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Oh, god. He is treading Kinzo's path, if not for exactly the same reasons: Kinzo tried to "remake" the Beatrice of his youth through "magic" (and what that entailed, I don't really want to think about now  ) out of desire, like Battler is doing now with actual magic (or whatever) out of guilt. Both of these are understandable, and Battler's reason is infinitely more relatable, but goddamn- to take some poor innocent girl and just project your will, your desire of who she should be on her, is awful... and totally unhealthy for all parties involved.Hm. Putting it in those terms puts me in mind of something else far more mundane: a baby's birth, and the expectations that come upon the baby by the parents. The common refrain, when one asks the parents what they hope for in their new baby's life, is that they just wish for the child's happiness, but dig a little deeper, and more complicated feelings arise: that the child will be healthy, that they will get good grades, that they will find an ideal (and hopefully loaded) partner in life, and that that partner will in turn provide other children... perhaps the kid will go into the profession of one of the parents or grand parents, or perhaps another profession one of the parents always wanted to do but couldn't, that they might become rich, become famous... or at the very least, that they won't make the same mistakes the parents did in their youth. So they impress these expectations onto the child, often without meaning to, and complications arise: perhaps the expectations of one parent are in conflict with the expectations of the other, or maybe there is extended family projecting their own expectations, or perhaps society as a whole is pressing down with their own stereotypes and opinions. And of course, once the child finishes self actualization and becomes a young adult, they often find that they have their own expectations of what to do with their life, thank you very much, and given that they are the ones actually living the life all of the other people I mentioned are attempting to dictate, well... shouldn't the final decision be theirs? I'm digressing a bit by now, but I do wonder whether Ryukishi07 is using this moment in the story to illustrate the problem just vomiting your hope expectation, guilt and baggage onto somebody who had nothing to do with any of that, family ties or no. Your children are not your children, and alla that. But seriously, Battler: I get that you would feel guilty about how things turned out in the end, but this is gross. It's gross, and cruel, and unhealthy for the both of you... and it won't help you process your grief the way it should. You saw the example in your grandpa; you know what happens to somebody who lets their regrets fester, and warp, and turn into pain they don't know what to do with. Just because you can apparently wiggle your fingers and reshape reality now doesn't mean that you can fix your mistakes, or make other people be the person you want them to be; even the gods cannot control love or the human heart. And that, sirrah, is what comes of gallivanting around in a cape. Now take it off. resurgam40 fucked around with this message at 15:08 on May 3, 2017 |
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May 3, 2017 14:59
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idonotlikepeas posted:Why would George need to accept "all of" Shannon? Why is it that Shannon would never see Kanon again if she left with George? Why do they have to compete; why can only one of them have what they want? This update is a huge shot in the arm for the idea that they're the same person, because it answers all of those questions. I may have been wrong about that after all; maybe George really HASN'T gotten to second base with his girlfriend. If they're the same person, they're more likely to look like Kanon, and George might not be so accepting of that. (And maybe that's why he ends up dead in some earlier routes?) If they're the same person, they can't both go off with different Ushiromiyas. I mean... they could, but it seems unlikely that would work with this particular group of people. She would abandon one disguise and live in the other. Well... I guess I've been leaning toward that myself, but in that case... why go ahead and confess his love now? One of the reasons I've begun to think of Kanon and how he and Shannon might be the same person, to the degree of making whole, episode explaining theories about them, is his idea of how he can't really act on his own love because of Shannon and her thing for George. It would explain a lot: what the whole furniture thing actually means, his hesitance about confessing to Jessica, etc. But if this is really the same setting, then all of that's out the window: he's going to confess to Jessica and share his own name- Yoshiya. So why now, when they presumably would have the same problem as the other times- that being, they can't very well both go with both people. I wonder... have I misread this whole thing? Were they always separate people, and I'm just wrong? Because if I am, then... maybe my original theory of Kanon being Beatrice holds some water, and maybe... Kanon's frustration is one of the things Battler's trying to fix this go round, to "show" that he gets it now? e: But, urgh! CottonWolf points out all of the thing that showed that the "K=S" thing is right, which means- what the gently caress is Battler even doing, now? resurgam40 fucked around with this message at 18:03 on May 5, 2017 |
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May 5, 2017 18:00
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Cyouni posted:I definitely agree that the evidence does suggest that Shannon=Kanon, and it's definitely possible within the red text, but... No, that scene was from Battler's perspective, and he very explicitly wasn't the detective at any point, and engaged in a whole spiel last episode about how he could have done it. For this reason, can his vision, and what he says to the audience, really be trusted? After all, he also thought he saw Kinzo, a dead person. I don't think we've ever really seen things from Erika's perspective, actually.
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May 5, 2017 18:37
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EagerSleeper posted:^^^^ There's also a lot of time and opportunity to change clothes, too, as they seem to get different shifts, and the island, I'm sure, has a lot of nooks and rooms for a clothing stash. I don't really see how complication of clothing is a factor, because A) anime art style and B) the devil's proof of a lot of clothing stashes and the unreliability of a lot of testimonies pretty much makes clothes-changing a free action. oath2order posted:If it makes you feel better, I just learned that one of the newer Witches shipped me and Resurgam when they were going through the thread. E...Eh? Really? Um... doing wh- no no no, don't answer that. resurgam40 fucked around with this message at 04:28 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 04:23
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Cyouni posted:There stood a self-proclaimed detective who had seriously taken on a 9-year old, seriously fought her, seriously won by claiming sleight of hand, and seriously felt proud of herself. It sure is. Departing from the Sakutarou discussion, I'd just like to point out what a pathetic rear end in a top hat you'd have to be to even want to win against a child. Who defiles a little girl'sz dream and smiles about it? A horrible dick, that's who. I'm with Battler here. Although, it's interesting to note... I don't think it's pain that Erika is drawn to, here: it's the winning of the battle that she wanted- an argument happened, and she won. But if it was the argument, a problem to solve, that she was seeking, there were better ways to get it than some girl with a magic trick, and it's the same with the knowledge of Beatrice and what she can do (why not hit up the older servants, rather than the youngest member)? Erika is pretty plainly an addict, but it's not answering questions or seeking knowledge she's addicted to, nor is it really fighting witches. It's winning the argument. She doesn't want the truth, she wants to be right. All the time, forever. And such people are no good for solving mysteries, because they continually shift the problems and the reading of evidence to fit a framework they've already decided upon. (Something that Holmes, arrogant dick that he was, never did; he was a firm believer in the scientific method and starting with as much information, and as few biases, as possible, and all* of his dickery was in service to that end.) * OK, OK, most of his dickery, as he did like to mess with people.
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May 13, 2017 01:48
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^^ Yeah, maybe! So it seems that Georgie used to be a bit of an MRA in his youth... and even now, there are still some things he says and does that feel kinda... uh, "Nice Guy"-ish, for lack of a better term. Not judging, he wouldn't be the first guy to fall into the chivalry trap- it took me a while to realize that the pedestal that men are encouraged to place women on is really more like a cage with soundproofed bars, and even I slip up sometimes- but weird ideas of courtship aside, he does seem to be doing better now, and "Hey, maybe people shouldn't be judged for how well they fit into social mores regarding gender" isn't a bad take away. bman in 2288 posted:Emphasis mine. This is getting really explicit, ain't it? But do you think he means "Sayo" and "Shannon", or "Shannon" and "Kanon"? Or maybe he's referring to Shannon and Battler, and how they were as kids? But then, if that were the case, he would have said that after bringing up Battler, so I feel that rules Shannon and Battler out. I'm pretty sure he was referring to Shannon and Battler there, but there was something else about all that that seems weird- why would Shannon struggle to remember what made George jealous if there actually was something between them? Like, the promise made to Shannon about the white horse is real and provides a solid motivation, but... have we misread Shannon's relationship to Battler completely? Maybe she wasn't much into him back then... but in that case why participate in the murders? If she really was a "mask" for Beatrice, there's no way she would have forgot... or did she repress it for some other reason? I don't really wanna consider the other angles there, about multiple personalities, merely because of how cliché it would be... so suddenly, I'm leaning back toward Kanon being Beatrice again. Are we sure he wasn't pretending to be Shannon when Battler had his fling with "her"? That would slot nicely into some of the weird things that still surround Kanon, particularly the way he acted when he first met Battler... if he is in fact a "he," of course, which is not confirmed.
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May 15, 2017 17:33
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Hmm, that was a lot more restrained than I thought might happen, the whole "let's try to join" thing... I was expecting some ridiculous image, but they just pressed hands together like a trust exercise or something. I wonder what is meant by them "coming together", though, because like this update indicated, neither of them seem complete, like two masks the OG Beatrice wore- with Spirit-Beatrice being the persona formed by the legends of the night spirits of the island, and Chick-Beatrice being the image in the painting, but... something still feels off, somehow. I guess it's how incongruous Chick-Beato seems so far; Spirit-Beato seems the same as Beato ever was, if somewhat one directional (and without real Beato's weird emotional shifts), but this girl... it's odd having someone so sweet in this story, and if she's comparable to anyone, it's 1967 Beato that fell off the cliff... The question is, is Battler still playing by the rules of the game before, using all of the roles and pieces, or is he changing it up? I guess I mean- did Beato have Chick Beato the whole time and just didn't use her except for a flashback, or is she a new person that just came about because Battler cloned the painting? If she is a piece of Beato's... why keep her around? Is it out of sympathy, something like "Here, have a new life, mind you stay away from any cliffs in future"? Or was she just a mask she wore for Battler's benefit?
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May 17, 2017 16:15
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tiistai posted:I'm not entirely sure what exactly you're asking here, but regardless of whether she's new or - like Genji and Kumasawa insist - the same old Beatrice, creating new pieces shouldn't really be against whatever rules are in place. Look at... well, any previous episode. Erika's existence, in particular. So Neo-Beato could have been created for this episode, is what you're saying, just a new character stitched whole cloth. Or perhaps a personification of a mask that was always there... the thing that Beatrice pretended to be while being someone else. Someone we probably haven't seen the true self of yet.
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May 17, 2017 20:48
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Yeah, glad you're doing better; as someone who had a nasty medical shock himself recently, take all the rest you feel comfortable with- good health is one of those things that's hard to notice when it's here but very noticeable when it's gone. Much like freedom that way, as Battler (?) is discovering...
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May 19, 2017 16:07
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Ooh, you cliffhangin' bastard, Prof! Some really interesting things being said here, like this:ProfessorProf posted:
I think I've said as much in the past, myself and a few others: magic in the first game was purposefully ill defined, but revealed itself as based on not mystical forces, but belief in the same and the promotion and use of it. I remember that I talked about the "mystics" of the past, the people seen by others as sorcerers or wise-women who to them wielded powers beyond ken but were actually just engaging in more recently discovered science that they kept secret; the magicians trick of pulling a rabbit out of a hat is described and directly connected to the placebo effect in medicine. What the layman thinks of is magic is actually just knowing one or two extra facts, as the man said... well, that's easy enough to follow. What isn't so easy, as Ange wondered this episode, is why such belief is needed for Kanon and Shannon to pursue their respective loves; as Ange pointed out, the only impediment that either couple faces, as their relationships have been presented, are the approvals of their parents, specifically the moms (which isn't an insignificant one), and that's actually not so bad: George in particular seems determined to argue for his courtship and if it doesn't work out, they could always elope. (My granparents eloped; Grandad came to Grandma in the night and helped her out a window, and they drove off into the New Jersey night- it is a thing people do.) And yet a problem remains, and a lot of us have already suspected what it is... the problem of having not two people involved, but one. I mean, how would you even spin that? I know George is an understanding and chaste fella, but saying "Hey, just so you know, I've kinda been wooing your other cousin the whole time because I'm actually Kanon as well/I'm Kanon and actually a boy and also like Jessica" (regardless of whether the "other disguise" thing or other personality thing is real) is a real doozy and if kids are ever going to be a thing, gender will come up sometime. What do you even do then, jump straight into ménage a trois? And how is belief going to help that situation; you can't well believe yourself into two bodies at once, can you?
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May 22, 2017 15:06
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"And those who make others believe are witches."
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ZiegeDame posted:Knox's 8th: It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. Ah, but we do have a payoff, don't we; an actual mountain of gold, on this very island confirmed this very game. And we also know about his monetary troubles as well, so I reiterate a claim I made in the last thread: The Culprit came to Hideyoshi and Eva privately, after the children, Krauss and Natsuhi have turned in, and offers them a deal: they play along with the "fake" murder in the shed and control the scene, to the point of pretending Shannon's corpse is there, in exchange for the gold and proof of the elder siblings' trickery regarding Kinzo. They do not know the murder is genuine, nor do they ever know until they are killed. This proposition does not go against the characters of either Hideyoshi or Eva, especially since Eva was almost certainly part of a similar conspiracy last chapter.
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May 23, 2017 19:22
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In a castle keep, in a vault of stone, In a house at the end of the lane, An old man weeps in his door alone, And he sings out this mournful refrain: She will not come back, she will not come back, Though the mountains fall into the sea, And the sky burns to cinders, and the rivers run black, She will not come back to me. 
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May 24, 2017 14:37
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Yes, this aspect about Beatrice feels very important. It reminds me of the other bit about this update that jumped out:ProfessorProf posted:
It's not just to serve, it's to be acknowledged... to be known. To be recognized, by the one on your mind. This is a part of neo Beatrice that was apparently put in by her creator, which wasn't Battler as we though, but Old Beatrice, and an interesting thing to know is whether this was intentional on Beato's part or subconscious.* The Battler who made the promise was hugely important to her for some reason, and she latched on to it like a drowning man to a branch; the Battler of six years ago was the answer to a question we don't really know yet, and when the Battler of this story, the Battler we know, did not know the answer...suffering resulted. I can't really blame Battler for that, it's not like he (or anyone else) can control whether someone makes them the center of their emotional well being out of desperation... but I can blame him for trying to do the same to New Beat as Old Beat did to him. Or Kinzo to Beato, of course. *Meaning, did she mean to reflect her inner life, or was that the purpose of this piece? A thought that occurred is that maybe young Beatrice is a receptacle that Beato poured her girlhood feelings into so that she could forget and be her full witchy self, but there's no indication that that's how pieces work... is it meant to be a reflection of some kind, then, a keepsake of the innocent past she didn't want to forget? Or is there yet another purpose I can't see? resurgam40 fucked around with this message at 19:21 on May 24, 2017 |
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May 24, 2017 19:08
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"...I will... do anything for Father. My existence will bring Father happiness. That is my one and only pleasure. And..."
"What? And what?"
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tiistai posted:Zepar and Furfur are lovely goofballs, you nerd Well, the goddamn loving forums ate my goddamn loving post again, so let me give you the bullet points of my very careful response that is now lost to the ether (it was really good too, thank you internet) -I now agree with you after hearing their kickass theme, and think they are actually pretty cool; I liked the twins from FFIX largely for their theme too, maybe I just have a thing for androgynous, silly-but-borderline-sinister twins; -I nearly called them girls, but according to their profiles, one of them is not (or maybe both of them aren't depending on how many genders you subscribe to), and that led me to remember: - this quote from Ronove: ProfessorProf posted:
-led me to examine sex throughout the story, and how explicitly sexual situations have been portrayed as negative affairs that aren't good for any party (Rosa, Rudolph) and how couples in love are portrayed as happy and not really seeking much affection (though granted, some of those couples are older, but Kessica and George have got to be the purest teenagers I've ever seen), and to wonder if there's a greater message there, -and to question whether Beatrice may be asexual as well, as she(they?) only seem to care about relationships as spiritual affairs, all storge and philios rather than eros, if you will -but it's not as if any of that is my business, let's listen to this track again: https://polsy.org.uk/play/yt/?vurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DeSQO0I5FHoc&autoplay=1 It is a shocking good track; the music has been pretty good so far. I'm still mad about losing that post.
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May 26, 2017 16:29
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"...What do you mean, love?"
"My apologies. That's how it would be put if a woman were to say it. As a man, perhaps one could say it was dishonorable."
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Whew! Rejoined the thread after a time of getting poo poo together, and there's a lot to talk about. Part 15: Self-Reliance: Dammit, the author did it again. Here I am getting carried away with how much of a monster someone is in these "Crying" series, and once again I get blindsided by the fact that Ryukishi07 doesn't believe in monsters, doesn't believe in people who are just born evil and wrong, who just are inhumane for no reason-often they are people so full of pain that they literally don't know how to do anything else besides spread it around. "Every knot was once straight rope," and other such utterances. Erika is a hateful, garbage person, but with this one interaction, she tells a lot about why she is the way she is, and why she clings so desperately to the Red truth- because it is "the Truth," in her mind, and she need not question... and as long as she need not question, she need not question if her man truly was cheating on her, or if she drove him away. Or maybe he was cheating (that might be circumstantial evidence, but there is a lot of it), but loved her still in some way- a love that she poisoned with doubt. So she is understandable, if still completely abhorrent. Part 16: Self-Reliance II: Yeah... no surprises here, I thought that was exactly who George was going to pick, and I more or less thought that was how it would go down too. Not really too much to say here, but to wonder how this is going to shake out when we discuss what "really" happened. Part 17: Romantic Regrets:  Oookay, it looks like Jessie has some of the old family ruthlessness after all. I had wondered why it was Kyrie the game paired her with, but by the end of the episode... I wasn't wondering any more.And Jesus Christ, the Rudolph-Kyrie-Asumu affair gets worse and worse the more we hear about it, huh? If I'm reading this correctly, so Kyrie attempted to use her own pregnancy to get Asumu and Rudolph split up, and Asumu told her "So what" and to go blow? drat... it looks like the family is completely composed of ruthless, cruel, and/or broken people, and always have been, doesn't it?
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May 31, 2017 14:36
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Think these two images might be in reverse, doesn't seem to flow right in the order presented. But huh... OK. I've been thinking about what these murders mean and the relationship they hold to the murderers (and bear in mind that I speak of things in Magic Land, not the real things that they reflect on the real island which we don't know). George killed his mother becasuse she was an obstacle both real and developmentally to his relationship, no surprise there, and it is also fitting that his opponent was Eva Beatrice, since she has ever been portrayed as Eva's ambitions without her love. Fine; good matchup, thematically resonant. Another bit I thought was good was Kanon's matchup with Rosa, because of all the characters, he seems the most visibly and viscerally offended by Rosa's abuse of Maria (granted, nobody else is portrayed as liking it, but SOP for most family members seems to be to ignore it until it goes away, whereas Kanon has been the only one to say that it's awful and try to comfort Maria about it), again with the thematic resonance. You can even kind of see it with Jessica and Kyrie, in the theme of acting upon your desires versus letting them languish, but that's been the theme of all of the murders presented iin Twilight 1, and it doesn't really have much beyond that. Shannon, similarly, falls down there, as she had always been portrayed as being at least kind of sympathetic to Maria (I definitely suspect her to be the one dressing up as Beatrice to cheer her up/form Mariage Sorceriux[sic]), and she kills the girl quite viciously too... I guess there's something to be said for the "mercy" of freeing her from her unhealthy relationship with her mom, but still weird. And then we have Natsuhi and Chick Beatrice, but the only connection they have to each other would be if Beatrice was Cliff Baby (meaning, fitting it into the other theories, would be Kanon=Shannon=Beatrice=Cliff Baby... and I dunno, that works, but seems too pat). Or maybe I'm off base again, and this decision of these murders (which could have been made by Z&F/Battler/Toya, at this point) has nothing to do with the individuals involved, but the relationships they're in. Which include stalking a man for years in order to steal him from an ill woman, sitting on your hands waiting for your trifling man to stop cheating and come home, forcing your child down their life path without considering their feelings, and deluding yourself that your forced marriage to yes a nice husband but a whole bunch of other people you don't even like is actually a good thing... perhaps the idea is that these relationships are being ended because they are tainted, because they failed the love test, or whatever.
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Jun 7, 2017 17:09
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RedMagus posted:Is it just me, or is it getting real difficult to figure out what's "real", what's story, and what's meta? I'm not sure if it's writing issues or something that's suppose to be part of the entire tale, like Scheherazade weaving a story inside a story. It is not you. Late to the party there, but the obfuscation between all of these things does seem like a deliberate effort on the authors part: he wants to tell a story, which does contain a mystery, but he also wants to examine how a story is told. This is an interesting example of a form of storytelling, an emotional story, which I haven't really seen a lot outside of music videos and the odd video game- a story in which the core is not the plot or the themes or the study of a character or archetype, but an exploration of an emotional spectrum, the arc that a feeling takes as it transforms into another. In these kind of stories, instead of the plot moving the action forward through a setting influenced by the invoked mood of the piece, it's the emotions of the characters which determine where the plot goes, to the point of actually influencing the environment and setting they're in, instead of the other way around. Moulin Rouge! is an example of such a story, and the anime Revolutionary Girl Utena takes it to a great extreme, to the point that nearly everything that is seen physically is a metaphor for the inner lives of the characters and what they feel and want to do. Thus, on the question of what's "real" or not, the only thing I would not hesitate to call real are the emotions that the characters continually come back to and are influenced by: ambition, loss, regret for past mistakes, vindication of past suffering, revenge for slights real or imagined. I mean, when you get right down to it (and I know this is weird to say after all this), but it doesn't actually matter if Beatrice is "real" or not, is "a witch" or not- what matters is that it is her emotions- her pain, her longing, her betrayal, her unheard and unheeded rage- that are at the core of the story. The question has become not Who is Beatrice, but Why is Beatrice.
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Jun 8, 2017 16:36
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RedMagus posted:I'm kinda hoping one of these "pieces" decides they've had enough of this poo poo and stabs back. Mostly because having Erika attack Bern would be kinda cathartic. I dunno... it'd be cathartic, I guess, but from the faces tiistai pointed out versus everything else we've been told about Erika's character, she feels a little too... broken to do anything like that. Berne is her abuser, and it really does seem as if we've reached the event horizon in that abuser-abused relationship: in which the latter is so broken and desperate for any kind of recognition from the former that they don't even consider looking elsewhere for help. And that's still terrible to me, which means yes, this is a well written story; Erika might be awful, but nobody deserves that. But hey, it looks like Battler is the final victim (props to Qrr), but more interesting to me was how little fanfare there was in regards to the killing. No big monologue or scene, he's just dead, and that's in contrast to the other murders' flash and pomp, meaning... wghat? That it contains no lesson or message regarding love, or that the message is elsewhere, possibly already been said?
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Jun 9, 2017 16:46
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ZiegeDame posted:We got several earlier scenes of Unnamed Person(now Battler) trying to figure out how to set up a closed room while escaping. Looks like he settled on no escape, die in the room. *wrinkles nose* Are we... sure that Trapped Person is now-dead meat-Battler? Because the mundane Battler was walking around with the cousins while Trapped Person was busy being trapped and getting devoured by witches... the earliest Battler could have been killed was around 10 PM last night, after Erika vs. MARIA and the cousins retired to play cards around 10 PM. Heh, maybe Erika did it to show him up for talking back. ... Waaait a minute... Erika doesn't have detective authority this time, does she? Could she have killed Battler?
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Jun 9, 2017 17:22
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Battler, what the gently caress are you doing?
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Jun 12, 2017 16:08
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Good boy or not, you'd think he'd spent enough time amongst emotional manipulators to be at least a little critical of any sort of song and dance to earn a little bit of power. Your "lovely boy" just gave a self proclaimed intellectual rapist the means to gently caress him over yet again, because the Witches were a little mean... I hope he doesn't come to regret it.
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Jun 12, 2017 17:04
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xih5HyFOYg I'm not going to make a scene, because I have begun physical training again and that actually has done wonders for my anger management, and I don't want to give you lot the satisfaction, but... yeah, Battler is incompetent. You'd think, after all of this, that he would get tired of being dunked on by now, but EVIDENTLY NOT! Dlanor fans will be happy to know that she's shot up to be my favorite character as of this particular update, due to the nuanced way she too dunked on Battler while subtly implying "Christ, what assholes" about her current company with he body language and manner. Fortunately, we have the love twins and their kickass theme to calm me down in this update as well... but I am wondering what everyone's going to do: the twins have made it clear that a group needs to be eliminated, but seems to leave it up to the lovers to decide how that's going to work. They've already shot down drawing lots and a coin flip isn't going to cut it... so are they going to have a battle royale?
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Jun 13, 2017 14:09
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Yeah, that... that is a lot of red he's dropping there. However... the very end does make it seem like there is a plan Battler has, even if another cue was taken by what Erika said. (Then again, she was gloating and does get carried away when doing so). Man, this series does like it's letters from nowhere, doesn't it?
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Jun 14, 2017 14:35
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BurningStone posted:S=K looks in serious trouble to me, with red that they're in different rooms. And even if you dodge that, you need to explain why everybody thinks they can be in different rooms. I thought about this... but check again: the things confirmed in red are that Shannon is with the group in the adjacent room, and that everyone else is in the cousins' room. "Everyone else." He specifically does not list out the names in red, and is suspicious that Erika doesn't either... and that ambiguity not only eliminates the potential of Purupurupiko-Man, but preserves the ambiguity of S=K. So if that theory is true (and this isn't me saying that it is, although it would clear up some plot holes), then this is Battler covering his rear end without outwardly confirming it if Erika suspects, as you cannot say untrue things with the red-it's a fetter for Battler as much as for Erika.
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Jun 14, 2017 18:16
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ProfessorProf posted:
Presented without comment.
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Jun 16, 2017 16:32
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"However, because Battler was so overly gracious in giving out those retroactive seals, things went wrong."
"...Stupid Onii-chan."
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Yeah, hmm. If the room's retroactively sealed up (great job allowing that one, genius)... then yeah, he must have jumped out another window. Other than that, this-idonotlikepeas posted:It's still not that hard to get him out with a variation on that, though. He'd just have to change places with someone outside - since I suspect that the story is going to want to keep the other two rooms sealed, it would be likely to be one of the people that appeared to be dead before. That person can put the chain back on and hide somewhere in the room without creating a contradiction while Battler strolls off somewhere else. (And since Erika isn't the detective, they can potentially keep hiding in different places in the room without getting caught by her.) -would seem to be the most parsimonious answer. Erika sealed up the rooms with all the known survivors, other than Battler's murder room, and as she hasn't examined the corpses, yeah, they all might still be alive, and anyone (though probably not maria, as she's too little) could have potentially let Battler out while Erika had Fun Times In The Bathroom.
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Jun 18, 2017 21:25
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...  ... Jesus, loving poo poo, and other such utterances. I knew this would get bad, but I didn't know how bad... or how drat quick. I don't even want to say "I told you so" anymore, I'm too loving horrified on Battler's behalf here. How does Erika get even more loathsome the more time we spend with her? How does Berne become even more monstrous and sick? And how the loving gently caress is Lambda the most sympathetic person in this scene, after the things she did in the first game, and after the things she enabled in Higurashi? God, when she asked if she was actually out of her torment and wasn't just dreaming this conversation, I felt cold in the room... what on earth happened to her? And what is Beatrice going to do now? Hope is all very well and good, but if all of the victims are actually dead (gently caress you Erika), and the remaining people are sealed up... how is that going to happen?
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Jun 19, 2017 14:22
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oath2order posted:Actually, buddy, let me ask you a question. Discounting arguments about her complicity in higurashi (cause its arguable how canon we should take it, and she doesnt appear to know or care about the details regardless.) what...exactly has lambda done? Be specific. Well... ...huh. Keeping Berne in Beatrice's game like peas pointed out is not admittedly very nice, but beyond that... she has been something of an impartial actor, hasn't she? Her very first appearance, she gave some advice to Battler too, which she's... well, done a lot, actually, whenever she's been in the story. Yes, she's been a bit mean about it at times, but the only times that she's been actively hostile have been when she was strongarming Beatrice and crushing Ange's hope for getting her brother back in her timeline. But was she actually establishing anything, in that scene, or was she just establishing the truth of the time paradox? In fact... now that I think on it, has Lambdadelta ever straight up lied about anything? Berne, in one way or another, lies all the time, but a lot of LD's nastier moments come when she's obliterating a previous lie, or establishing facts- she "corrected" Ange's misconception of what would happen if Battler left the island, and her annoyance at Beatrice's screwing around...could actually be taken a couple of ways, couldn't it? It's never really defined what she means by Beatrice's pussyfooting, the fact that she can "beat" Berne... so is she mad because she keeps failing to crush battler... or mad that Beato won't admit that crushing Battler isn't what she wants? that Beato wavers in her "certainty?" So maybe, unpleasant as she is, she really is the best person to be impartial. Maybe I really did sell the Shortcackle... short.
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Jun 19, 2017 17:52
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You know... Kanon was never mentioned in red to be in his room... vv Uh huh, Uh huh, I like the cut of your jib! The only problem is the timing, though; could Shannon have slipped out of the room before it was sealed? resurgam40 fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 15:43
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ProfessorProf posted:
(Left the tune in, 'cause it's bangin'.) Oh my GOOOOODDD  He's all but underlining it now, circling it until the pen rips the paper: Shannon and Kanon are one person-the one who fell off the cliff 19 year ago- and neither can live while the other survives! And this duel not only determines which love shall be pursued, but determines which one will save Battler in the room- and I'll bet you anything you like that the one to do it will be Kanon, because his name is not in red as the occupant of that adjacent room! All the other people were accounted for, or else would have no impetus to help Battler here- I am incompetent and you all know that, but Heavens to Betsy, I don't see any other way this plays out. Shannon is Kannon is Beatrice... Beatrice is Sayo Yoshiya. 
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Jun 21, 2017 14:57
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"...I have no objections."
"Me neither. I'm glad. This means we can finally-"
"...That is our Father's sin, isn't it..."
"...We will finally leave our cage... and fly off to our separate worlds."
"I should have had this duel with you... long ago."
"October 5th, 1986. The fated day."
"Oh, that might happen too. In fact, that's not so unlikely at all."
"To me, you are-"
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BurningStone posted:This episode sure seems to push S=K, and my trust in the author just took a huge drop. This is starting to feel like Lost, where the authors threw out mystery after mystery, until the audience realized they didn't have any coherent way of wrapping things up. Because S=K makes a lot of what we've seen nonsense. Here, from the red archive, is the red from Ep 3's first twilight murders (the chain of six locked rooms): Is this such an enormous stretch, though? Because there is a way that one body can register as two corpses, the way the game presents, without supernatural shenanigans. Recall the order that the corpses were found- Shannon found first and Kanon found last- and no guards were left in the room, so the party of discoverers moved as one, and none of them being designated detectives, all of them had to depend on Nanjo's word that the corpses were corpses. Thus a potential plan to perform these murders mundanely emerges: after Shannon is discovered with her key and the party leaves the room, Shannon gets up and leaves the mnansion while everyone else farts around with the Mansion doors, changes into Kanon and picks up the chapel key (or had it all along), books it to the chapel, locks that door and plays dead. Voila: "two" people dead, with one live body.
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Jun 21, 2017 17:20
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What? What truth? I wonder if it's what I think it is... I'd like to concentrate more, but I'm too busy bangin' my head to that first new tune to concentrate  Berne and Erika might be awful fuckers, but I suppose they have pretty good taste in party music.It's really hard to get a handle on the character of Dlanor and where she's coming from (and not because she suddenly has glasses in this scene, what? I'd say they were for reading, but she isn't reading anything...) Is she bound to serve Erika by rules, or does she want to? Sealing up the windows to the rooms... gotta admit that's where my thoughts were going too, and yeah, that did seem a little bet too easy to be allowed... but tell me: when were the rooms sealed, exactly, because the "retroactive" thing is kinda loving with me a bit... was it directly after Erika left, or before she did and her leaving just doesn't count? Could someone have slipped out either immediately before, or at the same time that she did?
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Jun 22, 2017 15:02
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POOL IS CLOSED posted:
He's not borrowing. The whole idea of the perversion of marriage to symbolize dominance instead of love, the forcing of the trap ring on, the idea of already being in hell... You are all correct: R07 was not misusing the term. Erika is a rapist. Here's where I would put my string of s again, but that somehow seems insufficient to the (I'm sure very intentional) sickness and horror of this moment. Does anyone have the slowly growing to post, to better reflect these feelings?
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Jun 23, 2017 15:49
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Tired Moritz posted:who the hell is looking at that and thinking "wow I bet they wanted to titillate the audience" Exactly. And yes, I do watch anime, and have played the odd VN where sex happens, and I think I know when I'm supposed to find something titillating or humorous- there are very clear signs that they put up to indicate when something is supposed to be enjoyable, an none of those signs are present here. I mean, I've scene the "sweaty, flushed" look that EagerSleeper is lacking about, for example, and a bit of blush and a few sweatdrops does not it make. Maybe it's just me missing social cues again, but is anyone really finding this as anything other than something disgusting and horrible?
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Jun 23, 2017 17:29
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ZiegeDame posted:Battler, when asked what kind of girl he like, immediately responds with "my cousin." This family, my god. Ignoring that...A Beatrice representing her love for Battler? How many drat Beatrices are there now? Is this why Chick-Beatrice was created on the original game board, so that she could play the game of torturing Battler without being tormented by her "love" for him? Seems we have more compartmentalization, but it didn't quite work in that case; her feelings still came through to me. You don't get that mad, feel that betrayed, over somebody unless the feeling was strong. But now that it's done... like we thought, the one room containing everyone else is the kicker to the mystery, because now, his death in the Duel of Love means that Kanon is "out of the room"
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Jun 24, 2017 17:01
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SHE'S BAAAAACK!!
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Jun 25, 2017 13:07
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Kanon... Have I said that the soundtrack is shocking good for this episode? Because it is shocking good, this track, and the thing is, soundtrack as a whole hasn't really dipped below "pretty great" ever; I mean, I've played some VNs and generally speaking they all generally have one or two bangers or pieces that fit the theme well, but this soundtrack got hit after hit after hit... I don't suppose it's available anywhere commercially? I am very hype.
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Jun 26, 2017 14:36
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ProfessorProf posted:
Well, I'll be. It seems even horrible rapists can learn and grow from experience and admit their mistakes... god bless us, everyone. (Preferably with more bangin' tunes; Liberated Liberater is quite good, even though its name hurts my English sensibilities.) I wonder if she really does have a handle on things though, because getting bogged down in where Kanon is hiding is kinda missing the point... as well as the oh-so-clever way Beato snookered her with the red text that she failed to notice.
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Jun 27, 2017 14:28
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"..."
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ProfessorProf posted:
Love you too, R07  But yeah, if it may be taken as red that there are 16 people on the island, not including Erika, then there's only one solution that works: Kanon walked into the closet... and Shannon walked out.
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Jun 28, 2017 14:12
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"...Heh, heheh, that's a nasty trick... You sure something like this counts...? With a trick like this one, those humans will start complaining again about how this isn't mystery..."
"No, it's a splendid trick! People without love cannot see that...! Battler-san... Battler-san... waaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh...!!!"
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| # ¿ May 15, 2024 16:47 |
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And the Golden Land arrives, and up they all come. As a witch doubter, I will commit the small heresy of admitting that it is a bit cathartic to see everyone alive and happy, even if it does feel a bit too... simple? It's not that it's too saccharine, as the darkness of the stories before hand (and even concurrently, in the case of EP3) provide a nice bitterness to prevent the endings from being too sweet, but... the family all seems too flat, like... like echoes of their previous selves, rather than the complicated people we came to know on the island. Thios means something, but... I'm still not sure what, yet, or what it means for the narrative as a whole (could be really good, or really bad, depending...)ProfessorProf posted:
Dawww, Ange As somebody who takes stories way too seriously myself, I think you might be my... OK, maybe not my favorite character, especially in how deliciously complicated Beatrice is turning out to be, but probably my most liked one.And on that note,  It is a stereotype of mine that I cannot trust people above a certain tax bracket, and I keep waiting for somebody to arrive to show me what a filthy stereotype that is, but I haven't me that person yet and believe I never shall. So the big CEO of Eva's company is a corrupt fucker who would throw a teenager to the wolves because she doesn't want to operate by the rules and put her fortune where it belongs (i.e. with him)- shocker. And apparently, Amakusa is meant to do the deed... but will he? I suppose that depends on whether or not he's the same sort of character I remember from Higurashi, but this exchange:ProfessorProf posted:
... gives me hope that he might change his mind later, or save her life in spite of himself. By the rules of fiction, it could go either way, really.
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Jun 29, 2017 16:07
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"No. You really are a good reader, and a good thinker. We have created these tales and been thrown out into the world in search of a person like you."
"...If we do get caught, then that's the measure of my luck. If we don't, then Rokkenjima is waiting for me. Let's leave it all to luck."
"...Luck, is it?"
"When you can't decide what to do, or when it doesn't matter either way, it's not so bad to entrust your fate to a coin toss."
"Heheh. Then I'll leave it to luck too. I'm no stranger to that sort of thing myself."