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resurgam40 posted:I had actually forgotten about the spirit mirror, yes... but I also remember that its so-called magical powers have been described by people other than Natsuhi. It's Shannon and the other servants who say that that mirror can defeat Beatrice, but Natsuhi hasn't talked about it at all; she keeps it in a box on her desk, so its entirely possible that the only value it has for her is sentimental. She does come from a family of... Shrine caretakers or something? A semi-religious family, I recall.
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Mar 22, 2017 04:27
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bman in 2288 posted:She does come from a family of... Shrine caretakers or something? A semi-religious family, I recall. Shinto Priests would be the word. She would probably dress more traditionally Japanese had she not joined with the ushiromiya's who are very western.
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Mar 22, 2017 04:53
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resurgam40 posted:I had actually forgotten about the spirit mirror, yes... but I also remember that its so-called magical powers have been described by people other than Natsuhi. It's Shannon and the other servants who say that that mirror can defeat Beatrice, but Natsuhi hasn't talked about it at all; she keeps it in a box on her desk, so its entirely possible that the only value it has for her is sentimental. quote:When she reached for the doorknob, trying to leave the room, her hand touched the scorpion charm that she had hung from it before going to sleep the previous night. It was Maria's charm, that Jessica had given Natsuhi. Surely, Jessica had said something about it having the power to repel magic, and that she should hang it from her doorknob. Maybe it was thanks to the charm that at least this room had been protected from her husband's siblings' malice. As she thought this, her mood began to get a little more cheerful. Oh yeah, I almost forgot she also hung a magical charm on her doorknob. At any rate, I don't remember Natsuhi's normal attitude against magic and spirits to be particularly negative. She proclaimed that witches didn't exist when her family was getting murdered, sure.
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Mar 22, 2017 05:18
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  BGM: White Shadow In that rose garden, Kinzo, Kanon, and Natsuhi could be seen...   "...Thank you very much. The weather just happened to be good this year." "Thanks to your care, the garden is even more beautiful than usual. Good work." "Thank you very much..." "If today weren't so special... we might have been able to admire the roses while enjoying some black tea."Kinzo shrugged. Today was the family conference. When it came to the other siblings' businesses, they hadn't heard anything good. On the contrary, those siblings probably planned to turn the conversation to the topic of Kinzo's remaining life, and hold a quiet feud over the inheritance.  "...Those people are quite unpleasant. By the way, what about Krauss? Is that debt repayment plan of his proceeding well?" "It really does seem to be a realistic plan. However, the scale of the plan appears to be quite large, and it doesn't seem to be bearing fruit as well as he expected." "If possible, I had hoped that something could be done before today's family conference." "...Yes. My apologies." BGM: Cage How had she gotten up there? Well, it's pretty pointless to wonder about that sort of thing when you're dealing with a witch. Beatrice was casually sitting on the roof of the arbor, almost as though she had been basking in the sun.  "Hmph. I am already dead. Even evaporating would be no detriment." "...We can't have that happen. Please, for the sake of the Ushiromiya family, lend us your strength just a little longer." "Natsuhi. It seems that the boat with the relatives on it has left the harbor. It might be a good idea to end your walk soon." "...Is that so? Thank you. Please return to the study, Father." "Just great... A shame that I must go back when the weather is so perfect." "Don't grumble, Kinzo. Right now, you are nothing more than a ghost that I gave life to. It'll be troublesome for both me and Natsuhi if you're scattered away by the toxin." "Just be a good boy, shut yourself away in the study, and put a blanket over yourself or something. *cackle*cackle*!" "Hmph. Just being given the chance to enjoy the roses even after death makes me extremely fortunate. I understand. I shall return to the study." "But I would like some black tea. Kanon, tell Genji to take me some. Some Marco Polo would be nice today." "...Certainly." "Of course, Father. He can't say it in front of them, but my husband is already the Ushiromiya family head. And, I will do all I can to see that I don't embarrass him as his wife." "...Compared to Krauss, who's had a stomach ache since this morning, you are so very composed, Natsuhi. My son is quite hopeless." "My husband is talented in his own way. Supporting him where he's weak is my duty as his wife." "Hmm. Give it your best. I will make sure to stay shut away so that I don't get in the way of this farce." "Kanon. Go with Father to the study. And then have Genji serve some black tea." "I'm not so senile that I need your help to stand up. Here I go..."Refusing Kanon's attempt to lend him a hand, Kinzo rose from the flower bed he had been sitting on. The retired head left everything in Natsuhi's hands and returned to the study at a gentle pace...  "...You're looking well. You possess a sense of dignity similar to Kinzo's deceased wife."  "Yes. In the blink of an eye. I can just disappear, but if someone already dead such as Kinzo loses his form, he'll be blown away by the winds of the sun in a matter of minutes and disappear like garbage. You must take care." "Yes. I understand." "...You might have talent as a witch. The magic-resisting toxin has been building up in your system over the years, and yet you are still able to understand magic. If you and I had met during your youth, you might have become a powerful witch by now." "I am Ushiromiya Krauss's wife, the head's wife. I would become even a witch or a demon to protect his honor. I am deeply grateful for the power of your magic. I wouldn't have been able to protect the honor of the Ushiromiya family without you." "Let's discuss that at another time. I'd like to enjoy it with just the two of us women drinking tea." "A friend of mine who went to Sri Lanka sent me some black tea with a wonderful rose fragrance." "Hoh, you mean Dimbula. That isn't bad. Then you should also have patis on the side. You must serve me some as a reward if I manage to trick everyone for the whole upcoming family conference. It's a promise." "Understood. I promise. Then, I'll see you later." "Yeah, later."The witch made her body crumble into the rustling winds, became gold flower petals, and scattered into thin air. Natsuhi watched her go, then turned on her heels and headed for the mansion. After that, there was no one left in the rose garden...   Video: Genre ConventionsBGM: Organ Short #200 Million in C Minor  "...None at all. If you gotta pee, why don't you just go and do it...?" "What a rude thing to say. Kinzo is already dead, right? But he's walking around and talking, isn't he? Doesn't that mean this is magic?!" "Well, I doubt this move would work on you after all this time, Bern. But what about you, Battler?" Isn't this weird? Don't you have to accept the existence of the magic that revived Kinzo? Hahhihhyahhahaaaah!" "...If you're trying to imitate Beato, it's pissing me off, so stop it right now." "*giggle*! Figured it out?! Then come on, how are you gonna answer, Battler? Kinzo was just out for a stro~ll. Why don't you do what you usually do and start holding your head, crying 'THIS DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE!!'...? C'mon, use that old 'IT'S ALL USELESS' catch phrase and let me hear your classic nonsensical counterargument. There's no way that a human who's supposed to be dead could be walking around, right? Is this all because of some unknown virus called the Rokkenjima Syndrome which causes mass delusions? Or do the scales of a mysterious form of butterfly that only lives on Rokkenjima happen to be hallucinogenic?! Or is it all because a mysterious secret organization called "Yamainu" made an as-of-yet undiscovered drug called Purupurupikopuyo which causes mass delusions?!! Let me hear tons of this wonderful crap,kyaaahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!" "...Just shut up. This isn't even a problem." "By acting like he doesn't exist, Aunt Natsuhi created a lie in an attempt to hide Grandfather's death and trick her way through the family conference.." "Oh? It's Natsuhi's lie?! You can revive the dead by lying? Wouldn't that make it Natsuhi's magic?" "This world is like a Braun tube before you've looked in it. It's the world of the cat box before you open it. As long as Aunt Natsuhi says that she took a walk with Grandfather, and as long as no one can confirm that that's a lie. It's possible to display 'Aunt Natsuhi taking a walk in the rose garden with Grandfather' as Natsuhi's reality. That means it's possible for Grandfather to appear."*clap*, *clap*, *clap*... That extremely unflattering applause was coming from Bernkastel.  "Quiet. You shut up too." "Wait a second, Battler. According to your theory, sure, it might really be possible for Kinzo to appear if Natsuhi's the only person there. If Natsuhi claims to have observed Kinzo in a world with no one except Natsuhi in it, then no one can deny it, right?" "But Kanon was in the same place, and he was also looking at Kinzo, right? How would you explain that?" "...That's no problem at all. Kanon-kun is a servant who works for the Ushiromiya family. Aunt Natsuhi probably ordered him to keep to her story so that she could hide Grandfather's death. This means that just like Aunt Natsuhi, Kanon can see Grandfather even though Grandfather isn't supposed to exist." "...Too bad, Lambda. Battler isn't going to fall for that kind of child's play anymore." "Seems so. Well, this is nothing more than an opening before the game. Like an aperitif before a meal." "...An appetizer at a bar. Green tea at a sushi restaurant." "Shut up. So we aren't gonna get anywhere unless I say it again in blue text?" "Looks like it. Would you mind?"   In the games before now, Grandfather has always shut himself away in his study. We never met him directly. However, there were some people who spoke in a way that made it seem like he was locked up in his study in a bad mood, and who claimed to have met him only a short while ago. We blindly accepted that and believed that Grandfather was in the study. That's why it was possible for an illusion of Grandfather to exist in the study. That's right, in the games before now, the only people who met Grandfather were Uncle Krauss, Aunt Natsuhi, and the servants.   "...You even showed me a scene at the beginning of this game of Aunt Natsuhi convincing Doctor Nanjo and the rest to cover up Grandfather's death. I'm not gonna fall for a cheap trick like that after all this time." "...Not bad. But I was hoping for the unknown drug Purupurupikopuyo." "There's no way he'd say something so ridiculous, right...? After all, supposing that such a thing exists would be just as bad as surrendering to the fantasy genre." "...What do you mean, 4th commandment?" "Knox's 4th. It is forbidden for unknown drugs or difficult to understand scientific devices to be used. It's a rule that these cannot be used for murder." "What the hell... Unknown drug X and unknown scientific device X should be the best kinds of weapons to use when fighting against a witch..." "...That's what I'm talking about. All of those violate the rules of a proper mystery. Supposing an unknown virus, an unknown drug, an unknown sickness, or an unknown XXX was used puts it totally in the fantasy genre. My condolences. If that was your theory, then it's 'game over' for you. *giggle*giggle*." "...H, hey... What are you talking about...?" "You think you've been fighting in direct opposition to Beato. But that's not actually true. You haven't been in direct opposition. You've been fighting along with her from a slightly different angle." "All this playing detective you've done hasn't been fantasy vs mystery. It's only been fantasy vs anti-fantasy." "...I don't have a clue what you're talking about. But there's one thing I do get. It sounds like you're saying there's something wrong with the way I've been fighting." "...We are fighting to kill the fantasy known as the Illusion of the Witch. That means interpreting this tale as a proper mystery. In other words, from the very start, we have to ignore any and all elements that violate the taboos of the mystery genre." "I, ignore, you say...?" "For example, several closed room murders have occurred in the games before now, right?" "...Y, yeah." "At every single crime scene, you enthusiastically check with Beato to make sure there are no hidden doors, right? Then that leads to a flashy bunch of red truths weaving together all over the place, almost as though that itself is the battle. I call that a waste of time." "So when trying to interpret everything as a proper mystery, the whole debate over whether there are hidden doors or not is lost from the beginning, see...? After all, there aren't any. As soon as you suspect that they might exist, then it's already 'game over' for you. In other words, the way you assume that you can't use reason just because it hasn't been proven that hidden doors don't exist at the crime scene makes you simply naive and a failure at the mystery genre. You've already lost once you start thinking that. You were trying to interpret everything within the bounds of the mystery genre, right...?" "*cough*. That's how it is. Hidden doors must not exist at any of the crime scenes. That means anything you do to try and check whether they exist or not is a waste of time." "...I think I know what you're talking about. I've heard about it somewhere. Is this like the ten basic rules for mystery novels or something?" "Yeah, that's right. They're the ten wedges to drill into witches that Knox, the peerless archbishop of witch hunting, brandishes. Those are the true weapons with which to fight and defeat the fantasy known as the Illusion of the Witch head on." "...Just like you, Bern. Bringing in such a troublesome weapon. That's the great rival of the fantasy genre." "...So you deny the existence of hidden doors right from the start, without even investigating the crime scene... That sounds more like fantasy to me..." "Lambda, who's in charge of the witch's side, is fantasy. I'm the one who's fighting her, mystery. What are you? You are barely anti-fantasy and do nothing but repeatedly dodge and deny fantasy. You're opposed to absolutely everything, but you can make no counter-proposals. You're like a politician from some country. *giggle*giggle*." "Shut up. I didn't come here to speak gibberish with you two. Continue the story right now...!!" "...Be quiet. That sleeping princess behind you looks like she's in pain, doesn't she?"When he turned around, he saw Beato's living corpse resting in a chair... However, sweat glistened all over her body and it felt like she was breathing a little harder than normal. She looked as though she was suffering from a high fever.  BGM: Witch in Gold (cembalo) "What do you mean, okay? You sure do say some strange things. Aren't you fighting to kill this girl?" "..." "We've rewound this 5th game for your benefit, but right now, Bern has done a good job cornering her opponent and is about to break through the Illusion of the Witch. Her existence has been almost completely denied. It's only natural that she's suffering." "...Even now, you smashed the Illusion of the Witch by saying there was no way Kinzo exists. This is the proof that your attack reached Beato. This agony of hers." "..."...I tried to at least wipe away the sweat on Beato's forehead with a handkerchief. It's true I promised Beato that I'd let her die. But that was supposed to be, peacefully. I wasn't planning to make her suffer first. My goal isn't to make the sleeping Beato suffer like this before killing her... As if they had seen right through to my complicated feelings, the two witches giggled together...  BGM: Moonlit Night  "It isn't my fault, it was just an unlucky coincidence, right?! He just happened to be in the corridor and heard... it was an accident, I tell you, an accident...!" "Could you two give it a rest...? Just call it our bad luck this time and give it up. If you leave a man alone, his mood'll pop right back to normal." "Hopefully Father's feelings weren't hurt so much that he writes up some strange will."The relatives took a deep breath and fell into silence...  "Hey! You can't jump around either, Maria! What'll you do if Ange-chan falls?!" "...Sorry to keep you waiting. The boat is ready." "Alright, let's go. Won't get anywhere by complaining now." "We eagerly await your return to this island."Natsuhi was sitting on a bench in the rose garden, looking completely worn out. However, when she noticed that Kanon and Kumasawa were coming back, she immediately sat up straight, regaining the dignity of the head's wife.  "Yes. It departed just a minute ago." "I see. Good job seeing them off. What is my husband doing?" "He returned to his room a short while ago. He is resting."Since the previous day, Krauss had been almost overwhelmed by anxiety over the thought that Kinzo's death might be discovered. When the family conference ended, his weariness must have suddenly gotten ahold of him. However, the way he had refused to let even a sliver of his true intentions slip out and the manner in which he had managed to act as though everything was normal showed that Krauss's nerve was nothing to sneeze at. "...How was it? Did they seem to notice anything suspicious about Father...?" "Nope. Eva-sama and the rest were having a big ruckus over how the Master overheard them talking about the inheritance. Right? Wasn't their panicking just priceless?" "Yes. They were quite shaken up." "But Kumasawa, you really are quite an actress. All that panic in the corridor made it seem like Father really was there." "...Kumasawa-san is quite talented at that sort of thing." "Oooh, come now, I don't deserve such praise. Hoh-hoh-hoh-hoh." "*giggle* I always have to strictly tell Genji not to easily believe anything you say when you call in sick." "Now that's just too harsh, Madam. Oh-hoh-hoh-hoh-hoh..." "You really did a good job. Both of you, as well as Genji and Shannon, will get your pay for a month's worth of past vacation time, as well as five extra days, just as promised." "This is a secret benefit. Talk with Genji when you collect your pay so that the other servants don't find out." "Su~re, we understand. Right?" "...Kumasawa-san. Your voice is too loud." "Ooh, not good, not good, hoh-hoh-hoh." "Good point. Let's leave it at that for the time being. We should all return to our regular duties. That's right, I've had Gohda prepare some special tea. Tell him to serve it." BGM: Hope And the black tea which had been carried all the way to the bench... was the Sri Lankan tea Dimbula that she had promised Beato, along with patis... And sitting on either side of this, staring at it curiously, the wife of the head and her witch could be seen.  Apparently Natsuhi, not realizing that it had a curry-like spicy flavor, had started choking after putting it in her mouth. To describe it in Japanese terms, it was like fried dumplings stuffed with mashed, curry-flavored potatoes. As a household dish, it would probably be pretty popular with the kids. However, it was something of a shock to Natsuhi, who expected that a treat to go with tea would be something sweet. "Didn't you know? Dimbula always goes with this. Black tea always goes with cookies. Oh, but chocolate is good too. You must have sweet bean jelly with Japanese tea, although salted konbu also works. Chinese tea goes with Chinese dumplings. Though I like moon cakes too." "...I'm surprised. You know a lot about culture, don't you?" "Well, I haven't been living a thousand years for nothing. I've tried refined teas from all over the world. Perhaps you could call it a journey through the world of tea." "That does seem like it would be a wonderful way to travel the world. Before today, I never knew that one could enjoy tea like this. I will treasure this experience." "I cannot leave Rokkenjima. This is the only way I can travel. What about you? I'm sure you've elegantly traveled the world like any wealthy wife might." "...Before Jessica was born, my husband took me to many countries. Before marrying, I never once traveled overseas, so each time was a fresh and new experience." "...Hmph. Sounds like you were also born into a very rigid family." "...It was strict, but they gave me a wonderful upbringing. It would be rude to my father and mother to call that rigid." "That's a pretty eloquent way to call it rigid. *cackle*."Krauss might have pitied Natsuhi. Or, he might have wanted to take her away from the rigid Ushiromiya family for a little bit and let her rest. Or, he might simply have wanted to take his wife around countries he knew well and show off everything he knew. "Unlike Father, my husband likes countries in Asia. Hong Kong, Taiwan, Korea, Thailand. I think we also went to Malaysia." "*cackle*cackle*. That Krauss... was he trying to resist Kinzo's western obsession? But Asia is good too. The Japanese are strongly influenced by the west. When they think of foreign countries, only western ones come to mind. But the east exists as well." "I myself knew a few things about the west, but I knew very little about the Orient... I seem to recall my husband making fun of me now and then during our travels."Beato secretly peeked into Natsuhi's heart, which was grumbling that they had all been very tiring trips.  BGM: Far It looked like a small, round, gourd-like nut that had been smashed, with cucumber wedged in it. At a glance, it looked as though it would probably taste like pickles. "I, I see. So I just bite it here...?"As she tried to bite the one her husband was holding, he suddenly moved it away. It felt kind of embarrassing, like she was a fish who took the bait.  "Whoa, wait up. You have to eat it a certain way. Yes, you are supposed to bite it. Bite it. Chew it. But don't eat it." "Huh? Even though you bite and chew it, you can't eat it?" "Yes. Bite and chew. Don't eat. And don't drink the juice. It'll make your stomach hurt." "I, I don't understand... Why would you eat something like that??" "Think of it as something like gum. Chew it and enjoy the flavor. Then take the scraps you've bitten and the juice and spit it out into a paper cup like this." Even her favorite handkerchief, which she had wiped Krauss's mouth with, had bright red marks on it. Something that's poisonous if eaten or drunk, and it makes the inside of your mouth so bright red, and having to spit something out after you've put it in your mouth... how indecent! Thinking this, Natsuhi adamantly refused Krauss's invitation. "No way, no way, I'm fine, I'm fine...!" "This is a cross-cultural experience. What's the point of traveling if we don't do things that can only be done here?"Krauss kept chewing, ignoring the fact that even his lips were being covered with bright red. "Father likes these too. He must have ordered some long ago, because he used to chew away at them on the mansion's terrace. Although it seems he's stopped ever since you came here. Look here, Father, the person you respect even more than me, used these all the time. Look, look, don't be shy and take some." ...During travel, Krauss had the innocence of a child. He didn't even conceal his jealousy of the respect Natsuhi normally gave Kinzo. Just being able to see that side of her husband made traveling all the way to another country worthwhile... Krauss urged her even harder to bite it, but Natsuhi, undaunted, ran from place to place and finally yelled that he was being too pushy. Krauss was miffed the whole bus ride. What a child, to let something like this get him down, Natsuhi thought, astounded. Then, a native tour guide in the bus took out one of those areca nuts and started explaining about it. It had apparently been a beloved luxury item in these parts since ancient times, similar to tobacco. Just like Natsuhi had done, it was starting to become disliked by young people and was becoming obsolete. Furthermore, it was treated as a good luck charm in this area and known as a symbol for couples.  "So, you then leaned on your husband and held his hand, did you?!" "What the heck, you and your husband share a pretty pure love, don't you?! Did you get all fired u~p? You know, like, that night♪ Kiiihihihihihihi!!"Red-faced and avoiding Beato's eye, Natsuhi tried to hide her embarrassment by swallowing the patis whole, chewing with her cheeks puffed out like a blowfish. Beato said 'Yep, there's nothing better than this to go with tea' and nodded several times, a broad smile on her face...  BGM: Cage "Well, it's the same for me. I can keep dying, but I just can't escape Rokkenjima. I'm also a bird in a cage." "I don't know much about you, and I won't pry. However, I do see that you're under circumstances not to be trifled with." "I have no desire to act like the chief prisoner here. Let's be friendly as fellow birds in this cage. I've taken a liking to you." "Really? Thank you." "The instructions and orders you gave the servants for this family conference were superb. You took everything from where Kinzo would be and when, what he did, and what he left behind. Then put it all together splendidly without any contradictions. That detailed written plan of yours had the same beauty as a high-level magic circle."To make it look like Kinzo actually existed and was living life his own way, she had written his schedule for the day down to the finest detail and made the servants follow it to the letter. When did he meet who and where, and what did he leave them? When did he do what and where, and what changed? As a result, even though the relatives never saw Kinzo even once, they hadn't suspected in the slightest that he hadn't been there. Eva and the rest truly believed that Kinzo had just happened to be walking through the hall when he heard them talking about the inheritance and went into a rage. Everything had gone just as Natsuhi's plan had predicted, down to the finest detail. And the cooperation by the servants had also worked down to the finest detail... "We couldn't afford to have this secret known even in the worst case scenario. That's why I double-checked the plan thoroughly." "Your willpower and attention to detail summoned success with certainty. As a witch, it seems that you're in Lady Lambdadelta's camp. At your current level, as soon as you become self-aware of that as magic, you will be worthy of calling yourself a witch apprentice." "If you call something like that magic, then that would make Kumasawa the witch of feigned illnesses. She only calls us to say she's taking the day off because of her bad back on the busy days. Like every year's family conference."
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Mar 22, 2017 13:28
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ProfessorProf posted:
This is how you end up with small bombs, Battler. ProfessorProf posted:
Oh, Jesus, is he really going there? Does this story actually follow Knox's rules? I'm pretty sure we've violated a few of these already. I think we talked about this a bit in the last thread, but here's the complete list: 1. The criminal must be someone mentioned in the early part of the story, but must not be anyone whose thoughts the reader has been allowed to follow. 2. All supernatural or preternatural agencies are ruled out as a matter of course. 3. Not more than one secret room or passage is allowable. 4. No hitherto undiscovered poisons may be used, nor any appliance which will need a long scientific explanation at the end. 5. No Chinaman must figure in the story. 6. No accident must ever help the detective, nor must he ever have an unaccountable intuition which proves to be right. 7. The detective must not himself commit the crime. 8. The detective must not light on any clues which are not instantly produced for the inspection of the reader. 9. The stupid friend of the detective, the Watson, must not conceal any thoughts which pass through his mind; his intelligence must be slightly, but very slightly, below that of the average reader. 10. Twin brothers, and doubles generally, must not appear unless we have been duly prepared for them. Just for reference, rule 5 isn't about Father Knox being racially prejudiced; it's actually the opposite. Back when he wrote the book these rules come from, Yellow Peril stories were pretty popular, and so whenever anyone from China appeared in a story, it was only so that they could be revealed as a perfidious, semi-mystical menace. That sort of thing is antithetical to a well-constructed mystery both because it's racist as poo poo and because it makes the mystery too easy to solve. Note that while Father Knox was actually a priest, he was not in any way associated with witch-hunting that I know of. I'm fairly certain he didn't become an archbishop, either. Anyway, we've already followed everyone's thoughts, I think, so 1 is out. We've got two secret passages (one leading to the gold and one leading between mansions), so 3 is busted. If Kinzo was raised in China, we might technically have violated 5. Whether we've broken 6 depends on who we consider to be the detective; if it's Battler, he's been helped by accidents a few times now. He's more like a Watson, though, and he's doing a good job at being incompetent, so if that's how it works both 6 and 9 would be intact. We broke 8 with the epitaph stuff in earlier episodes, but maybe we won't screw with that one anymore. Lots of proposals of 10 have happened, but I don't believe we've proven any of them yet. Overall, Bernkastel's argument is full of holes. Good thing she doesn't actually exist or she might be embarrassed. (Now I'll wait around for some wag to try to say that we've violated the second rule, too.) Oh, a point of trivia. Knox was also one of the first people to play The Great Game. For the unfamiliar, that involves trying to square the accounts of Sherlock Holmes with reality, explaining any inconsistencies in the canon or between the canon and reality. (For instance, Watson's injuries are said to be in two different places at different points during the Holmes stories, so one has to decide if he was wounded twice, or if there was an unlikely accident with a particularly strangely-behaved bullet.) He wrote at least one article on the subject. It feels kind of appropriate that someone involved in that sort of pursuit would be mentioned in this game.
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Mar 22, 2017 14:39
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For the record, the full text of Knox's essay can be found here. Umineko uses a slightly different version, but the core is the same. As for whether or not the story adheres to the Decalogue, I'll leave that to the game and the thread to discuss.
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Mar 22, 2017 14:43
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You know, it's been ages since I read that, and I forgot how funny it is. It's really worth a look if you have even the most passing interest in mysteries.
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Mar 22, 2017 14:58
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ProfessorProf posted:"...It is quite pleasant to watch men who speak of pride as they turn that desire into reality. The 'quiet man of action' is nothing more than an excuse used by the extremely lucky. A true monarch also speaks of what he doesn't have. And he makes that pride a reality without fail. If one is to control me, they must possess that monarch's pride." Hang on. All this talk about a monarch... Everything makes sense now! This is the spiritual predecessor to Dark Souls 2! The whole family must be branded by the dark sign, that's how this story keeps repeating; but most of them are hollowed enough that they don't remember the previous games. ProfessorProf posted:As Beatrice laughed unpleasantly, no, that wasn't it. She was testing Natsuhi, to see whether she possessed the mental readiness to be a true monarch. Natsuhi wasn't confused anymore. She answered clearly, gazing into Beatrice's eyes. There are no strong souls around, so Natsuhi has to resort to grinding for them from her family. This will take a while... Except I'm wrong by default, because witches are in the Souls games and witches aren't real  v: Oh, true. I don't know how I forgot, her hat's the best hat. Telum fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Mar 22, 2017 |
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Mar 22, 2017 15:20
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"Do you understand, Natsuhi? A true monarch fears no hardship. They declare that they will overcome anything without fail. Even if they haven't yet figured out how. This gives hope to the weak people. They gather, revere the monarch, and swear to assist him. This is where power is gained and his word is carried out. Engrave that into your heart."
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In point of fact, Beatrice is in DS1.
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Mar 22, 2017 15:47
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ProfessorProf posted:
Well, she's got your number, hasn't she, Battler? Can't just throw out "small bombs" and expect to be taken seriously in a mystery story. But mean as they are, the berries do have a point that the battles of the first game had little to do with mystery; as Berne said, it's anti fantasy- it's denying a witch. Consequently, there existed a lot of confusion as to what we were actually supposed to do- solve the mystery of the death, or merely show that the death occurred through mundane means instead of magical? To identify the right culprit, or simply a culprit? And while some theories were arrived at, it was generally in spite of Battler's flailing than because of it, in looking at the things he was flailing around and building suppositions (which might be totally wrong too, and he did call that Kinzo was dead before any of use, so maybe I shouldn't talk). Now that the mystery genre has been invoked, and someone who knows about those rules (one set of such rules) anyway is at the helm, I wonder if we are going to get closer to the truth of the matter... even if the answer will eventually involve dipping back into the anime well. But truth be told, all I'm thinking about after this episode is what a massively adorable, George-tier dork Krauss apparently was as a younger man  Though if they really did travel to all those countries, I suppose that is further evidence of his not really ever understanding mony or how to work with it... Whatever! Still cute!
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Mar 22, 2017 15:48
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Oh please, following those rules isn't a requirement of mystery. Especially since we know that those rules don't fit this island. They are just guidelines for writing a fair mystery, but even then you can still write an unfair mystery.
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Mar 22, 2017 17:20
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idonotlikepeas posted:We've got two secret passages (one leading to the gold and one leading between mansions), so 3 is busted. How are they secret passages if you know about them 
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Mar 22, 2017 17:32
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Also when has Battler been helped by accident or luck.
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Mar 22, 2017 17:33
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resurgam40 posted:But truth be told, all I'm thinking about after this episode is what a massively adorable, George-tier dork Krauss apparently was as a younger man I don't get it, how is that flashback supposed to clue us into how Krauss has no skill with money?
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Mar 22, 2017 18:08
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I don't know about anyone else, but Bern being a backseat detective would drive me right up a loving wall if I were Battler. Insufferably Smarmy must be really high level Witch ability because Beatrice wasn't half as obnoxious as one of these two, let alone both of them.
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Mar 22, 2017 18:26
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Wow, I am finally caught up! Didn't make it in time for the end of last thread but at least I am somewhat on the ground floor for this one? First I have to say this is fantastic, both the story itself and ProfessorProfs LP efforts, plus the discussion seems so fun I decided to delurk. I even had this swell idea Kanon was the culprit while reading but the rest of the thread ended up already covering it and now I can't seem clever about it because I'll just regurgitate things resurgam, TLC and peas have been saying. Oh well. So I'll just say I'm on board the Shannon and Kanon are behind everything train since reading others theories have convinced me Shannon is also too suspicious. I don't buy that they are the same person though since that seems to require pretty much everyone on the island aside from Battler being in on it for it to work and if this is some Murder on the Orient Express where everyone is guilty I will be really disappointed. Two things though, one is a really tiny criticism/request. The music is really, really good but there seems to be missing links at the beginning of some of the posts? I'm assuming it is because Prof is cutting some chapters in half and the music from the previous update is supposed to still be playing. The problem is I'm never 100% sure when this is the case or if it's really supposed to be silent for a long time or if I should scroll back and look for the last music link. I'm sorry if this is really petty since I'm aware that in the big scheme of things it's not really a big thing, but it's something that has been bugging me. The second thing is that I have yet to see someone comment on this: http://imgur.com/a/3uQHL (sorry for the link, for some reason it kept showing up as broken whenever I tried to include it as an image) When I went back to get the image link for it I realised why, it's not included in the screenshots, just in the video for the end of EP4 with the "credits". Sneaky, but I am on to you So my guess is that we really won't be seeing Ange again, which kind of sucks. And sort of related since I have ~ideas~ about this, but is Okonogi in this supposed to be the same Okonogi as in Higurashi (I read the manga) or is this a case like with Lambdadelta who just looks like someone from that and kinda shares a name?
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Mar 22, 2017 19:25
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Okonogi is probably not literally the same (although that is possible) but is that at least that individual in this fragment.
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Mar 22, 2017 19:55
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Eleanore posted:Two things though, one is a really tiny criticism/request. The music is really, really good but there seems to be missing links at the beginning of some of the posts? I'm assuming it is because Prof is cutting some chapters in half and the music from the previous update is supposed to still be playing. The problem is I'm never 100% sure when this is the case or if it's really supposed to be silent for a long time or if I should scroll back and look for the last music link. I'm sorry if this is really petty since I'm aware that in the big scheme of things it's not really a big thing, but it's something that has been bugging me. You're right and I kinda remember mentioning it to him like months ago but he probably didn't notice and I forgot to mention it again. Pretty much like with the video quality  Sorry Prof tiistai fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Mar 22, 2017 |
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Mar 22, 2017 21:02
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Nothing she just said about Knoxs rules was in red. The thing about those rules is that they're about writing a satisfactory mystery - one that doesn't make a reader feel cheated by the answer. That's a fantasy as much as witches are, though. There's nothing forcing the killer to follow those rules, and some incentive for them to break the ones they can break if it improves misdirection. I'm not sure we can say for sure that any have been broken, though. Yes, we've seen inside people's thoughts, but those thoughts can be fiction the same as anything else that isn't in red. Same with the secret passages we've seen - they may not actually exist.
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Mar 22, 2017 21:55
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I thought Kinzo liking those nuts might be a clue as to where he grew up, but they're eaten all across SE Asia according Wikipedia.tiistai posted:How are they secret passages if you know about them All passages are secret until they aren't. I think they count! Or does a secret passage require a conspiracy of silence?
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Mar 22, 2017 23:22
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Rodyle posted:Okonogi is probably not literally the same (although that is possible) but is that at least that individual in this fragment. If I'm reading this right, you're saying Umineko probably doesn't take place within the same Fragment as Higurashi because Mental Timetravel and literal Gods would be magic and thus not real or something? (Higurashi spoiler). Anyway, I'm going to go with that it doesn't matter too much in the end, because the author clearly choose to reuse the character design/name for a reason and that is enough for me to suspect that the guy is shady as hell even if he didn't assist a madwoman with disembowelling a small child and gas a whole town in this story. Anyway, about Ange, it's clear that she died sometime during the events of 1998 since I don't see why the credits would lie to us. There's two options here, either she died when she jumped off the building in the beginning and everything was a delusion or she died on Rokkenjima after meeting up with the Sumederas. I really don't like the first option because that makes Ange's character development ring empty plus it would cast the information we got about the money envelopes and message bottles into suspicion. Why show us what happened after the family conference and then say it wasn't real? My theory on the sequence of events is that Ange meets Bernkastel at the top of the building and is given the opportunity to get revenge etc, but instead of just sending her to the tearoom directly Ange first has to go on a journey to learn as much as she can about magic and the witch and the incident in the real world. At the end of the journey she is killed on Rokkenjima and meets Bernkastel again who this time sends her crashing the Golden Land party at the end of EP3 and from that point onward she's just the Meta-version. I should probably throw in a side note here that I think Bernkastel, Lamdadelta and the Meta-World are all real and magic/supernatural things do exist on some level. It's just it's impossible for magic to exist in the real human world which is separate from all that. Please let me just have this or I'll lose my sanity. Anyway, I digress, my point is that Ange gets killed on Rokkenjima. I'm with the rest of the thread that what happens is Amakusa sitting in a tree with a sniper rifle taking out the Sumadera goons rather than schoolgirl Stakes just killing everything. One possibility is simply that Kasumi managed to shoot Ange before getting shot herself: quote:Kasumi's handgun spat fire. Slowly, that bullet continued through a world frozen to the utmost limit, aiming for ANGE's forehead. But it never says the bullet actually hits her and the scene continues on: quote:...Her hands... were holding a gun. This just sounds... strange  It doesn't sound like Sumadera at all so it probably isn't just an extension of that gunfight, and if it was a purely magical representation why represent it with just ordinary guns. What if it is exactly what it sounds like and Eva just straight up left a request with Okonogi to get rid of Ange after her death? I've been waiting like all of EP4 for it to turn out Okonogi was up to no good. There's been a lot of talk of people inheriting names and the whole deal with Kinzo in EP4 representing someone who took over his will. What if the Eva that appears at the end is just Amakusa carrying out Eva's last will?Also this is probably me reaching and confirmation bias since this is based on the freakin' white day update  but this is"Eva's" last words in the scene with Ange on Rokkenjima: This is from the White Day side story: quote:
From what I remember Eva never threw in random English words like that. Pretty sure that otherwise it's just Ange, Battler and Lambdadelta that does it. Also this was probably way too much effort for a single point that will probably never be revisited since Ange is now dead and the Meta-world is only concerned with what happened in 1986. tl;dr Amakusa shot Ange on orders from Okonogi because Eva is a really bitter person.
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Mar 22, 2017 23:25
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"...Aunt Eva... died."
"*giggle* Long time no see, Angeeee. I've come back from hell to kill youu! *cackle*cackle*!!"
"But... I'm not that surprised. Aunt Eva was that kind of person."
"I imagine my funeral came as quite a relief to you, right? I feel the same, since I'll never have to see your face again...! But I had just one regret. And this is it!!"
"Kyaaaaaaaaa, Mr. Amakusa, stay strong!!" 
"<C...cool>... ...grk."
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Eleanore posted:If I'm reading this right, you're saying Umineko probably doesn't take place within the same Fragment as Higurashi because Events similar too Higurashi may have taken place in Umineko's world, but Bern was definitely born in/Lambda played her game in the Himazawa from a different world. That's all that is relevant.
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Mar 22, 2017 23:51
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CottonWolf posted:All passages are secret until they aren't. I think they count! I think the definition of "secret passage" is meant to be "a hidden passageway concealed by a false wall or other non-obvious entrance". Something that A Watson wouldn't be able to spot before it was opened. Knox also notes that they should only be used if the setting makes sense for them, citing that exhorbitant construction costs and public interest would make secret passages in most murder settings unfeasible. (Un?)Fortunately, Kinzo had the perfect combination of "a shitton of money", "a huge undeveloped island all to himself" and "enough crazy to want weird poo poo built", so the concept of a secret passage, by and of itself, doesn't break the rule. Having them all over the place as solutions to closed rooms would Just Not Do, however.
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Mar 23, 2017 00:09
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I wasn't sure re: repeating song links at the start of new posts, so I'll keep these preferences in mind moving forwards.
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Mar 23, 2017 00:29
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Dr Pepper posted:Also when has Battler been helped by accident or luck. I was thinking of Ange blasting through a window at the exact right moment to keep him from signing away victory, but actually you could cast that as part of Bernkastel's plan, so I'll withdraw that objection for now. Qrr posted:Nothing she just said about Knoxs rules was in red. The thing about those rules is that they're about writing a satisfactory mystery - one that doesn't make a reader feel cheated by the answer. That's a fantasy as much as witches are, though. There's nothing forcing the killer to follow those rules, and some incentive for them to break the ones they can break if it improves misdirection. Right, it doesn't have to, but Bern is contending that it does. I'm saying she's wrong. It's conceivable that, say, the secret passages don't really exist, though. I guess we'll see on that one. Qrr posted:I'm not sure we can say for sure that any have been broken, though. Yes, we've seen inside people's thoughts, but those thoughts can be fiction the same as anything else that isn't in red. Same with the secret passages we've seen - they may not actually exist. The intent of that rule is that it's unfair to the reader to have them follow a murderer's thoughts through a murder investigation and just suppose that they happen to not think about how they committed the murder. It's dirty pool, or as Knox might say, not cricket. KataraniSword posted:I think the definition of "secret passage" is meant to be "a hidden passageway concealed by a false wall or other non-obvious entrance". Something that A Watson wouldn't be able to spot before it was opened. Knox allows that one might include a secret passage in an appropriate area (and Rokkenjima definitely qualifies as that), but that you should limit yourself to one out of good taste. They haven't been used to bust a closed room yet, though, so that's something.
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Mar 23, 2017 02:50
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idonotlikepeas posted:I was thinking of Ange blasting through a window at the exact right moment to keep him from signing away victory, but actually you could cast that as part of Bernkastel's plan, so I'll withdraw that objection for now Battler had already figured it out before Ange jumped in though.
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Mar 23, 2017 03:01
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idonotlikepeas posted:
Well one is what we seem to have. The one that leads to the Hidden Gold and the second Mansion.
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Mar 23, 2017 04:07
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idonotlikepeas posted:The intent of that rule is that it's unfair to the reader to have them follow a murderer's thoughts through a murder investigation and just suppose that they happen to not think about how they committed the murder. It's dirty pool, or as Knox might say, not cricket. This BTW is the biggest criticism of Heavy Rain - you do literally play the villain at a point of time where it would be impossible for you to NOT know he's the killer without the game outright lying to you, which of course it did because David Cage is a hack who doesn't even know what a McGuffin is. And good catch on the <cool>, Elanaore - I somehow skipped over it, it's quite possible that's what did in fact happen.
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Mar 23, 2017 04:11
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idonotlikepeas posted:
I'll tackle this one, actually, since it's kind of interesting. This has caused problems in the past where certain Red Truths would seem to fundamentally imply that a witch did not commit these murders. This, of course, is preposterous, as magic and witchcraft is real and powerful and also my girlfriend is magic she's just in Canada right now but you'd love her if you met her I swear. But what I think is being discussed in this very update is that the argument in Umineko is fundamentally a question of what genre is it. The Witch Side argues that the story is fantasy, that reasoning is pointless, and lets all have a fun romp about krauss heroically punching goats. Reasoning is pointless, therefore, because Anime is Real. Battler argued on those terms, but Bern is taking a different tact. By specifically stating that the story is a mystery, she is making the claim "Reasoning is possible to solve these murders, and if reasoning is possible the story should be expected to follow these rules, one of which includes magic not being real." All red that might seem to imply the that the murders were not committed by witches therefore work under the assumption that the story is mystery, because to do otherwise would be akin to saying 'Magic is Real' in red, and then it's game over. So, put simply; because magic is real, Knox's Second isn't broken, because the story isn't a mystery in the first place.
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Mar 23, 2017 04:49
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oath2order posted:So, put simply; because magic is real, Knox's Second isn't broken, because the story isn't a mystery in the first place. Unless magic isn't real, in which case the Red Truth is akin to unbiased narration outside of a point of view, and Knox's Second isn't broken because it's not actually something that exists any more than lightsabers and goat-kuns exist. Except those exist because magic actually is real. 
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Mar 23, 2017 06:58
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Nice catch, Eleanore. 
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Mar 23, 2017 07:45
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I was going to argue that the problem with Knox's Rules is that you'd have to assume the actual culprit was intentionally following them, but rereading them it seems like all of them would be about things that would be out of the culprits control, aside from possibly the one about "no unknown poisons/science", but if the point of that one is to prevent things like Small Bombs rather than no poisons ever (Wasn't Maria probably poisoned at the end of EP4 and we have never seen any poison around the mansion?) I'd let it slide. I mean, I still don't think that is any guarantee that all those conditions are actually in play and Bernkastel deciding that they are because she said so is some insane troll logic. What if it's not a mystery but a drama about the cycles of abuse, huh? Admittedly the only other time I've heard of Knox's Rules was in Zero Escape, and that series just brought them up to break them.
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Mar 23, 2017 08:19
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I'm gonna keep the Knox rules in mind since they make for a better mystery, but not really trust it entirely since it's not written in red yet.
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Mar 23, 2017 08:51
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 BGM: Moonlit Night However, this second pair was in a world that the first couldn't see, where golden roses bloomed.   "...Nn..."It felt as though Beato muttered something. For the first time, it felt as though she had been able to communicate something. Surely, she had taken an interest in the black tea and felt like drinking it... Thinking this, Battler took Beato's cup and her hand, making her hold the cup...  "...Nn, "Beato's eyes trembled sadly, and her fingers shook. Almost as though she couldn't even move her fingers as she wanted to... and was mourning the fact that she could no longer enjoy the tea she had once loved by her own power... That's how she looked... So Battler put his hand on Beato's, grabbed hold of the tea cup, and lifted it to her lips... Then, though it was only a single mouthful, Beato sipped. The days in which they had been in a killing-fest with red swords and blue wedges... already seemed like the distant past. Now, not only was Beato unable to do that, it was even difficult for her to make her body do as she pleased. Even just drinking a mouthful of black tea like this was hard...  BGM: Future "..."Of course, Beato didn't respond. "...What happened to you...? Is this... another strategy? Are you pretending to be in a slump so that you can shock me later?" "..." "...If that's what you're after, the same trick won't work again, so give it a rest. If you keep acting like that, even I'll start to feel out of whack." "..." "Hey. Isn't it about time for you to start laughing loudly, saying 'Caught you, dumbass!' or something? Any kind of joke stops being funny if you use it too much. Especially if it's a rehash." "..." "Laugh. Just like you're cackling over there as you drink with Aunt Natsuhi." "..." "..." "..." "...Can't you at least grin...?" BGM: About Face Those sudden words... were exceedingly cruel. "How can you say that for sure?! Quit trying to steal away Beato's right to laugh." "...Oh, should I say it in red then...?"I shook my head furiously. Then, with an expression that didn't reveal her thoughts in the slightest, Bernkastel spoke while looking at Beato's face. And I didn't understand the word she used in the slightest.  "...For what?" "...What are you talking about...?" "You said something interesting in a previous game. You said that this would be torture where you both torment each other. That was right. It's torture for Beato as well. And, you won that torture game. That's why Beato's soul was killed, and why she became a doll-like corpse." "Are you saying, that I did this to Beato?" "The battle ends when one of you loses the will to try and win. As far as the battle between you and Beato goes, the conclusion was already reached last time. Well, it probably happened without you noticing though." "...In that case, why hasn't the game ended when I've already won? Why is this game still continuing?" "The shackle attached to that girl's ankle. That's a rule Lambda made."Even if Beatrice tries to yield or gets discouraged or gives up, she isn't capable of stepping down from the game. That's the rule. Or maybe it's a curse.  "That's why you're able to be here now. Remember? Remember how I saved you?"Bernkastel stared at me... It's true I wasn't aware of it, but just maybe, I was saved by her. "In the same way, Lambda is supporting Beato. And this time, Beato is on the verge of giving in. That's why Lambda's been giving her support this time, to keep her from giving in. That's what the shackle is. By refusing to let her resign, she's saved Beato within the game." "...How does that work?" "Normally, there are only two ways for this game to end. Either one side will accept defeat and resign, or one side will win the game with a checkmate. Beato was about to collide with the first way. That's why Lambda crushed that chance and managed to just barely avoid losing. That's a wonderful bit of support within this game."In that case, the only way left for this game to end... is for me to win. At the very least, until I do win, this witch called Lambdadelta can probably try to buy time for Beato's condition to turn back around. But, that would just prolong Beato's suffering even more... Neither of us want that. Both Beato and I fought with all we had trying to win. The game repeated several times because we were both giving it everything we could muster. Then, that one time. We confronted each other head on with all of our strength. And then, Beato acknowledged her loss. She said she wanted me to end this game... and entrusted everything to me. So, Bernkastel's words are the truth. She said it was my fault that Beato has become a living corpse. That's true. But it's something both of us wanted.  "..."Now that the game has been resolved, for it to continue any further would be torture without end to Beato. Nothing more than a nightmare. I have to give her a perfect checkmate, end this game in the truest sense, and give Beato a peaceful sleep... For that reason, I'll keep fighting. But by continuing the game, Beato's eternal torture will continue. It felt as though I could only let her sleep peacefully by slowly strangling her to death... "...I'm starting to feel like truth doesn't matter anymore. That way, the game doesn't matter as long as Beato is satisfied. Beato resigned. I'll ignore the truth about this Illusion of the Witch and return home with my family. Is there anything wrong with that?"If only Lambdadelta hadn't placed the curse of that shackle on her, this battle would be over already. That's why I found it detestable. This game, where I have to torment Beato even more to end it... is detestable. "...Whaat's this? Beato has started to look like she's in pain every time you get closer to the truth, so you're suddenly going easy on her...? Then just go as easy on her as you can. And why don't you just let Beato win while you're at it? Then your little sister can have a lonely, tragic future forced on her endlessly." "That's not how it is..." I know this isn't the time to start feeling compassion for Beato. "In that case, make sure you kill her. Kill this witch without fail." "..."Even though Beato was right there, Bernkastel spoke without holding back... "Your goal is to kill this woman. In the last game, you said it at Beato's request. You said 'I'll kill you'." "...Yeah, that may be true, but that doesn't mean you get to complain about it." "Did you know? When you tear one of your fingernails out, it's better to do it in one go. Pulling it out like you do... Timidly, twisting and slow... hurts much, much more. What you're doing sounds much more like torture to me." "..." "If you have any compassion, kill her all at once. That's how killing works." "That's none of your business. I'm the one to decide how to perform her last rites. You and that Lambdadelta witch have nothing to do with this. I'll kill her. I won't let anyone else do it." "...As long as you don't lose that willpower. I'm betting on you. Alright? Make sure you don't forget."  "...I get it." "I know what Lambda is after. She wants to make you lose your will to fight just like Beato, to make you a pair of living dolls, and to keep this world in perpetual equilibrium. You don't want that, do you? I wouldn't like it either." "Why should I care about what you want? Still, I won't throw this game away. I won't abandon the responsibility of fighting with Beato." "I'm glad our goals are the same. So, this means you'll be able to kill this child without any hesitation, right?" "..." "...That's right." "..."I have no way of knowing whether those words eased her pain or hurt her. But because of this dull tingling in my chest... I believe that she must have been hurt. I have no way of knowing what the silent Beato feels. If I believe she's been hurt, is that any different from her being hurt? And, if I didn't think I hurt her, would I have been able to get by without hurting anyone? ...  "Yeah... No problem." "It's the same as it was with Kinzo. Beatrice doesn't exist. This is a fake illusion of a witch that Natsuhi created, believing that she thought up a brilliant plan to overcome hardship by borrowing a witch's power. The only reason it looks like the two of them are drinking together is because Lambdadelta, the Game Master and the one who is telling the story interpreted it that way." "If you stare without a fragment of love for Natsuhi, you won't see illusions like that. That's why with my eyes, all I can see is Natsuhi all alone, drinking her tea in silence." "That's a delusion that Natsuhi's showing us. Beatrice doesn't exist there." "...Ugh..."Beato mumbled softly. It was a small voice that made it sound like she was in pain. The thorn of Bernkastel's truth had stabbed into her chest. "...Yeah, that's probably true. I think your theory is right. But don't say that in front of Beato." "It doesn't matter where I say it. This is Beato's world." "...Also, it's not like I'm protecting Beato, but there is a possibility that Aunt Natsuhi really is drinking tea with some unknown person X calling themselves Beatrice. This scene takes place a year before everything. The number of people on the island on this day has never been shown with the red truth." "...Sure. Even Lambda hasn't said anything in red about the number of people on Rokkenjima on this day." "In that case, it's possible for Aunt Natsuhi to claim that she really did drink tea with a woman calling herself Beatrice. Just like I can't deny your theory, you can't deny mine. That means you can't say for sure whether the Beato there is an illusion or not." "...Oh, the cat box theory? That might have worked on Beato, but it won't work on me." "Why?" BGM: None There was a violent sound of glass breaking, and the Beato joking about Natsuhi's newlywed years and laughing happily... was erased. A lonely wind blew, and the one person who remained on the bench drinking tea with a tired expression... was Aunt Natsuhi, all alone...  BGM: Moon Beato... groaned. I could see clearly that she was in anguish. Another illusion of the witch had been smashed, calling Beato towards death. In short, this is what the battle to let Beato sleep in peace is all about... A second ago, Bernkastel likened our fight to the torture of tearing fingernails out. If I have to tear them out anyway, then my last bit of compassion towards Beato should be to minimize that pain. In other words, even if I want to minimize the pain, I still have to cause it. I have to accept... that look of anguish on her face... And at the same time, I realized what a merciless thing the red truth was. ...Right now, in this rose garden, there is no one except Aunt Natsuhi. In other words, there are no observers except for Aunt Natsuhi. So, if that lone observer were to say that she'd had some tea with Beato, no one should be able to refute that. If no one can refute it, doesn't that mean it's the truth? Aunt Natsuhi is enjoying the roses and drinking tea together with Beato. How could anyone have the right to mercilessly trample that pleasant moment...?  "..." "In a battle with a witch, it's a blade that sometimes tears your theories apart, but sometimes becomes a weapon you can fight back with." "...I know. So what?" "Don't use it without reason." "..." "A blade is a tool if you use it when you're supposed to, but it's a weapon if you use it out of malice."Certainly, Aunt Natsuhi hadn't really been drinking tea with a witch. However, saying that with the red truth probably has nothing to do with our game. Our game is the tale of October 1986. The two days of the crime give us more than enough time to injure each other with our red and blue blades glistening. "This isn't about the Illusion of the Witch. It's about Aunt Natsuhi's privacy. How could anyone have the right to expose that?" "...Do you want to acknowledge that a witch actually existed here and drank tea with Natsuhi? Weren't you trying to deny the existence of witches?" "...Yes, during the game of the two day period from October 4th to October 5th, 1986. But I have no desire to question whether or not witches exist outside that game board. In the first place, it's impossible to deny the existence of witches because of the Devil's Proof. And, according to the rules of this game, saying something like that in red is a forbidden move that leads to a stalemate. You can't deny the existence of witches even with the red truth." "...True. I never thought I'd hear you talk about witches existing. Not bad, Lambda. You've done a good job of making Battler stuck between his human culprit theory and the thought that it doesn't matter whether witches exist or not. She really excels at controlling a human's heart. Looks like I'd better start helping you out even more." "I really couldn't care less about you two. Disappear. This game is between Beato and me. We're gonna keep this game to ourselves." "...No way." "What...?"  Bernkastel disappeared, leaving only that unpleasant laugh behind. "..."After that, all that remained was Natsuhi, sipping tea all alone, Beato, her hand still on the tea cup as she stared blankly at the surface of the liquid, and me.  "...Bernkastel and Lambdadelta... Virgilia called them your friends, but... you really should choose your friends more carefully. Or wait, maybe they actually make a good match with an ill-natured person like you..." "..." "..."Beato didn't answer. Battler took Beato's hand, made her hold the cup again, and brought it to her lips. Beato made a quiet sound in her throat and drank another gulp... Then, Natsuhi's lonely teatime ended. That truth, which was only Natsuhi's and observed by no one else, had been defiled. In Natsuhi's world, surely... that tea party, which had been peaceful despite her annoyance at Beato for making fun of her too much, had come to an end, and the two of them had split up. However, in Natsuhi's exposed truth, she was all alone. Natsuhi tottered away.  
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Mar 23, 2017 13:22
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Jesus Christ. The more time we spend with Berne, the nastier she gets... gently caress me, why did I ever call her "the good one" in my head, or on this forum? Beware of a Witch bearing gifts, evidently... or granting wishes. I mean, we've already established that Natsuhi is probably imagining all of this; what is the point of using red truth to shatter a happy daydream, when it does not serve the higher mystery? Solving mysteries should be cathartic, but this just feels uncomfortable.
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Mar 23, 2017 14:18
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Eleanore posted:aside from possibly the one about "no unknown poisons/science", but if the point of that one is to prevent things like Small Bombs rather than no poisons ever (Wasn't Maria probably poisoned at the end of EP4 and we have never seen any poison around the mansion?) "Unknown" in this context means asspull poisons like Purupurupikopuyo that causes people to mass hallucinate witches and golden butterflies and oyashiro-sama, not "unknown" as in something that hasn't been explicitly mentioned before. Everyone knows that "poison" is something that kills you without necessarily leaving external signs of it, although something like foaming at the mouth is obviously a telltale sign of it. There's no need to explicitly explain it. Where did the poison come from, then? If the murders were planned, maybe the cuplrit procured it beforehand from mainland, or maybe Nanjo brought it. Maybe it was found in Kinzo's study which has been mentioned having all sorts of crazy stuff in it. Whatever, it's not inconceivable. Also die in a loving fire Bern
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Mar 23, 2017 15:00
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Hypothesis: Each Game represents a different set of evidence. Thus, the reason that Beato is now incapacitated is not simply because she's "resigned" from the game, but because we've run out of messages in bottles. Thus, Lambdadelta, who represents some other authority's take on the matter (given the idea of "certainty", perhaps the official government report, but that's pretty wild speculation on my part.) I feel like the end of the first game is pretty good support for this.
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Mar 23, 2017 15:01
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tiistai posted:Also die in a loving fire Bern  As an aside, Higurashi no Naku Koro Ni utterly breaks Knox's Rules. Off hand I think it violates like 5 directly. Some are to it'so detriment as a mystery, while others are really quite ingenious.
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Mar 23, 2017 15:14
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tiistai posted:"Unknown" in this context means asspull poisons like Purupurupikopuyo that causes people to mass hallucinate witches and golden butterflies and oyashiro-sama, not "unknown" as in something that hasn't been explicitly mentioned before. Everyone knows that "poison" is something that kills you without necessarily leaving external signs of it, although something like foaming at the mouth is obviously a telltale sign of it. There's no need to explicitly explain it. Where did the poison come from, then? If the murders were planned, maybe the cuplrit procured it beforehand from mainland, or maybe Nanjo brought it. Maybe it was found in Kinzo's study which has been mentioned having all sorts of crazy stuff in it. Whatever, it's not inconceivable. Yeah, it's like... if you said someone is killed by poison, fair enough. That's a very solid mystery sort of way to kill someone. If you run across a burned-up body, and then the solution ends up being that there's a new kind of poison nobody has ever heard of that actually causes the body to set on fire when you take it, that's not a mystery. It could be some other kind of story, but there's no way you can expect a reasonable person to figure that out before the book tells you about it, and the central factor of a mystery is that it's a puzzle intended for the reader to figure out. The ideal for a mystery writer is that you don't actually figure it out yourself, but that upon reading the solution, your first reaction is "OF COURSE, I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT, IT'S SO OBVIOUS NOW". It can be hard to hit that mark, and writers miss in both directions, but that's what they are (or should be) aiming for. Knox's rules are really a bit tongue-in-cheek. If you had to break it down, the only two REAL rules are: 1) Play fair with your audience and 2) Don't overuse cliches, especially when they don't make any drat sense.
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Mar 23, 2017 15:54
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resurgam40 posted:Jesus Christ. The more time we spend with Berne, the nastier she gets... gently caress me, why did I ever call her "the good one" in my head, or on this forum? Bern's "North Wind and the Sun" strategy is even more refined than Beato's.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:25
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