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OwlFancier posted:There is some debate as to why this is in the Christianity thread and I believe there is an argument that liberal churches have also liberalized the practice of faith, and that the lack of adherence to liturgical tradition and churchgoing as an integral part of practice, does not satisfy the spiritual desires of many people, which is why you go to church, after all. The majority of people go to church because they've been brainwashed to do so since birth.
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Apr 19, 2017 06:32
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silence_kit posted:I get the impression that many posters in this thread treat a person's religious belief as a moral failing of that person. It seriously bothers posters here even if it were to have no effect on themselves or the rest of society. Personally, as an atheist, I view it more as weakness or slight mental illness than a moral failing. Like I said, the majority of religious believers have been brainwashed to follow their religion blindly since birth. It's extremely hard to overcome that conditioning especially if you're surrounded by others with similar beliefs. I don't particularly have a problem with the spiritual aspect of religion, even though I disagree with it. I have a problem with the fact that religion has been used as a means of controlling the masses for thousands of years and used as justification for countless horrendous acts, wars and abuses of power. It's 2017 and the vast majority of the world still believes in magic (OK, "miracles", same thing), spirits, demons, angels, gods, etc... The same people laugh at the silly religions of the ancient Greeks and Romans, yet the only reason they perceive theirs as real and totally not silly is because they were trained to do so. Regardless, I'm not hostile towards religion unless you're using the more mild definition "opposed", but I am hostile towards religion used as a means of control or used as an excuse for inhumane acts or war. Kinda like the right has been pushing since 9/11 and our current President has been working on taking that to a new level with his Muslim bans and anti-Muslim rhetoric.
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Apr 19, 2017 18:37
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The leading factors for what religion you believe in are when and where you were born, period. If there were any rationality or legitimacy behind these religions, the correlation wouldn't be anywhere near as high as it is. Take any of the Muslim hating Christians here and change their place of birth to any Muslim country and they'd be Muslim. Your faith is almost entirely attributed to the randomness of where and when you happened to be born. If you'd like to argue that it wasn't random, it was part of plan, then you're arguing that that plan also includes that 2-3 billion or more were planned to be born in a time and place where they'd belong to one of the wrong religions if your religion happens to be one that believes it's the only right religion, which by population is the majority.
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Apr 19, 2017 21:44
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BrandorKP posted:A good chunk are ex-evangelicals or other right wing Christians. Adult converts to anything tend to be more... enthusiastic. I grew up mostly Southern Baptist with 2-3 years of Pentecostal in there. Let me tell you all about how to continually switch up your idiotic babble so you don't just sound like you're repeating the same 4-5 syllables and bore yourself to death while you wait for someone to be seized by the holy spirit and start talking in a language people can actually understand to pass on a message direct from God at least 2-3 times every church service. Agag, I never said religion or religious people should be ignored. I also don't believe religion or the lack thereof says much of anything about intelligence. There is tremendous pressure from pretty much everyone around you to stay within that group once you're there. The whole thing is designed to make it extremely difficult to break away once you've become a regular. Hell, most people I know have no idea I'm an atheist mostly because I don't want to see my son ostracized and that definitely would happen. We home school due to medical issues and the percentage of extremely religious people is much higher among that group. The main problem religion presents within politics is that in a lot of cases the Church pushes a political agenda and their political views get very intertwined with their religious beliefs, making it extremely difficult to make headway of any kind in a debate. It's hard enough getting someone to challenge their own political views without reinforcing those with religion. My typical approach is to ask sincerely why someone believes the way they do and to point out without being a jackass that my understanding of their world view seems counter to what they're supporting. For example, I asked a very religious family member why they supported Trump when he seemed basically the opposite of everything the Bible says a good person or Christian should be back before the election. Their response at the time was that Hillary was a criminal and a war monger and thought it was worth having him if that's what it took to get the Supreme Court seat even though they didn't like him. There are also Christians that see it literally as a fight between Good and the forces of Satan and there's no real discussion that can be had at that point. Long term I think the answer is education, understanding, patience and not being a jackass or douchebag to people that don't share the same viewpoint as you. As others have pointed out religion has been declining in the US fairly rapidly anyway.
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Apr 20, 2017 07:02
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A fun thing to realize about evangelicals, which makes up a huge portion of Republican voters, is that their hoped-for end game is the 2nd coming of Christ which is preceded by Armageddon taking place in the middle east. I don't think peace in the middle east is really something they're at all interested in.
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Apr 20, 2017 21:38
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Shbobdb posted:I mean . . . Is that a good way to use a screwdriver? Have you ever tried doing that? It breaks the screwdriver and hurts the ever loving poo poo out of your hands. A particularly hardy screwdriver you could probably repurpose. Creating tools from tools is what man does. Best case scenario you've damaged yourself and a nice tool to accomplish something at great effort you could have accomplished at little effort using a different tool. Most likely, you've accomplished nothing and broken your tool. No it's not a good way, yes it works for a lot of uses without breaking the screwdriver and yes this metaphor or simile kinda sucks. Just like using a screwdriver as a hammer. However, a Minidriver works as a hammer receptacle I'd imagine, and I have, often. The only damage is to her self-esteem because... well... My tool still functions, though its purpose is debatable.
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Apr 21, 2017 05:39
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Calibanibal posted:people say that the gospel is about love but why does this voluminous and ancient collection of texts talk about other facets of the human condition?? chew on that,christailures Posting one-liner troll because two-liners are hard, like Atheists and/or Christians sucking down some trollworthy substance. TRUMPCLINTON11
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Apr 21, 2017 05:45
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Agag posted:I might not go that far, but I do think there is more material in the New Testament in particular that would steer someone towards socialism than whatever kind of weird cult of violence and ethnic nationalism has gripped the right wing at the moment. The writings of contemporary Lutheran and Catholic opposition to the Nazis is instructive. All that material was referring to a specific gate in the wall named Eye of the Needle, Least of These and Socialism though.
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Apr 21, 2017 05:47
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rudatron posted:You can't beat religious zealots at their own game. 'Jesus was a socialist ' comes off as inauthentic, because the people with the moral authority to decide what jesus was or was not, are generally hostile to socialism, or even jesus' stated beliefs on income inequality. I'll let religions know tomorrow morning and all these problems will be over. High fives everyone!  
RandomBlue fucked around with this message at 06:49 on Apr 22, 2017 |
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Apr 22, 2017 06:47
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Whoops, dp.
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Apr 22, 2017 06:48
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RasperFat posted:The Civil Rights movement was a lot more secular than you think. MLK called creationism intellectually soft, and spent far far more time talking up communism than he did God. Are you perhaps talking about the Reverend Martin Luther King Jr.?
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Apr 22, 2017 19:29
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Agag posted:The majority of Christians aren't creationists, and anyway I would use MLK as an example of the effective fusion of leftist politics and Christian belief. This article (and other sources) disagree with your claim: http://www.gallup.com/poll/170822/believe-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx Unless you mean YEC, then I'd agree with you. According to those polls ~42% of Americans believe in creationism. Considering ~71% of the US identified as Christian in 2014 that indicates the majority of Christians believe in Creationism.
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Apr 22, 2017 20:03
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Agag posted:lol that's wild. I guess I was ignoring the rank and file like a true elitist lib. I think the majority would say they agree with both of those things, but what they actually do is entirely different. Of course we can't let people starve! Hey, stop sending all that international aid over there and stop pampering those welfare queens!!! You definitely shouldn't be throwing toxic waste in rivers! Shut down that money grubbing EPA and all those lieberal scientists with their global warming BS!
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Apr 22, 2017 20:11
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Agag posted:We start by getting rid of the chemtrails... My point was that the right has loving mastered cognitive dissonance, as this last election has shown. Really it's just an extension of how religious beliefs work, reality is what you chose it to be. This is a group of people that would laugh and shake their heads if you asked if magic was real but then get angry when you ask how miracles, angels and demons are different from magic. e: Case in point: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/855859245023211520 RandomBlue fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Apr 22, 2017 |
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Apr 22, 2017 20:16
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Agag posted:I'm with you that cognitive dissonance is the norm, but it goes beyond religion to the way most people process information. Hillary dead-enders are proof enough of that, or all these Putin-stole-the-election people waiting for a magical do-over. That's why I mention chemtrails, some classic non-denominational bullshit. I don't know, I don't think anyone does, which is why religion has been with us for thousands of years. Calm, rational debate without trying to score points is probably the best way to eventually sway a few of them. Most of the time I see atheists debating with religious people they spend more time trying to score points and "win" than actually trying to convince the other side of their views.
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Apr 22, 2017 20:28
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Agag posted:I see what you are trying to say, but this also seems a bit like Sorkinism. "We are the rational adults, we just need to explain it to the people who aren't." Hasn't been working too well. Actually I was describing how two people generally discuss differing viewpoints like rational people, on both sides. You're the one throwing in disparagement/patronizing of the other side. I do think their religious views are irrational, as in "not based in reason or logic", but treating them like children, which is basically what you were saying, won't help in opening their eyes. Christianity, specifically, has many many defenses built into it and hammered into their followers. I was taught that the Devil knows scripture as well as any Christian and will twist it's wording to use it against you. The bible outright states that one of the worst things anyone can do is cause someone else to lose faith: "It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble." etc... etc... So basically anyone arguing against the religion is just the Devil attacking your faith and of course the things they say make sense because the Devil is a trickster yada yada yada. Anyone have good sources on methods used to counter brainwashing or help rehabilitate cult members, etc.. besides the obvious separation from other cult members? Really the only difference between organized religion and cults are basically the number of followers and society's view of them.
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Apr 23, 2017 01:43
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Agag posted:Except this sounds just a little bit condescending...... Well I'm not trying to debate your religion or lack thereof with you and it's obviously something I wouldn't say or state outright in such a discussion.
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Apr 23, 2017 02:32
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Agag posted:Don't assume I'm religious. My point is that you said you didn't want to talk down to people, and then said that the group I'm talking about speaking to politically on their own terms are really a bunch of brainwashed cult members. I was actually assuming you were agnostic or atheist but I have no idea, we've been discussing HOW to discuss/change religious views, I thought... My view is that the majority of religious believers are brainwashed since birth is something I've stated multiple times in this thread and I don't see it as condescending because they were basically given no choice in the matter. That's why I was religious the first 20 or so years of my life. It's why most people are religious. The majority of religious people were born into religion and something like 83-89% of people never change from the religion they were born into, I forget the exact stat. The cult thing is new but I brought it up because there isn't much difference, by definition, between them and anti-cult tactics might be something to look into for tactics to use in order to help change people's views. cult: "a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister." or "a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object" So basically exactly what I said. The difference between a cult and a religion is the size and acceptance by society. RandomBlue fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Apr 23, 2017 |
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Apr 23, 2017 02:49
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BrandorKP posted:Most of the problem is American protestants, outside of much of that tradition and who are more American than Christian. Really wish American protestants hadn't done that whole Inquisition or Crusades thing.
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Apr 23, 2017 20:07
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RasperFat posted:Oh I'm not defending those assholes. Earlier in the thread I supported taxing churches that directly endorse politicians or parties. If they want to run their scams and take half million dollar salaries and be pulpits from the pew they can be taxed like the propaganda businesses they are instead of the charities they pretend to be. Yeah, but that's still a large portion of the religious (especially Christianity) in America. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/how-the-faithful-voted-a-preliminary-2016-analysis/  
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Jun 3, 2017 02:20
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