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resurgam40 posted:
I believe that's what it actually says in Japanese. Ericka's the loving worst, Ericka's the loving best.
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Mar 28, 2017 17:06
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Really? That's how we're translating this, oh translation team? I gather the intent of the language here- of someone who likes exposing secrets that others want to hide- but do you really want to cheapen that word by using it in this way? I don't know that I'm comfortable here with that. But still... horrible person is horrible, as expected of the pawn of the increasingly capricious witch of miracles. 
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resurgam40 posted:
Yeah, you can't put this one on the translation team being edgy. That's just what she calls herself.
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Mar 28, 2017 17:10
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Yeah, it makes my skin crawl. But I suppose that's the point.
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Mar 28, 2017 17:14
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The image song I heard for her is even called Intellectual rapist.
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Mar 28, 2017 17:38
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Yeah the use of the word in that context isn't to cheapen the meaning, but to show how loving awful Erika is.
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Mar 28, 2017 17:42
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I generally think they could have gotten along fine without using that word in this context, and the writing would have improved for it, but, well... I guess if you're going to use that title for someone, it's probably on the right person.
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Mar 28, 2017 17:44
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Another remind of Bern's origin, of course she likes Eastern things, she was a miko after all.
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Mar 28, 2017 17:45
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Aisu posted:I'm not sure which I like imagining more: Beatrice making Sailor Moon cosplay replicas that contain actual magic, or Beatrice just straight up stealing all of Usagi's stuff. Not to ruin the magic, but in this context, isn't Beatrice just a coping method for Natsuhi being stressed beyond belief? In other words, Natsuhi is the Sailor Moon cosplayer! Maybe Jessica doesn't have to worry so much about her mom finding out about her after school activities after all.
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Mar 28, 2017 17:47
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Went and looked it up out of curiosity - the phrase is 知的強姦者, for which 'intellectual rapist' is a direct, literal translation. (For accuracy's sake, my dictionary doesn't actually list 強姦者 as rapist, but 強姦 is rape and 者 is person/'someone who does [x]', so there you go.) Horrible phrase for a horrible girl, pretty much.
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Mar 28, 2017 17:54
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Erika's stupid title seems to be there to make it clear that she's not intended to be heroic or whatever you want to call it, just some wandering enigma that's exposing everyone's secrets regardless of who's toes get stepped on in the process. That's what I'm gathering from it anyway, it's still a pretty dumb phrasing for it that raises and eyebrow or ten.
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Mar 28, 2017 17:57
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Eleanore posted:Not to ruin the magic, but in this context, isn't Beatrice just a coping method for Natsuhi being stressed beyond belief? In other words, Natsuhi is the Sailor Moon cosplayer! Maybe Jessica doesn't have to worry so much about her mom finding out about her after school activities after all. I... I don't think this ruins it I think this might make it even better.
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Mar 28, 2017 18:03
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Eleanore posted:Not to ruin the magic, but in this context, isn't Beatrice just a coping method for Natsuhi being stressed beyond belief? In other words, Natsuhi is the Sailor Moon cosplayer! Maybe Jessica doesn't have to worry so much about her mom finding out about her after school activities after all. Natsuhi cosplaying as Moon? Now, that's just silly. Look at the ponytail. Natsuhi cosplays Jupiter, and part of her current coping is imagining finally having partners for the group cosplay she's been wanting to do forever.
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Mar 28, 2017 18:07
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Aisu posted:Natsuhi cosplaying as Moon? Now, that's just silly. Actually. I just remembered a second ago. ... Natsuhi is voiced by Emi Shinohara, IIRC. Who was also the original voice of Sailor Jupiter. (And for what it's worth, Beatrice's voice actress, Sayaka Ohara, is the remake Sailor Neptune.)
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Mar 28, 2017 18:14
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Eleanore posted:Not to ruin the magic, but in this context, isn't Beatrice just a coping method for Natsuhi being stressed beyond belief? In other words, Natsuhi is the Sailor Moon cosplayer! Maybe Jessica doesn't have to worry so much about her mom finding out about her after school activities after all. There is fanart of Natsuhi looking embarrassed in SM cosplay while Beato and Gaap laugh in the corner Alas, I no longer have it E: do not gis Seacats fanart
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Mar 28, 2017 18:31
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Erika is the worst.ArashiKurobara posted:
#letbeatricebesailormoon ArashiKurobara posted:Actually. I just remembered a second ago. That's actually pretty cool! Never knew about that.
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Mar 28, 2017 18:35
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Semantics aside,idonotlikepeas posted:Now that we have confirmation of the gold in red... I have to wonder where Kinzo got it from? It sure as hell wasn't witches! Maybe some kind of massive robbery, but who has that much gold to begin with? I've honestly never thought too hard about the origin of the gold. The "official" story, according to Battler, goes like this: ProfessorProf posted:Grandfather then went on and on about how he continued to research alchemy and techniques for summoning demons in order to become a great magician... And the entity summoned as the result of the demon-calling ceremony was the Golden Witch Beatrice. He then said that he made a contract where, in exchange for his own soul, he would receive fortune and honor. The witch then granted Grandfather 10 tons of gold. Grandfather used this gold as collateral to prepare a vast quantity of funds, and then used that to multiply his wealth by several times and revive the Ushiromiya family... Was Beatrice 1.0 a real person? How did she get her hands on that much gold? Why would she give it to Kinzo? How was the gold transported to Rokkenjima? If she was real, she existed during WW2, since they say Kinzo multiplied his fortune by getting in good with post-war investments. If her name and basic appearance in the portrait is to be trusted, then she was Western, maybe Swiss or German. Or Italian, to really cement the Dante references in this work. Probably the latter, considering the pronunciation of her name. So maybe Beatrice was an aristocratic refugee from Italy who got on Mussolini's bad side and didn't want the gold traced back to her so she dumped it on Kinzo. She transported the gold to Japan or somewhere in the Pacific theater using Alternately, Kinzo met Beatrice while abroad—did they mention he was in the army? I can't remember—and orchestrated the transport to Rokkenjima with her. Either she gave him the gold to essentially wash her hands of something troublesome, or did it for more altruistic reasons. I think it's too early to tell.
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Mar 28, 2017 18:53
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So we know that the gold exists. That doesn't say that it belonged to Kinzo or that it's up for grabs now, though. Maybe he has loans with it as the collateral, and of course after Krauss's brilliant handling of the funds they can't repay those. Also Natsuhi making excuses for Krauss is always funny. Sure, he really needs his sleep for the next day when he will continue to make you do all the work of faking your way out of his terrible business choices. I wonder how long it would take Krauss to waste 20 billion yen of gold. Maybe someone would sell him some magic beans that are guaranteed to triple his money, at a low low buy in of 20 billion. Such value!
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Mar 28, 2017 19:47
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Tender Child Loins posted:I think it's too early to tell. You could be right, but remember that we are already in the answer arc after all. Eventually R07 will just tell you the solution.
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Mar 28, 2017 20:05
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Ok, so I decided to throw something together since I wanted a visual: Here's all our round 1 murder victims, along with when they died and how many times they died. Notice something interesting? Rudolf gets killed 3/4 times, but the one time he doesn't get killed, Kanon, Kinzo, and Kumasawa (all one hit wonders) all get bumped off. If we're going off the "cross off letters" idea, what characters do all 3 of those people have that are found in Rudolf's name? I'm assuming it's Kanji related, so I'd have to dig around and try to learn that in order to proceed further, but I hope I'm on the right trail. But there's a catch. Kinzo is already dead, so do we ignore him as a sacrifice? And does that then mean with Kanon & Kumasawa, we only need 5 to get the correct set of letters?
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Mar 28, 2017 20:32
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But the epitaph just got solved in-game without anyone having to die first.
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Mar 28, 2017 20:46
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resurgam40 posted:
That's basically the same way she says it in japanese and also in the other translation. Erika is a bad person.
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Mar 29, 2017 03:37
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 October 4th, 1986, 10:46 PM  The sudden sound of someone banging fiercely on the door brought Natsuhi to her senses. She had probably nodded off in the study while planning how they would overcome the next day. But... what could it be...? At a time like this... More importantly, the knock itself was strange. If someone had tried to contact her, they could have just used the internal phone line. She had told them that she would be here. Realizing that something strange was going on, Natsuhi shook her head one more time, completely throwing off her drowsiness.  BGM: Golden Sneer It was Eva's voice. What is this? I thought I told them to lock the doors and windows of the mansion tightly after everyone left for the guesthouse. So why is Eva here...?! Natsuhi ran up to the door, responded with a small knock, and spoke through the door in a quiet voice.  "...What is it? You're too noisy." "Natsuhi nee-san...?! Why are you in Father's study at this hour?!" "...I told you to be quiet! Have you forgotten that the head likes peace and silence more than anything else...?!" "Now's not the time to be saying that!! Stop harping on that and open up quickly!! Bring Father out!!" "The head just went to sleep! I don't know what business you have, but I will listen to it tomorrow!" "I don't have any business with you!! Just open up right now!!" This is bad... If I open the door, Eva will probably throw herself forwards and rush into the study. Now, I can't even open this door...! At that moment, the phone suddenly rang. I, it's alright. Both of the keys to the study are here. No one can open this door...! Natsuhi inched away from the door and grabbed the receiver...  "H, hello!! It's Natsuhi!" It was from Krauss. His tone was strained. What in the world happened...?! "It seems that Battler-kun and the guest called Erika... solved the witch's epitaph and found the gold." "Huh? Is, is that true?!" "Right now, Eva-san is just outside the door, yelling at me to open it...! If I open it now, she might push her way into the study...!!" "...I, I understand. I will go there too. Don't worry about Eva. Just stay there and don't do anything...! I'll give you a signal once I've gotten Eva away from the door, so leave as soon as you hear that. Ready...?!"Right after that, Krauss came up the staircase, accompanied by Genji. A heated debate started between him and Eva. "Open up!" "No, calm down." In the middle of that, there was a small knock as a signal. Krauss had skillfully pushed Eva away from the door and distracted her.  Eva noticed this, and her face twisted in disappointment, but the heavy sound of the auto-lock had already rung out, and the door had been sealed.  "The gold of the epitaph has been found! It's only natural that we should inform Father...!! Or else what? Is there some reason you can't tell Father about this?!" "Father gave strict orders that he not be awakened--no matter what--after he went to bed. Following those orders is the duty of the head's representative. Isn't that right, Genji-san?" "...Yes. The Master's sleep must not be disturbed, no matter the circumstances." "Even that rule depends on the time and circumstances, doesn't it...?!! I mean, the epitaph was solved!! Father has a right to know straight away!" "Of course, the two of us will report on everything to the head tomorrow. That's our duty as the head's representatives." "I don't care about that!! Come on, just open this door!! Let me see Father!! Father, Father, can you hear me? It's Eva!! Please open up!! Owowow, let go of me...!! Th, that hurts...!!" "We're telling you to listen to us...! Don't knock on the door so loudly...!!" "Ouch, owowowowow...!! Let go, let go of me!!" "Krauss-sama, Eva-sama. The Master is sleeping. Please refrain from disturbing him any further...!"When Genji spoke firmly, the two finally ceased their scuffle. It seemed that Genji, the one who had spoken for Kinzo since they were very young, still possessed an air of dignity strong enough to handle both Krauss and Eva... Eva put her argument aside for the time being. She could worry about that after seeing the gold with her own eyes. Eva hadn't seen it for herself either. Natsuhi and the others had managed to deal with this crisis somehow. However, the move of the demons, which would sneer upon their efforts, had already begun...  BGM: Organ Short #200 Million in C Minor  "Yes. Though he had a lot of help from that Erika girl, Battler was the one who reached the answer. Erika has proclaimed that she will abandon her rights to the Golden Land. Therefore, Battler is the one who reached the Golden Land." "...Fate can be truly interesting. To think that Battler-sama would reach that place..." "What will you do, Beato? You made a promise to stop the ceremony if anyone solved the epitaph's riddle." "Yes. That was the deal." "...That was the deal. Hmm." "Apparently, Battler-sama does not intend to become the master of the Golden Land. It now seems that no one will become our master." "That is also fate. It has been several decades since we first manifested in the human world through our bond with Lord Goldsmith. It was all very fun." "...Come on, Lia, you sound like an old lady. So, what're we going to do? According to Riiche and Goldsmith's rules, now that Battler's solved the epitaph and decided not to become our master, we've been relieved from duty, right?" "That's true. I have no regrets at all. I've been prepared to be kicked down into Cocytus all this time." "Wait. We can't let that happen. You might not have any regrets, but I will keep on serving Natsuhi. To let ourselves be relieved from duty just because Battler solved the epitaph would be quite irresponsible. Witches aren't allowed to break contracts, but they also must not fail to show gratitude." "...True. We should serve her until the family conference ends." "In that case, you won't be relieved from duty for a while either, Lord Goldsmith. Perhaps you should wait until you've overcome this family conference safely, said goodbye to Natsuhi-sama at the very least, and if possible, rewarded her for all her efforts." "...Hmm. She has done well supporting my foolish son." "Aren't you a fallen angel with one of its wings plucked off? Just leave the other wing as a parting gift and go." "...Hmm. That is also fitting. Natsuhi might be worthy to bear my wing." "...However, we are approaching the critical moment. Your reward is waiting for you. Try and overcome this test safely, Natsuhi..." BGM: Happiness of Marionette - Omake Regardless of how strongly they had believed in its existence, no one could look at this much real gold and not be shocked... "...To think that a place like this existed..." "I can't believe it... That Dad..."Everyone was stunned by the gold. The first one to break the silence and jump around in ecstasy was Hideyoshi. Letting out an excited laugh, he clung to the wall of gold. Then he felt the cold, hard touch of it all over his cheek.   "...H, hahahahahahaha!! That drat Dad, sticking this much gold into such a ridiculous place!!" "Now that we have this much... we no longer... have anything to fear... With this, we could overcome any kind of trial...! Rosaaa...!!" "Nee-san, Nee-san... We'll be able to find happiness with this, right...?"Eva and Rosa started walking towards each other at the same time and hugged each other as they broke down crying... Ecstasy and shock... wonder and sighs. After stepping forward in front of the pile of gold that caused these mixed emotions, Erika spoke as though she were an announcer in some show.   "I take my hat off to you... To think that you would solve the epitaph within a single day of coming to this island." "...If you couldn't solve it in a single day, then you wouldn't be able to solve it no matter how many days you had. After all, it doesn't take more than an instant for your little gray cells to give you a flash of intuition. Also, I wouldn't have been able to solve this riddle myself. I ask that you praise Battler-san's achievement as well, everyone." "..." "...I abandon any rights to this discovery. I'm already satisfied to have my reasoning proven correct. Therefore, I want to give Battler-san the full credit for discovering the gold. I may be here, but please continue your discussion as though I am not. Battler-san called all of the adults here, making sure that none of the cousins would notice." BGM: Smile-less Soiree  "...Erika. Quit deciding things on your own." "My apologies. In that case, I'll step down as the facilitator of these proceedings. So, who will take my place?"Shrugging, Erika looked around at everyone. After a short period of silence, Eva made the first move.  "None of us have forgotten the deal we made earlier today, right?" "Yeah. Divide it between the four of us, with 2.5 billion for each. And then the successor to the head gets another 10 billion." "...W, wait a second! Who decided that the one who discovers the gold becomes the successor to the head?!" "Hold up, you won't be able to get away with that, Natsuhi-san...!! We've all been arguing based on that premise the whole time, haven't we?! You really think you can pretend that never happened now?!" "...That's right. Weren't you the one worrying about how if one of the servants solved the riddle, they might consider themselves the successor to the head...?" "But nowhere is it explicitly written that that's the truth, right?!" "You bastard!!! We were all aware of it, weren't we?!!" "That's right, Aniki! Are you going to change your position this late in the game?!" "Though it was never stipulated, I believe it was most definitely common knowledge between us. I don't see how you can call it completely irrelevant." "You can't just interpret the head's epitaph however you like!! Where is it written that the one who finds the gold becomes the successor?! The epitaph was decided upon by the head. You have no right to decide these things for yourselves!!" "...Calm down, Natsuhi." "How could I calm down?! I certainly find it very impressive that Battler-kun solved the epitaph! I don't care what kind of reward he gets. However, saying that reward should be half of everything here is clearly a stretch, and you won't get away with the argument that the discoverer is the next head...!!" "Th, that's low, Natsuhi nee-san...! This is completely different from what you were saying earlier today...!" "I agree! Though it was never stipulated, the fact that the guy who solves the epitaph becomes the next head has always been the greatest unwritten assumption between us...! It's not fair if you start complaining about that at the last second, right? Yeah, it isn't fair!!" "No way!! That's low, Natsuhi-san! We were talking about this on and on earlier, right?! Are you saying that whole conversation today was a bunch of bull?! That's just not right!!" "Why don't we just vote on it?!! Battler-kun, the one who found the gold, is the successor to the head! My husband and I have no objections!! What about you, Rudolf and Kyrie-san? Rosa?!" "No objections here. Nice going, Battler!!" "I have no objections either. Battler-kun is the true successor, chosen by the epitaph. If you aren't satisfied, then why don't we just ask Father directly...?!" "That's right. Like you just said, Natsuhi nee-san, Father is the one who wrote the riddle of the epitaph. And he's also the proper owner of this gold." "In that case, shouldn't we talk to Father about this directly? How should Battler-kun, the person who discovered the gold, be treated? I believe Father is the only one capable of deciding that...!" "B, but...!!" "...Didn't I tell you to calm down? " "Rosa and Kyrie-san are right. Let's ask Father!! Your turn is already up, Nii-san, Natsuhi nee-san!!" "Yeah, yeah!! Bring Father out to us!! We won't get anywhere with just you two! Let's begin the real family conference!! Does this look like something you can put off just because he's tired?! If we take this thing lightly, we'll have a massive problem on our hands...! Hey, are you listening?!! We won't get anywhere with just you!! Bring Father out right noooooow!!!" "...How the hell'd I know?" "They're probably always like this on the inside. Heheheheh. Looks like they won't be able to get this figured out right now without Kinzo-san. To think he's being called out to settle his children's fight even though it's been announced that he has only a short while to live. I wonder how he feels right about now. *giggle*. Imagining that... no, reasoning that out will be a treat."The parents ignored Battler and Erika... and kept yelling at each other, on and on... Even though Battler had more or less imagined that this sort of thing happened behind the scenes, this was the first time he had seen it. He had suspected it since six years ago, and he'd been able to get a pretty good idea of what this was like by the darkening expressions on his parents' faces when this time of year drew near... However, this argument his relatives were having before his very eyes... was much more... ugly than he had imagined... That's why he was very glad that he'd called the adults out here without letting the cousins catch wind of anything...  BGM: None It was decided that this family conference inside the Golden Land should be moved over to the mansion... This place may have been gorgeous, like a VIP room, but there was no heating, and it was a little cold. It wasn't well suited for a long conversation. They thought of the possibility that someone might snatch the gold away while their backs were turned, but of course, no one could manage much with just human hands and a small amount of time when it's 10 tons of gold they're dealing with. In fact, it might be said that having this mountain of gold in the background was actually robbing them of the ability to make sound decisions. So they agreed to return to the mansion, in part so that they could regain their composure and continue the conference more ruthlessly...  "Sure, sorry. Did we bother you too much?" "Let us show our gratitude again tomorrow. Sorry for letting you see such an embarrassing side of us." "You said that you refused, but allow us to prepare a fitting portion, out of gratitude, for you as one of the first to discover the gold. Right, Nii-san?" "...Yes. We know what you're capable of. I think you can grasp our current circumstances."20 billion yen in gold isn't something they wanted out in the open. They didn't want an outsider like Erika telling people about it. Of course, Erika had already 'reasoned out' that much. She'd worn an unpleasant smile on her face, as though she'd understood all too well...  "...You don't need to worry about me. Of course, I have no desire to tell anyone else about this. And if I did, no one would believe me without proof. I got to see something interesting tonight. It was quite a spectacle, so I'm more than satisfied." "Heheh, I see. I guess it's not every day you see 10 tons of gold." Judging by Erika's dark nature, it's obvious what she's so happy about. I thought about telling her to just go away, but I wanted to leave this all behind me myself... I tried to head back to the guesthouse along with Erika. However, Kyrie-san grabbed my shoulder. "You can't go, Battler-kun. Please come with us." "Yes, yes. You're now a real successor to the head! You've got to have an audience with Father and have him acknowledge you right away...!" "Father is the only one who gets to decide that!! Don't make things up on your own!" "...Battler. I know it might be a pain, but stick around with us for a little while longer. Don't say anything. Just stay quiet and keep your head down. Got it?" "...Just do whatever you want."It would have been easy to say that I had no interest in being successor to the head. But I was sure that would only add more oil to the fire. Even if I hadn't been ordered to keep quiet, staying shut up like a clam is almost certainly a good idea... In that case, would it really be so bad if they just let me go back to the guesthouse...? Dad put his arm firmly around my shoulder, and I told him it was uncomfortable and to let go. However, he didn't pay attention to a word I said...  BGM: Worldend (solo)  "..." "When you were the Game Master, we'd always get those letters. 'Try and solve the epitaph'. 'If you don't, I'll kill all of you'." "..."...Why did she want to make us solve the riddle of the epitaph? By solving it, we found a mountain of gold. Yippee for us. And what about Beato? Does she gain anything... by having us find the gold? Or does she lose something...? "...As far as chessboard thinking tells us, people don't make moves which cause them to lose something. That means you must have something to gain by having us solve the epitaph..."  "...Are you sure that's alright? Using red like that without her permission." "...This child most likely wishes for it."Virgilia, who had suddenly appeared there, quickly gave me an answer to my question with the red truth...  "In the past, I sometimes guessed that the reason Beato was trying to make us solve the epitaph was that she wanted to make us find the gold's hiding place for her so that she could snatch it away. Is that wrong too?" "Yes. In the first place, the gold of the Golden Land belongs to this child. She had absolutely no need to make you find it for her or to snatch it away herself."Of course. Beato is Beatrice the Golden. Isn't she the master of the Golden Land and the Ushiromiya family alchemist? That totally makes sense. However, that makes me even more confused. Even if someone exposed the answer to the epitaph's riddle, Beato has nothing to gain. No, to the contrary, her own gold might be stolen away. "In that case, I'm understanding this less and less. I understand the epitaph murders. It might be revenge against the Ushiromiya family, or else a ceremony to revive her powers as a witch. After all, she's probably doing it because of some reason or goal of her own." "..." "But what's the point of her telling us to solve the epitaph? Whether we solve it or not, she has nothing to gain at all. In other words, the whole issue of whether the epitaph is solved or not is immaterial in Beato's eyes."  "It doesn't matter whether it's solved or not. In other words, could we say that the epitaph's riddle itself is immaterial to Beato...?" "...You're right. The epitaph's riddle doesn't have any meaning for this child. So even if you take it to an extreme and call the epitaph's riddle immaterial, it may not be possible to argue against your claim..." "..."Beato... Why are you making us solve the epitaph's riddle...? If we liken the witch you are to a pair of scales, the epitaph murders lie on one plate... And the riddle of the epitaph lies on the other plate. For some reason, she's saying that she'll stop the epitaph murders if the epitaph is solved. In other words, the epitaph murders and the epitaph's riddle are worth the same to Beato. Like two sides on a balanced scale. That means that both the epitaph's riddle and massacring all the relatives... are equally significant from Beato's point of view... But Virgilia responded with the red text. Regardless of whether the epitaph is solved or not, Beato has nothing to gain. If she has nothing to gain, then this epitaph's riddle... is meaningless and immaterial to Beato. In that case, how much are the epitaph murders, which lie on the other side of the scales and are equal to the epitaph's riddle in value... worth to her...?  The epitaph murders and solving the riddle of the epitaph have equal worth. As long as the epitaph murders, which are Beato's goal each time, have this single way that they can be stopped, a way that she decided on herself, both are worth the same thing to her. X=Y. And whether the epitaph's riddle is solved or not, Beato has nothing to gain. Y=0. So, in this case, what is X...? "..." BGM: Witch in Gold (cembalo)  "...Every time she performs that bizarre serial murder, she's willing to spend an incredible amount of effort on politely sending an advance notice. And then killing us one by one in accordance with the epitaph without getting exposed. So all of that is meaningless to her...?"I turned the chessboard over and searched through Beato's moves over and over. This is always the first place I stumble. The significance of the epitaph murders. Why did she have to commit serial murders in a way that reproduced the witch's epitaph? If she wanted to kill the whole Ushiromiya family for revenge, it would be much simpler, safer, and more reliable if she just put poison into their dinner or else went around killing people one by one in the middle of the night while they were sleeping. However, on the first evening, Beato sent us a letter that sounded like an advance notice and then carried out a three part serial murder with large gaps in between the six people of the first twilight, the two people of the second twilight, and the five people of the fourth and later twilights. We aren't fools. Once the first murders occur, we barricade ourselves in somewhere to stave off any further murders. Furthermore, we quickly suspect a culprit among us and start analyzing each other's alibis. As the victims increase, the number of suspects decreases automatically, and Beato's chances of success in this serial murder drop closer and closer to zero... All of the epitaph murders... are like she's strangling her own neck, making it harder to succeed in the serial murder. All for a useless ornament... all just for show.  "That does follow. She really is a strange child." "Did you know? In mystery novels, they call things like these epitaph murders 'plotline murders'. I think you can split the possible reasons for these plotline murders into three groups." "...And what are those?" "The first would be the benefit the culprit receives by following the epitaph and thereby confusing the evidence and alibis. Pretending to be dead and mixing yourself in with the victims fits this pattern. As does committing murders that don't follow the epitaph and making the others get the order wrong, so that you can give yourself an alibi." "I see. So perhaps she only made it look as though she was killing them in a ceremony following the epitaph... when she was actually guiding their thinking in a manner that benefited her. That sounds interesting." "In that case, what are the other two reasons for carrying out the plotline murders?" "Another one is coincidence. A crime carried out without any particular intention just happens to look similar to the epitaph, and the witnesses mistakenly think it's a plotline murder. Humans try to find cause and effect in everything they see. If we think we know what something is, then that's how it looks to us." "...I see. That's also interesting. However, it seems a bit odd. In this child's games, there's always an advance notice of the crime given before the murders of the first twilight. Also, I believe you find letters and circumstantial evidence one after another that clearly show the culprit is carrying out epitaph murders." "Yeah, that's right. It isn't coincidence. From the very beginning, Beato has been proceeding with a goal of making this look like a series of epitaph murders." "We weren't mistaken about that. These are clear 'plotline murders'. That's why this can't be the reason either." "In that case, there's only one reason left, right?" "..." "In other words, this child performed these epitaph murders to make someone feel the fear of death?" "At least, putting it that way, everything makes sense, more or less. The grotesque mutilation done to the corpses and the dark decorations were all a show to terrify someone..." "To terrify whom...?" "Huh? Well, us, of course..."After hearing that one line Virgilia spoke so casually, my thoughts clouded over once again...  There are many humans in the Ushiromiya family. There's the head and the one who holds the rank of his successor... Grandfather and Uncle Krauss. The relatives, who have some pull in the business world. On the other side, you have the young cousins, who usually visit at most once a year, and the unfortunate servants, who just happened to be on duty. Even if the culprit hated all of us, they probably didn't hate all of us equally. In other words, they might have made it clear which of those among us they particularly wanted to take revenge against and terrify. If we liken this to a kid eating dessert... Isn't the strawberry on top of a shortcake the part you should eat last? No one tells you that you shouldn't eat it first, but our mentality leads us into saving it for later. "...In that case, the culprit would want to leave the person they hated most until the end. Yeah, similar to what was said by my favorite character in this novel I like." "Something about how the worst way to kill someone is to 'start by killing the people closest to them, make them feel that sadness, then kill that person in the end'." "Oh my, that must have been quite a terrifying novel. How frightening..." "...In that case, you could argue that the people who stay alive until the end are the ones Beato hates the most. However, every single time, the order people are killed in gets totally changed." "...If we try counting up the people who live until the last twilight every single time... even though they do die in the end..." "..." BGM: None "...Let me first speak with the red. Battler-kun isn't the culprit. Battler-kun didn't kill anyone. This can be said of all games." "Then that... just makes it even more likely that it's me. It means the sole reason she had for bringing about the epitaph murders... was to show it to me."Every time, Beato brags that she chooses who to kill next with a roulette. However, I am the only one she never kills. Though she does kill me in the end, she leaves me be until the very last moment. In all of these supposedly random games, there's only this one unchanging constant... "She wants... revenge? Against me? So is she performing the epitaph murders to make me feel fear...?" BGM: Dead Angle "In that case! That means the epitaph murders really don't mean anything to her. The epitaph's riddle is meaningless, and the corresponding epitaph murders are also meaningless. X=Y=0! But even so, she's clearly trying to show these meaningless things to me!" "What could she want from me... which is worth the same to her as something meaningless?! I don't get it!! The more I think about it, the less I understand what she's thinking!" "..."Beatrice, the fickle witch who committed a meaningless, worthless serial murder. Even the epitaph's riddle, which that witch made into a condition to suspend the serial murders... is meaningless, immaterial. And, she's thrusting this meaningless, immaterial thing in front of my face. ...What is it... that you want from me...? Or else, what is it that you want to give me...? My idea that Beato must have been taking revenge on me... has already been denied by Virgilia's red truth. Both X and Y. Both the epitaph murders and the epitaph's riddle mean nothing to Beato. X=Y=0. However, since she's thrusting that in front of me... it must... have some meaning. She showed us the scales representing 'if you don't solve the epitaph, I'll carry out the epitaph murders'. In other words, neither the epitaph murders nor the epitaph's riddle have any significance by themselves. However, it becomes meaningful when she puts both halves on the scales and thrusts it out before us... no, before me. In other words, it should be like this:  A scale with meaningless, weightless things on both sides. However, it has weight itself... and gives the rest meaning. "...It's almost like... playing. Like kids playing rock, paper, scissors."Rock, paper, scissors is an extremely familiar method to randomly determine a winner and a loser. You sometimes bet some sort of privilege on the outcome, but kids often do rock, paper, scissors just to play, without betting anything in particular. Unless you bet something, you have nothing to gain or lose except happiness and frustration. In other words, the two sides of the scale, both winning and losing, are immaterial. However, the very act of seeing which way it will tip... is the reason kids play rock, paper, scissors. After all, the kids are enjoying the communication that surrounds the game, and they aren't purely interested in the value of winning or losing. They aren't overly concerned about who wins and who loses... "That would mean that it doesn't matter to Beato... whether the epitaph murders succeed or not. It almost feels like she's just enjoying the process." "..." "...In the past, I cursed her, deciding that she was a heartless witch who kept murdering people for no reason. But right now, I can't imagine that's true." She didn't do it for pleasure, and she didn't do it to make anyone feel fear. Since she has nothing to gain, she doesn't care whether the epitaph murders succeed or fail. It's almost like... a random game kids would play... "That's not right. It does have meaning. It has meaning for her." "...And what is... this meaning...?" "I don't get it. Even though both sides of the scale are immaterial, the scale itself has some weight to it in her eyes."In the previous game, she urged me to remember my sin of six years ago. Could that have been meaningless too? No. That definitely isn't the case. I clearly remember the serious gaze Beato had back then. Unfortunately, I didn't have a clue at the time. When she saw that, she was horribly dejected. That's right. At that time, I'm sure she even went so far as to say that the crime wouldn't have occurred if I hadn't come. "It does have meaning. It means something to her. And it's something she wants from me." "..."I laughed softly and poked Beato lightly on the head, then patted her head. "...Next time you want to send a love letter, I suggest that you just write 'I love you'. If you make it too roundabout and confusing, no one's gonna be able to figure it out." "...*giggle*." 
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Mar 29, 2017 13:32
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Oh, you bastards. You absolute fuckers. The only dignity you had was that you didn't parade your blinding greed and general failure at life in front of your children, but when one of your kids actually hands you the secret, legendary gold, well, that's when all the pretense drops, isn't it? gently caress you in particular, Rudolph, all that poo poo you said at the grandparent's funeral about "apologizing" and "wanting to be a family again"... and you, Kyrie, your attempts to make nice- it all goes down the tubes when you've got a mountain of gold to consider, doesn't it? You'd happily throw your beloved son on the fire for this, wouldn't you, would consign our Battler to the same cold and bitter path that turned Kinzo into the twisted, mad rear end in a top hat we know today. Just....  I'm glad you all die horribly! I wouldn't blink twice if somebody set a loving fire to your beloved conference room and trapped you all in there!Hmmph. But let us set aside our vindictive rage for the moment. I might have wanted them to die, but you know who didn't? ProfessorProf posted:
The culprit, apparently. This bears examination, because I believe this is the first time in the story where Beato's motivations are examined with red. Once again, Battler's sporadic memory comes up with a fairly solid explanation of motive in the mystery genre. And his reasoning is very solid here. She doesn't want the gold because, hey, she already has it, according to her weird letters... and the idea that the epitaph is some super secret magical ritual is in fact bullshit as well (as I always said it was). But the second part of those reds is interesting as a result... apparently she never derived pleasure from killing anybody although she sure pretended to, and mutilated the bodies certainly looks like she's trying to scare somebody, but all of the perceived targets for her possibly being scared end up dead, so that motivation makes no sense as well. That just leaves Battler, who has to "remember his sin"... but Battler hasn't killed anybody, and the goal was claimed in red that the idea wasn't to make him suffer. So what does this leave? To know. Beatrice wants Battler to know something. Something related to this island... something related to her identity. Which means I do think that she wanted the epitaph to be solved by Battler, and wanted him to come here. But it isn't the gold she wanted him to see, it was the room it was in... she wants the question to be asked of why- not why the gold, but "why the room"? Hidden by secrecy for years, unbeknownst to every one, for somebody to live... or be kept. The answer... isn't going to be good, is it?  (Which, of course, just makes all these horrible people even more horrible that they don't ask that question... even Erika isn't asking, because she's already got what she wanted out of the epitaph. Great detective, my eye.)
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Mar 29, 2017 15:11
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If Beatrice (whoever Beatrice really is; let's just use Beatrice as a placeholder for now) isn't doing this for revenge or because she hates Battler or wants to make him afraid, she's doing it for this reason:ProfessorProf posted:
Without love, etc. Why do you present someone with a mystery? Because you want them to try to solve it. Remember the quick-flashing red text from last game? Kill me quickly, try to stop me, bring my story to an end. The murders are a threat to obligate action. Beatrice wants to be caught and stopped, and specifically wants Battler to be the one to do it. That's why he's left alive, so he can solve the mystery.
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Mar 29, 2017 17:07
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ProfessorProf posted:
 but also  resurgam40 posted:Which means I do think that she wanted the epitaph to be solved by Battler, and wanted him to come here. But it isn't the gold she wanted him to see, it was the room it was in... she wants the question to be asked of why- not why the gold, but "why the room"? Hidden by secrecy for years, unbeknownst to every one, for somebody to live... or be kept. I think this is absolutely it. Knowing what went down in Kuwadorian seems like an essential piece to understanding who Beatrice is.
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Mar 29, 2017 17:36
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I don't think that would be the case. Battler was never aware of the Beatrice thing and has no connection to it as she died before he was born. Added on the current Beatrice stated last game she did not exist until 6 years ago.
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Mar 29, 2017 18:42
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Hmm. Some of those red texts refer to Beato and some to "this child". I don't think we have any red text to say that those are the same person. Also, I don't like Battlers logic. Beatrice doesn't care if the epitaph is solved so she doesn't care about the epitaph murders. Sure, she probably doesn't care if the murders follow the epitaph, but that doesn't mean she doesn't care about the murders at all. Also, the epitaph murders happen regardless of if the epitaph is solved - see Eva's ascendance. Oh, and the red text "beato never killed for pleasure" could be trivially true if it is also true that "Beato never killed". After all, Beato could be the little girl who fell to her death years ago. That would explain why that one wasn't "this child".
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Mar 29, 2017 21:16
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MonsterEnvy posted:I don't think that would be the case. Battler was never aware of the Beatrice thing and has no connection to it as she died before he was born. She did not exist for Battler six years ago. For other people, she still could have existed. Qrr posted:Hmm. Some of those red texts refer to Beato and some to "this child". I don't think we have any red text to say that those are the same person. 1) What purpose would this trick serve? Virgilla's trying to help Battler understand Beatrice so he can fulfill her last request. 2. Beatrice is willing to stop the murders if the Epitaph is solved, yet she gains absolutely nothing from the Epitaph being solved. If the murders mattered to her, why would she let some meaningless condition stop her?
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Mar 29, 2017 22:11
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Dr Pepper posted:1) What purpose would this trick serve? Virgilla's trying to help Battler understand Beatrice so he can fulfill her last request. No, you see, Beatrice is going to jump up any moment and cackle about how she totally got Battler this time and then they'll go back to fighting to the death Any moment 
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Mar 29, 2017 23:31
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Dr Pepper posted:
We have straight up evidence that that's not true. The epitaph has been solved twice, and both times the murders have continued afterwards. Though it is possible that this set of murders won't follow the epitaph, but there will still definitely be murders.
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Mar 30, 2017 01:55
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tiistai posted:No, you see, Beatrice is going to jump up any moment and cackle about how she totally got Battler this time and then they'll go back to fighting to the death We're about 5% or 10% into this game and it's already making me sad, this is gonna be a depressing road trip I can already tell.
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Mar 30, 2017 02:14
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Qrr posted:We have straight up evidence that that's not true. The epitaph has been solved twice, and both times the murders have continued afterwards. It can be true if it means that if the epitaph is solved Beatrice won't kill anyone. Anyone else on the island can kill people after the epitaph is solved but Beatrice won't. After the epitaph was solved in the third game, with the exception of mercy killing Rosa and Maria, Beatrice didn't kill anyone. And we don't know who performed the first six murders after the epitaph was solved this time. Edit: The letter in the first episode does say that if someone can solve the epitaph then Beatrice will return everything. That doesn't prevent someone else other than Beatrice from killing everyone else. savixeon fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Mar 30, 2017 |
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Mar 30, 2017 02:30
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What I like about this series, among other things, is that we continue to feel sympathy for Beato and position her, on some level, as our ally in the battle against the real evil witches Ushiromiya Fernkastel, her OC, and Shortcackle, after the story arc whose explicit point was that she exploits that exact type of sympathy to try and eke out a win, in which she was our ally against the real evil witch, Evatrice. Not sarcastically or anything! Like, I think this is an actual testament to the quality of the writing and plot, that we can have so many contradictory/false impressions of Beatrice without her feeling disjointed as a character.
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Mar 30, 2017 03:19
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savixeon posted:And we don't know who performed the first six murders after the epitaph was solved this time. Sure we do. We've even got a reasonable supposition as to her motive: someone discovers that Kinzo is dead, and she has to kill that person to protect her secret, and then things spiral out of control. It's conceivable she didn't commit all the murders, of course, if you want to assume that she didn't kill Jessica. I'm sure that some more terrible stuff will come up, of course, because... you know, Umineko.
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Mar 30, 2017 04:20
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I did forget that we had already been told who is suspected of doing the murders this time. Has it been confirmed in red that Erika is right?
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Mar 30, 2017 04:20
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It's unlikely that will ever be confirmed in red; the red text is going to try to make us think that witches did it. We may get some blue text on it at some point, though.
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Mar 30, 2017 04:27
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Qrr posted:We have straight up evidence that that's not true. The epitaph has been solved twice, and both times the murders have continued afterwards. In EP3 EVA-Beatrice was presented as the murderer after the first twilight, not Beatrice. And as has been pointed out, this time there's no letter. savixeon posted:Has it been confirmed in red that Erika is right? Why would Erika be wrong about anything smh
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Mar 30, 2017 04:28
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Poltergrift posted:What I like about this series, among other things, is that we continue to feel sympathy for Beato and position her, on some level, as our ally in the battle against the real evil witches Ushiromiya Fernkastel, her OC, and Shortcackle, after the story arc whose explicit point was that she exploits that exact type of sympathy to try and eke out a win, in which she was our ally against the real evil witch, Evatrice. It's really fascinating to look at isn't it-how Ryukishi is so good at the art of the paradigm shift. To present a character and a situation one way through facts, and then to completely re-contextualize them in another through the use of new information and context. Beatrice used to make my skin crawl, seen a a towering and creepy monster for her callousness and lack of respect (the Halloween party still makes me shudder), and yet the more it went on, the more I saw that that Beato was a fake, a mask worn to perform a purpose. It was meant to hide a wounded, damaged figure- she was not evil, she was ill. And even after all she did, her image as a monster is still being rehabilitated by Berne and Lambda deciding to come down from the audience box and show everyone what a real monster is...
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Mar 30, 2017 07:08
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idonotlikepeas posted:We've even got a reasonable supposition as to her motive: someone discovers that Kinzo is dead, and she has to kill that person to protect her secret, and then things spiral out of control. It's conceivable she didn't commit all the murders, of course, if you want to assume that she didn't kill Jessica. I'm sure that some more terrible stuff will come up, of course, because... you know, Umineko. I'm interested in seeing where the mysterious phone caller comes into this story. While we don't have outside confirmation that a call did happen (no red statements speak to that, right?), it adds another layer to Natsuhi's psychological stress this time. Could that person be using the murders to frame her and get revenge? Natsuhi even speculated that Erika may have been the caller, but we know that, as the detective, she can't be the culprit or an accomplice to murder. So it's possible Erika is being manipulated to suspect Natsuhi. As to the identity of the caller, there are a few clues that can help us figure that out. One, their age, which is 19. Two, their dubious gender: contrary to the VA's delivery of the lines, it's noted that the voice is more or less a tenor as far as depth goes. Three, they called Natsuhi "mother." But they can't be her child by Krauss, because we know that she had trouble conceiving during that time. Jessica is 16, IIRC. About 20 years prior to the last family conference, did anything interesting happen on Rokkenjima? edit: I must have misread that update! So the caller didn't exactly say they were 19, but that the crime happened "19 years ago." The only person who would be young enough to call Natsuhi "mother" and kind of fit that range is... George? witchcore ricepunk fucked around with this message at 08:29 on Mar 30, 2017 |
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Mar 30, 2017 07:32
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Tender Child Loins posted:I'm interested in seeing where the mysterious phone caller comes into this story. While we don't have outside confirmation that a call did happen (no red statements speak to that, right?), it adds another layer to Natsuhi's psychological stress this time. Could that person be using the murders to frame her and get revenge? Natsuhi even speculated that Erika may have been the caller, but we know that, as the detective, she can't be the culprit or an accomplice to murder. So it's possible Erika is being manipulated to suspect Natsuhi. Jessica was said to be 18. Same age as Battler but but If IRC was said to be the slightly younger of the two. Erika was just said to be slightly younger then them, probably 16 or 17.
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Mar 30, 2017 08:00
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