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Will Perez force the dems left? This poll is closed. |
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| Yes |
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33 | 6.38% |
| No |
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343 | 66.34% |
| Keith Ellison |
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54 | 10.44% |
| Pete Buttigieg |
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71 | 13.73% |
| Jehmu Green |
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16 | 3.09% |
| Total: | 416 votes | ||
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khwarezm posted:How the hell did you get that from his post? Yada yada yada - anyway I mention this stuff in the other thread and immediately Fulchrum / deak (he's deak? lol) wants to know which bills the GOP have passed since Jan 20 which directly and tangibly benefit Republicans, and nothing else.
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Mar 5, 2017 23:14
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Kilroy posted:He got it from his last thread that he hosed up, where I mentioned that the GOP does more to achieve what their base wants when they have power, e.g. endless bills to repeal Obamacare, seriously damaging the legitimacy the courts for a chance to install a pro-life Justice to SCOTUS, brinksmanship over the budget and debt in order to extract concessions from the President, etc etc. These are all horrible things, but they play well with the base so the GOP does it. It's not so much that we should want the Democrats to act this way, but some pandering in the form of at least trying to do what we want them to do would be nice, as opposed to immediately acting as though they're embarrassed to even have a base in the first place. It's nice to say "we're the party for all Americans" but when you get elected and then immediately ignore the people who voted for you, you tend not to do well in politics. I like how the only one of those that was even close to what their base wants and not just pure spite also happens to be the exact same action they would do if they wholly served their corporate masters and wanted a supreme Court Justice who would defend Citizens United v. Clinton to his dying breath. And how it ignores that the right wing base is a bunch of brainwashed rage monsters who reject any and every narrative Fox doesn't vomit down their throats, while you regularly keep going to Breitbart to hear how the Dems have betrayed you. They made the base love what they wanted to do anyway, they don't adhere to what the base wants, you dumb gently caress.
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Mar 5, 2017 23:24
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And look at the substantial shifts in GOP opinion on free trade and Russia since Trump got the nomination. He told the base to get hosed on those issues and they loved him for it.
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Mar 5, 2017 23:26
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Fulchrum posted:I like how the only one of those that was even close to what their base wants and not just pure spite also happens to be the exact same action they would do if they wholly served their corporate masters and wanted a supreme Court Justice who would defend Citizens United v. Clinton to his dying breath.
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Mar 5, 2017 23:44
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JeffersonClay posted:And look at the substantial shifts in GOP opinion on free trade and Russia since Trump got the nomination. He told the base to get hosed on those issues and they loved him for it.
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Mar 5, 2017 23:44
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Kilroy posted:And this supports your argument that the Democrats can triangulate their way back to political relevancy because _______________. I don't see any connection to the strawman you constructed, either.
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Mar 5, 2017 23:50
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Kilroy posted:He got it from his last thread that he hosed up, where I mentioned that the GOP does more to achieve what their base wants when they have power, e.g. endless bills to repeal Obamacare, seriously damaging the legitimacy the courts for a chance to install a pro-life Justice to SCOTUS, brinksmanship over the budget and debt in order to extract concessions from the President, etc etc. These are all horrible things, but they play well with the base so the GOP does it. It's not so much that we should want the Democrats to act this way, but some pandering in the form of at least trying to do what we want them to do would be nice, as opposed to immediately acting as though they're embarrassed to even have a base in the first place. It's nice to say "we're the party for all Americans" but when you get elected and then immediately ignore the people who voted for you, you tend not to do well in politics. I agree. The dems need to pander to their awful base and at least pretend to want an end to sexism, an end to racism, a fair minimum wage, equality of opportunity, and an end to foreign wars of adventure. But that's obviously too much for them to even try to pretend. I get that I'm asking for way too much.
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Mar 5, 2017 23:54
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Shbobdb posted:I agree. The dems need to pander to their awful base and at least pretend to want an end to sexism, an end to racism, a fair minimum wage, equality of opportunity, and an end to foreign wars of adventure. Considering that anything less than pulling some hitherto undiscovered lever that makes all Republicans heads literally implode and then achieving each of these with no consequences ever overnight is shouted down as identity politics, a distraction or lies, yes, you literally are asking for way too much. That's the thing about the Dem base - when they get red meat, they throw it back cause it's not locally sourced and cruelty free, and that Dems are being discriminatory cause they didn't throw something for vegetarians.
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Mar 6, 2017 00:04
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JeffersonClay posted:And look at the substantial shifts in GOP opinion on free trade and Russia since Trump got the nomination. He told the base to get hosed on those issues and they loved him for it. The GOP base was never meaningfully pro-free-trade or anti-Russia after they dropped the Communism and replaced it with alt-right white nationalism Trump won by giving the GOP base what they wanted, which the Gingrich/Ryan generation did not do You're a dumbass
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Mar 6, 2017 00:15
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Ah yes, I remember how the Tea Party reaction to Obama trying to improve relations with Russia was "good for them, this will be a boon for peace".
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Mar 6, 2017 00:20
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Nope, they are going to double down on the stuff that lost Hillary the election and the GOP will own the white house for the next couple of generations.
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Mar 6, 2017 00:22
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Fulchrum posted:Ah yes, I remember how the Tea Party reaction to Obama trying to improve relations with Russia was "good for them, this will be a boon for peace". That was when a Kenyan born Muslim traitor was doing the negotiating, who probably was a Communist deep down too
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Mar 6, 2017 00:24
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icantfindaname posted:That was when a Kenyan born Muslim traitor was doing the negotiating, who probably was a Communist deep down too It's almost like they don't have a single actual political belief outside blindly opposing Dems, and Trump won them over by calling Obama a Kenyan. So the equivalent of this to make Dems all unite and love her would be Hillary saying Trump was a horrible human being. Wonder why she never did that?
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Mar 6, 2017 00:28
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icantfindaname posted:The GOP base was never meaningfully pro-free-trade or anti-Russia after they dropped the Communism and replaced it with alt-right white nationalism icantfindaname posted:That was when a Kenyan born Muslim traitor was doing the negotiating, who probably was a Communist deep down too So you're asserting that the transition from anti-communism to alt-right white nationalism had nothing at all to do with the rise of trump, despite these two events happening concurrently and the change in the GOP electorate matching Trump's positions exactly. I'm not sure you should be throwing around terms like dumbass without a bit of self-reflection.
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Mar 6, 2017 00:30
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JeffersonClay posted:So you're asserting that the transition from anti-communism to alt-right white nationalism had nothing at all to do with the rise of trump, despite these two events happening concurrently and the change in the GOP electorate matching Trump's positions exactly. I'm not sure you should be throwing around terms like dumbass without a bit of self-reflection. Russia moved to white-nationalist ethno-nationalism back in the 90s dude. Pat Buchanan was lavishing praise on the Russian far right 25 years ago. It just took until now for the libertarian leadership of the conservative movement to be unseated https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DGSP2N2/ Here's a good book on it
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Mar 6, 2017 00:34
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icantfindaname posted:Russia moved to white-nationalist ethno-nationalism back in the 90s dude In the GOP you loving moron.
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Mar 6, 2017 00:35
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Fulchrum posted:In the GOP you loving moron. Yeah, in the GOP and in movement conservatism the idolization of Russians a a right-wing bastion of the white race has been floating around under the surface for 25 years, you loving dumbass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Buchanan
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Mar 6, 2017 00:37
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icantfindaname posted:Russia moved to white-nationalist ethno-nationalism back in the 90s dude OK, then this statement you just made... icantfindaname posted:That was when a Kenyan born Muslim traitor was doing the negotiating, who probably was a Communist deep down too must be wrong if republicans stopped giving a poo poo about communism in the 90's. You also need to explain why Republicans were lying in all the political polls from 1990 to 2016 where they reported hating Russia and loving free trade. There was a massive change during and after Trump's candidacy, not before.
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Mar 6, 2017 00:38
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icantfindaname posted:Yeah, in the GOP and in movement conservatism the idolization of Russians a a right-wing bastion of the white race has been floating around under the surface for 25 years, you loving dumbass Way, way below the surface, to the point of them all despising it in 2013, yet coincidentally jumping 74% in 3 years just as Trump started praising Putin. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/12/14/gop-voters-warm-to-russia-putin-wikileaks-poll-finds/
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Mar 6, 2017 00:41
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JeffersonClay posted:OK, then this statement you just made... No, I don't, because the idea that people have complicated opinions and that their propensity to change them based on new circumstances and the right arguments is actually an important part of their worldview, is obvious to anyone who's not a dumbass 
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Mar 6, 2017 00:42
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JeffersonClay posted:OK, then this statement you just made... Also, it ignores the neocons that ran the last loving Republican administration's foreign policy whose ideology was formed around hating Russia. Like are we gonna pretend that Bush wasn't the poster boy for the conservative movement now?
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Mar 6, 2017 00:42
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stone cold posted:Also, it ignores the neocons that ran the last loving Republican administration's foreign policy whose ideology was formed around hating Russia. Like are we gonna pretend that Bush wasn't the poster boy for the conservative movement now? Yes, the man who stared into Putin's soul and saw that it was good, was a Russia hater through and through The neocons stopped caring about Russia when Communism went away, and were actually pretty eager to get the new, white-nationalist Russia into their orbit through at least the end of Dubya's term https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovenia_Summit_2001 icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 00:43
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icantfindaname posted:No, I don't, because the idea that people have complicated opinions and that their propensity to change them based on new circumstances and the right arguments is actually an important part of their worldview, is obvious to anyone who's not a dumbass What a coincidence that the right argument was "Russia is great. You should like Russia" from a new York media figure. But I'm sure all his arguments were well thought out and highly researched, and it wasn't the base changing on a dime to March to whatever bullshit Trump was spewing.
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Mar 6, 2017 00:44
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JeffersonClay posted:And look at the substantial shifts in GOP opinion on free trade and Russia since Trump got the nomination. He told the base to get hosed on those issues and they loved him for it. he didn't really tell the base to get hosed, just leapt on their opinion changing when russia leaked hillary's dirty laundry
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Mar 6, 2017 00:44
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icantfindaname posted:No, I don't, because the idea that people have complicated opinions and that their propensity to change them based on new circumstances and the right arguments is actually an important part of their worldview, is obvious to anyone who's not a dumbass If you're admitting that Trump had the right arguments to change their opinions and convince them that circumstances had changed, why are you calling me a dumbass for suggesting exactly that happened? I think it's because maybe the dumbass is you. Condiv posted:he didn't really tell the base to get hosed, just leapt on their opinion changing when russia leaked hillary's dirty laundry He really did tell them to get hosed did you pay attention to the Republican primary at all? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYZKVsjyxg4 JeffersonClay fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 00:45
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Condiv posted:he didn't really tell the base to get hosed, just leapt on their opinion changing when russia leaked hillary's dirty laundry Trump praising Putin predates the leaks. Trump praising Putin was why there even were leaks.
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Mar 6, 2017 00:45
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JeffersonClay posted:If you're admitting that Trump had the right arguments to change their opinions and convince them that circumstances had changed, why are you calling me a dumbass for suggesting exactly that happened? That's not what you suggested, you suggested he told them to 'get hosed' and they changed their mind. You're a loving idiot quote:He really did tell them to get hosed did you pay attention to the Republican primary at all? The idea that not all politicians or parties have as much contempt for their own voters as elite liberals do for theirs, or that maybe such contempt is a bad strategy in purely electoral terms, is utterly alien to some people icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 00:49
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Frankly I hope Bernie does run just because it will be funny watching so called voices of the democrats say they're voting Trump.
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Mar 6, 2017 00:56
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Are you honestly trying to argue that Trump used empathy, smart arguments and rational discussion to win the GOP primary here? He started the primary campaign by telling the Bush family and all their supporters to go choke on a dick and they all fell in line.
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Mar 6, 2017 00:56
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icantfindaname posted:Yes, the man who stared into Putin's soul and saw that it was good, was a Russia hater through and through Having good personal relations = everything's hunky dory geopolitically That's not totally idiotic, friend Nothing to see here.
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Mar 6, 2017 00:57
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icantfindaname posted:That's not what you suggested, you suggested he told them to 'get hosed' and they changed their mind. You're a loving idiot Trump ground one of their most sacredly held beliefs into the dust and poo poo on it, they immediately tossed any inkling of ever opposing Russia down the memory hole - something you are actively helping them with. Meanwhile, "elite liberals" do everything short of full surrender to the base and you treat it like it's a declaration of open hate. You actively look for any reason you can to not support the dems.
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Mar 6, 2017 00:58
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JeffersonClay posted:He really did tell them to get hosed did you pay attention to the Republican primary at all? i did not watch the republican primary cause i'm not a republican. that being said, i don't see trump telling his base to get hosed in that clip. he deflects from russia as much as he can, and when supporting them or syria it's always couched in "well, what about those guys obama's supporting? who knows what the hell they're up to!" that's not anywhere near telling your base to get hosed jefferson
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Mar 6, 2017 00:58
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Crowsbeak posted:Frankly I hope Bernie does run just because it will be funny watching so called voices of the democrats say they're voting Trump. Because he's "sold out" and they need to "send a message", yes. Also shut the gently caress up you nazi propaganda spewing poo poo head.
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Mar 6, 2017 00:59
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JeffersonClay posted:Are you honestly trying to argue that Trump used empathy, smart arguments and rational discussion to win the GOP primary here? I'm saying that the hostility to Russia was a tenuously held conviction and a holdover from decades prior, and that the seeds of a friendly attitude towards Russia based on their shared far-right ideology and whiteness, were deeply rooted and existed for a long time. Which means Trump actually was pretty smart and tuned in to the Republican base. Which is why he won. Same with the Bushes and the war in Iraq, people backed them out of pure team loyalty, once it became OK to change your mind on them many right-wing voters did
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Mar 6, 2017 01:01
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Fulchrum posted:What the gently caress is wrong with your brain that you think that the "elite liberals" are literally - not figuratively or metaphorically, but literally - telling their base to get hosed? http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2017/02/01/nancy-pelosi-town-hall-capitalism-sot.cnn Yeah its just that the house minority leader did just that. Fulchrum posted:Because he's "sold out" and they need to "send a message", yes. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 01:03
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icantfindaname posted:The idea that not all politicians or parties have as much contempt for their own voters as elite liberals do for theirs, or that maybe such contempt is a bad strategy in purely electoral terms, is utterly alien to some people
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Mar 6, 2017 01:03
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icantfindaname posted:I'm saying that the hostility to Russia was a tenuously held conviction and a holdover from decades prior, and that the seeds of a friendly attitude towards Russia based on their shared far-right ideology and whiteness, were deeply rooted and existed for a long time. Which means Trump actually was pretty smart and tuned in to the Republican base. Which is why he won. so you're gonna ignore the orange and rose revolution, the missile defenses in poland, bush backing out of the abmt etc etc so what's it like denying reality
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Mar 6, 2017 01:06
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icantfindaname posted:I'm saying that the hostility to Russia was a tenuously held conviction and a holdover from decades prior, and that the seeds of a friendly attitude towards Russia based on their shared far-right ideology and whiteness, were deeply rooted and existed for a long time. Negative 47 approval ratings is not a tenuously held belief you dense mother fucker.
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Mar 6, 2017 01:06
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Fulchrum posted:Actually, I still want to try and unpack this, because even if it matched any political reality where Republicans didn't treat their base as brainless cretins who will pull the lever no matter what, it's literally "Billy's mom and dad bought him an Xbox for Christmas! YOU'RE THE WORST PARENTS EVER AND I HATE YOU!" Well democratic votvers are not republican voters. YOu see Iknow you'd like to be a republican, but you can't treat democratic voters like poo poo then expect votes.
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Mar 6, 2017 01:07
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Condiv posted:i did not watch the republican primary cause i'm not a republican. that being said, i don't see trump telling his base to get hosed in that clip. he deflects from russia as much as he can, and when supporting them or syria it's always couched in "well, what about those guys obama's supporting? who knows what the hell they're up to!" Did you see the end where he was bagging on Bush's failed foreign policy? Here's another debate where he yells at the crowd booing him due to his Russia position and he suggests they're all Jeb's special interest supporters and lobbyists. He also shits on Lindsay Graham for the same reason. http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/02/07/gop-debate-trump-bush-wrong-russia-syria-orig-vstan-mg-02.cbs-news icantfindaname posted:I'm saying that the hostility to Russia was a tenuously held conviction and a holdover from decades prior, and that the seeds of a friendly attitude towards Russia based on their shared far-right ideology and whiteness, were deeply rooted and existed for a long time. Which means Trump actually was pretty smart and tuned in to the Republican base. Which is why he won. The thing that made it OK for them to change their mind was trump telling the establishment to get hosed and winning!
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Mar 6, 2017 01:12
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