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bEatmstrJ
Jun 30, 2004

Look upon my bathroom joists, ye females, and despair.
OK, you guys scared me sufficiently enough that I reached out to some engineers. I spoke with one and he gave me some suggestions on how to accomplish what I want to do. Might involve some contractors but it's probably the right thing to do. So for now this will be on hold until I can get some contractors over.

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Bibendum
Sep 5, 2003
nunc est Bibendum
Edit: ^Looks like you replied while I was typing. Glad to hear you are getting some assistance, hope you can find some contractors that will work with you and let you save a bit by doing most of the work yourself.

bEatmstrJ posted:

I'm happy to share my future plans with people if that would solicit helpful advice, but telling me I did something wrong without offering any constructive advice is not helpful.

Fair enough, I didn't want to sound like I was dumping on you and risk scaring you off.
I'll add some more info and whatever insights i have. I'll mention some options that may not be proper but are probably better than nothing.

Of course I am not a licensed Engineer/Plumber/Electrician so nothing I say should be taken as real advice and you'll have to excuse me for using some incorrect terminology here and there. Also I don't know the layout beyond what i can see in the pics.

The Vanity drain thing:
I think what he was mentioning was either sideway tee for the first drain instead of a wye with the proper amount of slope. Also if it is 2' pipe there needs to be a vent within 8' of the drain, hard to tell but looks like that might be ok. Ideally there should be a circuit vent after the second sink. Is this a giant problem? Probably not terrible, there is a potential for one or both of the sinks to have their traps siphoned when a full sink of water is drained. I think adding an add an air admittance valve is out of the question since it would be too low if inside the vanity (I also don't like them because it adds a possible point of failure).
To minimize the chances of siphoning you could use drains with just a grate and no stopper so the sink can't be filled or find a style of stopper that is quite restrictive and slow to drain.

The vanity studs
The studs cant' be cut like that whether the wall supports anything or not. Doubly so when the vanity with a heavy granite top is being cantilevered off of them.
Since that room looks like it has at least 10' of clear floor in each direction it seems unlikely that the wall isn't offering at least some support even if just to purlin braces or attic storage.
Ideally I would pull the vanity back and cut some access holes to add bracing sistering around the drain and fix the vent at the same time, then tile, then put the cabinetry up.
At the very least I would get another person to sit on the vanity with you and see how much the wall deflects.

Those leaky stub-out valves:
Good luck, I've battled with those BrassCraft pieces of poo poo before, they are the worst cut-rate garbage made on worn out tooling. It seems like the torque it takes to seal them is just a hair below the torque it takes to split them. Try to find out where the plumbers near you get their supplies, probably Ferguson or Consolidated Supply. Go there and get what they recommend. Learn to hate home depot.
I'm guessing the outlet over the vanity is GFCI protected at the load center but if not it needs to be swapped for a GFCI outlet.

The tub joists:
This is what really freaks me out, since there is a recessed light fixture beneath it the room below must extend some distance so you aren't building on top of a wall(recessed lights are rarely placed close to a wall and from the pics i see no break in the ceiling sheathing)
Like someone else said, engineered joists rely on the top and bottom rails being un-interupted and uni-directionally strong, that's why they are made of straight grain wood while the webbing is made of oriented strand board. They also rely on the sub-floor to keep them from deflecting. A small lateral deflection will lead to a complete loss of longitudinal compressive strength which means no vertical support.

ideally putting it back to original and living with the tub being a few inches higher would be best but if you are going to go with this I would recommend checking out the manufacturers literature concerning stiffening engineered joists.
Put a new cap on tall enough that it both butts up against the ends of the existing cap and also extends below and well beyond it. Relieve the middle only down to whatever clearance the tub needs. Add plywood that covers all the way from the bottom cap to the top cap instead of the bridge style thing you show. It should extend well beyond the original cut, like the longest piece you can possibly fit down through that hole. Then add bridging or blocking probably with some sort of steel hanger or fixture to tie the joists to each other as best as possible or better yet put the piece of subfloor back in lower down.

Bibendum fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Mar 29, 2017

bEatmstrJ
Jun 30, 2004

Look upon my bathroom joists, ye females, and despair.

Bibendum posted:

Lots of words...

Thank you, this was very helpful.

The drain:
It's a short wye, but in hindsight we probably should have used one of the longer ones. Not sure if this will be an issue, but if I decide to take off the vanities I'll replace it. We did check the slope and that's all good.
I'm not sure what a circuit vent is, but I'll look into that. The sinks have a push down stopper but they don't drain terribly fast when they are fully open. Not sure what kind of problems this might pose. I also can't imagine when I would possibly want to fill up my bathroom sink with water, especially in sinks that aren't good sinks for such purposes.

The studs:
I'm not sure what you mean by sistering, but tell me if this sketch is what you're thinking of.


On the topic of those cabinets, I was a little apprehensive about using floating vanities because of the mounting pains. I wound up using some long, good quality cabinet screws (3" I think) to install each vanity as it sits on a ledger board. Each cabinet has 9 screws I think. I was questioning whether or not I should use some lag bolts in the studs, but I figured the cabinet screws were enough after I sat and walked on the tops of both countertops after the granite was installed and they didn't budge even a little. Still wondering if I should add some lag bolts for good measure. I'm not going to tile behind the cabinets though, but I'll consider taking them down even though I dread having to work with them after the granite has been installed.

The valves:
Yeah I had some leak trouble with those brass fittings initially but tightened them up and they sat for a few weeks not leaking before I finished mounting the cabinets. The other option was a copper stubout pipe but I have no sweating skills so I didn't really want to tackle that job.

The joists:
I'm looking into doing this the right way, which from what I've gathered so far is installing new joists that are shorter with a "sleeper board" on top to make up the difference for the taller areas. It doesn't look like it will be impossible to accomplish this, but it looks like it will require some considerable drywall loving in the kitchen. Also it will probably be a pain in the rear end considering all of the screws used to nail the subfloor down. If there's a way to leave the existing joists and add new ones that would probably be ideal. My only concern there is the amount of cables and PEX that are running through those joists and how much of a pain that will be to deal with.

bEatmstrJ fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Mar 29, 2017

angryrobots
Mar 31, 2005

I'm glad you're consulting an engineer, and I'm interested to see their plans.

kid sinister
Nov 16, 2002

Holy loving poo poo. We have a new grover.

You aren't supposed to cut the flanges on engineered beams!!! You just made your project a LOT bigger. Those beams will need to be replaced.

cakesmith handyman
Jul 22, 2007

Pip-Pip old chap! Last one in is a rotten egg what what.

Yeah, he knows. Read before posting.

kid sinister
Nov 16, 2002

cakesmith handyman posted:

Yeah, he knows. Read before posting.

:waycool:

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

I think much in the way an immune system with absolutely nothing to do sometimes just ends up attacking its self, the suburban home owner with a perfectly nice house with nothing that needs remodeling or fixing can go a bit nuts and just start attacking its self to the point that it begins to gnaw away at the load bearing elements of the building. It's like an auto-immune disorder, except with amateur builders.

bEatmstrJ
Jun 30, 2004

Look upon my bathroom joists, ye females, and despair.

Baronjutter posted:

I think much in the way an immune system with absolutely nothing to do sometimes just ends up attacking its self, the suburban home owner with a perfectly nice house with nothing that needs remodeling or fixing can go a bit nuts and just start attacking its self to the point that it begins to gnaw away at the load bearing elements of the building. It's like an auto-immune disorder, except with amateur builders.

This may come as a shock, but i'm not actually a licensed contractor, just a lowly ambitious DIYer. Mistakes will be made. Fortunately I can afford my mistakes. If you're ok with builder-grade bathrooms then more power to you, but I like a different level of house.

On the bright note, I haven't done anything that will need to be undone to accomplish my goal. What I did still would have been done by a contractor in the process of adding new beams. The only thing that has changed is my path towards completion.

Slugworth
Feb 18, 2001

If two grown men can't make a pervert happy for a few minutes in order to watch a film about zombies, then maybe we should all just move to Iran!

bEatmstrJ posted:

If you're ok with builder-grade bathrooms then more power to you, but I like a different level of house.
Then surely with your financial largess it would have made more sense to hire it out to a contractor?

Look, I don't mean to dogpile on you, because I want to see where this goes, and I respect you for listening to people here and by the sound of it, calling in a pro. Thing is, you did something silly and posted it in a forum with a thread specifically devoted to mocking that sort of thing. People are gonna give you poo poo. They'll also give you good advice. Take both with grace.

Raised by Hamsters
Sep 16, 2007

and hopped up on bagels
In defense of doing the remodel, he had loving tile counter tops. The most correct course of action would be to replace them, and then find and shoot whoever put those in.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Tile counters should be destroyed on sight, even if it's not your house.
Engineered beams should not be touched.

bEatmstrJ
Jun 30, 2004

Look upon my bathroom joists, ye females, and despair.

Slugworth posted:

Then surely with your financial largess it would have made more sense to hire it out to a contractor?

Look, I don't mean to dogpile on you, because I want to see where this goes, and I respect you for listening to people here and by the sound of it, calling in a pro. Thing is, you did something silly and posted it in a forum with a thread specifically devoted to mocking that sort of thing. People are gonna give you poo poo. They'll also give you good advice. Take both with grace.

I can handle the wrath of the internet. In between all the naysayers there are some smart people on this forum who certainly know more than I do about many things. Just because I can afford a contractor doesn't mean I want to part with my money if I don't need to. There is a certain sense of accomplishment I feel from doing these types of projects myself, and If I can save a bunch of money at the same time then I can feel even better about it. Plus I get to make micro decisions that a contractor would have definitely taken some liberties on and control the end result much better.


Raised by Hamsters posted:

In defense of doing the remodel, he had loving tile counter tops. The most correct course of action would be to replace them, and then find and shoot whoever put those in.

Agreed, tile counter tops do not belong in anyone's house.

bEatmstrJ fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Apr 1, 2017

kid sinister
Nov 16, 2002

bEatmstrJ posted:

there are some smart people on this forum who certainly know more than I do about many things.

Have you learned your lesson and will ask next time before you do anything that could possibly affect the structural capacity of your house?

You know, you're lucky you posted that picture and got called out on it. Otherwise, the tub and whoever was in it may have ended up in the room underneath after a few uses.

Somebody post the Cleveland gag from Family Guy.

bEatmstrJ
Jun 30, 2004

Look upon my bathroom joists, ye females, and despair.

kid sinister posted:

Have you learned your lesson and will ask next time before you do anything that could possibly affect the structural capacity of your house?

You know, you're lucky you posted that picture and got called out on it. Otherwise, the tub and whoever was in it may have ended up in the room underneath after a few uses.

Somebody post the Cleveland gag from Family Guy.

Yeah. I'll probably post more forward looking stuff just to get some opinions, but there is only one other structural modification I'll be making but that won't be for a while and it's probably not quite as major as this, so there's not likely to be any other major holdups.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009

bEatmstrJ posted:

Yeah. I'll probably post more forward looking stuff just to get some opinions, but there is only one other structural modification I'll be making but that won't be for a while and it's probably not quite as major as this, so there's not likely to be any other major holdups.

What's the popcorn smiley again?

Seriously dude.....you are in over your head. Lots of people do perfectly well at DIY remodels and know where they hit a reasonable limitation. But you don't have that. You blew through multiple structural members and thought there was nothing wrong with that. In fact I'm still not convinced you even understand the scope of what you did.

Bad Munki
Nov 4, 2008

We're all mad here.


I look forward to the part where he carries on with the rest of it and then when he has someone actually come in to repair the underlying structure, it turns out all his improvements have to come out because they're going to have to rip up the whole floor to replace those I-joists.

Or, the bathtub self-installs to the floor below at some later date.

canyoneer
Sep 13, 2005


I only have canyoneyes for you

kid sinister posted:

Have you learned your lesson and will ask next time before you do anything that could possibly affect the structural capacity of your house?

You know, you're lucky you posted that picture and got called out on it. Otherwise, the tub and whoever was in it may have ended up in the room underneath after a few uses.

Somebody post the Cleveland gag from Family Guy.

I was thinking more like the bathtub falling through the floor in Breaking Bad, because there will probably be blood

bEatmstrJ
Jun 30, 2004

Look upon my bathroom joists, ye females, and despair.

Motronic posted:

What's the popcorn smiley again?

Seriously dude.....you are in over your head. Lots of people do perfectly well at DIY remodels and know where they hit a reasonable limitation. But you don't have that. You blew through multiple structural members and thought there was nothing wrong with that. In fact I'm still not convinced you even understand the scope of what you did.

I would definitely consider myself more of a designer than an engineer. I'll admit, there wasn't enough thought put into this particular piece of the puzzle, but I'm also not convinced that there isn't a relatively safe way to restrengthen those joists to an acceptable level. Granted, as said, i'm not an engineer, but I find it difficult to understand that these joists can't be retrofitted. But before you go on about not believing that I don't know anything about joists and should go stand under my inevitably collapsing bathtub until the date of my most certain doom, rest assured that I am seeking proper help.

Bad Munki posted:

I look forward to the part where he carries on with the rest of it and then when he has someone actually come in to repair the underlying structure, it turns out all his improvements have to come out because they're going to have to rip up the whole floor to replace those I-joists.

Or, the bathtub self-installs to the floor below at some later date.

Much to your disappointment, even if the floor had to be ripped up, it wouldn't impact my previous improvements. But I'm glad you're enjoying the ride. I'll try to keep the excitement level up for you. =)

bEatmstrJ fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Apr 2, 2017

Cactus Ghost
Dec 20, 2003

you can actually inflate your scrote pretty safely with sterile saline, syringes, needles, and aseptic technique. its a niche kink iirc

the saline just slowly gets absorbed into your blood but in the meantime you got a big round smooth distended nutsack

bEatmstrJ posted:

I would definitely consider myself more of a designer than an engineer.

ya think

everdave
Nov 14, 2005
Man really listen I am all for the tub falling through the floor but please realize those joists getting replaced or you putting new ones in next to them. Or do whatever not my house.

Malachite_Dragon
Mar 31, 2010

Weaving Merry Christmas magic
This can only end well :grovertoot:

Literally Kermit
Mar 4, 2012
t
Hi, wanted to get on the ground floor of this thread. Gonna be a whole lot of ground floorin' in this thread pretty soon, I understand.

Chitin
Apr 29, 2007

It is no sign of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
Any argument about "saving money" by doing it yourself has officialy been destroyed along with the structural beams and your entire bathroom floor.

Chitin
Apr 29, 2007

It is no sign of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
Any argument about "saving money" by doing it yourself has officialy been destroyed along with the structural beams and your entire bathroom floor.

Chitin
Apr 29, 2007

It is no sign of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
Any argument about "saving money" by doing it yourself has officialy been destroyed along with the structural beams and your entire bathroom floor.

Hispanic! At The Disco
Dec 25, 2011


You can say that again.

Atticus_1354
Dec 10, 2006

barkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbark

bEatmstrJ posted:

Plus I get to make micro decisions that a contractor would have definitely taken some liberties on and control the end result much better.

Do you see the irony in this statement yet? If you get a good contractor they will take your design and turn it in to a reality that is also conveniently structurally sound. Plus their larger amount of experience will let you know when design and construction elements are not as good an idea as they sound or actually feasible in reality. Not all contractors are the cartoon villains that you see in sitcoms.

Burt Sexual
Jan 26, 2006

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Switchblade Switcharoo
I liked the original bathroom better. Seemed safer.

bEatmstrJ
Jun 30, 2004

Look upon my bathroom joists, ye females, and despair.

Atticus_1354 posted:

Do you see the irony in this statement yet? If you get a good contractor they will take your design and turn it in to a reality that is also conveniently structurally sound. Plus their larger amount of experience will let you know when design and construction elements are not as good an idea as they sound or actually feasible in reality. Not all contractors are the cartoon villains that you see in sitcoms.

I completely disagree with this. Having worked with a number of different contractors in the past, I can say that that the end result (down to specific details) has never been realized by me. Maybe it's different where you live but just getting a contractor to show up is a loving chore around here. I called at least 7 contractors yesterday. One of them answered and answered a few questions but said he couldn't do anything for two weeks. Two of them called back. One said he was busy and couldn't talk until tomorrow but would call me back. The other said he would come over to look tomorrow. So far no one has come over and no one has called back.

So basically I'm 0 for 7 at this point.

I have not had great experiences with contractors which makes me want to do more myself. Perhaps some day when I finally have a good experience I'll change my mind, but the fact of the matter is most of them are poo poo.

Burt Sexual
Jan 26, 2006

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Switchblade Switcharoo

bEatmstrJ posted:

I completely disagree with this. Having worked with a number of different contractors in the past, I can say that that the end result (down to specific details) has never been realized by me. Maybe it's different where you live but just getting a contractor to show up is a loving chore around here. I called at least 7 contractors yesterday. One of them answered and answered a few questions but said he couldn't do anything for two weeks. Two of them called back. One said he was busy and couldn't talk until tomorrow but would call me back. The other said he would come over to look tomorrow. So far no one has come over and no one has called back.

So basically I'm 0 for 7 at this point.

I have not had great experiences with contractors which makes me want to do more myself. Perhaps some day when I finally have a good experience I'll change my mind, but the fact of the matter is most of them are poo poo.

Did you tell them you cut out the top of the I beams before or after?

Cactus Ghost
Dec 20, 2003

you can actually inflate your scrote pretty safely with sterile saline, syringes, needles, and aseptic technique. its a niche kink iirc

the saline just slowly gets absorbed into your blood but in the meantime you got a big round smooth distended nutsack
Well yeah, being working people with lives and bills to pay they do tend to fill out their schedule rather than keeping it clear and just sitting staring at the phone in case some dude calls randomly and asks them to come over immediately.

Burt Sexual
Jan 26, 2006

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Switchblade Switcharoo
I'm shocked a trained and skilled craftsman didn't come over the same day to fix a DIYers major fuckfest.

Slugworth
Feb 18, 2001

If two grown men can't make a pervert happy for a few minutes in order to watch a film about zombies, then maybe we should all just move to Iran!
A full schedule is one thing, but I will say I have no patience for a professional who is flaky about communications.

everdave
Nov 14, 2005
I have a contractor I love and I'll be honest with you I can't get him back to my house I have jobs just not worth his time I've enlisted my friend to help me diy but the two major bathroom jobs that were multiple thousand jobs I had my contractor. Good guys are covered and can't be bothered with a bathroom maybe you should mention that this is a multi thousand dollar fix and they will be more receptive (because it is)

Turtlicious
Sep 17, 2012

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
yo these guys are lying to you, Joists are a part of the corporate lobby to charge you extra money. You just have to make sure that your floor is properly stress tested, what I'd do is just math the thing out.

Like a bathtub ways between 250 - 500 pounds, and holds about 30 - 50 gallons of water, so that's about 800 pounds, then you add a goon, and you've got 1,100 - 1,200 lbs

So look at your floor, those tiny pieces of wood, and throw some plywood over it, because plywood is created with 200+ PSI of pressure which is a pressure measurement that's about 1lb of pressure per inch. This is great for you, as long as you have enough plywood, you'll never fall through your floor, just don't break the 200 PSI

socketwrencher
Apr 10, 2012

Be still and know.

bEatmstrJ posted:

I have not had great experiences with contractors which makes me want to do more myself. Perhaps some day when I finally have a good experience I'll change my mind, but the fact of the matter is most of them are poo poo.

I think it's cool that you want to DIY and agree that it can be wearisome dealing with crappy contractors. This is quite an ambitious project to take on alone. I'm wondering if you considered talking with your building dept before embarking on this.

Slugworth posted:

A full schedule is one thing, but I will say I have no patience for a professional who is flaky about communications.

Me too. I understand not getting an immediate response for a free consultation/estimate that 90% of the time is a waste of the contractor's time, but 24 hours seems reasonable even if it's a short text or email saying sorry but I can't help you right now.

Vulcan
Mar 24, 2005
Motobike
No contractor wants to come fix a small portion of a DIY mistake as cheap as possible.
They want you to call them before you start a project, have them do all the work for you and use all their sub contractors so they can turn a quick remodel into a $20,000 project.

What you need is a construction worker who moonlights on craigslist. Yes they exist, sometimes they want to pad their bank account with untaxed dollars and sometimes they are just low on work with their current employer.

The caveat is you get a few of these craigslist people then you need to put on your monocle and sort the wheat from the chaff. The wheat will fix your beam and the chaff will make another notch on the bottom.

socketwrencher
Apr 10, 2012

Be still and know.

Vulcan posted:

No contractor wants to come fix a small portion of a DIY mistake as cheap as possible.

That's true, but I'm not sure "cheap as possible" is part of the equation. It depends on the area of course too in terms of the supply and demand for contractors.

I'd be inclined to seek out referrals from people with first-hand experience.

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Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Just get some 2x10's or something and nail them onto the sides of your engineered beams, she'll hold.

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