Or "on accident" if you will insist (gently caress off back to English class). Well, anyhow. What's pertinent to this story is a chap named Thomas Sullivan. He's from New York, but we won't hold that against him. Y'see, Mr Sullivan, he recognised that when shipping relatively small quantities of tea, it being a light product, packaging was a waste of money. But you have what is effectively a premium product, and cutting down on packaging has to be done without seeming cheap.

So the solution is a light package in a classy (really classy, not "girl ordering a Babycham at a Newcastle bar in 1972" classy) material. That material? Well, what else, it's got to be silk. Ship those tea leaves out in little silk bags, and the people used to small wooden boxes won't think you're a bit of a peasant, but you still save on the shipping.

Now, you don't want to insult your customers, so we'll leave it as read that it's understood that the packaging is, well, packaging. That's a good idea, y'know, don't want to be seen to be talking down to people. Unfortunately, it wasn't "understood", and people just dunked those silk bags into hot water to release the brew held captive within. Over time, people realised that even the silk was unnecessary overengineering, and paper would last just fine for the duration of the dirty deed of dunking (that's what us big boys call "alliteration").

Which leads to InitialDave's Tea Bag Theory of Italian Automobiles.

You're really buying a beautifully engineered, premium engine. Everything else is just packaging to help you get it home, and will probably start to disintegrate when exposed to moisture.

TopherCStone
Feb 27, 2013

I am very important and deserve your attention

InitialDave posted:


You're really buying a beautifully engineered, premium engine. Everything else is just packaging to help you get it home, and will probably start to disintegrate when exposed to moisture.
This is fantastic

DJ Commie
Feb 29, 2004

Stupid drivers always breaking car, Gronk fix car...
I have a copy of Guy Croft's Modifying & Tuning Fiat/Lancia Twin-Cam Engines if anyone wants it. Its useless for my X1/9 SOHC engine :(

cakesmith handyman
Jul 22, 2007

Pip-Pip old chap! Last one in is a rotten egg what what.

Olympic Mathlete posted:

they're the most hideous cars currently for sale anywhere in the world and yet people buy them.

They didn't want to lose that title after discontinuing the most practical car in the world...

Sadly the multipla never came in auto which is what my wife is starting to need. Wonder how much work a swap would be?

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

InitialDave posted:

You're really buying a beautifully engineered, premium engine. Everything else is just packaging to help you get it home, and will probably start to disintegrate when exposed to moisture.

I'd argue that in most cases you are buying a wonderful drivetrain and a car that handles better than it ought to, but everything else is probably poo poo.

Also, if you've driven the TwinAir, you would realize you are actually buying a tremendous lump of garbage.

Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

FIAT on the Dragon



Coming up the end of the month for you weirdos who like hanging out with other people who own Italian cars. I'm not going myself (I mean, I like Italian cars but I'm not that weird), but an FYI for those interested.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

Deteriorata posted:

FIAT on the Dragon



Coming up the end of the month for you weirdos who like hanging out with other people who own Italian cars. I'm not going myself (I mean, I like Italian cars but I'm not that weird), but an FYI for those interested.

is your 124 an Abarth or no

Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

is your 124 an Abarth or no

No, a Lusso. I'm not going to track it and don't need the LSD.

MrOnBicycle
Jan 18, 2008
Wait wat?
Just saw and test sat a Giulia Veloce. Everytime I see them in person I fall in love again. Pictures really don't do them justice. Veloce is Q4 only here in Sweden and have higher suspension than the RWD, but I kinda like it. Makes it look more aggressive. The interior is really nice, but I do second the criticism of the feel of the rotating knobs. A bit cheap. But then again, details that really don't matter. I'm 192cm and could sit comfortably behind my driving position as long as I don't sit in that weird super straight back way that car testers seem to sit in.

mobby_6kl
Aug 9, 2009

cakesmith handyman posted:

They didn't want to lose that title after discontinuing the most practical car in the world...

Sadly the multipla never came in auto which is what my wife is starting to need. Wonder how much work a swap would be?
Probably too much to be worth it. Although it's not as bad as it used to be, I hear that divorces are still an expensive pain in the rear end.

InitialDave
Jun 14, 2007

I Want To Believe.
Split the difference. Fitting a new clutch/used gearbox at 4-figure mileage intervals is probably cheaper and less hassle than an auto conversion or a divorce.

Kaptainballistik
Nov 2, 2005

Why ask me ? I cant understand me either!

DJ Commie posted:

I have a copy of Guy Croft's Modifying & Tuning Fiat/Lancia Twin-Cam Engines if anyone wants it. Its useless for my X1/9 SOHC engine :(

Why would you sell that???

If you don't want it, we can give it a loving home

cakesmith handyman
Jul 22, 2007

Pip-Pip old chap! Last one in is a rotten egg what what.

InitialDave posted:

Split the difference. Fitting a new clutch/used gearbox at 4-figure mileage intervals is probably cheaper and less hassle than an auto conversion or a divorce.

Nah, she's looking to need an auto because of her back. If I'm dreaming big swaps though the Nissan leaf is wide open to the enthusiast crowd and has been swapped into most types of car.

Because what a fiat needs is more electrickery right?

Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

Another Fabulous FIAT Fun Fest for you Texans:



Knock yourselves out.

Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

More FIAT fun!



This is the national convention for the FIAT club of America, July 19-23 in Milwaukee.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22
should I do a post on the Fulvia or does no one care

MrOnBicycle
Jan 18, 2008
Wait wat?
Post it.

Had to YouTube it once I read about the engine. Was not disappointed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HcCrEliXHU

Edit: ....and I always end up listening to GTV6's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTqX0J6Dp5g

MrOnBicycle fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Mar 15, 2017

Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

should I do a post on the Fulvia or does no one care

:justpost:

I'd like to read it, anyway.

Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

Another Italian car thing, this time for Canadians:




7th Annual ITALIAN CAR DAY 2017
Sunday, August 13, 2017
9:00 AM
Boyd Conservation Area
8739 Islington Ave., Woodbridge, ON

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

Serie 1 1.3 Rallye Coupe in Blu Lancia, classic color scheme. The cream-painted steel wheels with chrome hubcaps are stock.

To really understand the Fulvia, you have to really understand Lancia, which I dont think is quite possible. Lancia was founded by a pair of ex-FIAT racing drivers in Turin. Fundamentally a company by and for engineers, it produced some innovative and strange cars all the way up to its acquisition by FIAT in 1974. Notable innovations: First production V6, a strange sliding pillar front suspension design stolen from cyclecars, first European car with a full electrical system, first five speed gear box, independent suspension on production cars, etc. It was generally an early adopter of innovative technologies like disc brakes, front wheel drive, overhead cam engine designs, etc. They're probably best known in the US for the absolutely insane Lancia Stratos and the equally mental Delta Integrale and their resulting success in WRC and the IMC that preceded it. The commercial saga was dire, including various ownership changes, a complete lack of focus on mass production and automation, and low sales due to very high prices (in part because of the high quality and essentially semi-hand-built nature of the cars). The bean counters matter, unfortunately.

Anyway, back to the Fulvia. The Italian saying is Boys drive Alfas and men drive Lancias. Lancias were for the sensible conservative petit bourgeois of industrial Northern Italy. Very high build quality, good performance, but not showy. A reasonably apt analogy might be Jaguar. The Fulvia replaced a previous small car, which was a RWD V4 four sedan called the Appia. It had very classic styling, sort of like a small American car from the 40s, and clearly belonged to a bygone era by the 1960s. See below:


Appia Serie 3, last edition. It had been soldiering on since 1953.

Lancia had redesigned their larger car, the Flavia, to be front-wheel drive using a flat four configuration with the engine ahead of the transaxle. Experience with a FF layout led them to use it again. However, the Fulvia was to be quite a bit smaller, and the broad H-4 engine made the floorpan basically dictated a Flavia-sized car. A longitudinally mounted I4 would make the cars nose ridiculously long and the polar moment of inertia extremely far forward. (Saab solved this problem by mounting the engine behind the transaxle, backwards) The solution was to use a similar (but clean sheet) engine to the Appia, a longitudinally mounted V4.


Lancia, Saab and some Euro Fords are the only place that you can see someone write V4 and not write them off as a complete idiot.

The V4 had a number of advantages. First of all, it was a narrow-angle design. The angle between banks varied by displacement, but was between 13 and 11 degrees. This allowed the engine to have a single cylinder head and head gasket, saving money. It also allowed for a true DOHC design with only two cams, not four one for all intake valves and one for all exhaust valves. Most importantly, it allowed the engine and center of gravity to be very close to the front axle due to its very short overall length. VW later copied this shamelessly with the VR6 and VR5, but those were mounted transversely in sort of the opposite packaging requirement.


I think this is actually from an Appia since I dont think Fulvia blocks were painted green (block at left, head at right) but you get the idea.


Silver in the foreground is the cylinder head. You can see its only a bit longer than the battery is wide, and the airbox feeding the twin Solexes is about the same size as well.

Lancia engineers also were able to further shorten the car by tipping the engine over 45 degrees and mounting the radiator next to the engine on the passengers side underneath the intake manifold. The cold side was on the top of the engine, roughly at the centerline of the car, and the hot side was fairly close to the drivers side front wheel.


Imagine the radiator directly in front of the airbox at left.

The design allowed a number of advantages:
Very short front overhang for a car that has its entire powertrain forward of the front axle.
Longitudinally mounted engine which reduces torque steer in a FF configuration
Extreme F-R weight distribution (something like 65-35) depending on trim, which gave a very good level of grip to the drive wheels (hence success in rally)
Small floorpan size and narrow width of the vehicle.
Nice flat floorpan and good interior space relative to size
It makes a really, really cool noise: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtmR16Po7UM

In addition, there was a very high standard of equipment throughout. Series 1 cars had four wheel Dunlop disc brakes, and an all-synchromesh 4-speed gearbox, 14 Pirelli radial tires on the Coupes, aluminum bodywork on most Rallye and HF versions, etc. It was a car that spared no expense and was priced like it. A Series 1 1.3 Rallye in 1967 in the US cost about $3,500 which was a poo poo load of money, considering a Shelby GT350 cost just under $4,000.

Throughout the run, you could get the Fulvia in Berlinetta (sedan), Coupe, or Sport Zagato body styles. The engines ranged from about 1.2L to 1.6L, depending on trim level and application, and usually were fed through one or two Solex carbs. Power outputs range from low 60s in Berlinetta Grecia (sedan for Greek market) versions up to about 130 hp in the rally homologation special 1.6HF. There was also a Zagato-bodied hatchback, but the internally designed Coupe is the best looking in my opinion. Coupe performance was roughly on par with the Alfa GT Junior (also 1300 cc displacement).

This is a pretty good article/review form the time period describing strengths and weaknesses:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a28772/archived-drive-1967-lancia-fulvia/

I particularly like the part about the clock keeping good time it shows what the standards for build quality were in 1967, and in addition as I write this 100% of Fulvia clocks are now inop.

Heres the same car as above from the back, yea girl.



Prices currently range from $7-12,000 for a good Berlinetta, $20,000 for a good 1.3 or 1.3S, $15,000 for a Serie 3 1.3 (decontented, thanks Fiat), $30,000 for a 1.6, and $Texas for anything with an HF on it. The Fulvia was decontented after purchase by Fiat for the Serie 3, and then replaced by the absolutely terrible Lancia Beta. The last "True" Lancia is usually considered to be the Serie 2 Lancia 2000, which was descended from the Flavia. After that, it's almost all badge-engineered Fiats all the way down, even for the excellent Stratos and Delta Integrale.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Mar 23, 2017

Boaz MacPhereson
Jul 11, 2006

Day 12045 Ht10hands 180lbs
No Name
No lumps No Bumps Full life Clean
Two good eyes No Busted Limbs
Piss OK Genitals intact
Multiple scars Heals fast
O NEGATIVE HI OCTANE
UNIVERSAL DONOR
Lone Road Warrior Rundown
on the Powder Lakes V8
No guzzoline No supplies
ISOLATE PSYCHOTIC
Keep muzzled...

Thank you very much for this cool-rear end post. I'm pretty ignorant about Lancias (and Italian cars in general), but I've always thought the Fulvias were pretty. Similar to the old Giulias which are definitely lookers. I had no idea that they had V4s. Very cool!

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

Boaz MacPhereson posted:

Thank you very much for this cool-rear end post. I'm pretty ignorant about Lancias (and Italian cars in general), but I've always thought the Fulvias were pretty. Similar to the old Giulias which are definitely lookers. I had no idea that they had V4s. Very cool!

Pretty on the outside, weird as gently caress on the inside in a good way.

Lancia made some wild stuff. The Flavia/2000 is quite nice as well, the flat-fours are torquey and slow to rev versus the Fulvia which hates being under 2000 rpm.

MrOnBicycle
Jan 18, 2008
Wait wat?
:syoon:
Thanks for posting that. I was looking forward to it.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22
Also, if anyone is interested in acquiring Italian stuff from back when it was actually good and interesting, let me know. I have a fair stable of contacts over in Italy for both acquiring cars and shipment/handling to the US. I'm not in the business myself, but can get you connected with some decent people.

Seat Safety Switch
May 27, 2008

MY RELIGION IS THE SMALL BLOCK V8 AND COMMANDMENTS ONE THROUGH TEN ARE NEVER LIFT.

Pillbug

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

Also, if anyone is interested in acquiring Italian stuff from back when it was actually good and interesting, let me know. I have a fair stable of contacts over in Italy for both acquiring cars and shipment/handling to the US. I'm not in the business myself, but can get you connected with some decent people.

That's pretty interesting. The Nuova Panda is supposed to become legal for import into Canada soon too.

Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

Thanks for that, Kyoon. I'd never really gotten straight on what Lancia was all about.

Meanwhile, Bob Flavin (The Next Gear) orgasms all over an Alfa Giulia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyO1YtgiTlw

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DoLittle
Jul 26, 2006
Here is my father's Fulvia. They are quirky and well engineered cars, but it is not difficult to see why they went bankrupt. When new this car was more expensive in UK than Jag E-type.



Edit: To continue with the subject of needlessly flamboyant Italian engineering in relatively mundane cars. This sandcast aluminum creation is the standard oil pan of a 60's 1.3 litre family sedan (Alfa Giulia):



DoLittle fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Mar 26, 2017

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