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kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Red_Fred posted:

I've always known that Italian cars are hilariously unreliable and strangely designed. Is this still the case? Why is/has that been the case?
For their original market, bad build quality was never a dealbreaker, somehow. Honda would have never made it in America if they didn't increase the reliability gap with domestic cars with each generation.
But in their heyday, Italian cars could be unreliable but still a dream to drive and worth the headache.

New cars are lightyears more reliable than something from the 80s or before. But I also wouldn't be surprised if a Giulia ends up being more trouble and higher TOC than a BMW.

I'm gonna try to get an Integrale Evo someday... someday.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiwaZ9SD6-A&t=10s

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DoLittle
Jul 26, 2006
Apparently the 200 hp petrol Alfa Giulias sold in Europe only differ from the 280 hp models through software. So you can buy the cheaper 200 hp model and just change the software from the 280 hp model. Tuners also offer the same 310 - 320 hp programs for both of them. So 200 hp -> 320 hp with just a software change...

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

DoLittle posted:

Apparently the 200 hp petrol Alfa Giulias sold in Europe only differ from the 280 hp models through software. So you can buy the cheaper 200 hp model and just change the software from the 280 hp model. Tuners also offer the same 310 - 320 hp programs for both of them. So 200 hp -> 320 hp with just a software change...

That's quite normal for turbocharged engines in general but especially in Europe.

The Giulia may be a great car but it's not selling well at all. Monthly gains, sure, but it's getting beaten out by the positively ancient S60, the 2-series which is two doors only, and the ATS (lol). It is one of the worst selling cars in its segment. It is selling better than the XE, though!

DoLittle
Jul 26, 2006
It sells 4-5 times more than S60 in Europe. In US they are about the same. Currently Giulia is selling ~3500 units (mostly in Europe) per month with slight upwards trend. If the US sales would reach European levels it would be close to the 70 000 per year target.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

DoLittle posted:

It sells 4-5 times more than S60 in Europe. In US they are about the same. Currently Giulia is selling ~3500 units (mostly in Europe) per month with slight upwards trend. If the US sales would reach European levels it would be close to the 70 000 per year target.

spoiler alert it won't, Alfa's dealer network is poo poo

DoLittle
Jul 26, 2006

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

spoiler alert it won't, Alfa's dealer network is poo poo

It is very much poo poo in Europe as well.

Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

DoLittle posted:

Apparently the 200 hp petrol Alfa Giulias sold in Europe only differ from the 280 hp models through software. So you can buy the cheaper 200 hp model and just change the software from the 280 hp model. Tuners also offer the same 310 - 320 hp programs for both of them. So 200 hp -> 320 hp with just a software change...

This is true of the FIAT 124s as well. The 140 HP Euro spec is identical hardware to the 160 HP American spec - it's just detuned in the ECU.

eyebeem
Jul 18, 2013

by R. Guyovich
Also 500 Turbo vs Abarth, if we are just talking drivetrain.

MrOnBicycle
Jan 18, 2008
Wait wat?

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

That's quite normal for turbocharged engines in general but especially in Europe.

The Giulia may be a great car but it's not selling well at all. Monthly gains, sure, but it's getting beaten out by the positively ancient S60, the 2-series which is two doors only, and the ATS (lol). It is one of the worst selling cars in its segment. It is selling better than the XE, though!

It's hard to enter a market where 90% of the target audience still go round saying "Alfa? That'll rust or break down before I even get it! Better buy German quality that never breaks and the neighbor will think I'm well off because it's a badge they recognize!".
I think the most sold car in Sweden is a VW Golf (and probably pretty low range models), followed by some Volvos and the the Passat. Doesn't get much more conformist than that. Why would they stray from the mainstream? I can't say that I blame them. It's a double edged sword anyway, since part of the appeal (for me at least) of Alfa Romeo is that they are not a car that the mainstream buys, and therefore not a car that I see on every corner. Yet I want them to succeed enough so that they can keep making great cars that look great.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22
Look I am the worlds biggest Italian car apologist but when your product is just... almost as good, with a bad reputation for reliability and garbage dealer support, you're not going to have a good couple years.

On the other hand if that weren't the case it wouldn't be an Alfa. If they offered the base engine with a stick I would own one already, the QV is just a bit too expensive.

MrOnBicycle
Jan 18, 2008
Wait wat?
Yeah I agree. I mean I own an Alfa (that just got shat on by regular car reviews :( ). The bad thing about having an Alfa is that I can't really think of a car that I'd rather have for the same money. Nor can I think of a car I'd rather upgrade to than the Giulia (for the same money)... and believe me I've tried to find something I'd rather have than a temperamental below par in reliability car. It'll be interesting to see what the Giulias will sell for once they come of the leases.

Closest I get is french cars. Especially recently.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
I'm drooling: http://www.evo.co.uk/news/19684/jay-kays-lancia-delta-integrale-comes-up-for-sale
Watch that video if you aren't familiar with the Integrale Evo -- shows a few of the special bits.

Olympic Mathlete
Feb 25, 2011

:h:

kimbo305 posted:

I'm drooling: http://www.evo.co.uk/news/19684/jay-kays-lancia-delta-integrale-comes-up-for-sale
Watch that video if you aren't familiar with the Integrale Evo -- shows a few of the special bits.

I appreciate the song names included in the text there. :v:

CornHolio
May 20, 2001

Toilet Rascal
A guy I work with bought recently a 1972 Fiat 850 Spyder. 47HP of Italian magnificence.





slothrop
Dec 7, 2006

Santa Alpha, Fox One... Gifts Incoming ~~~>===|>

Soiled Meat
https://drivetribe.com/p/watch-alfa-romeo-alfaholics-gta-MQovbAr_QNOkHn6W49Xgrw?iid=OENFnT3ITtuqVxzMoopxRA

Here, have a video showcasing the new Giulia vs a heavily worked original. I'd have both these cars in a heartbeat.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
:3:
http://jalopnik.com/the-alfa-romeo-giulia-is-the-perfect-unreliable-italian-1796883384

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

I'm legitimately glad that someone is still making 'em like they used ta

Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

Relatedly, a heart-felt plea to Alfa from a true lover of the mark to get its poo poo together:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a10308214/alfa-romeo-giulia-issues/

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
He makes a lot of good points (and gets quoted in the other article), but he doesn't double down on the fact that teething pains or not, new cars can never have the character that old cars will. Like if the car performed flawlessly, would it be able to recapture the brand spirit in a Spider or GTV?

DoLittle
Jul 26, 2006
Wheel transport to the track:


Over a blind crest...


...and downhill right on to a bridge.



After a short trip onto gravel I came to the conclusion that I need a better seat so that I can keep the hands on the steering wheel:

DoLittle fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Aug 27, 2017

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

kimbo305 posted:

He makes a lot of good points (and gets quoted in the other article), but he doesn't double down on the fact that teething pains or not, new cars can never have the character that old cars will. Like if the car performed flawlessly, would it be able to recapture the brand spirit in a Spider or GTV?

He does mention that no modern car can match up to the older stuff, but it is kind of a throwaway line.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

He does mention that no modern car can match up to the older stuff, but it is kind of a throwaway line.

I know he wrote that; I'm just saying that he's positioning his argument to mean that if the Giulia were trouble free, then it would really capture people's imagination in a way that other cars can't. He wants the car to be well made, but that doesn't necessarily get it to where it needs to be.

Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

Ferrari confirms plan for utility vehicle

quote:

MILAN -- Ferrari confirmed it is considering an expansion into the utility vehicle business by "reinventing" the segment and plans to boost the range of hybrid sports cars even as the company seeks to maintain an exclusivity status. Details of the new strategy will be unveiled next year.

"It will probably happen but it will happen in Ferrari's style," CEO Sergio Marchionne said of the planned utility vehicle on a conference call Wednesday after Ferrari reported a 24 percent advance in second-quarter profit. "That space is too big and too inviting and we have a lot of our customers who will be more than willing to drive a Ferrari-branded vehicle that has that king of utilitarian objective."

:suicide:

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22
ok as long as it's like the FF i don't give a poo poo

the FF was cool

Olympic Mathlete
Feb 25, 2011

:h:

The FF was/is indeed cool but people didn't realise it.

...it won't be like the FF though. :/

Cholmondeley
Sep 28, 2006

New World Orderly
Nap Ghost
I wish Alfa would bring back an updated Matta.

MrOnBicycle
Jan 18, 2008
Wait wat?
As someone who had their sight set on a Giulia when they come off the leases it makes me sad that the future doesn't seem all too good reliability wise. What other RWD/RWD biased 4 wheel drive good looking cars that aren't on every street corner are there?

cakesmith handyman
Jul 22, 2007

Pip-Pip old chap! Last one in is a rotten egg what what.

Nevermind the future the present isn't looking great for reliability.

I hope Ferrari pours out something lame and Lamborghini re-issues the LM 00-whatever kicking off another Ferrari/lambo tiff.

DoLittle
Jul 26, 2006
I went to the third Alfa club trackday of the season which was very wet. The GTV6 tended to understeer heavily and I had use the throttle to get it to turn in slower corners. Just before the "time-attack" competition I detached the front antiroll bar, which helped a lot. I finished 3rd / 8 in the modified car class. Since then I've driven it without the ARB also in dry and it is not that bad... I should probably try to switch back to the original ARB or get an adjustable blade version.





DoLittle fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Aug 27, 2017

donut
Feb 4, 2001

Is there something really wrong with the 500e (electric)? I just looked at listings and there are tons of 2014 models, for under $8000 and even $7000 all day long. I understand there's a bunch coming off lease so the market is flooded but that still seems cheap. Are my expectations off or is there something deathly wrong with them?

Deteriorata
Feb 6, 2005

donut posted:

Is there something really wrong with the 500e (electric)? I just looked at listings and there are tons of 2014 models, for under $8000 and even $7000 all day long. I understand there's a bunch coming off lease so the market is flooded but that still seems cheap. Are my expectations off or is there something deathly wrong with them?

Nothing really wrong with it as far as I know. It's not a very good car by all reports. FIAT only makes it to satisfy the CARB.

http://www.caranddriver.com/fiat/500e

eyebeem
Jul 18, 2013

by R. Guyovich
All low range electric cars have poo poo resale. You can buy leafs, 500e, focus electric, golf e for nothing all day long.

They can be leased cheap as poo poo and don't work for high mile drivers that don't lease so they have no value on the used market. I might buy the wife a cheap leaf to commute in because they are almost free.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22
Range isn't very good, much like all of that generation of compliance electrics, but they are cheap and you are getting rid of several of the points of failure on the 500!

Also Serge hates you if you buy one so that's a plus.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22
Resurrecting this thread from the dead to say - got in the mix on BAT for the Fulvia that just sold. Prices are getting absolutely insane, though. That's a 13k euro car in Italy, not sure that avoiding import hassles is really worth more than 5K. I will probably go the Italy route later this year and will post a thread on the process or something if I get less lazy.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
The Fulvia is incredible stylish but the prices people seem willing to pay are way higher than what the car is, yeah. It'd better drive incredibly. It's that kind of rare where I've never experienced what it feels like, like most vintage Italian cars.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22
Kind of kicking myself that I didn't scrimp a bit harder 2-3 years ago and pick one up then. The market has gotten pretty crazy, pretty fast. 19,5 for a pretty original S1 1.3S in decent shape that needs a seat reupholstered, some TLC on a paint scratch, a floorpan patch (which will hurt the value of the car if patched), and has exceedingly unattractive (to my mind) aftermarket wheels. Granted, it was the most classic color combination but still. I actually agree with noted Lancist Ed L that BAT has probably hosed up the market for these cars in the US. I'll be interested to see what the (unarguably better sorted out) red S2 goes for in a few days.

slothrop
Dec 7, 2006

Santa Alpha, Fox One... Gifts Incoming ~~~>===|>

Soiled Meat
Here's Chris Harris in that Alfaholics GTA-R

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BuZmJmpTdk

Very much a "if I won the lotto" car for me

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
Look who's making moves on an Integrale!
https://bringatrailer.com/member/kpflynn/

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22
I am in Brazil right now and have an indeed Fabulous Italian Automobile with Brazilian Characteristics.

It's a 2017 Fiat Uno "Attractive" trim. It's made in the Fiat plant in Belo Horizonte, and is roughly the market equivalent of the Panda, with which it shares almost no components. The Uno is based on the old Palio.

The car has a three-cylinder NA 996cc six valve engine that runs on either ethanol or gasoline. Most people run their cars on ethanol if possible because it's about 70% of the cost of gasoline. Ethanol improves torque and reduces top end power by a little bit. Horsepower is roughly 70-72 depending on fuel type, and torque is about the same range in lb-ft. You can tell it's a FIAT because the gearbox is absolute garbage but the engine is very decent. It will happily rev away at 5000 RPMs and I've definitely pushed it well up to the 6500 RPM redline without realizing it. You have to rev the gently caress out of any car with 70hp, but especially in Brazil since there are a poo poo ton of hills. The handling is OK, suspension is fairly compliant and does a good job soaking up the ruts, potholes, and speed bumps.

It has cloth seats, air conditioning, manual mirrors, power front/manual rear windows, and what looks like a janky aftermarket head unit that takes a USB input but won't charge a phone. The seat is comfortable enough, and visibility is very good. Gauges are simple, as are controls. Neat features include a small parcel shelf above the glovebox and plenty of cupholders and random storage pockets.

It costs about the equivalent of $13,000 US.

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Itchy Tony Manero
Mar 29, 2010

I probably speak for everyone when I say we'd love to see some photos of the Uno.

I traded in my 2009 Grande Punto a couple of months ago, and just noticed someone in my neighborhood drives one just like it. As in exact same color (Grigio Argento), same trim and dealer options, and almost identical license plate (same three letters, and only 15 numbers apart in sequence). Which means they probably rolled out of the factory around the same time, likely arrived on the same boat, were registered and sold at the same dealership, and somehow managed to end up in the same area eight years later. I'll have to dig up some photos when I have the chance. It's a decidedly unimpressive little car in almost every regard, but at least Giugiaro didn't do a terrible job designing the exterior.

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