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RagnarokAngel
Oct 5, 2006

Black Magic Extraordinaire
The other Abrahamic religions, Christianity and Islam have gotten their own megathreads so I thought, hey, let's go back to the source. First let's get this out of the way though:
:siren:Do not talk about the Israel and Palestine conflict here:siren:
Look, I get it, it's a touchy subject, and Jews are irrevocably intertwined with Israel, whether they like it or not. Some support the government, some support the right to exist but don't like how it's handled, and some couldn't care less what happens to Israel. Don't assume Jews inherently love Israel for all its fault, and there's tons of threads that discuss this topic. While discussion of Israel is inevitable, let's not derail this thread for 15 pages about it mmkay?

So what is Judaism?
Judaism is the religion of ancient Israel and Judah. Earliest records record it around 9th century BCE, though naturally it probably existed long before that. Judaism is, at its core, the history of the Jewish people from the first man, to the Israelite's exile into Egypt, to slaves under the Pharaoh, until finally returning home when Moses liberated them. In short the Old Testament from Christian tradition, although Christianity stapled a few books onto the ending to make it more relevant.

Today, Judaism remains a fringe religion, about .2% of the world population, with the vast majority living in either the United States or Israel. Despite that, Jewish people have made a significant impact on the world in arts, sciences and literature.

Who is a Jew?
You've probably heard someone say before "I'm a quarter Jewish" and wondered how can someone be a quarter of a religion? Well Jews are a unique hybrid of culture, ethnicity and religion that predates modern classifications so a few different people count as jews:

Born to a Jewish mother- Judaism is matrilineal. The exact reason has never been fully substantiated but the dominating thought is that you almost always know who the mother is, but can't always be sure who the father of a child is. So if someone's mom's mom was Jewish, they are in fact a quarter Jewish (though recognized as a "full" Jew by all Jewish sects). Even converts to other religions do not lose their Jewish status in the eyes of most Jewish sects.

Any grandparent was Jewish- This is a specific edge case worth describing because according to Israel's law of return, which guarantees citizenship to all Jews who come to Israel, anyone with a Jewish grandparent is considered Jewish, even if that lineage is patrilineal. This is used specifically because it was the criteria used by the Nazis to determine who to exterminate during the holocaust.

Converts- Naturally, converts to Judaism are Jewish. In Rabbinical teachings a convert (Sometimes called "Jew by choice" is considered just as Jewish as some born into it (Sometimes called "Jew by birth" or "Jew by chance") and it is improper to remind them of their heritage before becoming Jewish. The rules for conversion are based off ancient rules for permitting outsiders into Israel, and generally involves a year of study followed by circumcision (if male) and then an immersion in the mikvah (Which is a precursor to the Christian baptism, and probably existed in some other form even before that).

What is the Torah? Tanakh? Midrash?
This is where things get complex. The original book, that big rear end scroll you usually see, is the Torah. It consists of the 5 original books of what some call the Old Testament: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. As previously mentioned this book goes from the origin of the universe according to Jewish tradition, to the creation of the land of Israel, to exile in Egypt, to the return and establishment of the land of Israel and Judah.

After this comes the Nevi'im, generally not read during the services but can be used in sermons or what have you, is the story of the re-established Israel from the Prophet Joshua, up until Babylonian captivity, where Babylon vassalized Israel. Finally, the Ketuvim comes after which a series of shorter stories, song and poetry. The Torah, Nevi'im and Ketuvim combined are called the Tanakh.

Once the stories are over, here comes the fun stuff, rabbinical interpretation! The Midrash is a collection of books which contains interpretations of the Tanakh, although dating them is difficult most of them run from 10 BCE up until 1200 CE. Many of them aren't even in Hebrew, but in Aramaic. To most strains of Judaism, the Midrash is absolutely just as important to practicing Judaism as the Torah itself.

What are the different sects of Judaism?
I'm going to divide these into 2 different varities:

Rabbinical Judaism
This is the majority of Jews, Rabbinical Judaism is the idea that the Tanakh alone is not enough to properly practice Judaism, but that the interpretations of the Midrash are necessary as well. Namely because many modern conveniences do not exist in the Bible, and many concepts in the Bible would only make sense to ancient Israelites, and not to modern day people:

Orthodox- The original. Up until the 19th century Orthodox was more or less the only Judaism, before offshoots began to occur. Generally speaking, Orthodox Jews accept the Torah and Midrash up until the 1200s, and that's it. They follow God's law as they fell it was written and believe that the Tanakh and Midrash are from God's will and cannot be changed. There are some exceptions such as the Modern orthodox movement which tries to make some concessions, like allowing same-sex marriage. The ultra-Orthodox Hassidic Jews are considered part of this movement.

Reform-Reform Judaism is the most common form of Judaism in the US, also called Liberal or Progressive Judaism in other parts of the world. Reform Judaism was formed in the 19th century in Germany, as a result of the Enlightenment, Jews were more permitted to participate in mainstream Christian society. However, some felt that the Orthodox interpretation of laws held back their ability to meaningfully participate, so reform Judaism was born. In short, Reform Judaism accepts the previous tenants of Orthodox Judaism, but considers it each individual Jew's decision what laws they will and will not follow. Reform Judaism focuses on the moral law of the Torah and is one of the more progressive movements, being the first sect of Judaism to accept Same-sex marriage and female Rabbis.

Conservative Judaism- Conservative Judaism spawned in the US in response to Reform Judaism, feeling that the idea of moving forward from the Orthodox movement was necessary, but that reform had taken things too far. Conservative attempts to swing the pendulum back the other way by maintaining the original liturgy of the Orthodox movement, and being more selective about which laws can be ignored in a modern context. Conservative is generally a few years behind reform and their exact beliefs are a bit murky sometimes, they do allow female Rabbis, but whether same-sex marriage is permitted depends on the congregation.

There are many, many minor offshots of rabbinical Judaism as well such as reconstructionist, but these are the "big 3".

Non-Rabbinical Judaism
These groups are small edge cases but somewhat fascinating in their own right.
Karaite Judaism- Mostly limited to Israel, Karaite's do not agree with the Midrash and accept the Tanakh as-is, saying as God's will it cannot be changed. In essence they're Judaism's version of Christian fundamentalists.
Samaritans- Not really Jews per se but an ethnic group that has the same Torah as the Jews. They do not accept Rabbinical law as they consider themselves their own people. They do not accept converts and number less than a thousand, most in Israel.
Beta Israel- an interesting offshoot of Ethiopian Jews who formed their own culture distinct from much of the rest of Judaism. Israel considers them true Jews and will grant them citizenship.

Enjoy the thread!
I hope this was informative and can foster some discussion on Judaism but cultural and religious. As stated above, let's keep I/P discussion to a minimum because it doesn't end well and because it's still a topic worth discussion, there are threads in D&D for it. So please, go there if you have some insightful thought! https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3754814

If people bring up interesting topics of discussion I'll add them to the op.

RagnarokAngel fucked around with this message at 12:00 on Mar 13, 2017

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Animal-Mother
Feb 14, 2012

RABBIT RABBIT
RABBIT RABBIT
Do you know anybody who got circumcised as an adult? That's... quite a commitment.

edit for a more thoughtful question: What's a typical synagogue service like? Singing, preaching?

Animal-Mother fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Mar 13, 2017

RagnarokAngel
Oct 5, 2006

Black Magic Extraordinaire
It definitely happens, though painkillers are naturally involved. Alternatively, Reform Judaism does not require circumcision.

Services are going to vary depending on the sect. In Orthodox services, men and women are seperated and instruments are actually not allowed, generally, because they feel that until the third temple comes back they shouldn't celebrate in services. Services are all in hebrew, and are very long the but the jist is there's Torah readings and an Amidah, which is basically a long prayer asking for forgiveness and to keep them on the straight and narrow.

Conservative is generally the same but will make some concessions for instruments and singing, and it's usually not gender segregated.

Reform is generally whatever the congregation agrees upon, and will use a lot of english, but it's hard to make sweeping generalizations because theyre often very different.

Cowslips Warren
Oct 29, 2005

What use had they for tricks and cunning, living in the enemy's warren and paying his price?

Grimey Drawer
Not to debate on Israel, but it seems odd that the PM (or President? I can never remember precisely) seems pretty chummy with Trump, and the latter has a lot of anti-Semitic everything.

Has there been a lot of anxiety/worry/outright terror since the election?

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010



What is your opinion on t he Messianic aka Jews for Jesus movement? I recently researched it a bit and found it intriguing. It's not as monolithic or minor as I thought and is full of a huge assortment of disconnected sects that don't agree on a lot of things. But what I guess I'm asking is, do you brush them off as bad Christians and bad Jews? Some Jewish people seem very hostile to them.

I notice you call him "God." Why do some Jews I read type it as G-d? I know it is forbidden to say His Name but God isn't his name, right?

What would you suggest to someone interested in converting? Raised Christian here but never felt satisfied with some of its doctrines, like Hell. I hear this is a somewhat touchy subject for Jewish scholars/theologians but you guys definitely don't have Devil who is out there trying to make us suffer for all eternity. Conservative has always sounded the most appealing to me as it combines more modern societal values with a spiritual and rule-bound life.

NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 08:24 on Mar 13, 2017

RagnarokAngel
Oct 5, 2006

Black Magic Extraordinaire

NikkolasKing posted:

What is your opinion on t he Messianic aka Jews for Jesus movement? I recently researched it a bit and found it intriguing. It's not as monolithic or minor as I thought and is full of a huge assortment of disconnected sects that don't agree on a lot of things. But what I guess I'm asking is, do you brush them off as bad Christians and bad Jews? Some Jewish people seem very hostile to them.
Very mixed. I don't inherently see a problem with the philosophy of using Jewish tradition in a Christian church. I wouldn't really call them Jews though. Where my ire comes from is that some will try and use it as a "Gateway" to get Jews to come to Christianity, though I can't say how well that works, seems it'd be pretty easy to spot the motive there.

quote:

I notice you call him "God." Why do some Jews I read type it as G-d? I know it is forbidden to say His Name but God isn't his name, right?
There's a couple layers to that, the reason some Jews will say G-d is it's the logical conclusion to the idea that you're not supposed to say His name in a disrespectful way, which leads some to say anything but prayer is disrespectful use of His name. Some care, some don't. I'm actually trying to be better about it but sometimes I forget, I'm not going to change it now.

as for His Name that's complicated, the Bible has dozens of names for Him based on different aspects of Him. The most common you'll hear is Adonai or Hashem. You sometimes hear YHWH but few Jews are actually going to use that. YHWH was a name meant to only be used by the high priests, in private, on Yom Kippur. We have no idea what the vowels even are because ancient Hebrew writing doesn't HAVE vowels, people just "knew" what the vowels were.

Adonai is the more common name but some Orthodox still think it's disrespectful to use it outside of prayer so they'll use Hashem which literally just means "His Name"

quote:

What would you suggest to someone interested in converting? Raised Christian here but never felt satisfied with some of its doctrines, like Hell. I hear this is a somewhat touchy subject for Jewish scholars/theologians but you guys definitely don't have Devil who is out there trying to make us suffer for all eternity. Conservative has always sounded the most appealing to me as it combines more modern societal values with a spiritual and rule-bound life.

I'm a conservative Jew and conservative owns. It gets a lot of flack for being a "middle ground" but I think preserving the ancient practices is super important, while still modernizing the faith at the same time. It's usually a few years behind reform in social advancement (e.g. women rabbis and gay clergy) and I wish it wasn't but you take what you can get.

As for converting the best answer is just go to a service. Even though temples have memberships, you're allowed to just show up and no one will stop you. Afterwards talk to the Rabbi and they can help you out.

RagnarokAngel fucked around with this message at 09:04 on Mar 13, 2017

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010



RagnarokAngel posted:

Very mixed. I don't inherently see a problem with the philosophy of using Jewish tradition in a Christian church. I wouldn't really call them Jews though. Where my ire comes from is that some will try and use it as a "Gateway" to get Jews to come to Christianity, though I can't say how well that works, seems it'd be pretty easy to spot the motive there.

There's a couple layers to that, the reason some Jews will say G-d is it's the logical conclusion to the idea that you're not supposed to say His name in a disrespectful way, which leads some to say anything but prayer is disrespectful use of His name. Some care, some don't. I'm actually trying to be better about it but sometimes I forget, I'm not going to change it now.

as for His Name that's complicated, the Bible has dozens of names for Him based on different aspects of Him. The most common you'll hear is Adonai or Hashem. You sometimes hear YHWH but few Jews are actually going to use that. YHWH was a name meant to only be used by the high priests, in private, on Yom Kippur. We have no idea what the vowels even are because ancient Hebrew writing doesn't HAVE vowels, people just "knew" what the vowels were.

Adonai is the more common name but some Orthodox still think it's disrespectful to use it outside of prayer so they'll use Hashem which literally just means "His Name"


I'm a conservative Jew and conservative owns. It gets a lot of flack for being a "middle ground" but I think preserving the ancient practices is super important, while still modernizing the faith at the same time. It's usually a few years behind reform in social advancement (e.g. women rabbis and gay clergy) and I wish it wasn't but you take what you can get.

As for converting the best answer is just go to a service. Even though temples have memberships, you're allowed to just show up and no one will stop you. Afterwards talk to the Rabbi and they can help you out.

Exactly. It is precisely that middle ground that makes it appealing to me. Extremism, be it towards liberalism or conservatism, is rarely the answer.


Thank you for your prompt response. I've been really nervous about going to synagogue because I don't know a word of Hebrew. I'd be thrilled to learn but the language is so important in scripture and the commentaries that I feel like I'd appear as incredibly ignorant, even if I knew the Tanakh by heart. (which I don't. I'm going through the JPS Bible which I hope is acceptable. Christian denominations are very peculiar about their Bible translations and I have no idea how strict Jews are)

RagnarokAngel
Oct 5, 2006

Black Magic Extraordinaire
The JPS bible is just fine, and some synagogues will have transliterations present because they understand not everyone knows hebrew. However the Bible will only help you during Torah readings, most of the liturgy isn't in the bible.

Edit: The best time to go is Friday night. Shabbat is Friday from sunset until saturday at sunset. The Friday service to greet Shabbat is very short, about an hour. The saturday morning service is...intense if you're not used to it. It's a good 3-4 hours. From what I know of Christianity, Jews are a little more permissive of ducking in and out of services because its a long time to sit there straight through.

RagnarokAngel fucked around with this message at 09:32 on Mar 13, 2017

feedmegin
Jul 30, 2008

RagnarokAngel posted:

It definitely happens, though painkillers are naturally involved. Alternatively, Reform Judaism does not require circumcision.

Having been circumcised for medical reasons myself at the age of 13, I can tell you that the anaesthetic is a good thing, obviously, but it's still going to be an agonising few months of recovery. Anyone who does that for religious reasons has to be really into it, which is no doubt why ancient Judaism required it of converts (back in the days before any kind of anaesthetic and when there was a decent chance it'd kill you from infection).

RagnarokAngel
Oct 5, 2006

Black Magic Extraordinaire
Well, the reason is to mark a man as someone who is a member of the covenant of Israel. Why they didn't pick something everyone would be able to see is an age old question.

Earwicker
Jan 6, 2003

NikkolasKing posted:

you guys definitely don't have Devil who is out there trying to make us suffer for all eternity.

that's because we do it ourselves.

Cowslips Warren
Oct 29, 2005

What use had they for tricks and cunning, living in the enemy's warren and paying his price?

Grimey Drawer
I will try a non-political question this time.

Rachel seems to be a common Jewish girl name, but Leah, I've never met a single Leah that was Jewish. Is the name somewhat seen as branding someone the unfavorite, akin to the Leah and Rachel story with wedding trickery?

zakharov
Nov 30, 2002

:kimchi: Tater Love :kimchi:

Cowslips Warren posted:

I will try a non-political question this time.

Rachel seems to be a common Jewish girl name, but Leah, I've never met a single Leah that was Jewish. Is the name somewhat seen as branding someone the unfavorite, akin to the Leah and Rachel story with wedding trickery?

I've known several Jewish Leahs so I think this is selection bias.

feedmegin
Jul 30, 2008

RagnarokAngel posted:

Well, the reason is to mark a man as someone who is a member of the covenant of Israel. Why they didn't pick something everyone would be able to see is an age old question.

Sure, but socially speaking requiring men to do something very painful to their dick to join said covenant seems a pretty good way of keeping your religious group/culture exclusive and preventing it being assimilated by others surrounding it.

Edit: Babylon, 500BC:

*Gentile meets pretty Jewish girl*

Oh this :byodame: seems super hot and she's kinda into me. Maybe we should get married?

Oh, she worships this god from Judea? Ok, that's fine, I can worship him too. Gods are a dime a dozen, right?

:gonk:Wait he wants me to do WHAT before we get married? gently caress this I'm outta here:gonk:

*Pretty Jewish girl later marries a nice Jewish boy who doesn't have to worry about any of this poo poo*

feedmegin fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Mar 13, 2017

Earwicker
Jan 6, 2003

Cowslips Warren posted:

I will try a non-political question this time.

Your first question isn't really "political" but it's also not really a question about Judaism, it's just human nature. If you look at the history of anti-Semitism you will find plenty of cases of individual Jews being aligned with (or even friends with) various anti-Semites when convenient to their agenda or just for their own personal emotional reasons, but that's not unique to Judaism and anti-Semitism, you can find these sorts of relationships between people from all sorts of directly opposed groups/ideologies all throughout history, especially if you are looking at people in positions of power. in that light, without getting into the details, I think you can probably do the math and figure out a reason why someone representing the Israeli government might be willing to turn a blind eye to the bullshit coming from the current administration here.

Earwicker fucked around with this message at 14:14 on Mar 13, 2017

RagnarokAngel
Oct 5, 2006

Black Magic Extraordinaire

feedmegin posted:

Sure, but socially speaking requiring men to do something very painful to their dick to join said covenant seems a pretty good way of keeping your religious group/culture exclusive and preventing it being assimilated by others surrounding it.

Edit: Babylon, 500BC:

*Gentile meets pretty Jewish girl*

Oh this :byodame: seems super hot and she's kinda into me. Maybe we should get married?

Oh, she worships this god from Judea? Ok, that's fine, I can worship him too. Gods are a dime a dozen, right?

:gonk:Wait he wants me to do WHAT before we get married? gently caress this I'm outta here:gonk:

*Pretty Jewish girl later marries a nice Jewish boy who doesn't have to worry about any of this poo poo*

There actually is a bible story where a warlord rapes a Jewish woman but is so captivated by her beauty he demands a cultural exchange with the Israelites by trading their women. The girls father agrees because they lack the military to oppose him. However he requests the men circumcised themselves like the Israelites so their men would be the "same". Warlord is still so captivated by the girls beauty he actually agrees to this proposal.

Girls brothers wait 3 days and while the men are all in so much pain they can't even stand they destroy their city with a small token force.

The Torah is awesome is what I'm saying.

Frogfingers
Oct 10, 2012
I don't know if you know much about archaeology, but since Moses is such a central figure in Judaism, how do Jews reconcile the lack of physical remnants of slavery under the Egyptians? Is this a hot-button? Are there Israeli (or diaspora) creationists?

I also heard dig sites and the such are politically controlled (or a sectarian minefield) in Israel itself, do you know anything more about this?

RagnarokAngel
Oct 5, 2006

Black Magic Extraordinaire
Again it's another "Depends on the movement" dealie. Orthodox Jews generally believe the Torah to be accurate, though I'm sure it varies a lot in the community.

Reform and Conservative do not accept the Bible as "this literally happened" and focus more on what can be learned from those stories, instead of the literal nature of the events. Orthodox Rabbis have a lot of pull in Israel's legal system so the Orthodox view tends to dominate.

MJP
Jun 17, 2007

Are you looking at me Senpai?

Grimey Drawer

Animal-Mother posted:

Do you know anybody who got circumcised as an adult? That's... quite a commitment.

edit for a more thoughtful question: What's a typical synagogue service like? Singing, preaching?

Born and raised Reform, now nonpracticing and an atheist. Not to hijack OP's thread, just here to answer those.

My friends got married. Both converted for it. As far as I know, full circumcision as a grown adult isn't possible due to medical garbage unless it's done fully in surgical situations. My friend told me that blood was drawn, and that was sufficient. I stopped asking for details at that point.

I don't recall the exact order or schedule in a synagogue. I stopped going the second I had the option to no longer go, which was basically after I got bar mitzvah'd.

I'll be honest, I had a bunch of lousy times in Hebrew school and having to go to services. I asked my parents about it a year or two ago, and they said they were doing it mostly for my grandparents. I probably drew the short straw in Reform congregations; everyone acted like the worst kind of knuckle-rapping nun or disgruntled postal worker in Hebrew school, and bar mitzvah lessons lasted for around two years of extra work and homework. As such you can consider my comments below extremely biased and I hope that someone who's in it voluntarily, or a little more joyfully, would have a more neutral perspective. This was also in the 90s, things have hopefully changed since then.

The way I recall is that they do prayers and services, usually either only in Hebrew, in Hebrew then in English, and if you're unlucky, it's sung in Hebrew, read in Hebrew, then read again in English. If you're super duper unlucky it's the part where you have to stand, then do all this and other stuff related to whatever section of the service that it's on, and remain standing for further permutations of the same, until it's time to sit again.

Then you get to the Torah portion. You stand, the rabbi does blessings, the congregation responds, the pre-Torah reading blessing happens, the Ark is opened, the Torah is taken out and blessed, the rabbi reads from the Torah. I think it's entirely in Hebrew, but I can't remember.

Usually the synagogue's Torah has its history read at every single drat service. At least at my temple, it was. The history wasn't particularly interesting, it came from a wealthy donor family that came over in the late 1890s.

After the Torah readings are done, the post-Torah blessings happen, the Torah is put away. At some point they parade the Torah around the congregation up and down the aisles and sing a song while doing so, I forget what it was. At this point if you're observant or feeling so, you pass your prayer book down to the edge as the Torah comes by. Whoever's on the edge touches it to the Torah and passes it back, at which point you kiss the prayer book. It goes up the center aisle and both sides, in order to keep the human prayerbook bucket brigade minimal. At this point, after the roughly 30-45 minutes you've been standing, they mercifully let you sit.

After the Torah parade and put away parts, and any relevant further blessings, there's a Haftarah portion, which I think is basically a reading from other Old Testament books that are considered holy books or part of the Hebrew Bible, but not in the Torah proper. I forget if this involves ceremonies similar to the Torah or if it's just the usual sung Hebrew, spoken Hebrew, spoken English, and now you can sit down again.

Following that, the rabbi does a sermon, you stand up again to do the Kiddish blessing over the wine and the blessing over the bread, and then they do any announcements, tell you who's getting bar/bat mitzvahed that weekend if applicable, and then it's over and you shuffle into the reception hall.

At that point they'll have wine for the grown-ups and grape juice for the kids, and a cube of bread for everyone. You do another Kiddish and bread blessing and eat/drink. You socialize and stuff. My in-laws' church does coffee hour after Sunday services and they always have snacks, cake, cookies, and coffee, and I'd guess the same socializing, how-ya-doin', schmoozing, etc. happens at temple. I was too young to remember; the kids I knew from Hebrew school and I would always get together to hang out and one kid named Brett would try to sneak wine, usually successfully.

I should note at this point it's something like 7:45 and hopefully you had dinner beforehand or you're extremely cranky.

RagnarokAngel
Oct 5, 2006

Black Magic Extraordinaire

MJP posted:

Born and raised Reform, now nonpracticing and an atheist. Not to hijack OP's thread, just here to answer those.


For what it's worth I welcome all Jews to answer questions here, I'm only one side. As a practicing conservative Jew I probably give a more idealized picture than others and I'd love to give a balanced portrayal to people asking questions.

Blurred
Aug 26, 2004

WELL I WONNER WHAT IT'S LIIIIIKE TO BE A GOOD POSTER
What's the go with heaven?

RagnarokAngel
Oct 5, 2006

Black Magic Extraordinaire

Blurred posted:

What's the go with heaven?

Short answer: No clue.

Longer Answer: Mixed responses. General belief is that there is no Hell and probably a paradise but even that's not consistent. Throughout history there has been a concept of Sheol, which is akin to the Jewish Hell. However this is pretty obviously a greek influence of the underworld so it doesn't have as much standing in modern times as it did before.

Basically, Judaism is a much older religion and as such focuses a whole lot less on the afterlife and more on the material. What can we do or say to make G-d not mad at us so he doesn't give us diseases or ruin our crops? Most Jewish liturgy focuses on those sorts of things rather than the afterlife.

Munchables
Feb 8, 2015

Ask/tell me about legal cannibalism

Howdy, I'm not a practicing Jew, I wasn't raised Jewish, but my father and his mother's side of the family were, as well as my uncle. His father was a convert, but I've only met him once, so I don't know much about the convert process. My father denounced Judaism as his religion in college I believe, but ever since I was a kid we've practiced Hannukah and Pesach, so they were at least somewhat part of my life. I went to temple with my grandmother a few times in high school because I wanted to learn more about my heritage, and recently I started reading the Torah. From a mythology point of view, not to offend those practicing itt, it's a very interesting read and I definitely recommend it to anybody here. And if RAngel doesn't mind, I think it could be interesting/fun to do a few posts every once in a while discussing it?

E: also thanks a bunch for making this thread :)

MJP
Jun 17, 2007

Are you looking at me Senpai?

Grimey Drawer

Blurred posted:

What's the go with heaven?

From what I recall in Reformland, there's no Heaven per se and more so the Kingdom of Israel. The idea is that Moshiach will return and establish the Kingdom of Israel where Jews will be beside God for eternity. Whether or not that conflates with the State of Israel is more of a rabbinical question. Groups like Neuterei Karta interpret the Talmud, Torah, and other religious documents/laws to state that God denied Israel to the Jewish people until Moshiach returns, and as such the State of Israel has no right to exist, and Jews are being punished for whatever they did to piss God off.

It's interesting to learn about them but they tend to be anathema amongst most Jews, even other ultra-orthodox groups. I encourage the curious to do their own research and make their own educated stance about them, because they're the guys who Ahmedinejad and others invited as token Jews to the big Holocaust denial conference a few years back.

In the meantime, have a fun read about ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel who get drunk and dance to electronic music: http://www.npr.org/2014/03/14/290106644/israels-orthodox-ravers-are-on-a-holy-mission-to-dance

Given my personal experience with Judaism, which was singularly joyless and on or close to being in a captive audience, I'd probably have a very, VERY different experience if the staff and rabbis at my temple made having joy with Judaism a priority.

Tias
May 25, 2008

Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund
Oh hey, a jewish thread, cool!

What's the deal with kabbalah? Is there an actual system of divination or magic hidden in jewish mysticism?

I used to be into hermetic magic, and most of the hermetic orders use the kabbalistic 'tree of life', citing it as the oldest and truest form of divine magic available to us.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME
hi guys, thanks for making this thread! :hfive:

PrinceRandom
Feb 26, 2013

I've been interested in Judaism for a long time but felt too nervous to seek out services. I do know that my hometown has the oldest Hillel in the country. Also Maimonides is better than Aquinas.

CountFosco
Jan 9, 2012

Welcome back to the Liturgigoon thread, friend.

Tias posted:

Oh hey, a jewish thread, cool!

What's the deal with kabbalah? Is there an actual system of divination or magic hidden in jewish mysticism?

I used to be into hermetic magic, and most of the hermetic orders use the kabbalistic 'tree of life', citing it as the oldest and truest form of divine magic available to us.

You're really supposed to be schooled in a specific way, and a person of character and wisdom, before undertaking such studies.

Barring a way of proving this, knowledge of such is not something traditionally to be disclosed willy-nilly.

Keromaru5
Dec 28, 2012

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On another forum I used to frequent, there was an Orthodox Jewish poster with a thread just like this. I seem to remember him very much despising popular Kabbalah for bastardizing such an important part of Judaism.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME

Keromaru5 posted:

On another forum I used to frequent, there was an Orthodox Jewish poster with a thread just like this. I seem to remember him very much despising popular Kabbalah for bastardizing such an important part of Judaism.
well, popular anything is going to be dumb, my ex-roommate came from india and we used to bitch about white-people Buddhism/Hinduism together

and you've seen my response in the christianity thread about well meaning but ignorant people appropriating icons in a way that was offensive by accident

Keromaru5
Dec 28, 2012

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I had a few instances in mind, myself.

IIRC this Jewish poster very specifically hated... I want to say Yehuda Berg? But this was years ago, and that thread is long gone.

(And in searching Berg's name, I found out he ran the Kabbalah Center, and was sued for sexual assault in 2014, so yeah, it probably was him.)

Tias
May 25, 2008

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Just to be clear, I knew about the tenets and origins of judaism already, and did not mean to make light of either the faith itself or kabbala. I have a great deal of respect for divine mysticism, and would accept in a heartbeat if a rabbi would ever teach me some.

Earwicker
Jan 6, 2003

if you have serious interest in kabbalah or Jewish mysticism in general, start reading the books of Gershom Scholem and Aryeh Kaplan, their work is good, clear, accessible, and very grounded in history and scripture.

Tias
May 25, 2008

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Earwicker posted:

if you have serious interest in kabbalah or Jewish mysticism in general, start reading the books of Gershom Scholem and Aryeh Kaplan, their work is good, clear, accessible, and very grounded in history and scripture.

Cool, thanks!

Reene
Aug 26, 2005

:justpost:

I am a Buddhist but this month marks my first year working full time at a large Jewish assisted living facility. I've had very little exposure to Jewish practices and culture before so this has been kind of a crash course, as the facility is very observant of Jewish practices and is strictly kosher etc.

I started in culinary before transitioning to my current administrative position so my question is about keeping kosher. We keep two separate industrial kitchens in my facility as well as using separate silverware and dishes for serving meat or dairy. I've heard that this is both far beyond what kosher law actually calls for as well as being a relatively recent practice. Beyond kosher law itself, where did these relatively recent practices come from and why?

I can also answer some questions pertaining to how our facility runs things if anyone is interested in that. It's the only one in my state and one of the most prominent in the region AFAIK, and we provide homes and services for a lot of elderly Jewish people, many of whom were refugees from Europe or Holocaust survivors.

Earwicker
Jan 6, 2003

Reene posted:

I started in culinary before transitioning to my current administrative position so my question is about keeping kosher. We keep two separate industrial kitchens in my facility as well as using separate silverware and dishes for serving meat or dairy. I've heard that this is both far beyond what kosher law actually calls for as well as being a relatively recent practice. Beyond kosher law itself, where did these relatively recent practices come from and why?

It's more a question of how the law is interpreted than whether or not its "beyond" the law per se. Those practices you refer to are generally associated with Haredi, or what people call ultra-Orthodox Judaism. These movements themselves aren't exactly "recent" as they have been going for centuries, but they experienced a sort of rebirth and expanded significantly after WW2.

Earwicker fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Mar 19, 2017

RagnarokAngel
Oct 5, 2006

Black Magic Extraordinaire
For those that do practice kosher laws, separate cookware for meat and dairy is pretty standard.

Grandmother of Five
May 9, 2008


I'm tired of hearing about money, money, money, money, money. I just want to play the game, drink Pepsi, wear Reebok.
Cool thread :) I like this kind of thread a lot, so thanks to anyone taking the time to answer any questions. Anyway, questions!

Have you personally experienced bias, discrimination or harassment due to being Jewish? In relation to that, do you feel that the area in which you live is generally an accepting, safe space for you to live?

What kind of perceptions do you personally have of Christians and Muslims, and what kind of general perception or stereotypes of Christians and Muslims do you feel like might exists within Judaism? Like, is there more of a kinship in terms of the shared framework that exists, or does the difference out-weight the shared reference and makes for more antagonism? I don't mean on a political-scale, but rather, like, do you feel as if you might have more in common with a Christian, Muslim or an atheist, or doesn't it matter?

If any particular strong perception or stereotypes exists of other religions or denominations, I'd be interested to hear of any.

Whether you practice Judaism, or not, is there any part of scripture that you have feel a particular strong connection to? If so, please share if possible.

If you happen to have a personal relation with the Book of Job, I'd like to hear what wisdom and beauty you may personally find in it. The Book of Job is interesting to hear about, I feel, because it is a relatively broadly-shared frame of reference that many people know of, but interpretation can vary wildly. I know that many Christians interprets the Book of Job as having a very messianic proponent, which is something I'd imagine might not be represented the same way in Judaism, or at least not as referencing to the coming of Christ.

MJP
Jun 17, 2007

Are you looking at me Senpai?

Grimey Drawer

Grandmother of Five posted:

Cool thread :) I like this kind of thread a lot, so thanks to anyone taking the time to answer any questions. Anyway, questions!

Have you personally experienced bias, discrimination or harassment due to being Jewish? In relation to that, do you feel that the area in which you live is generally an accepting, safe space for you to live?

What kind of perceptions do you personally have of Christians and Muslims, and what kind of general perception or stereotypes of Christians and Muslims do you feel like might exists within Judaism? Like, is there more of a kinship in terms of the shared framework that exists, or does the difference out-weight the shared reference and makes for more antagonism? I don't mean on a political-scale, but rather, like, do you feel as if you might have more in common with a Christian, Muslim or an atheist, or doesn't it matter?

If any particular strong perception or stereotypes exists of other religions or denominations, I'd be interested to hear of any.

Whether you practice Judaism, or not, is there any part of scripture that you have feel a particular strong connection to? If so, please share if possible.

If you happen to have a personal relation with the Book of Job, I'd like to hear what wisdom and beauty you may personally find in it. The Book of Job is interesting to hear about, I feel, because it is a relatively broadly-shared frame of reference that many people know of, but interpretation can vary wildly. I know that many Christians interprets the Book of Job as having a very messianic proponent, which is something I'd imagine might not be represented the same way in Judaism, or at least not as referencing to the coming of Christ.

When I was in high school, some douchebag drew a swastika on my locker. I told the principal, they sent a janitor to clean it, and that was that.

In 10th grade (1998), we were watching an excerpt of Triumph of the Will as an example of propaganda. A known jerkoff made a Hitler salute and the teacher said "that's a really good way to get your arm broken"

I see Christians as either mixed between evangelical jerks or decent human beings. I know a very, very small quantity of born-again type of Christians who would never even dream of proselytizing - they're just the "I love Jesus" types. One is single and wonders where all the men who love Jesus are. Evangelicals who do proselytize are probably just jerks and I steer clear of those parts of America in general.

I see Muslims by and large as misunderstood in the US. Islam today is being perceived by and large as Judaism was in the 1920s/30s in the US. Hell, maybe even Catholicism up to when JFK was elected. "They can't be really American."

There are extremists in most religions, if not all religions. A Muslim terrorist will have an equivalent Jewish terrorist or extremist. Christian extremists commit crimes in the name of God here in the US and abroad.

I'm an atheist born Jewish. I'd probably find closer kinship to a practicing Muslim than an atheist given the literal oppression and culture of hate surrounding them more than an atheist. Yes, there's anti-atheist sentiment in this country, but they aren't trying to ban atheists from entering, nor are there "Trump is going to get rid of all you atheists" hate crimes happening almost daily.

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RagnarokAngel
Oct 5, 2006

Black Magic Extraordinaire

Grandmother of Five posted:

Cool thread :) I like this kind of thread a lot, so thanks to anyone taking the time to answer any questions. Anyway, questions!

Have you personally experienced bias, discrimination or harassment due to being Jewish? In relation to that, do you feel that the area in which you live is generally an accepting, safe space for you to live?

I live in New England, so I feel like Jews are generally pretty accepted here. The only time I can say I've gotten any poo poo is teenagers who haven't matured enough to know that anti semitism is real and hurts people.

quote:

What kind of perceptions do you personally have of Christians and Muslims, and what kind of general perception or stereotypes of Christians and Muslims do you feel like might exists within Judaism? Like, is there more of a kinship in terms of the shared framework that exists, or does the difference out-weight the shared reference and makes for more antagonism? I don't mean on a political-scale, but rather, like, do you feel as if you might have more in common with a Christian, Muslim or an atheist, or doesn't it matter?

If any particular strong perception or stereotypes exists of other religions or denominations, I'd be interested to hear of any.
I doubt my perceptions change much from others. Being the majority group Christianity is just..."the norm", you get people of all strokes and like any majority their stereotypes are limited because stereotypes are usually an outgroup being contrasted to the in-group. Muslims I dont have much contact with but it's probably like any good leftist, a misunderstood group of generally nice people.

My view of anyone not my religion (or an atheist) is we can't really know the truth. We all have to just sort of practice in the way we think is best for us. I can't say Judaism is the correct path and I'd never advocate anyone to follow me, because the covenant of Israel only covers those born into it, or those who willingly convert, nobodies going to Hell because they're not Jewish, it just doesn't work that way.

quote:

Whether you practice Judaism, or not, is there any part of scripture that you have feel a particular strong connection to? If so, please share if possible.

I actually have to say I still really love the Passover story, even if it has a lot of stuff you have to work through, namely A. It probably didn't actually happen, and B.Adonai comes off as a bit of a dick by hardening Pharaoh's heart and killing a bunch of Egyptians who had no real part in this.

But it's powerful because Moses is a pretty unassuming figure (in the Midrash it's said that he had a stutter, due to a biblical passage implying he had trouble talking) and he stood up and defeated those who would oppress others. Even if the details are probably not historically accurate, it's still a message that's pretty consistent throughout our history.

RagnarokAngel fucked around with this message at 10:46 on Mar 21, 2017

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