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Will Perez force the dems left? This poll is closed. |
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|---|---|---|---|
| Yes |
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33 | 6.38% |
| No |
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343 | 66.34% |
| Keith Ellison |
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54 | 10.44% |
| Pete Buttigieg |
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71 | 13.73% |
| Jehmu Green |
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16 | 3.09% |
| Total: | 416 votes | ||
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JeffersonClay posted:Clinton successfully lobbied the Haitians to pass a smaller minimum wage increase in 2011, and they passed the full increase in 2014. Have we seen any substantial improvement in the Haitian economy since 2014? We don't have any robust economic statistics past 2014. But the incomplete statistics from 2015 show slowing GDP growth, slowing investment, and significantly increased inflation. https://www.focus-economics.com/countries/haiti So the assertion that delaying the full minimum wage increase for 3 years caused Haitians to starve cannot be based on anything but your gut feels. Nonzero Haitian people have died of hunger before then, which would likely have been less had the full reise been implemented because people would have more money for food. But of course there wasn't enough ~~~growth~~~ for you Republican-lites, so more people should have been made to starve I guess.
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Mar 6, 2017 18:19
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Libs ignoring people dying in favor of complaining that their pockets aren't being lined fast enough is true for American politics both domestic and otherwise, it seems.
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Mar 6, 2017 18:19
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icantfindaname posted:those stats you cited have nothing at all to do with hunger or food scarcity, or domestic welfare? sorry you hate third world black people, but your case that starvation is actually good doesn't hold up to facts or logic No, like I said no one has any statistics directly related to hinger, so your assertion is obviously based on nothing more than your strong convictions. The data we have showing increased inflation and decreased GDP growth and investment is wholly consistent with the standard minimum wage models we have--it helps some people and hurts others, and the magnitude of those effects and which effect is larger is dependent on the specifics of the labor market and economy in general. So you have no idea whether the minimum wage hike has helped or hurt Haiti, you just want to whine about the primary, which is really stale at this point.
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Mar 6, 2017 18:20
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Starving for economic growth!
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Mar 6, 2017 18:20
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JeffersonClay posted:No, like I said no one has any statistics directly related to hinger, so your assertion is obviously based on nothing more than your strong convictions. The data we have showing increased inflation and decreased GDP growth and investment is wholly consistent with the standard minimum wage models we have--it helps some people and hurts others, and the magnitude of those effects and which effect is larger is dependent on the specifics of the labor market and economy in general. So you have no idea whether the minimum wage hike has helped or hurt Haiti, you just want to whine about the primary, which is really stale at this point. It's not "whining about the primary" to correctly point out that the Dem leadership is still composed of politicians who will gently caress over their constituents for a buck because what are they gonna do, vote for Trump???
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Mar 6, 2017 18:25
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Fiction posted:Nonzero Haitian people have died of hunger before then, which would likely have been less had the full reise been implemented because people would have more money for food. I assumed you understood what inflation is, but I'll break it down for you. It means the things people buy, like food, got more expensive. So we can't conclude that the minimum wage hike actually made it easier for Haitians to buy food. It's very likely it made it easier for some (those who got a wage hike) and harder for others (those that didn't). Have we seen any substantial reduction in poverty in Haiti since 2014? Have we seen improvements in food security? If you could point to those outcomes and eliminate confounding explanations I'd be happy to conclude Hillary was bad and wrong in 2011, but you can't, because those statistics don't exist (yet). Fiction posted:It's not "whining about the primary" to correctly point out that the Dem leadership is still composed of politicians who will gently caress over their constituents for a buck because what are they gonna do, vote for Trump??? What the gently caress does that have to do with Haiti?!?
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Mar 6, 2017 18:27
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JeffersonClay posted:you just want to whine about the primary, which is really stale at this point. This gets thrown around anytime anyone brings up Hillary's policies. Guess what? Hillary's policies shaped the official (D) platform and vise versa. You can't talk about 2017 Democratic Party policies without talking about Clinton or Obama. Now you can say that the average voter doesn't care about Haiti and Iran, but there are plenty of people who do. Plenty of people who wish that the Democratic Party was earnestly diplomatic and progressive and not the neoliberal husk that it is.
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Mar 6, 2017 18:31
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Please point to the part of the 2016 plaform that the party gave to Bernie to write that you think is relevant to haiti's minimum wage.
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Mar 6, 2017 18:38
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Fiction posted:it was the person the party all lined up behind not six months ago, and those people are still in power at the dnc. the fact that they could be so tone deaf speaks volumes about the current state of the party.
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Mar 6, 2017 18:41
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JeffersonClay posted:Please point to the part of the 2016 plaform that the party gave to Bernie to write that you think is relevant to haiti's minimum wage. clinton refused to back a $15 minimum wage in the platform because she didn't want to turn off too many of the upper middle class Republican voters she was angling for. Then those people voted Republican anyway and she lost. That's a pretty good summation of the party's problems with the minimum wage and related policies IMO.
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Mar 6, 2017 18:42
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Fiction posted:clinton refused to back a $15 minimum wage in the platform because she didn't want to turn off too many of the upper middle class Republican voters she was angling for. Then those people voted Republican anyway and she lost. You'd think the master triangulator could've triangulated a position to someone other than her immediate social group.
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Mar 6, 2017 18:47
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JeffersonClay posted:Please point to the part of the 2016 plaform that the party gave to Bernie to write that you think is relevant to haiti's minimum wage.  Are you actually butthurt that Bernie's progressive wing got a seat at the table? Don't pin this Haiti talk on me. You're the one who keeps harping about it.
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Mar 6, 2017 18:47
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It's fascinating watching people flip out on JC when he humbly asks for evidence of their claims.
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Mar 6, 2017 18:49
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Oh hey Jefferson Clay is now making the republicans.txt argument against minimum wage increases.
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Mar 6, 2017 18:52
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Nevvy Z posted:It's fascinating watching people flip out on JC when he humbly asks for evidence of their claims. It is even more fascinating to watch people react so strongly to people who are basically fairly representative of democratic party voters. I, too, wish it were not the case, but whatever echo chamber effect they have bought into coupled with a shockingly shallow understanding of poli-sci has lead to some incredibly bad/ironic analysis. It is just counterproductive, but fortunately it is just a few people on an unrepresentative forum who display tendencies of being unreliable party allies anyway.
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Mar 6, 2017 19:07
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JC was probably one of the people talking poo poo on Cornel West when Sanders put him on the platform committee.
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Mar 6, 2017 19:12
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Frijolero posted:
He also doesn't take the platform very seriously, since he's framing it as just some thing Bernie Sanders cooked up over a long weekend or something. I usually think the platform is important, for what that's worth, but reading stuff like this (along with Hillary's half-hearted advocacy of it during the lead up to the election) it's hard not to come to the conclusion that, this time, it wasn't important.
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Mar 6, 2017 19:28
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Thank you for this breakdown. Those were my thoughts exactly. He's completely delusional and it's rich that he loves deriding Bernie supporters as cultists when he's the ultimate partisan. Also, Bernie wasn't even on the platform writing committee. There were a few representatives present. It goes to show that although the DNC wanted to limit his power, the party as a whole was ready for some really good progressive policies. And there are some really great policies in there. The problem is that the party lacks the political power and courage to enact them.
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Mar 6, 2017 19:38
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archangelwar posted:people who are basically fairly representative of democratic party voters Not sure which side of this argument you're referring to here. Seems to me both are pretty well represented
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Mar 6, 2017 19:43
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Frijolero posted:Keep hearing that Russiagate is good because "it slows down" Trump. Seems like it's slowing down the opposition. The Dems have minorities in both houses of Congress, and most of Trump's actions so far (aside from cabinet nominations) have been executive action that doesn't need Congressional approval in the first place. There's nothing they can do to block the immigration orders or defend state pot laws (not that they're much interested in that one anyway). But rest assured that replacing Flynn with McMaster is going to save a whole lot of Middle Eastern civilians.
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Mar 6, 2017 20:19
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archangelwar posted:But this Team Progressive vs. Team Liberal faction split is becoming ridiculous. I have been dreaming of a progressive push for far longer than the primary candidacy of Bernie, but I am not going to let some small recent concessions fool me into believing that these gains represent the philosophical rejection of liberal tradition required to unseat the Dem Establishment. The aimless and often formless populist sentiment against government (and increasing apathy) and in favor of symbolic gestures against 'Establishment' should not be misconstrued, and solidifying a grassroots effort to create lasting philosophical shifts in the voting base will require much more than leveraging currents of dissatisfaction. Republicans have leveraged this through scapegoating and contrarianism, and while it wins elections, it has left them fractured and adrift... I fear what will come of these wins, as the destructive potential is huge, but I don't wish for another party to follow this path. I agree with this assessment. I think there is plenty of work to be done. But also, there is and has been plenty of work being done.
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Mar 6, 2017 20:21
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Radish posted:I'm getting the feeling from some Democrats that they think the Russian stuff is what they need to focus on and it will sink Trump. It's frustrating since absolutely no one is going to vote based on that. Independents don't really care and Republicans already consider Russia our greatest ally. It's more of the same "well the rules say that if you collude with a foreign government it will cost you exactly 6% elect-ability points and thus we deserve the next election" when the wonky political rules don't matter anymore if they ever did. So just the appearance of doing something illegal absolutely did hurt Hillary, but the reaction to Trump actually committing treason will just be "meh, that's just politics, I am suddenly laser focused on policy as no electorate has ever been before." Also, oh no, I didn't know that Republicans liked Russia! Whatever will we do? Well, we could leverage their hatred for racism - wait, Republicans like racism? Can't oppose that then. But at least we have lgbt rights - they hate those? Oh poo poo! Well, there's Trump's historic unfavorable. Oh no, Republicans approve of Trump? There's no options! As for your horseshit that independents don't care, by an over two to one margin, Americans consider it a serious issue. So by your logic since no independents care and all Republicans think it's good, only 6% of Americans are independent and Democrats are 63% or the population. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/03/06/usa-today-poll-americans-support-independent-investigation-russia/98795364/ Fulchrum fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 20:23
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Fulchrum posted:
Wait is fulchrum like doing a parody of himself now?
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Mar 6, 2017 20:33
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Crowsbeak posted:Wait is fulchrum like doing a parody of himself now? I'm not the one who cares desperately enough what Nazis want me to think that I check Breitbart constantly to see what Nazi propaganda I need to be spewing everywhere.
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Mar 6, 2017 20:41
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Fulchrum posted:I'm not the one who cares desperately enough what Nazis want me to think that I check Breitbart constantly to see what Nazi propaganda I need to be spewing everywhere. You're the one who keeps making Breitbart talking points about Iran, and Keith Ellison. Plus you hate the minimum wage.
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Mar 6, 2017 20:51
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Fulchrum posted:So just the appearance of doing something illegal absolutely did hurt Hillary Hillary literally had an unauthorized email server. It wasn't made up. It wasn't an appearance of wrongdoing, she admitted it was bad and apologized. Trump's "treason" on the other hand, hasn't been proven yet. And it looks like it won't be proven anytime soon, if at all. For the record: I really dislike engaging with you and I don't understand how you haven't been probated or banned.
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Mar 6, 2017 20:55
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Crowsbeak posted:You're the one who keeps making Breitbart talking points about Iran, and Keith Ellison. Plus you hate the minimum wage. I loving called that you would be enough of a brain dead cretin to try and remove all context from those, so I deliberately put the context right there where you couldn't miss it. That you missed it anyway says you're either the most brain dead piece of crap on the planet, meaning you are definitely a Breitbart reader, or you're the slimiest sleaze st most disingenuous worm ever, meaning you're a Breitbart writer. So do you poo poo, or eat, nazi propaganda? Frijolero posted:Hillary literally had an unauthorized email server. It wasn't made up. It wasn't an appearance of wrongdoing, she admitted it was bad and apologized. Well for the record you're the second worst of Breitbart's useful idiots these boards have vomited up. Fulchrum fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 21:15
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Yeah a whole lot of people called you out for wanting war with Iran.
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Mar 6, 2017 21:21
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Yeah I can only speak for myself but the idea that we're all reading Breitbart and parroting the talking points here is pretty laughable. I never read Breitbart, like at all. Someone posted some of their poo poo on my FB feed a couple times so I checked it out and it made my head hurt it's so stupid. I think I have it blocked now, actually. They hate Hillary, and they'll make up poo poo about her, and every once in a while I guess they probably have something there with a grain of truth? This is going back to what I was saying earlier - Fulchrum/deak is so desperate to maintain the purity of his hatred for Trump and the rest of the hard right, that he'll automatically take the opposite stance of whatever they say. This turns out to be the correct course of action most of the time, but even so, taking that attitude makes you incredibly easy to manipulate. Like, I do agree that Trump or Breitbart saying a thing, is evidence that the thing is false. It's just not ironclad reliable 100% of the time, Fulchrum. Sometimes even the biggest idiot or most duplicitous bastard is right about something. Except for you deak - you're the broken clock that somehow manages to never be right, not even just twice a day.
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Mar 6, 2017 21:27
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Crowsbeak posted:Yeah a whole lot of people called you out for wanting war with Iran. Leaving aside that this is you admitting that you knew the context of every other statement and wanted to ignore it anyway (So you're a Breitbart writer then. Guess that's why you decided to defend pedophilia), yes, a lot of posters are either brain dead in that they can't understand what a hypothetical situation is, or brain dead in that they believe Iran is going to completely ignore the security council and try to obtain a nuke, and yet still be the plucky little victim just protecting themselves.
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Mar 6, 2017 21:28
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This "brietbart" thing you're trying to do is not gonna catch on.
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Mar 6, 2017 21:30
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Fulchrum posted:Well for the record you're the second worst of Breitbart's useful idiots these boards have vomited up. I voted for Clinton and I have never read Breitbart. Someone please report this fool already.
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Mar 6, 2017 21:31
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Kilroy posted:Yeah I can only speak for myself but the idea that we're all reading Breitbart and parroting the talking points here is pretty laughable. I never read Breitbart, like at all. Someone posted some of their poo poo on my FB feed a couple times so I checked it out and it made my head hurt it's so stupid. I think I have it blocked now, actually. The thing you said only works if dumb person agrees with smart person. Smart person wrong and dumb person right does not happen and is not what you said. What you said is only in make believe. You thinking dumb person right and smart person wrong cause dumb person agree with you makes you dumb. A broken clock is right twice a day. When a broken clock and the atomic clock are saying different things, THE BROKEN CLOCK IS WRONG YOU IMPOSSIBLY DENSE poo poo! This is the exact same loving reasoning that mother fuckers use to try to deny climate change!
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Mar 6, 2017 21:34
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Who is the atomic clock in this scenario?
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Mar 6, 2017 21:36
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Fulchrum posted:I know that your brain has very little power to it, so I'll use small words here.
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Mar 6, 2017 21:39
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Frijolero posted:Someone please report this fool already.
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Mar 6, 2017 21:40
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Kilroy posted:I reported him when he claimed in the last thread that all white people are subhuman filth, and nothing happened. I don't think he's going anywhere. They took one look at your posts and agreed with me.
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Mar 6, 2017 21:41
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Fulchrum posted:They took one look at your posts and agreed with me. 
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Mar 6, 2017 21:54
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I will now summarize a Fulchrum post. "YOU"RE A BREITBART READER FOR NOT SUPPORTING HILLARY A HUNDRED PERCENT, ALSO YOU'RE A STUPID POOPY PANTS. "
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Mar 6, 2017 21:55
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Kilroy posted:Doubling down on your racism, I see. Nice work So you're still trying to claim you're not a useful idiot while crying about racism against whites?
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Mar 6, 2017 21:57
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