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Fiction posted:It's like saying Dilma and Lula are bad because of Petrobras. Well, yes, but their opponents who stand to gain from their absence are ruthless privatizers who will cut social services while being just as corrupt. Lula's good
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Mar 6, 2017 18:48
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Fiction posted:Chavez stood up to us and we (well, our capitalists) did everything in our power to bring him down, drat the humanitarian consequences. Until the US's stranglehold on global politics and economy loosens further, I'll have a hard time criticizing anyone resisting our efforts for not doing a good enough job at it. No actually it's pretty easy. You can say things like "I think some his rhetoric was right, but in practice he operated as a kleptocrat and an oligarch, and that is exceptionally bad whether it's the US doing the kleptoing or a tin pot would be dictator" GlyphGryph has issued a correction as of 18:57 on Mar 6, 2017 |
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Mar 6, 2017 18:49
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Hmm this opposition figure to Soviet meddling in Afghanistan who we threw our weight behind in the 80s caused a major increase in far-right religious extremism in the long run? This proves that US meddling is actually good because
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Mar 6, 2017 18:49
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Fiction posted:bin laden was financed by us, dumbass How is that remotely relevant? Also, not during the part where he was fighting us, lmao.
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Mar 6, 2017 18:50
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Fiction posted:Hmm this opposition figure to Soviet meddling in Afghanistan who we threw our weight behind in the 80s caused a major increase in far-right religious extremism in the long run? This proves that US meddling is actually good because What the gently caress does this have to do with anything? No one, absolutely no one, is arguing that US meddling is actually good, only that the US meddles against bad people as well as good people. (Because duh, there is no solidarity among the evil and power hungry, only utility)
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Mar 6, 2017 18:51
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GlyphGryph posted:No actually it's pretty easy. All this does is give ammo to those who want to continue the imperial project- "see, even leftists don't like him!" This religious extremist faction that we created because we invaded the guy who we had been using as a cudgel in the ME...must mean that the US meddling in other countries' affairs is a good thing.
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Mar 6, 2017 18:51
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GlyphGryph posted:What the gently caress does this have to do with anything? People will absolutely argue that US meddling is actually good. See any pre-election thread where Libya gets brought up.
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Mar 6, 2017 18:52
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Fiction posted:This religious extremist faction that we created because we invaded the guy who we had been using as a cudgel in the ME...must mean that the US meddling in other countries' affairs is a good thing. No one disagrees with US meddling being bad. What the gently caress does this have to do with anything relating to Chavez being good/bad
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Mar 6, 2017 18:53
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I'm not sure why people who do not support chavez have to defend neoliberalism here. I don't think anybody here has expressed that opinion. Chavez is an alternative, not -the- alternative.
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Mar 6, 2017 18:53
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Fiction posted:People will absolutely argue that US meddling is actually good. See any pre-election thread where Libya gets brought up. No one is doing it in this thread. It is unrelated to what this thread is actually about, unless you tie it together somehow, which you have't. You're intentionally engaging in diversionary tactics to squash criticism and discussion. It's pretty uncool.
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Mar 6, 2017 18:54
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GlyphGryph posted:No one is doing it in this thread. It is unrelated to what this thread is actually about, unless you tie it together somehow, which you have't. those posts were arguing against a hilarious strawman someone else set up. i don't really have all that much else to say here.
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Mar 6, 2017 18:55
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Fiction posted:All this does is give ammo to those who want to continue the imperial project- "see, even leftists don't like him!" Literally repurposing liberal logic from the election as to why Bernie running against Hillary is bad, fuckin' lmao.
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Mar 6, 2017 18:55
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Fiction posted:those posts were arguing against a hilarious strawman someone else set up. i don't really have all that much else to say here. Someone delivered an on point criticism of your arguments central premise, and you responded by belching out a string of non sequiters.
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Mar 6, 2017 18:56
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Plutonis posted:He honestly did as good as an anti-revolutionary job as he could he certainly did Also what the gently caress are you talk wrt to colombia you racist gently caress
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Mar 6, 2017 18:56
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GlyphGryph posted:No actually it's pretty easy. Socialism is cool but I'm not gonna distribute the money to practice it sounds about right for Chavez.
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Mar 6, 2017 18:57
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GlyphGryph posted:Someone delivered an on point criticism of your arguments central premise, and you responded by belching out a string of non sequiters. His "on-point criticism" suggested that because I think anti-imperialism is good, I must also support...puppets of US imperialism.
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Mar 6, 2017 19:00
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Fiction posted:His "on-point criticism" suggested that because I think anti-imperialism is good, I must also support...puppets of US imperialism. You are now seriously arguing that ISIS are puppets of US imperialism and that Bin Laden as acting as a puppet during 9/11? I mean, that seems pretty crazy, but that's the only way I can interpret this comment.
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Mar 6, 2017 19:02
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all the evidence you need that Chavez was bad is that all of his supporters are living in the first world and are largely white as gently caress whereas everyone who had to live under him, regardless of their socioeconomic status, sees him as a demon and celebrated when he died. it's good to stand up to US imperialism but not everyone who stands up to us imperialism is good. it's also good to work at a suicide hotline but that doesn't mean we have to praise and celebrate Ted Bundy. the us certainly didn't like him and probably tried to take him down but the CIA wasn't forcing him to pay extravagant salaries for no work to his buddies or use the apparatus of state to protect narco traffickers.
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Mar 6, 2017 19:03
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:all the evidence you need that Chavez was bad is that all of his supporters are living in the first world and are largely white as gently caress whereas everyone who had to live under him, regardless of their socioeconomic status, sees him as a demon and celebrated when he died. thats not quite true. Loyal party members of all stripes thought he was good, because he rewarded them while making everyone else suffer. A (steadily shrinking) portion of the country still supports Maduro, after all!
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Mar 6, 2017 19:04
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Hot take: The FBI is not actually good, even though they helped advance the cause of anti-racism by taking action against the KKK, and their doing so doesn't relieve them of responsibility for all the bad stuff they did elsewhere. So, too, with Chavez.
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Mar 6, 2017 19:05
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actually chavez was v. good
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Mar 6, 2017 19:06
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OP I agree that Chavez was very bad and the PSUV is a joke, but I think you're kinda understating how strong a role the US and the rich Venezuelan right wing had in the downward spiral of the country. Before Chavez it was the right wing elites who were bleeding the country dry. I think the PSUV should be overthrown and there should be a massive purge of government officials, but I have no illusions of what comes after being much better 
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Mar 6, 2017 19:11
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The CIA released boll weevils to disrupt Venezuelan socialism. The operation was extremely successful, because the boll weevils received an intense six-week training course at Langley
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Mar 6, 2017 19:11
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I'd say that the fact that other leaders in the Pink Tide of Latin America have gotten more done then Chavez and haven't seen their nations turned into hell holes suggest that Chavez more then anything was a failure.
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Mar 6, 2017 19:12
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Fiction posted:His "on-point criticism" suggested that because I think anti-imperialism is good, I must also support...puppets of US imperialism. what the gently caress have you been posting in this thread jfc chavez was bad
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Mar 6, 2017 19:16
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Turns out relying on oil to pay for your walfare state is a bad idea. Better than letting the rich pocket that money though. Either way Venezula was in for a bad time when the price of oil crashed.
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Mar 6, 2017 19:17
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Jose posted:what the gently caress have you been posting in this thread jfc wrong!
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Mar 6, 2017 19:17
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Scent of Worf posted:OP I agree that Chavez was very bad and the PSUV is a joke, but I think you're kinda understating how strong a role the US and the rich Venezuelan right wing had in the downward spiral of the country. Before Chavez it was the right wing elites who were bleeding the country dry. Chavez is bad, but also other people are bad. Many people are bad. The right wing regime wasn't as bad as Maduro's is right now, but I absolutely believe many of them are perfectly happy seeing and having been partly responsible for this outcome. Chavez was wildly popular and incredibly powerful, however, and still shoulders the bulk of the blame. Both sides seem the type to prefer burning the country to the ground and ruling the ashes than to see themselves out of power. Chavez's team just managed to be way more incompetent at it somehow. Some of the opposition figures seem genuinely good but they are all in jail and considering how poo poo the MUD is and how everyone else capable of fixing things is fleeing the country, I have no faith in things getting better either. The problem's Chavez created seem like they will persist for a long time.
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Mar 6, 2017 19:18
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On the one hand we have an inept corrupt windbag who wasted billions of petrodollars instead of making the tiniest effort towards diversification and long term security, who handed over power to an inept thug and corrupt bus driver who's such a great socialist that his party fought to the death to remain patron and landlord to thousands of people crying out for housing redistribution; both of whom despite their shittiness repeatedly won democratic elections, made measurable impacts against poverty and illiteracy On the other we have some feckless CIA pencil necks who botched at least one coup attempt, phalanxed by a media apparatus that is so brutally biased against PSUV they just make stuff up instead of reporting the already-horrible truth. The truth . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . is in the middle
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Mar 6, 2017 19:19
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tfw you have a poo poo and don't have toilet paper or running water
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Mar 6, 2017 19:20
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If the Democrats are bad, then the Republicans, by definition, must be good. Really when you think about it, Trump is great. Since, you know, he opposed the capitalist, imperialist establishment. Even if it was only because he wanted to be in charge of his own more tyrannical capitalist empire.
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Mar 6, 2017 19:21
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Tareck El Aissami's presidency will be fully sick, I can't wait.
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Mar 6, 2017 19:25
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Fat Lowtax posted:Tareck El Aissami's presidency will be fully sick, I can't wait. Imagining how Republican hawks would react to a leftist Venezuelan head of state with an Arab name
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Mar 6, 2017 19:30
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Chavez, Hugo is p. bad
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Mar 6, 2017 19:30
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pretty hosed up that a failed capitalist state is somehow socialist
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Mar 6, 2017 19:35
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GlyphGryph posted:Chavez is bad, but also other people are bad. Many people are bad. Important to note that Venezuela, unlike most Latin American countries, did not have a genocidal right wing dictatorship during the Cold War (they did have a dictator til the 50s though). It was a fairly prosperous two party democracy until after oil prices went down in the 80s, when everything went to poo poo. Sounds familiar!
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Mar 6, 2017 19:40
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the king of spain telling him to stfu was cool
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Mar 6, 2017 19:40
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Fiction posted:Jeb! stood up to us and we (well, our capitalists) did everything in our power to bring him down, drat the humanitarian consequences. Until the US's stranglehold on the global guacamole supply loosens further, I'll have a hard time criticizing anyone resisting our efforts for not doing a good enough job at it.
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Mar 6, 2017 19:57
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GlyphGryph posted:And...? It's possible to support bad people who are better than their alternatives while fully admitting they are bad people. There's a reason I voted for Hillary in the general, after all, and it's not because "Trump is bad, therefore Hillary is actually really good!" Observers pretty much universally agreed that Venezuelan elections were free and fair whereas Russian ones do not get the same universal recognition (although let's be honest: Putin would've won them anyway). Again though, not like there aren't democrats with authoritarian tendencies. See: Trump, Erdogan, etc.
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Mar 6, 2017 20:02
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GlyphGryph posted:If the Democrats are bad, then the Republicans, by definition, must be good. so Accelerationists made Venezuela great again?
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Mar 6, 2017 20:09
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