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Just so you guys are aware, the delivery of that line is sort of lost in the direct transcription. She says it more like, "I talked to Yasu... ...Shannon... And Kumasawa about it" than as one unbroken phrase.
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Jul 31, 2017 17:06
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ZiegeDame posted:^^^ But how many "to"s are there? I am absolutely terrible at transcribing spoken Japanese, but that doesn't seem to be how they phrase it. It's like, "Chigau yo! Watashi Yasu ne! ...Shannon ne... Kumasawa-san (toka ne musoda shtanou?)!" I dunno how the last part should be transcribed, but if you're more fluent, maybe you can figure it out?
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Jul 31, 2017 17:23
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Hello! I'm a witch but have been avoiding posting in the thread, since I'm terrible at avoiding making silly comments or suggesting/leading people too much, but now that we're at the conclusion to the majority of the mystery aspect of the story, and have discussed this aspect of it extensively already, I might as well throw my hat in.ZiegeDame posted:I'm also trying to think of fall-related injuries that would lead to this, and I can only come to the conclusion Nanjo did some incredibly unethical and unnecessary surgery. (I'm thinking about a semi-famous story involving a botched circumcision and a grossly unethical psychiatrist, but names are escaping me.) You're thinking of the case of David Reimer, who lost their genitalia in a circumcision gone awry after birth. At the time - which, incidentally, extends to the period when Umineko takes place - the medical community considered gender identity to be something basically fluid until maturity, and so they were raised as a girl for much of their early life. They eventually transitioned back to male in their teens, but committed suicide in 2004. This event itself arose out of the precedent set in regards to the treatment of intersex children in the post-war period, when it became considered appropriate to operate on ambiguous genitalia to the end of normalizing it as resembling one sex or another, in spite of that often ending in serious dysfunction. It's only a practice coming to an end in the western world in the past few years. I think it's an important subject to think about when considering Umineko as a text. Maybe even more so than trans issues, though the two are obviously linked to a fair degree. ZiegeDame posted:It's a big leap from being infertile to being incapable of love, but then I suppose it's possible Yasu internalized a lot of toxic bullshit from basically every mother in this family. Without saying too much, I think when Yasu says she's incapable of love, she means it very literally. As a story, Umineko is pretty good at disguising what it is, fundamentally, about, until you go back knowing what you're looking for. All over the text, (though especially in episode 2,) there are tons of scenes that concern something completely different than you think on the first read. Like other people have said, it's worth a second go yourself, but to give another example beyond the one Raelle's: There's the scene where Kanon is killed, and how it's described when he draws his "sword". This is the one in question, and I'll let you draw your own conclusions. This issue can get a bit muddy, but I think it's important to realize that Yasu probably did have issues that extended beyond her identity and self-image, and it's quite possible that having a fully "conventional" relationship was something that would've always been off the table for her, even if things had turned out okay. In tandem with that, I'd also like to double back a bit and say that, though I think it's a valid reading, I disagree with prof's understanding of the term "furniture". I think the proper definition, which can be applied pretty much anywhere in the text that it's used, would be "someone/something unable to enter into a physical relationship". An imaginary friend can never be touched or truly connected with - a point that was labored pretty strongly in episode 4 - and as for the other instances... The only (human) characters that ever use the term in reference to themselves are Yasu and Genji. For someone in Yasu's shoes, who has lived a life defined by isolation, and who has a frame of reference rooted more in her interactions with her fictional universe and characters than with human beings, I think it's understandable why she might use language like that, rather than speaking more literally concerning herself. And I think in the latter's case, if you think about his actions throughout the story and the context he's in, you can get an impression of why he might regard himself in that way, as well. Though in both instances, it's obviously intended to be a reflection of their feelings, rather than a completely objective truth. PoorWeather fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Sep 20, 2017 |
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Sep 20, 2017 07:30
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PetraCore posted:Yeah one of the things I am pretty sure that Yasu is not aware of is that it is possible to get treatments and surgeries she herself consents to and decides how far they apply in order to treat sex dysphoria, and that while it is more difficult for the average person to access these treatments a wealthy-as-hell eccentric has the ability to get the highest standard of care. For the record, surgery in this respect is a lot more limited than people generally figure. Sexual assignment/reassignment procedures rely on the fact that male and female tissues in that area are basically homologous; So long as they function, it's possible to shift a lot of them from being one thing to another, or to the extremes from somewhere in between, and have them work mostly well. But on the other hand, it's a very different business to produce something functional, or even aesthetically normal, when there's little natural tissue left at all. Like, you might as well try to rebuild an amputated hand from scratch. I hope I'm not coming across as lecturing in saying this - It's just very common to see people in the Umineko fandom saying, "if only she'd been aware she could have surgery!" when it's... Not really that simple, I guess. ZiegeDame posted:You wanna get into a debate about nature vs. nurture or just trust trans people when we say we were born this way? I'd sort of agree that Yasu has a set "hard" sexual and gender identity across both timelines, but I think it's also important to remember that people make choices of what parts of themselves to express, or define themselves by, based on the circumstances they live through. When talking about Umineko, but also in general, I think it's good to respect those choices, even if - personally - it might seem like they were the wrong ones. For instance, if you think about it, the fact that Yasu gets a lot of joy out of being "Beatrice", an identity that was originally their grandmothers and was foisted on their mother in a horrible way, and that they absorbed and internalized as a result of the hosed up context in which they grew up, is pretty messed up and probably responsible for some of their misery in trying to contextualize their own identity. It's important to acknowledge that. But all the same, that doesn't mean you can say that it wasn't a part of who they were, or that it was unambiguously awful. PoorWeather fucked around with this message at 13:06 on Sep 21, 2017 |
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Sep 21, 2017 07:35
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Thanks Prof. It was a ton of fun. This probably doesn't really need to be said, but everyone who has been following the thread can now/should join us in the witchchat discord! Oh, and there's one last TIP that someone will probably post in here in the next few days that Ryukishi wrote after the end of the story, so keep your eyes peeled for that I guess. It doesn't add anything more to the story, but there's some catharsis. PoorWeather fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Nov 29, 2017 |
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Nov 29, 2017 15:08
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Rune Full Moon posted:I'm aware this is a stupid question, but can someone please explain to me what happened in this ending? I've always been confused by it ever since the original release, and then I got more confused with the manga's version since it included Battler among the people that... Battler... reunited with in the Golden Land. Which makes slightly more sense to me since some level of Battler died with Beatrice at the bottom of the sea, but then it makes more sense for Battler to be reuniting with them now, except Battler's been dead this whole time, and my head hurts. By seeing Rokkenjima and Bearice's portrait one last time, Tohya was able to let go of the part of himself that was still Battler, who (probably metaphorically, if you're some kinda no-magic dweeb) passed on with the rest of his family, including Ange's former self that she let go of at the end of her narrative, and the part of him that died with Yasu at the bottom of the ocean.
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Nov 29, 2017 18:48
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The 29th of November is the day that Yasu discovered the gold and "Beatrice" was born. Her real birthday is probably the same as Shannon's, which is the 25th of May.
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Nov 30, 2017 05:06
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A couple bits of post-release material worth talking about here, if anyone's interested. Answer to the Golden Witch A month or two after the release of Episode 8, KEIYA, a prominent member of the Japanese When They Cry community, released a summary and and speculation guidebook for Umineko Chiru named Answer to the Golden Witch. Though most of it isn't translated - there's not much new information anyway - it included a very comprehensive interview with Ryukishi07, where he discusses the text and his intentions in writing it, alongside where he felt he fumbled a bit, in a very rare and frank manner. There's special attention paid to his decision to keep the catbox of Rokkenjima closed, as is the focus of a lot of Episode 8. The original translation can be found on this wordpress blog here. If you enjoyed the story, it's definitely insightful and worth a read. Our Confession First, a little background. The reception - at least among the Japanese fandom - to Episodes 6, 7 and 8, as well as the solution to Umineko in general, was not very positive. Aside from what could be charitably described as a lack of general understanding and considerable negativity towards the gender and sexual themes in Yasu's narrative, people complained that the solution was too vague and difficult to understand, the motive lackluster, and the story too pleased with itself and hostile towards the fandom for these sentiments. In response, Ryukishi released Our Confession, intended as a final, more explicit hint on the solution, as well as a bookend to Umineko as a whole. It was released as a sort of novella in booklet form, only including a few illustrations. Framed as a sort of unreleased episode transcribed by Dlanor some time after the events of the story, it essentially describes the creation of a gameboard from the perspective of Beatrice/Yasu. Though it keeps the spirit of the rest of the text and is veiled in magical language, it explains how many of the tricks - especially those that involve the fact that Shannon and Kanon are, well, the same person - are conducted, as well as other details like how accomplices were recruited that can fill in a lot of blanks from the other episodes. Sadly, the only translation done of it that I know of (conducted by AnimeSuki user Wanderer) was based off scans that were missing a few pages, and is so incomplete. Despite this, I think it remains coherent, as well as very cathartic and charming. It shows a lot of Yasu's real character, behind her personas, in a way that is not framed exclusively by her ultimate tragedy in the manner of Episode 7. For instance: Yasu posted:Which new demon shall I call? The complete and properly formatted version can be found here, at the Umineko wiki. Or here's a simple text dump, if you can prefer. Ultimately, in spite of the release, the original Japanese fandom continued to hold a relatively poor perception of Umineko's ending that largely persists to this day. Years later, the manga version of Episode 8 released, containing the kinda confusingly-named chapter Confession of the Golden Witch, which shows Yasu's story and the methods behind the murders in an even more explicit fashion, with no magic present. If you've already taken a look at that, you probably won't get much more new information from Our Confession. But I'd recommend it anyway. It's lengthy and a more than a bit clunky, though, so if you decide against it, then at the very least you should read the epilogue, which is, as far as I know, the final piece of Umineko content written directly by Ryukishi until years after the fact. In my opinion, it's a great closing to the story. I'll include it here. Dlanor posted:As a result of Lady Beatrice's death, I am releasing this incomplete tale in accordance with her will. PoorWeather fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Nov 30, 2017 |
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Nov 30, 2017 15:38
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tiistai posted:Rather than missing scans, I'm pretty sure it's because the Japanese transcriptions at umineco.info intentionally omit some parts from TIPS that are available only commercially. Oh, that makes sense. I'll be honest, my understanding of this stuff is mostly based off forum posts I found. It actually ended up being super hard to find concrete information on it from the time.
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Nov 30, 2017 16:33
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