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  • Locked thread
Skylight
Nov 25, 2011

DIE TO THE DEATH!
SENTANCE TO DEATH!
GREAT EQUALIZER IS THE DEATH!


Eleanore posted:

I don't care what Knox says, the entrance to the gold has to be hidden some way :colbert:

Knox's third: "Not more than one secret room or passage is allowable."

edit: I'm gonna guess that, in order to keep this rule intact, the gold is in Kuwadorian and solving the riddle gets us in somehow. Maybe the key's in the chapel, and we get it by doing the wordplay thing?? (I'm running out of ideas, and I'm out of caffeine...)

Skylight fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Mar 26, 2017

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Amidiri
Apr 26, 2010

Eleanore posted:

I was going to ask that the question is more why Beatrice sends the letter and asks the family to solve it every time, but I just noticed... THERE WAS NO LETTER THIS TIME.

Maybe that's not a purposeful decision by 'Beatrice' but rather a side effect of Erika arriving during the time frame where Maria would usually get the letter?

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012

Shocked I tell you

Amidiri posted:

Maybe that's not a purposeful decision by 'Beatrice' but rather a side effect of Erika arriving during the time frame where Maria would usually get the letter?

Yeah Erika showing up kind of throws a wrench into things.

witchcore ricepunk
Jul 6, 2003

The Golden Witch
Who Solved the Epitaph


A Probability of 1/2,578,917
I think perhaps fiddling with the plaque at the chapel that says QUADRILLION according to the epitaph's directions opens up the well that Battler had tried to bust into during the last episode's tea party section. You enter the well, follow the tunnel, and end up in Kuwadorian, where the gold is stashed. That also explains how Kinzo was able to travel to Kuwadorian so easily without being followed.

I forgot to mention that another hint toward the "hometown" being Taipei is the bit where Natsuhi talks about areca nuts. Also known as betel nuts, the areca is really popular in Taiwan, to the point where it's a bit of a public health crisis. Fun fact: they increase your risk of oral cancer! Smart move dodging that bullet, Natsuhi. I remember a few of my grandma's brothers being really into that. Blech.

BurningStone
Jun 3, 2011
Nicely done. The story even told us that Kinzo demanded that the chapel must be kept in top condition, despite never being used (as a chapel).

From Eva's thoughts during her riddle solution, I assumed it would be some sort of Japanese word puzzle. Since I suck at those in English, I didn't think I had a chance, though I did play around with Kumasawa having river in her name. I tried thinking of something involving people and relationships and got nowhere.

EagerSleeper
Feb 3, 2010

by R. Guyovich

Tender Child Loins posted:

Hey, Nanjo pulls that outfit off better than I would. I actually think Gaap might perhaps be a personification of the old demon spirits of Rokkenjima.

Anyway, are we back to epitaph time? I found it really hard to proceed while thinking abstractly about it, so I wrote it down and was able to visualize the rest of it a lot better. (:rip: my beloved theory, DR LOU) Again, all of this is contingent on two big assumptions: 1) Kinzo grew up in Taipei and 2) the "key" is Qilian, a station along the Freshwater / Tamsui train line. Simply by the existence of Google Maps, this level of reasoning is possible for TCL. What do you think, goons?



This is a good post, and I really wanted to believe in Dr. Lou theory. Maybe Nanjo traveled to America and picked up a cool nickname? Umineko is all about resurrections.


This thread is truly golden. :allears:


My theory for the epitaph is that it requires knowledge of kanji characters and removing certain strokes from the characters ("gouging and killing" certain body parts = removing the brush stroke) and turning one character into another. The kanji characters come from the adult characters' names because the characters used to spell their names in Japanese were spelled out in their introductions. This probably doesn't include the grandchildren (George, Jessica, Battler, Maria) because I remember that Rosa said that Kinzo was pissed that Rosa named her daughter after a western name, which means that Kinzo is probably pissed that his cool kanji-based epitaph doesn't line up perfectly with his remaining heirs. Meta-gaming is essentially my theory. Prove me wrong, Erika.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?


BGM: Melody (instrumental)

"This is where Bern solved the riddle of the epitaph. I'd expect no less from the Witch of Miracles. 'If a riddle is solvable, she can solve it without fail regardless of the difficulty'. How many years did it take to solve this one?"
"...That's rude. I only fished through a few hundred Fragments."
"Heheheheheheheheheheh... You really are terrifying."
"You aren't going to cheat by suddenly saying the answer in red or something like that, right...?"
"...Don't worry. Just like you, I follow the rules as a player. Well, shall we begin? It's cramped here. Why don't we talk over the sea?"
"OK. Don't get queasy, Battler."
"What do you mean, sea...?"
"...?!"



It must have felt like suddenly having the floor drop from under you, sending you into a bottomless pitfall...



BGM: One

In this space, every direction was covered in an endless darkness, and it felt like an endless expanse filled with countless glittering objects. Some people might have likened it to the depths of an ocean where countless glittering fragments drifted.

"Uh, wh, whoa..."
"...Didn't she tell you not to get queasy?"
"If you want the concept of gravity, just create it yourself, okay? Come on, calm down and look at us. Come on, don't we look like we're just fine?"
"...Believe that your feet are on the ground and that you're being controlled by gravity. If you do that, you'll find your equilibrium."

Y, yes, the two witches are standing normally, as though their feet are planted on a transparent piece of glass. I'm the only one floating about like someone in a rapidly plummeting elevator. When I saw that they were just fine, I started calming down, figuring that there was no need to be scared. Then, just as Lambdadelta said, I gritted my teeth and kept telling myself that there was a place to stand here... and that I had to calm down...



"Very good, very good. What's your name?"
"Ushiromiya Battler. Who else do I look like?"
"OK. You mustn't lose your will, emotions, or form. After all, this is the ocean. If you lose your purpose, you'll fall into the depths of eternity and become a scrap of ocean seaweed. Be careful."

I don't get what Lambdadelta is saying, but I should calm down for the time being. It seems that I gain my equilibrium more the more I calm down. Gradually, that weird floating feeling, like I was falling forever, began to disappear. It still felt strange, like trying to stand up straight at the bottom of a deep pool, but it was much better than before.

"...Then let's begin. I'll grab a Fragment for solving the riddle of the epitaph..."

Bernkastel opened both of her hands. Then, like a planetarium... all of the Fragments throughout this empty space began to spin, leaving tails behind them...

The expression 'planetarium' might have been even more fitting... Multiple Fragments were tied together by gold lines, and what looked like constellations zoomed by us rapidly, one after another. It felt almost as though we were dashing through space at an incredible speed...

Then, with tails of light drifting behind them, several brightly glowing Fragments swirled around Bernkastel. It looked almost like she had created her own solar system with her as the sun. That solar system surrounding Bernkastel grew to a radius large enough to swallow us up. And every once in a while, one of those satellite Fragments zoomed right past me.



BGM: F Style

When those Fragments passed right by me, it felt as though some kind of memory welled up inside me. So I sensed it. These Fragments are probably like a crystallization of memories.

"They aren't memories. They're Fragments of worlds. Well, I guess they might feel like memories to you."
"...Then let's begin. Let's start with this Fragment."

One of the satellites in this solar system was slowly sucked into an inward trajectory with Bernkastel at the center. After drawing a spiral and approaching her, it settled down on the palm of Bernkastel's outstretched hand... Then, it glittered brightly, painting over the world with pure white...



"...I remember that. This is when, in the 3rd game, Aunt Eva was just about to solve the riddle of the epitaph, and was thinking it over with this witch inside her or whatever."
"...That's right. And, from these thoughts, she made her way to the correct answer. In other words, this Fragment shows a vital hint for reaching the truth. In other words, it means that this theory is not mistaken."
"So, you're saying we should assume this beloved hometown isn't a metaphor or anything like that... but the place Grandfather actually spent his youth?"
"...That's right. And at the very least, it isn't Odawara."





"That's right... Aunt Eva and her siblings said that it wasn't Odawara. And not only that, it looks like everyone guessed where Grandfather's hometown was."
"...Right. And annoyingly, the actual location isn't spoken of in any of the Fragments."
"Of course. If I told you that, there'd be too many hints. If a riddle isn't hard, there's just no point to it."
"...Uh-oh, that's a hint too. *giggle*..."
"...Just where is this hometown of Grandfather's? We can't even start if we don't know that..."
"You mean you couldn't start, so you stopped thinking? Since it had to be a place where he could have lived, the number of possibilities is limited. Well, this is the toughest part."
"...You were the witch who could 'certainly solve any riddle that can be solved', weren't you? So you took those limited possibilities, in other words, everywhere on the earth, and considered every single piece of land that Grandfather might have lived on?"
"...That would work too, but that way, no amount of time would be enough. So, I needed to take some more hints into consideration to wring out the answer."





"...A sweetfish river running through the hometown. However, this river isn't truly a river. Eva thought of something else, something that could be linked with a river."
"Sure... But if it isn't a river, then why the sweetfish...?"
"...Think. A river that runs through the hometown. But it isn't a river with water running down it. Something that can be likened to a river..."
"..."
"...Behold the sweetfish river running through the beloved hometown. Eva knew where the hometown was, so she could forget about the sweetfish hint. However, since we don't know where it is, this could be a hint for us."





"...What are these 'sweetfish'...? If the river isn't a literal river, then of course, 'sweetfish' probably doesn't mean the kind of fish that swims."
"Yeah. And on top of that, Rosa tossed it aside, saying that sweetfish weren't that significant."
"...And on the other hand, Eva said that it wasn't important for them to be sweetfish, but that it was still an excellent hint. In other words, the 'sweetfish' is a key to make you think of something else. If that something is a different word, but a word that sweetfish makes you think of, then Eva's line about how it 'probably didn't have to be sweetfish' makes sense..."
"..."

From these thoughts, Aunt Eva formed some theory, went to the archive, looked through some books, and 'verified that she was right'. In short, Aunt Eva formed some theory about the true nature of this sweetfish river running through a hometown. Then, she opened a certain book to determine whether that theory was correct or not. In other words, this theory was something that could be verified through some kind of book... Also, after she figured out what the sweetfish river was, she figured out the rest of the riddle very quickly...

"...Good thinking. The epitaph continues on, saying 'as you travel down the river, you will see a village'. At that point in time, Eva hadn't yet solved the three lines starting with this one."



Right before my eyes, the pieces that I hadn't been able to understand at all, began to *snap*, *snap* into place, all by themselves... I couldn't even remember to close my open mouth. My throat grew completely dry...

Is it... really alright for this to be the answer? R, really? Really...?!



"...Correct. And we know that because even Eva didn't know what the village meant until she checked the book."
"Dammit... Just what is this book...?!"





...There has to be an answer. You must not doubt that. If you can't believe that, why don't you cry yourself to sleep, and then just give up and die...?

"...1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6... Oooh... s, six characters... I, I found it. This... is... th, the key to the Golden Land...!!"



"Yeah. And this key... was some kind of word, number, or string of characters... six characters long!"
"...That's it. If we know that the key's true identity has six characters, the meaning of the first twilight changes drastically."
"O, on the first twilight, offer the six chosen by the key as sacrifices... The six... chosen by the key... Six characters...! In other words, it means to sacrifice the six characters chosen by the key on the first twilight...!"





Yes, Kyrie-san has been thinking that way ever since that moment...!



"In other words, on the first twilight, we take a list of characters that's longer than six, 'kill' the six that are the key, and then do something with the characters that remain...!"
"...That's right. But, like Kyrie said, what should we kill the characters from? We don't know this longer string of characters that we're supposed to be killing from."

On the first twilight, kill the six characters that are the key. On the first twilight.

"...In other words, by the time we reach the first twilight, some string of characters already exists?"



BGM: Psy-chorus



"I also thought of the possibility that it's an anagram."
"...Come to think of it, you did say something like that before. But in that case, where do we take the six characters out from?"
"That's right. Since we're taking six characters out, it must be at least six characters long. We need to read it in some way that gives it more than six characters..."
"If we follow Father's sensibilities... I guess it probably is English after all..."
"...If it looks like we're getting stuck, why don't we move on to the second twilight and look for hints?"



"In that case, what does it mean by two characters that are close...?"
"...I see. I get it, so that's what this is about...!"



"So 2, 4, and 5 are left. So what?"
"...Oh, 4 and 5 are close..."
"Yes, I get it!! So the two who are close are..."



"Yep. There's a gap between 2 and 4, but 4 and 5 are right next to each other. They're the two who are close...!"
"...<Good>. Well done, Battler-san. We can't tell whether 'tear apart' means to crush 4 and 5, or to put a gap between them, but I think that's a good observation."
"Then what do you think about the third twilight, those who remain shall praise my noble name?"
"...Since there's a good chance that we're playing with letters, there's a possibility that this is also playing with letters. 'The characters that remain shall praise my noble name'."
"Hmmmmm... That's tough... What could it mean...?"
"...Does anyone know? I think I do."
"Huh? What is it? Tell me...!"



"...Once again, <good>. Battler-san, you're a pretty flexible thinker."
"By anagram, you mean playing with letters, right? That means..."
"In other words, maybe it means that you can make some kind of word by changing the order of the remaining letters."
"Yeah. If so, This theory might be a little rash, but maybe the original list of characters that the first twilight is taken out of is 11 characters long."
"...Well done again. I reached the same conclusion."
"Wh, why's that? Why do you think there are 11 characters?!"
"...We think that 'killing a single sacrifice' means 'crushing a single character'. If we interpret the 'tear apart' of the second twilight to mean adding a gap between two characters, then there are 11 characters total. If 'tear apart' means to crush those two characters, then we can assume that there are 13 characters."
"...After all, from the fourth twilight to the eighth twilight, the word 'kill' appears five times. And then, on the ninth twilight, it's written that none will be left alive."
"If we ignore the part about the witch reviving for now, I figured that after crushing the first six, separating the characters that are close, and then crushing five more of them... there should be no characters left."

So that makes 6, or 11 characters. If tearing apart the two who are close in the second twilight means to kill both of them, that makes 6+2, or 13 characters. There's a chance that the word symbolizing the first twilight has 11 or 13 characters. Wait... it couldn't be that easy, could it?

"...Wonderfully done. That's the exact same theory I thought of. It looks like you were gifted with a lot of little gray cells just like me, Battler-san."
"Hey, quit it. Just doing what comes naturally."



BGM: Deep Blue Jeer

"Oh, sorry about that. You weren't around at this point, so I just controlled your piece for you. Isn't it nice how smart I made you look...?"
"*giggle*giggle*giggle*...! It looks like you'd be wiser to let Bern be the player. Why not step down as the player and concentrate on being the piece instead?"

I joined in on this game on October 5th, after the first few murders. That means the piece called 'me' was controlled by the player, Bernkastel. So, I guess that means it's possible for Bernkastel's reasoning to be announced through 'my' mouth...

...The game I'm watching now is nothing more than a replay of a part that's already ended.
However, that's probably good enough for now. Since this Bernkastel-sama has gone out of her way to solve the epitaph for me. I'll watch closely for now. And, I'll try to find out what it means.

Lambdadelta let it slip herself just a second ago.



...This theory about Grandfather creating the epitaph in order to choose a successor isn't bad at all. Erika and Bernkastel's logic is extremely reasonable. But that's only if we assume Grandfather was the one to create it.



BGM: Minute Darkness

And, in the games up until now, Beatrice threatened us repeatedly with letters, saying that the only way to survive was to solve the epitaph... and trying to force us to solve the riddle. In other words, it was Beatrice's intention, her hope... that we would try solving the riddle of the epitaph. The epitaph is so confusing that, in most cases, the relatives never seriously tried solving it until the threatening letters started to arrive. That's why Beatrice fired the starting pistol which made us take a go at it.

...Why is Beatrice succeeding Grandfather's will after his death...? Like the theory proposed in the first game, is Beatrice really Grandfather's confidant, who's following his orders even after his death and trying to select the successor with the riddle of the epitaph in Grandfather's stead...? If she did that, it would mean that Beatrice really was Kinzo's trusted underling... the family alchemist she called herself in that letter...

After Grandfather's death, Beatrice managed the ten tons of gold and took the title of alchemist. She was entrusted with the epitaph's riddle, and without ever embezzling the gold, she waited for a human fitting to be the successor to appear and solve it... And if that human didn't appear within a set time limit, would that be 'game over'? Certainly, Aunt Eva, who solved the riddle in the 3rd game, became the only survivor and, automatically, the final head of the Ushiromiya family, inheriting everything.

Up until now, no one has ever survived past October 5th except Aunt Eva, the one who solved the epitaph... That was the only case where Beatrice let anyone survive...



Was she so loyal that she faithfully carried out some terrible order... to kill everyone if the epitaph wasn't solved...?

...I must not stop thinking. Don't, stop thinking... Don't just think of the riddle itself... think about why it's significant. Why is Beatrice telling us to solve the epitaph...? Why did she create such a confusing epitaph for us...? If Beatrice makes us try and solve this epitaph that we have no real chance of solving, and by some lucky chance, a 'miracle' occurs and someone is able to solve it... what significance would that have to her...?

I don't know... what this miracle would be worth to Beato.



BGM: Future

We tried looking at it from several different angles, but in the end, we got stuck there and made no further advances.



Maria let out an extra-large yawn. This caused several other people to yawn. We had been using our heads so much that everyone had gotten a little sleepy. Jessica, who had been silent and looking displeased the whole time, quickly stood up.

"...I'm going upstairs with Maria. We'll watch TV or something."
"Okay... I'll go up too. Hey, why don't we all play cards upstairs?"

When George proposed this, Maria completely forgot about that big yawn of hers and started jumping around, insisting that she wanted to play cards. Judging by the clock, it was already 10:00 at night. It was already about that time you normally take a bath and get ready for sleep. Even the adults seemed pretty weary from traveling. We decided to continue this later and went our separate ways...

"Will you play with us too, Erika-chan? Cards?"



"Seriously. You're in such high spirits it's hard to believe you almost drowned."
"*giggle*. That's youth for you. Still, I enjoyed it. I think we've taken a big step in our reasoning thanks to you. If I find the gold, I'll let you have about a million yen worth."
"Wahahaha! Can't you at least offer the poor girl a hundred million! Uhahaha!"
"No need to bother. I'm only interested in solving the riddle. Well then, if you'll excuse me. Good night."
"Yeah, 'night."
"Oh, you aren't going upstairs, Battler-kun?"
"...I'm getting a bit interested here. I'll think things through here just a bit longer. If I can just figure out the list of characters that marks the first twilight, I'll bet the road before me will open up all at once..."

Everyone went up to the second floor one by one. Only Aunt Rosa remained behind, cleaning up the coffee cups everyone had been drinking out of. Kyrie-san and some others had offered to help, but since Rosa had refused this, she was washing them all alone. Since I'd just been treated to such delicious coffee, I decided to help too. I wasn't just doing it because I felt obligated. I wanted to keep discussing the epitaph with someone.



BGM: None

"Nope... I don't have a clue. But instead of the first twilight, it's the tenth twilight that bugs me."
"The tenth twilight...? What about it?"



"Yeah."
"Why is it... that the word 'capital' only appears in the tenth twilight? The place that the gold is hidden is called 'the Golden Land' everywhere else, but only this one place calls the Golden Land a capital."
"...You're right. No mistake. That's the only time any capital is mentioned..."

Even though the Golden Land itself is referred to several times, only the tenth twilight talks about a capital... Is this the capital of the Golden Land, or the Golden Land itself...?

...

"Still, you and that Erika-chan girl are incredible. The way you think really is flexible. I'm already an old lady, and my mind just doesn't work that fast. That theory about the six chosen by the key signifying six characters to be removed was very impressive."
"After hearing that, I can't see it as being any other way, but before then, I didn't think it was like that at all... My thickheadedness is getting annoying."
"That's not true. You have a very flexible mind, Aunt Rosa. This capital thing might be really important somewhere down the line."
"Not at all. My mind's very stiff. Up until now, I've always thought that this 'first twilight' was nothing more than a place one-tenth of the way on a road to the Golden Land."
"...What's that? Sounds interesting. Mind telling me about it?"
"*giggle*. After all, in the line before the first twilight, it says 'you must travel to the Golden Land', right? The next part describes a journey that lasts ten days, so I thought the first twilight would be part of the way through that journey."
"...A journey... I see. "



"Something like that... Don't tell anyone, okay? For some reason, I used to think the capital bit was about Kyoto."

When you say 'kyou', it sounds like Kyoto. There might be some kind of secret hidden at the end of the first tenth of the road from Kinzo's hometown to Kyoto...

"...After all, if the capital of the gold and the Golden Land are the same thing, you can also say them the same way, right? 'Ougon Kyou' can mean Golden Capital."



But when 京 is all by itself, it can also mean Kyoto specifically. The ten-day trip might be between Kinzo's hometown and Kyoto...

"Are you kidding? That's a brilliant idea. And the first twilight is the first stop on a ten-day journey... The name of that place might be the key..."
"For my ten day theory to work, you'd have to know both the start point and the end point. I know the start point. I know the hometown Father loved. The place Father spent his time when he was a boy really is far away."
"...But the problem is the goal... the Golden Land. What does that really mean? If we don't know that, my theory gets us nowhere. I've been stuck at this spot for a long time, but after listening to your reasoning today, I've realized what an embarrassing mistake I've been making."
"...No, I think that's still an interesting idea. A start and a goal, a ten-day journey. And the place reached at the very first twilight..."
"Believe it or not, I think you might solve this one easily, Battler-kun. If you do solve it with your aunt's hint, share some with me. Even 5% would be great. It's a promise!"

Despite being my aunt, she gave me a wink which would've made a man's heart jump. As I helped her wash the coffee cups, I kept pondering the epitaph's riddle silently...



"...Your room is on the second floor, right? I was sure you'd gone upstairs and had fallen asleep by now."
"...I was just searching for something. I thought it might be here."
"Searching for something...?"

Erika unlocked the door and opened it. A dusty smell drifted out...



BGM: Lure

The gaps between the bookshelves were too small for this to be called a library room. This was obviously a room made for storing books, not reading them.

"...So you're searching for a book?"
"Not necessarily a book, but materials. There's something I've just got to look up."
"...You're looking for something having to do with the epitaph's riddle...? Pretty admirable that you haven't given up yet. I guess 20 billion yen is pretty enticing."

I hadn't given up either. Apparently, we were both bad at giving up...

"You're joking. I'm only interested in riddle-solving. I'm only looking for the gold because I want proof that my reasoning was correct. Even if I found it, I wouldn't pocket it for myself, so don't worry."

...She immediately cast it aside, saying that she just liked solving riddles and had no interest at all in the gold. At first, I was pretty sure she was a weird one, and it looks like that impression was spot on.

As Erika slowly circled the bookshelves, she started searching for the book she was after...



"...Let me hear it."

Erika asked this without stopping her search or even turning to face me.

"In the line before the first twilight, it says that one who obtains the key must do so and so."
"...The one who obtains the key must then travel to the Golden Land in accordance with these rules."
"Whoa... You've already got it memorized? Guess I shouldn't be surprised..."
"And what about that?"
"...Yeah. You should travel to the Golden Land, right? Apparently, this made Aunt Rosa think about the tenth twilight... in other words, going on a ten-day journey from the beloved homeland to the Golden Land..."
"Actually, I already noticed that myself. The place you reach on the first day of the ten-day journey. That's where you offer the sacrifices from."
"Y, yeah, that's what Aunt Rosa thought of too. I also think it's an interesting theory. The place you reach on the first day of the ten-day journey. That bit of land, or else the place's name, might be a key..."
"...I also guessed that the place's name might be a key. That's why I'm looking for materials. I want to turn my guess into certainty."
"What is it... that you're looking for?"

Then, Erika's hand suddenly stopped, and she slowly pulled it out... Then, as she dusted it off, she finally looked at me and spoke.



Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Mar 27, 2017

witchcore ricepunk
Jul 6, 2003

The Golden Witch
Who Solved the Epitaph


A Probability of 1/2,578,917
:boom:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBO9-RqsmsQ

curiousCat
Sep 23, 2012

Does this look like the face of mercy, kupo?
I guess we got it in thread. L O R D U is still a bit tough, but... doesn't it just seem like directions, mostly? Left, ???, Right, Down, Up.

resurgam40
Jul 22, 2007

Battler, the literal stupidest man on earth. Why are you even here, Battler, why did you come back to this place so you could fuck literally everything up?

ProfessorProf posted:

So that makes 6, or 11 characters. If tearing apart the two who are close in the second twilight means to kill both of them, that makes 6�, or 13 characters. There's a chance that the word symbolizing the first twilight has 11 or 13 characters. Wait... it couldn't be that easy, could it?



If what the epitaph is meant to refer to a word that is 11 letters long, guess which word has eleven letters? Quadrillion.

In which case, I do so bow to TCL's superior talent at riddles. :worship: Oh poo poo, indeed.

Eleanore
Jun 18, 2013

Amidiri posted:

Maybe that's not a purposeful decision by 'Beatrice' but rather a side effect of Erika arriving during the time frame where Maria would usually get the letter?

I'm an idiot :doh: yeah this is probably why we didn't get the letter this time.

And come on game, just tell us already! Though the bit with Rosa and the ten day journey made me wonder if the thread had been wrong, so I googled 京 to see if it would come up with some taiwan related thing but...

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E4%BA%AC :aaa:

Apparently 京 can also mean ten quadrillion aside from capital city. So by Rosa's logic you start the journey of 1/10th of that... in other words at 1 quadrillion. My only question is if Atlases usually include train stations? Since the answer apparently can be found in an Atlas.

tiistai
Nov 1, 2012

Solo Melodica

ProfessorProf posted:

For those interested in the epitaph, but not interested in Japanese wordplay: The Steam version of Umineko uses a different translation of the Epitaph, and a this conversation between Eva and Rosa is different as well. You may want to check it out.

Just a reminder

witchcore ricepunk
Jul 6, 2003

The Golden Witch
Who Solved the Epitaph


A Probability of 1/2,578,917

tiistai posted:

Just a reminder

To be honest, that was a part that really stumped me, and I read that conversation a few times. I still don't get it. That's the one niggling part of the epitaph clues that makes me feel like I'm off-base.

grandalt
Feb 26, 2013

I didn't fight through two wars to rule
I fought for the future of the world

And the right to have hot tea whenever I wanted
You know, thinking about things, in spite of Erika taking the detective role, a certain fact remains unchanged. The only person we know to leave the island alive is Eve, looks like things will not go well.

RedMagus
Nov 16, 2005

Male....Female...what does it matter? Power is beautiful, and I've got the power!
Grimey Drawer
Does anyone have a list of the first 6 people who are killed each game? I'm curious if any kanji/letters are consistent among the list each time.

Eleanore
Jun 18, 2013

Tender Child Loins posted:

To be honest, that was a part that really stumped me, and I read that conversation a few times. I still don't get it. That's the one niggling part of the epitaph clues that makes me feel like I'm off-base.

Doesn't it have something to do with math? I mean, I might be influenced by the Quadrillion thing, but it says "you shall attain to the power of the Golden Land's treasures", as in "to the power of" like when you use exponentiation. It's the tenth twilight so ten to the power of something that is signified by the treasures, is what I'm guessing. the "once and for the last" bit might be a hint on how to quantify the treasures. I can't figure out how to get that to be 10 to the power of 15 though to make a quadrillion. So it might be another large number it refers to?

EDIT: Wait, I think I got it. The treasures are 10 ton gold, the 13 dead from the epitaph, and 1 lost love. Alternatively, if we are being more literal and taking the two being torn apart as not being killed, it could be 10 ton gold, 11 dead letters, 2 torn apart, 1 sleeping witch. In any way you could count it in a way that would make it 10^24, which in the US is known as a Septillion as a short scale number, but in Europe that uses long scale 10^24 would be known as a quadrillion :eng101: This still does not explain the "once and for the last time" part though :eng99:

RedMagus posted:

Does anyone have a list of the first 6 people who are killed each game? I'm curious if any kanji/letters are consistent among the list each time.

1st game: Shannon, Gohda, Krauss, Rosa, Kyrie, Rudolf
2nd game: Krauss, Natsuhi, Kyrie, Rudolf, Eva, Hideyoshi
3rd game: Kinzo, Gohda, Genji, Kanon, Shannon, Kumasawa
4th game: Eva, Hideyoshi, Genji, Rudolf, Natsuhi, Rosa

Eleanore fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Mar 27, 2017

witchcore ricepunk
Jul 6, 2003

The Golden Witch
Who Solved the Epitaph


A Probability of 1/2,578,917

Eleanore posted:

I'm an idiot :doh: yeah this is probably why we didn't get the letter this time.

And come on game, just tell us already! Though the bit with Rosa and the ten day journey made me wonder if the thread had been wrong, so I googled 京 to see if it would come up with some taiwan related thing but...

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E4%BA%AC :aaa:

Apparently 京 can also mean ten quadrillion aside from capital city. So by Rosa's logic you start the journey of 1/10th of that... in other words at 1 quadrillion. My only question is if Atlases usually include train stations? Since the answer apparently can be found in an Atlas.

OK, it makes sense when you read the kanji that way. Ten quadrillion is 10,000,000,000,000,000, which is 10 to the power of 16. Where does the 16 come from in the English translation? The wording is so weird that I can't quite wrap my head around it. Give me kanji wordplay over that poo poo.

Deckard6
Nov 8, 2012
I like some of the things this scene reveals about Battler. Bern is using him as a piece, so she is limited to things he could do even if they are things he wouldn't do. That means that it was within Battler's power to solve the riddle from game one if he ever put his mind to the task. Instead he was busy perving on his cousins and getting distracted by ritual murders.

idonotlikepeas
May 29, 2010

This reasoning is possible for forums user idonotlikepeas!

grandalt posted:

You know, thinking about things, in spite of Erika taking the detective role, a certain fact remains unchanged. The only person we know to leave the island alive is Eve, looks like things will not go well.

Yeah, Erika is dead no matter what else happens. She has to be for this all to make sense; in order for this sequence of events to remain an unknown that different stories can be created about, the actual truth of the events can't escape the island. In fact, her body probably has to be totally destroyed so that no evidence of her presence on the island exists.

Eleanore posted:

Apparently 京 can also mean ten quadrillion aside from capital city. So by Rosa's logic you start the journey of 1/10th of that... in other words at 1 quadrillion. My only question is if Atlases usually include train stations? Since the answer apparently can be found in an Atlas.

Depends on the Atlas. They often will, especially if a lot of people actually use the train in question.


As for the epitaph in general, yeah, that looks like it must be it. So you pull out some of the letters on the sign, rearrange others, and then probably push those in (that feels more like a "gouge" motion), and the secret passage opens.

I'm still going to bet it's a separate secret passage from the secondary mansion passage, though. I can't imagine Kinzo wanting to go through that every single time he wanted to go over there.

BurningStone
Jun 3, 2011
I was guessing the "gouge the X and kill" statements meant to remove certain strokes from a character. But I don't know anything about Japanese.

Eleanore posted:

1st game: Shannon, Gohda, Krauss, Rosa, Kyrie, Rudolf
2nd game: Krauss, Natsuhi, Kyrie, Rudolf, Eva, Hideyoshi
3rd game: Kinzo, Gohda, Genji, Kanon, Shannon, Kumasawa
4th game: Eva, Hideyoshi, Genji, Rudolf, Natsuhi, Rosa

Seeing them all together like that:
1st game: all of Kinzo's heirs aside from Eva
2nd game: all of Kinzo's heirs aside from Rosa
3rd game: Kinzo (not really) and all of the servants, who are loyal to him
4th game: all of Kinzo's heirs aside from Krauss

I guess Rudolf is the only one too nice to murder everybody for the inheritance. Or maybe he wanted to start with the servants.

Classy Hydra
Oct 30, 2011

You did wrong, Jack,
rest your soul.

Deckard6 posted:

I like some of the things this scene reveals about Battler. Bern is using him as a piece, so she is limited to things he could do even if they are things he wouldn't do. That means that it was within Battler's power to solve the riddle from game one if he ever put his mind to the task. Instead he was busy perving on his cousins and getting distracted by ritual murders.

Battler, as a general rule, tends to demonstrate better reasoning skills the more emotionally detatched he is from a situation.

When he's just shooting the breeze as part of a thought experiment? It's not out of place for him to be matching Erika almost point for point.
When he's all fired up to deny witches because his sister threw herself on a fire? We get poo poo like small bombs.

tiistai
Nov 1, 2012

Solo Melodica

Deckard6 posted:

I like some of the things this scene reveals about Battler. Bern is using him as a piece, so she is limited to things he could do even if they are things he wouldn't do. That means that it was within Battler's power to solve the riddle from game one if he ever put his mind to the task. Instead he was busy perving on his cousins and getting distracted by ritual murders.

I like how in EP2 he spent the first day sleeping because it wasn't his "turn" yet

What a moron

Skylight
Nov 25, 2011

DIE TO THE DEATH!
SENTANCE TO DEATH!
GREAT EQUALIZER IS THE DEATH!


idonotlikepeas posted:

I can't imagine Kinzo wanting to go through that every single time he wanted to go over there.

Normally I'd agree, but please keep in mind who you're talking about. :colbert: He may even enjoy it.

idonotlikepeas
May 29, 2010

This reasoning is possible for forums user idonotlikepeas!

Skylight posted:

Normally I'd agree, but please keep in mind who you're talking about. :colbert: He may even enjoy it.

Oh, my Beatoriche, how I long to see you again... I must go to Kuwadorian. Genji! Fetch the keys to the hidden passageway!

You mean the tax forms, sir?

YES! Arise, Ronove, demon accountant beloved of hell! Lord Goldsmith commands you!

Pu ku ku... This human 1040 form will present no obstacle.

Sir, I believe that in this country...

Quiet! And now, for the second key: the Devil's Sudoku! Gaap, attend me!

It certainly is convenient to be able to rearrange the numbers as one likes!

And now the third key! The unanesthetized root canal! Chiester sisters!

Inflammation detected beneath molar 16! Transmitting targeting data!

Data link established nyeh. Commencing fire along maxillary curve!

Sir, there must be an easier way of doing this...

Mmmphpmmm. OMMM DSSSSSRM.

grandalt
Feb 26, 2013

I didn't fight through two wars to rule
I fought for the future of the world

And the right to have hot tea whenever I wanted
Yep, that's crazy Kinzo alright.

Lord Koth
Jan 8, 2012

It does need to be remembered that Battler has not been called stupid. He was called incompetent in red, but never stupid. He was always sharp enough to solve the riddle if he really tried, but he's never really applied himself to do so no matter what he's occasionally claimed.

witchcore ricepunk
Jul 6, 2003

The Golden Witch
Who Solved the Epitaph


A Probability of 1/2,578,917
Wow peas, that's so on point.

I also wonder if Kinzo was fine with the ridiculously convoluted process involved in going to Kuwadorian because, on some level, he knew that the secret that he was hiding there up until 19 years ago was really loving awful. The use of the puzzle and secret passage is almost like an external manifestation of the extreme guilt he carried for basically maintaining a Jaycee Dugard scenario going in his backyard for years. God, gently caress Kinzo.

resurgam40
Jul 22, 2007

Battler, the literal stupidest man on earth. Why are you even here, Battler, why did you come back to this place so you could fuck literally everything up?

Lord Koth posted:

It does need to be remembered that Battler has not been called stupid. He was called incompetent in red, but never stupid. He was always sharp enough to solve the riddle if he really tried, but he's never really applied himself to do so no matter what he's occasionally claimed.

Well, that's why he's so frustrating to me. If he were portrayed as the typical cheerful brainless idiot you see in most shounen mags, he wouldn't make me nearly as mad, but he's demonstrated more than once that not only is he intelligent, but he genuinely likes learning new things and applying them, so it feels almost like a betrayal whenever he doesn't elect to do that, bad situation or no. I mean, Bern just demonstrated this episode that he's always had the capacity to solve the epitaph, so... why didn't he, with the resources he had at his disposal? Why the cake bombs and all the other ridiculous poo poo when he was the first one to suspect that Kinzo had been dead all along? It's just a bitter pill to swallow for some.

Artificer
Apr 8, 2010

You're going to try ponies and you're. Going. To. LOVE. ME!!
It is REALLY hard to think straight when you're seriously under pressure. I can't blame the guy.

BurningStone
Jun 3, 2011
Yea, Battler hasn't been stupid, but he has been very emotional. Trying to find a way that nobody he knows has committed a murder, for instance.

tiistai
Nov 1, 2012

Solo Melodica

idonotlikepeas posted:

Oh, my Beatoriche, how I long to see you again... I must go to Kuwadorian. Genji! Fetch the keys to the hidden passageway!

I definitely wouldn't put it past him

grandalt
Feb 26, 2013

I didn't fight through two wars to rule
I fought for the future of the world

And the right to have hot tea whenever I wanted

BurningStone posted:

Yea, Battler hasn't been stupid, but he has been very emotional. Trying to find a way that nobody he knows has committed a murder, for instance.

Yes, that still seems to be Battler's greatest weakness, not willing to admit how messed up his family is. These people are capable of murdering each other.

Lord Koth
Jan 8, 2012

grandalt posted:

Yes, that still seems to be Battler's greatest weakness, not willing to admit how messed up his family is. These people are capable of murdering each other.

Yeah, this is a pretty good summary of the issue he's dealing with.

In terms of the epitaph specifically, he's never really had a reason in the story to solve it before the murders start happening and he starts becoming incapable of looking at it logically. The reward for doing so is not something he's remotely interested in, so at most it just looks like a fun diversion to him and he's already occupied in doing other things - like catching up with the cousins he hasn't seen in years.

Here, a combination of Erika making a huge issue of the epitaph, her hanging around the cousins instead of the matter typically being left with the adults in the dining room, and Bern having piece Battler heavily interact with her have created a situation that hasn't really existed before, where the matter of solving the epitaph is put in the forefront of Battler's mind well before things start going pear shaped.

EagerSleeper
Feb 3, 2010

by R. Guyovich

idonotlikepeas posted:

Mmmphpmmm. OMMM DSSSSSRM.

It's the strangled "OH DESIRE" that gets me. Beautiful. :vince:

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?


October 4th, 1986, 10:00 PM



BGM: Voiceless

Natsuhi could be seen in the study. When she muttered as though to herself, gold butterflies appeared and formed into the shape of a person...



"...So, simply saying Father is in a bad mood and refuses to come out won't deceive them after all."
"Yeah... It seems they grew quite suspicious last year. Because of that, the toxin has expanded and is coiling itself around this study, growing ever tighter..."
"It probably isn't due solely to people being suspicious since last year."
"...That's right. The toxin has grown too thick to be explained away by that alone. There must be a strong will which has suspected Kinzo-sama's death since last year... and is trying to expose it at this year's conference."
"Does that mean... they weren't fully tricked last year?"
"...Unfortunately, it might be best to assume that in the current situation. The typhoon will remain here tomorrow, and the boat will not come for them until the day after. In short, we must endure for another 36 hours at the very least..."
"...Your eyes probably can't see it, Natsuhi, but the closed room barrier sealing this room was once very firm. Tonight, however, it has been worn down so that it's nearly crumbling, like dry leaves waiting for a storm."
"No, the storm is already here. Natsuhi-sama. I propose that we switch from the closed room barrier to something else."
"What do you mean by something else...? Do you mean to change our plan...?"
"That is correct. Virgilia-sama and I will reconstruct a barrier similar to last year's."



"What did you say...? You want to change the plan this far in...?!"
"When you learn that you cannot withstand a siege, you must consider abandoning the castle..."
"...Right now, this room is like a castle surrounded by enemy troops with its walls about to crumble. If staying put means certain death, then you still have the ability to ride out for one last stand and an honorable defeat. After all, surrender doesn't seem to be an option in this fight."
"I'll protect Father's secret until the very end! If it's discovered, there will be no chance for us to talk our way out of it! My husband's embezzlement will be exposed to the light of day, and the Ushiromiya family's honor will be destroyed! We must remain firm and prevent that no matter what...!"
"...Calm down, I understand that. Krauss's alchemy will soon see great results. If we can make it through this year, we'll be able to manage. So don't get flustered."
"But we planned this siege because using the same trick as last year wouldn't work, right? Isn't it the height of stupidity to return to a plan you previously abandoned because it was impossible...?! Just what kind of plan could we make at this point...?!"
"Ronove and I will prepare that. Leave it to us, as creating illusions is what witches do. All you have to do is give us your permission, Natsuhi-sama."



"Did you forget that we chose our current strategy because we considered those kinds of plans and couldn't find anything that would work?! To get flustered in an emergency and carelessly throw away the primary plan is simply foolish!"
"But Natsuhi-sama...! You, right there amidst the toxin, must realize better than anyone else that we will no longer be able to outlast this siege...!"
"...I propose that we try and think of another plan without changing our objective of holding the fort. In any event, as long as we can keep this room sealed, no one will be able to deny Father's existence. After all, you can't determine the contents of a cat box that can't be opened no matter how many people you have with you...!"
"...Well, that is true... However, humans are irrational. It's possible for them to eat into an airtight cat box and go inside like black ants surrounding a box of cake. And I'm also worried about Lady Bernkastel's piece."
"...It was fortunate that Erika-sama stole the show at tonight's dinner. By doing that, she created an atmosphere where it was possible for tonight's family conference to be closed. If you had gone straight back to the family conference afterwards like usual, the barrier might have broken tonight."
"But because of that, the toxin has grown even thicker. After thickening all night, the toxin may be able to penetrate the closed room barrier easily. Whether we keep up with holding the fort or give up that plan, we will not be able to make it through tomorrow unless we prepare a new strategy and a new barrier."
"...Lady Bernkastel may have some plan for breaking the closed room barrier... We can't take that piece called Erika lightly..."



BGM: Stupefaction

"Lady Bernkastel is a fan of Eastern things. In Shogi, Japanese chess, aren't you allowed to drop pieces in the middle of a game?"
"Yes, that is possible. Even dropping a queen from the captured pile right in front of the enemy king is a trump card-like move that would be allowed in Shogi."
"...I wonder... what is that man who spoke of 19 years ago doing? Is he already hiding somewhere on this island...?"
"...That girl called Erika was able to appear by claiming to have drifted here. That man might also have landed somewhere on this island despite the typhoon, and he might be hiding somewhere..."
"...And it's going to be hard to fully deceive the relatives any longer... Why?!! Why have so many irregular things happened at the same time?!! How can you explain this nightmarish miracle of coincidence?!!"

Natsuhi slammed the desk hard, held her head, and cringed at the pain from her overwhelming headache...

"...Lady Bernkastel controls miracles. There's no point being surprised at irregularities or miracles when that person is around."
"It may be true that Shogi is a game where an enemy piece can suddenly appear right in front of a king. However, that is why you build up a perfect formation that doesn't allow for that kind of weakness, artistically constructing a castle to protect your king."
"In that case, isn't holding the fort something we should be doing now?!!"
"If we had a fort that we could hold then perhaps, but we cannot hope for such a thing now."
"It is difficult to corner a king without a wall to his back, and even more difficult to corner one with open spaces in all directions."
"...Think of a mouse. You can catch a mouse that's shut in a cage. However, catching a mouse in a field is like trying to catch a cloud."
"Natsuhi-sama. Please allow us to consider an option. Kinzo-sama will leave his study and wander around the mansion on a whim, avoiding the gazes of the relatives. We will think of a natural-seeming plan for this before morning."
"...Don't you see the danger...? If we're willing to consider such a dangerous option, wouldn't it be better to continue acting as though Father is in his room in a bad mood...?"
"Tomorrow, the relatives will again crowd around in front of the study. They will crowd right on the other side of that single door. After that, just how long do you intend to make it seem like they're having a yelling match with Kinzo-sama?! It's impossible...!"
"We have to somehow postpone that impossibility for 36 hours!! If you tell me to do it, I will!! I am Ushiromiya Natsuhi! The wife of the Ushiromiya family head!! If you tell me to do that, I will act out a shouting match with Father for as many days as it takes...!! Aaaaaaagghhh!!"



But she could no longer see any chance of victory from a plan which involved making an illusion of Kinzo walk around...

Banging on the desk several times, with tears of rage streaming down her face, Natsuhi alternated between groaning from her headache and placing the blame on one thing or another. It was enough to make one feel that there was a curse which made anyone who sat in that chair do the same...

"...This is like a game of mating Shogi, where you are on the defensive. In mating Shogi, the opponent has no king. And you have no way of winning other than avoiding a checkmate for a predetermined number of moves."
"And to think... that I must escape for a whole day and a half's worth of moves... that's just too many..."
"Don't stop thinking... don't give up...! I'll listen to your complaints, so don't have a fit...! That certain will of yours to overcome this trial no matter what will produce results with certainty...! That is the power of the Witch of Certainty."
"You must not lose that magical power. Believe that you will overcome this no matter what...! I'm sure you'll think of a brilliant plan. Therefore, you must not give up and stop thinking...!"
"...You're right... I understand... If I can't overcome this hardship, then no one else can..."
"That is correct. Didn't Kinzo entrust you with the job of overcoming all of this? Kinzo acknowledged that you were worthy of this responsibility...!"
"...Father... Father... gaaaahhhh!!!"



"I understand, I understand!! But, I'm already, all tired out, and I can't stand this headache... Why is it... that I'm crying here... all alone in this ice cold study?! Why... why isn't my husband here for me now?!"

Back when dinner ended, Krauss claimed to be dizzy and went to bed early. Of course, he had done this to get enough rest to ready himself for the long day ahead, but to Natsuhi right now, it felt as though he had just gone straight to sleep and pushed all of the burden onto her. However, complaining about such a thing would mean that she had failed as a wife. Isn't it a good wife's duty to work hard and think of the family first even when her husband is resting...?

Still regretting even her anger at her husband, and unable to determine whom she should be angry at, Natsuhi continued to sob... If only... Kinzo could just speak to her kindly at times like this. Beato searched for him, but Kinzo had been nowhere to be seen in the study for some time now... Perhaps Natsuhi had noticed this as well...

Though she bragged that fighting alone and supporting from behind was the responsibility of a good wife, without anyone to confirm whether this was really necessary, she was now so frail that she couldn't even stop her own tears. Just as Beato was thinking of words she could use to console Natsuhi, Virgilia tapped her lightly on the shoulder. If words of consolation don't come from the mouth of the right person, they can sometimes do more harm than good. Therefore, Virgilia silently urged Beato that remaining silent was the best course of action for now...



BGM: Organ Short #200 Million in C Minor

"Gaap. Please restrain yourself for the time being."
"No, as long as you're here, there's no distinction between outsiders or guests and the rest of us. You may speak."
"...Thank you. Ronove said it himself a while ago. This is mating Shogi with you on the defensive. How does one lose in mating Shogi? It's because their king is checkmated, right?"
"That goes without saying. And the opponent has no king. Therefore, all Natsuhi can do is have her king run away constantly."
"...I see. So you're thinking of that move. Has that time already come?"
"What do you mean? Are you saying we have some sort of move?"
"...It's the thing you proposed in the very beginning about how to hide Goldsmith's death. I'm trying to say that the time has come for us to use that..."
"You mean... having him go missing...?! You mean to make that move right now, during the family conference?! That's too dangerous!"

After successfully resolving all of their problems, they would have to lay Kinzo to rest. And the way to do that... was to make him disappear.

One day, Kinzo would go out into the forest and never return. They wouldn't be able to find him no matter how much they searched, so he would be declared 'missing'...



"You plan for us to talk our way out of this using that?! Using such a move now, when the suspicion against us is greatest, would be no better than committing suicide!!"
"They will probably suspect. This move would most certainly lead to mistrust."
"...However, even if they set foot in this study, such suspicions will be unprovable. It will be impossible for them to capture Kinzo forever after, and no matter how much they suspect that he has died, they will be unable to prove it..."
"Forget about a mere 36 hours, wouldn't you be able to protect Kinzo's secret forever that way...? Of course, it will come with an appropriate risk."
"...If you make this move, you may be able to overcome this particular challenge, but we cannot even guess at how much prestige you might lose for it."
"Even so, this move will most certainly overcome this one challenge. Of course, you must then deal with an even greater suspicion. But you won't die."
"Y, yes, that may be true, but..."
"...During the Great Kanto Earthquake, the Ushiromiya family should have died. However, the mad genius Goldsmith revived it so splendidly that it is now something you desire to protect. So this time, it is up to you and your husband, the new head and his wife, to do the same."
"...Hoh... Is that how you intend to stir her up?"
"I'm not stirring her up. I'm just asking if she's prepared to be the wife of the head... Are you prepared to protect the Ushiromiya family even if it means eating dirt...?"
"I, I am..."
"Then now is the time. If you can last a little bit longer by eating dirt, then chow down as much as you can. You will drag yourself out of this world of suffering, and you'll eventually regain that glory. I, Gaap, the 33rd in rank, promise you this."
"...Gaap..."
"...The fact that I came to play at a time like this must be guidance from the gods of happenstance... I'll keep that promise, Ushiromiya Natsuhi. I require nothing in return. Riiche, the one who serves you, has already paid me plenty in advance."

Gaap seemed quite careless, but she was actually possessed by a strong sense of duty. She was the kind of person who just couldn't leave someone in trouble alone.



"*giggle*giggle*...Just the various magical items that you couldn't remember where you put. I made off with quite a few of those."
"Wha?!! So it really was your fault that I could never find those...!!"



"...This is the sort of magic or plan that I can give you. I can hide Goldsmith away in a world where no one will be able to find him. Let me know the instant you need this magic. Until then, you may think of another, safer plan."
"True. Having an option open to you leaves you with a little peace of mind. Without any peace of mind, you cannot think up a brilliant plan."
"Natsuhi-sama. The night is not short. Let's leave Gaap's plan as a final trump card and iron out our plan for the time being. Please give us permission. Furthermore, please give us the trust, magical power, and certain conviction needed to succeed without fail."
"If you believe, I will make that come true. If you doubt, I will make that come true. You must make your own future."
"..."



Hiding this final trump card in her heart, Natsuhi decided that she would grope around for a different plan until the last second. After all, this long, long night had only just begun... Bernkastel and her piece had just as long a time to prepare as Natsuhi did...



BGM: None

"I see, so that's what 'gouge' meant after all. Once again, my reasoning was correct."

The reaction this last time was clearly different from the previous ones, making it feel as though some sort of device had activated. However, as far as a quick glance could tell, there was no dramatic change, such as an entrance of some sort opening. Apparently, they would need to do just a little more before they could find it...

"You're incredible. After all this, if we really do find the gold, we'll have to split it together."
"Enjoying the intellectual stimulation is enough for me. The only thing I like is solving riddles. Proof that I was right is all I need for a reward."

She shrugged it off, saying that just seeing the gold would be enough. Then she crouched down, peering fixedly at the lock mechanism. It's no exaggeration at all... to say that this girl really loves solving riddles. Her fondness for treasure hunting is fueled by a romanticism regarding the process of finding hidden things, and she has no interest whatsoever in getting the treasure for herself and becoming a billionaire or whatever...

"...I see. You really think such a device would fool me..."



As she said this to the device she had exposed, she grinned at it. That smile had a bit of triumph on it, but it was more fully characterized by the small bit of unpleasant disdain it contained. After solving the riddle, she was probably reveling in the pleasure of having won against the one who had proposed it, as well as the way she could now scoff at this person...

"...If we find the gold now, the successor to the head won't be Krauss-san, but you."
"Heh. Well, I wonder."
"...Isn't Krauss-san kind of arrogant? Maybe you could even call him a braggart."
"It'll be pretty pleasant to see him have both the gold and his position as successor to the head snatched away by his nephew in the course of a single night, won't it?"
"..."

Erika was still crouched down as she spoke, her back to Battler as she toyed around with the device...



BGM: Golden Sneer

"Nn, yeah."
"...She really was acting big about her father being the successor to the head. When she wakes up tomorrow and learns that you've inherited all the gold, and that her father is no longer the successor, I wonder what kind of expression she'll have on her face...?"
"...It's not like I have any desire at all to keep all 20 billion for myself. Well, if I get even 10%, that'd be as much as I could handle. We can split the rest fairly amongst the family."
"I'm even less interested in being the successor to the head. I'd be glad to let Uncle Krauss deal with that."
"...Can you really settle things so easily in the end...? *giggle*giggle*giggle*. Instead of trying to predict that... I get the feeling it'll be much more fun to guess what kind of expression Jessica-san will have on her face tomorrow and what kind of sad excuses she'll try to make."
"...You... really have a bad personality."
"Oh? Couldn't you reason that out from the time you learned that I liked solving riddles...?"



"...You probably wanted to expose the gold Grandfather had done everything he could do to hide."
"Yes, that's how it was at first, but my goal changed halfway through."
"Halfway through? Changed to what?"
"Jessica-san. She butted in on my reasoning, contaminating a pure and noble time for me. That's why I changed my goal into solving the riddle so that I could get even with this girl called Jessica."
"...Hey... are you serious?"
"*giggle*. *giggle*giggle*giggle*giggle*. I'll make any opponent surrender, no matter who. That is my sole pleasure. Do you need any more reasoning?"



...This time, I turned my back on her in earnest. Thinking that this riddle-solving game was pretty fun... did I let her get to me and do something terrible...?

That's right. It was possible to guess this. If the riddle is solved, the relatives will probably get into an uproar about who will be the successor to the head. Dad and some others will probably make a fuss about how I, the discoverer, should be the next head, and some relatives not thrilled with that prospect will probably oppose them.

Despite how adamantly Erika affirmed it, it isn't written anywhere that the one who solves the riddle of the epitaph becomes the next head. Because of this, it'll lead to a fight between those who acknowledge that and those who don't... If I reason out what'll happen next, as Erika did... It will probably turn into a messy fight between Uncle Krauss and the rest of the relatives. After I solve the riddle, will Jessica admire me... or curse me? I don't want to think about that now...

...Erika was still mumbling. Apparently... she had already started trying to reason it out... As I began to feel very bad, I lazily gazed out into the black night...



BGM: None

At that time, I looked at a dimly lit outdoor light... and saw the silhouette of a person in front of it. I thought I must be seeing things. After all, it was unthinkable that someone would have been standing there the whole time, pounded upon by the rain without even an umbrella.

However, the silhouette didn't move an inch, and maybe... no, it couldn't be...

...It was... looking at me. And... it was...



BGM: Dead Angle

"...G-"

...Grandfather...

At that time, I understood. Grandfather had probably... been watching us solve the riddle the whole time. And, he had seen us... as we had spectacularly solved the entire riddle of the epitaph...



Without a doubt, Grandfather smiled faintly. Grandfather, who had never worn anything except moody and frightening expressions, looked me in the face... and smiled at me for the first time. Almost as though he was saying 'How impudent'. Or else, 'I never thought it would be you'...

However, this is the result... chosen by Grandfather's epitaph. So I'm sure... that Grandfather accepted that result. In the end... he grinned one more time. Of course, he didn't use words. His smile seemed to be wordlessly saying... well done...

...I didn't know how I should respond. I couldn't do anything but stand there in shock, ignoring Erika as she crouched down, mumbling with her back towards me.



When I looked in that direction... there was...

The thing he was pointing at... was probably... The signpost to the Golden Land.



I'm sure Grandfather said that one word. I... nodded to show that I understood. After watching that, Grandfather nodded back, satisfied. Then, with a spin of his cloak... he disappeared, seeming to melt into the darkness... The expression on his face at the end... was a truly and finally satisfied... smile.



"...I've found it. That's the signpost to the Golden Land."
"...Huh? Ah, it's facing a different direction than it used to."
"...I see. So it means 'go that way'. You've got some pretty good powers of observation."
"Grandfather told me about it."
"Huh? Kinzo-san...? Where?"
"I'm going. Why don't I take a look. A look at this Golden Land..."

We started to walk. The entrance to the Golden Land was right there...



When I think about it, I was also a head that no one saw coming. How interesting that the one who will succeed me as head is also a person no one saw coming.

"I now have no regrets remaining in my life!! Beatrice, I am coming to join you. Along with a present, the miracle chosen by my epitaph...!"



"Wahahahahahahahaha...!! Wahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!! At the very, very end of my life, I have seen a true miracle!! Beatriceeeeeeeee! I've won this beeeeeeettt, waaahhhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaahhh!!!"



BGM: Happiness of Marionette - Omake

"...Except for its non-corrosive properties, there's no practical way to turn gold into money. I imagine it'd take a lot of work to exchange all of this for cash."

At the end of a crude underground tunnel, in a VIP room which was so beautiful that it seemed improper, there was a pile of gold so large that there could be no doubting its 20 billion yen worth... Erika was calm, but Battler couldn't suppress his excitement. As for which of the two was the correct reaction to show after seeing a mountain of gold... only those who saw the scene with their own eyes could say for sure...

In this day and age, it's said that an average salaryman earns about 200 million yen in wages over his life. And this is 20 billion yen worth of gold. With even one one-hundredth of this gold mountain... a single human could live their entire life without working. What is labor? Isn't it the very point of a human's life, since a person who doesn't work cannot eat...? If so, then 200 million yen is enough to make a single person's life complete. And this is 20 billion yen! This would account for the labors of a hundred humans, no, a single human life one hundred times over...!

Of course, if you still wanted to work, you could. Any money you gained as a result could all be used to play with. After all, you would already have enough money to live for your entire life, no, for eternity...!! No, wait, I mustn't keep it all to myself. I can split it up among 100 people. If I could create a world where a full 100 humans wouldn't have to work for their whole lives, just what kind of world would that be...? Yeah, there's no doubt at all...





"Heheheheheheheheh!! I had her hide the more central parts of it, but nothing wrong with being just a little mean, right?"
"...Sure, do that as much as you like. I'm not interested in the micro details about what kind of riddle it was or what kind of answer it had. The important thing is that as a result, 10 tons of gold were discovered."

The gold was discovered in the 3rd game as well, by Aunt Eva. Aunt Rosa had also witnessed it. However, the two of them hadn't spoken of the gold's discovery to anyone. In other words, there was a chance that the gold's discovery was a cat-box truth kept between the two of them.

In other words, it was possible that the gold didn't exist and was just an illusion...!

"However, 'I' have finally found it... The cat box... has been opened...!"
"It'd be a waste of time to do that 'repeat it' game, so I'll give you a little bonus."



"...Alright, got it. I'll accept that this gold exists. However, there are still some things I can't accept!"
"...Of course. You met with him, didn't you? With Kinzo."
"*giggle*giggle*! Even though Kinzo's supposedly an illusion, you met with him just a second ago, didn't you? *giggle*giggle*, I guess that really was magic, wasn't it?!"
"Ridiculous. 'I' didn't exchange any words with Grandfather. I only felt as though Grandfather and I had exchanged words. Give it a rest. The same move won't work again!"
"In that case, your blue truth, if you please!"



"As a result, I mistakenly thought that I'd had some sort of conversation with Grandfather."
"...Blue truth, effective. Well, I did say the exact same thing in blue."
"So? Did it work? Where's your counter with the red truth...?!"
"I have none. At least, not now, okay? *giggle*giggle*giggle*giggle*giggle*!!"



BGM: None

...Now that we'd found it, there was no covering it up. I faintly thought about keeping this discovery a secret. However, Erika wanted to prove that her own reasoning was correct by announcing this fact to everyone.

She really is an intellectual rapist... just as she says. The puzzle-solving game is what's important to her, and she doesn't intend to take any responsibility for what happens after the riddle is solved. A riddle is sort of like a lock. Locks exist to be locked. And they're only significant when they're locked. Therefore, there has to be some sort of reason for exposing that sort of thing. However, this girl has set the exposing itself as her final goal, and she doesn't plan on taking responsibility for anything that happens later.



BGM: Deep Blue Jeer

She won't keep this discovery secret. She'll definitely announce it to brag about her success. Then, she'll call a real storm down upon this island. I won't be able to keep this covered up... Then in that case, there's nothing to do except announce this fact fairly. I can't imagine what will happen after that.

As she grinned, Erika muttered to herself. She must have been predicting the uproar the relatives would soon bring about. To her, imagining that was much sweeter than 20 billion yen in gold...



Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Mar 28, 2017

ArashiKurobara
Mar 22, 2013


Beatrice. Beatrice you are not Sailor Moon stop that.

Telum
Apr 17, 2013

I am protector of the innocent! I am the light in the darkness! I am truth! Ally to good! Nightmare to you!

Are Natsuhi's and Virgilia's icons also a page up apart? :v:

quote:

: "If it's discovered, there will be no chance for us to talk our way out of it! My husband's embezzlement will be exposed to the light of day, and the Ushiromiya family's honor will be destroyed! We must remain firm and prevent that no matter what...!"

e: v He got it from solving the previous Head's riddle, obviously.

Telum fucked around with this message at 14:40 on Mar 28, 2017

idonotlikepeas
May 29, 2010

This reasoning is possible for forums user idonotlikepeas!

ProfessorProf posted:

The puzzle-solving game is what's important to her, and she doesn't intend to take any responsibility for what happens after the riddle is solved. A riddle is sort of like a lock. Locks exist to be locked. And they're only significant when they're locked. Therefore, there has to be some sort of reason for exposing that sort of thing. However, this girl has set the exposing itself as her final goal, and she doesn't plan on taking responsibility for anything that happens later.

Bah! An unlocked lock is just as significant; if you couldn't unlock it, you might as well just bury the door instead. People only put locks on things so they can be opened later.


Now that we have confirmation of the gold in red... I have to wonder where Kinzo got it from? It sure as hell wasn't witches! Maybe some kind of massive robbery, but who has that much gold to begin with?

resurgam40
Jul 22, 2007

Battler, the literal stupidest man on earth. Why are you even here, Battler, why did you come back to this place so you could fuck literally everything up?

ProfessorProf posted:

"...You... really have a bad personality."
"Oh? Couldn't you reason that out from the time you learned that I liked solving riddles...?"



She really is an intellectual rapist... just as she says. The puzzle-solving game is what's important to her, and she doesn't intend to take any responsibility for what happens after the riddle is solved. A riddle is sort of like a lock. Locks exist to be locked. And they're only significant when they're locked. Therefore, there has to be some sort of reason for exposing that sort of thing. However, this girl has set the exposing itself as her final goal, and she doesn't plan on taking responsibility for anything that happens later.

As she grinned, Erika muttered to herself. She must have been predicting the uproar the relatives would soon bring about. To her, imagining that was much sweeter than 20 billion yen in gold...





:sigh: Really? That's how we're translating this, oh translation team? I gather the intent of the language here- of someone who likes exposing secrets that others want to hide- but do you really want to cheapen that word by using it in this way? I don't know that I'm comfortable here with that. But still... horrible person is horrible, as expected of the pawn of the increasingly capricious witch of miracles.

So the gold is real, as proclaimed in red... and will become a real problem, if how such extravagant wealth is usually portrayed in fiction is any indication- particularly detective fiction. The more valuable the riches are, the greater its "curse"... and the more blood pools around it. Congrats, Battler?

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risky business
Oct 9, 2012

Barns?

ArashiKurobara posted:



Beatrice. Beatrice you are not Sailor Moon stop that.

I'm not sure which I like imagining more: Beatrice making Sailor Moon cosplay replicas that contain actual magic, or Beatrice just straight up stealing all of Usagi's stuff.

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