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Hahahahaha. That's a great start. Good call on Human Bern. Is Bern basically going to be Poirot, and we jumped in right at the parlour scene?
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Mar 17, 2017 18:51
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Dr Pepper posted:Ya'll ready to accept it''s all witches yet? Actually, after the  that was Tiny Bombs at the end of the last thread, we should really be asking you whether you're willing to accept that you're all deluding yourselves, and witches aren't needed to explain ridiculous murders.
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Mar 17, 2017 19:08
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If we are assuming the killer is the same in each board, Natsuhi doesn't make sense if she's working alone. Given that we know something or someone killed her at the end of the first game by homicide. That only makes sense if there are co-conspirators or she's not the killer. She has a kind of motive, given that she's stupidly devoted to Kinzo by the look of it, but if it were revenge for Kinzo's death, that doesn't explain murdering everyone, or Beatrice's obvious connection with Battler.
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Mar 18, 2017 12:04
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Yeah, I'm guessing with loli-Poirot in the mix we're back up to 18. Unless Krauss isn't in the parlour or among the dead because he's not on the island on this board, and LP has replaced him.
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Mar 18, 2017 22:25
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E: Actually, I won't spoil Citizen Kane for the few people who haven't already seen it. It's a good film!
CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Mar 20, 2017 |
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Mar 20, 2017 00:13
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No, you see, those men were providing sound business opportunities.
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Mar 20, 2017 15:01
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No-one can mistake Kinzo, but we have no proof that anyone ever saw him either. Right after that it all gets magic weird. It's more parsimonious to just say that scene never happened at all. No-one mistook Kinzo because no-one saw Kinzo in the first place.
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Mar 21, 2017 20:08
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Oh, I forgot that. Curses.
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Mar 21, 2017 20:19
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I thought Kinzo liking those nuts might be a clue as to where he grew up, but they're eaten all across SE Asia according Wikipedia.tiistai posted:How are they secret passages if you know about them All passages are secret until they aren't. I think they count! Or does a secret passage require a conspiracy of silence?
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Mar 22, 2017 23:22
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ProfessorProf posted:While we're sharing mystery novel recs, one of my favorites is Sarah Caudwell's Thus Was Adonis Murdered. Very funny, technically sound, fully solvable, and with an interesting detective. Prof, get well soon, and absolutely take a break if you need one. Don't wear yourself out on our account! But yeah, just got back from holiday and insane work week, and I missed some stuff. I feel incompetent, but I still can't reach the solution for the epitaph. TCL's QUADRILLION solution is pretty great. That said, I just don't see how it leads us to Kyoto (if indeed that is where we're going) but it feels like it fits too well not to be right in some capacity. Anyway, it's time for some parentage theories, as this is clearly the parentage episode. Some of it is just stating things we've discussed before in blue, but I think the first bit's new. As multiple people have pointed out Beatrice died 19 years ago, I think that's too strong a connection to be a coincidence, so here goes: Beatrice 1 died 19 years ago. At the time of her death she was pregnant by Kinzo. Somehow Natsuhi found the body. The baby survived. Natsuhi is therefore "Mother". The child was given to Fukuein (sp?) House to be raised in the orphanage. Though resurgam40's theory about her attempting to drown the baby could work here too. Either Kanon or Shannon is actually 19, and Beatrice 1's child, and therefore is an Ushiromiya. Whichever of these two is Beatrice 1's child is the current Beatrice. Battler's parentage is a misdirection. The murders have nothing to do with Battler's parentage. He is Rudolf's child by Kyrie. Asamu miscarried and Kyrie didn't and for some reason Battler was played off as Asamu's child and raised as such. The big flaw in this theory is, of course, why wouldn't she tell anyone? I have no real answer to that. In this theory she didn't really do anything wrong. The only other theory that potentially comes to me is, and that other people have hinted at, is this: The "child" is Ushiromiya Natsuhi's child by Ushiromiya Kinzo. This explains Natsuhi's obsession with Kinzo, either they were lovers, or something more messed up (not that having sex with your son's wife isn't already appropriately messed up). The rest of the theory would proceed as above. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 09:43 on Apr 1, 2017 |
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Apr 1, 2017 09:37
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Well, that theory lasted all of two posts. So, "a baby" from Fukuin House which died in a fall with a servant. In suspiciously similar circumstances to which the Beatrice which Rosa met died. Natsuhi, also, appears to have had no direct role in the death. Wishing isn't killing. I'm still on board with the baby being Kinzo's child in some regard, a random baby unrelated to everyone else seems like a weird thing to bring in, but I guess it has to be more roundabout at this point. I guess it's not impossible that just before escaping, Beatrice gave birth to a child fathered by Kinzo. The baby survived. Natsuhi is unable to concieve* and therefore is given this child to raise, believing it to be an orphan. The child is given to a servant, who dies, but the baby itself survives and actually goes to Fukuin House, is raised up and eventually becomes Kanon/Shannon. *I think it's seriously worth considering whether it's actually Krauss who's infertile rather than Natsuhi. If that's the case, it raises a massive question over who is Jessica's father.
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Apr 1, 2017 14:47
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BurningStone posted:^^^ What he said. If the baby didn't die, and ended up a servant instead of heir, that's plenty of motivation. I'd bet on it being Kanon, since he's male, to match the voice and Kinzo's presumed preferred heir. He's also got a clear streak of bitterness running through him. I'm not sure that fits with what we know about Beatrice's motivation. If it's about being denied their place in the family or the headship, that doesn't seem to gel with explicitly being about making Battler see something. This has to be to do with something that happened the last time Battler was at the family conference, and I can't see how that relates.
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Apr 1, 2017 17:57
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idonotlikepeas posted:Hmm. This makes it seems like the Beatrice's Kid theory has some legs. The description of the child as an "empty cage" particularly; he can't catch Beatrice's spirit in a dead child. I thought that with that line, but I don't understand Kinzo's reaction at all. You could brush it away with "he's insane", but within presumably a couple of months, he's lost young Beatrice and her child, and he seems completely chill about it. I'm very much in favour of that theory, and I think that it's a really odd response if it's right.
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Apr 1, 2017 18:31
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That feels like cheating... But yeah, I guess that means we can be pretty sure Natsuhi isn't the killer. And that Bern's somewhat less of the great detective she sells herself as.
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Apr 2, 2017 15:34
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I failed to read the upper part too, so that makes two of us.
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Apr 3, 2017 10:27
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idonotlikepeas posted:Not all of the victims had to have faked their deaths; even one would be enough to clean up the others. Battler didn't examine all of them, so that's okay. Although I guess Erika didn't really examine ANY of them, which is more relevant right now since she's the detective. (She specifically said she wasn't going to look through slits in anyone's neck.) So anyone or everyone could still be alive. I guess a better question would be WHY they would do this. Maybe it's a scheme to reveal Kinzo? Krauss could have been genuinely kidnapped by someone, while everyone else pretended to be dead to freak Natsuhi out and get her to admit that Kinzo's still alive. Well, considering that the only other time the epitaph was solved, the murders continued, presumably the reasoning is the same as then. I've been working on the logic that "Beatrice" has the same motivation across the game boards, even if I don't know what it is yet. But it really seems like the whole solve the epitaph to stop the killing thing is a red herring. Unless there really were two killers in episode three, and the motivation switched from whatever "Beatrice's" goals are to greed and the second killer was killing for the gold. I mean, it's possible that Beatrice's goal in every game has been to reveal that Kinzo was dead, but why? This being about inheritance seems a bit prosaic, when we know that she doesn't care about the gold at all. The defiling of his memory? But that doesn't really jive with trying to show Battler something. We know the murders are unimportant to her, which means they must serve an illustrative purpose. And we know they they're not there to illustrate fear. I'm guess they're meant to be a motive force to drive Battler into a position where he can remember whatever the hell it is that he can't remember, but I still have no real ideas as to what that might be, or why it would require killing (and/or solving the epitaph) to achieve.
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Apr 4, 2017 00:31
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If Battler's incompetent and even he can show up Bern, that doesn't say much for the quality of our heroine. Also, if anyone hasn't read it, And Then There Were None is possibly my favourite Christie.
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Apr 4, 2017 17:12
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RedMagus posted:The original name of that one was "Ten Little Indians" which changed due to the negative racial connotations, though I forget if the poem was changed as well. I know Suchet did the Poirot film versions, but is there a good film adaptation of it? I don't know about film, but BBC One did a good TV adaptation of it the Christmas before last. E: Here's the trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyPeQM4OgyU Dr Pepper posted:Uh nope, it was originaly "Ten little N***" and even the island was "N*** Island" Yeah, the original cover is uncomfortable, to say the least. It's still a fantastic mystery though. I think the only other of Christie's books I like as much is Five Little Pigs. If there was ever an adaptation of that one, I don't know about it though. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Apr 4, 2017 |
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Apr 4, 2017 17:35
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Oh! I thought she was literally a self-insert. Rodyle posted:I think my favorite mystery is still Orient Express. I appreciate the craft in that one. I'm just not keen on how... broad the solution is. If the answer to Umineko is functionally the same as the Orient Express, that's basically the only outcome I'd find disappointing. At least the red text has at least ruled out the most extreme Orient Express-eqsue answers.
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Apr 4, 2017 18:24
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While we're talking murder mysteries, has anyone here read The Tokyo Zodiac Murders, the other book Erika namechecks? Apparently it has an English translation. If it's any good, I might give it a go.idonotlikepeas posted:Speaking of which... Battler being an obvious mystery fan just reinforces my idea that this mystery is being staged for him. It's not just a puzzle for him to solve, it's a puzzle for him to solve using conventions he is familiar with and even enjoys. Is this an interest he shared with someone else on the island? That is a very good question. I don't think know enough about pre-Rokkenjima Battler to know who he'd have brought it up with. Plus would he even have been into that stuff 6 years ago? E: It would also tie into the meta-world really well. The metagame is the literal embodiment of the intentions of the murderer. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Apr 4, 2017 |
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Apr 4, 2017 19:37
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Cyouni posted:The last one seems very interesting to me in that it contradicts the third game, episode 3. Eva makes it out. A lot of our theories thus far have relied on mental death. I'm not sure if that's a valid concept that it is contradictory.
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Apr 5, 2017 09:13
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Lardon works, so I hypothesise that Dlanor is a pig.Cyouni posted:Six years ago, no person called BEATRICE existed for me. Could we have it wrong? What if Battler's sin doesn't cause the 1986 Rokkenjima incident, but instead the the killings of the future world. I have literally no idea how that would work, but given that it seems like there are no survivors from Ange's trip, it means the "No one escapes, all die." red better. Otherwise, Cyouni's right, the Eva problem rears its ugly head. E: Though they're not "...of this island...", I guess. So that doesn't really work either. Perhaps there's another killing incident we don't know about yet? E2: Also, there's weird wording in that last line. Due to your sin, a great many humans of this island die. No one escapes, all die. Firstly, a great many humans die. Then, all die. What if this is obfuscation? Maybe the two sentences are both true, but disconnected. The first is the relevant part. The second is a trivially true statement about mortality. There's nothing in the red text requires connections between statements. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Apr 5, 2017 |
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Apr 5, 2017 18:11
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Hah. You beat me to my edit!
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Apr 5, 2017 18:23
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I read it as DL, just because sticking a capital i in there would be weird.
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Apr 5, 2017 21:37
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Oh, gently caress. I really hope so. That would be precisely the right kind of mental.
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Apr 5, 2017 21:56
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idonotlikepeas posted:Holy poo poo it actually was. WHAT IS SHE WEARING. HOW DO THE OUTFITS GET MORE INSANE. Her shoulder's a rook. I think it's quite clever. EagerSleeper posted:As for Battler-claiming-to-be-Kinzo escaping the room, it seems that taking the door is out of the question unless Battler notices the paper trick and puts it back in place after leaving. The only way I can think of is taking the window out, unless.... Battler takes an unorthodox way of escape by hiding underneath Natsuhi's dress as she walks out. Battler's pervertedness finally comes into play for once. This works. I don't think Kinzo could fit, but practicalities aren't the point, are they? The window could have an autolock. That feels cheap though. I don't know how seasonal time changes work in Japan, so The clocks could have changed one hour backwards (the British summer time change equivalent), so that at 11:00, it became 10:00, at which point Kinzo exits the study and reseals the door with Eva's note. The door does not open after the new 11:00. Perhaps Kinzo left first, then Natsuhi followed him out some time later. Eva seals the door when Natsuhi leaves, after Kinzo has already left. resurgam40 posted:HOW IS THIS poo poo ALLOWED?!?!? I mean, yes, we are obviously still drawing a line between reality and whatever weird wonderland poo poo is going on here*, but we do still have a battle between fantasy and mystery, and since when have the rules dictated that the Mystery side can call on the bunny ladies and the Anime Inquisition when battler could not, because that poo poo is silly? Pretty sure mystery doesn't get to call down magic or supernatural abilities- which is one of KNOX'S OWN RULES, haha- or did I miss the part in Hercule Poirot when he loving Kamehameha'd the bad guy instead of setting up a parlor room? Knox's rules are the magic of the mystery genre. They're the anti-magic that allows a mystery to be solved. Hercule's Kamehameha is implicit. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Apr 6, 2017 |
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Apr 6, 2017 18:10
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The horribly butchered English Dlanor throws out at the end was the perfect capstone to that scene.
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Apr 6, 2017 18:24
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Does it use the same voice sample when she pulls it off? That would be a missed opportunity if not. E: Also, 10/10 for putting spinning head Kasumi in the LP archive. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 09:32 on Apr 7, 2017 |
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Apr 7, 2017 08:26
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AfroSquirrel posted:So, what do you think everyone? BeatoXBato OTP? That's my main take-away.
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Apr 7, 2017 14:18
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To add to this, I mean, it's not a convincing theory. "He jumped out the window, Natsuhi didn't notice, then closed it" is hardly believable, but it's possible and there's nothing that be used to argue against it. And that seems to be how magic works in Umineko. It's not real, but you can argue it in the gaps as a defence. Magic has almost been reduced to linguistic ambiguity at this point. Especially, as we know in red that Kinzo's already dead. It's just playing with English (Japanese) language. I mean, I enjoy that. Finding bizarre solutions that dodge every bit of red text has been half the fun of these threads, but having had magic reduced to where it is now, "mystery" has basically already won. Raising Knox's decalogue to the level of red text is almost the same as saying in red that the murders were not done by magic.
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Apr 7, 2017 14:43
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RedMagus posted:Also they make a cute couple The scene with Battler catching her and the roses fluttering around could have been a still from a shoujo anime.
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Apr 7, 2017 14:56
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resurgam40 posted:
Yeah. This can't last. At some point presumably the game has to remember that Beato's very probably a member of Battler's family, and at the very least has performed/orchestrated the deaths of his relatives multiple times. They can't North Wind and the Sun us twice.
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Apr 7, 2017 18:01
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Artificer posted:Death to witches!! Hey now, let's not say anything we can't take back. MARIA's alright, and ANGE didn't do anything too egregious. It's just Bern, Lambda and Beatrice who are monsters. E: Maybe monster's a bit strong. But at the very least, highly dickish. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Apr 7, 2017 |
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Apr 7, 2017 18:12
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You know, I think Dlanor might be pretty GREAT.
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Apr 9, 2017 14:35
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resurgam40 posted:So to make this official, repetition requested: The letter and the knock announcing it are things that really happened. And in their absence, I submit the blue: The letter and knock were fakes concocted by a person or group of persons in the conference room at midnight, possibly to provide an alibi for Natsuhi's call. Tender Child Loins posted:I agree with resurgam. None of that poo poo even happened: note that Lambda weasels around stating the fact of the knock itself in red. Yeah, this seems the most parsimonious dodge here. If something is rendered impossible, it probably doesn't exist. Though I'm not sure that we can count anything that Erika sees as trustworthy if we're trying to deny the involvement of witches. It would be like saying that Ronove is the detective, and we can only trust what he sees, while he's communing with literal witches and punching people to death with his magic hands. Erika is either insane or just talked with Bern though the medium of lightning. She's also used red text on the board. She's an avatar of magic outside of the meta-game. If Erika's in a scene talking to Bern, and everyone else can see her talking to someone not there, I'm not sure how we're meant to interpret that, if Erika's viewpoint is the objective truth. (Again, unless Erika is insane.) E: Or it could be time for the resurrection of the trained non-human primate theory from the previous thread. Chimp-kun was the knocker. E2: Though I've tragically realised that that would be a violation of Knox's 8th. Goat-kun was the knocker remains valid however, as we have been properly prepared for his existence. E3: Though goat's don't have hands, violating Lambda's red. Foiled again. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 00:01
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Cyouni posted:Ah, but there's a simple answer. We know that the seagulls have been missing (as evidenced by their lack of crying), and Kinzo's body has never been seen. Ergo, it's Seagulls-kun, using Kinzo's body as a puppet to knock on the door. I see no flaws in this theory. Kinzo knocked, but Seagulls-kun was pulling the strings the whole time. BurningStone posted:If the clock was off, even by a few minutes, it would break a lot of red. I don't like that because I don't know why a human would care about fooling people about the time the letter arrived. Ever since the red text in the third episode I've been sure that there's going to be some sort of "everything happened at a different time" twist. Thing is, it never requires a directly present reason if you hypothesise that the clocks were changed earlier.* The most obvious reason to do it is to provide yourself with an alibi for a different period of time when you're actually killing someone. So the fact that you have the letter arrive at a certain point and make everyone believe it appeared at a different time, could well be to draw attention you in at place Y at time X when in fact it was never time X and at time X you were really in place Z. That said, I'm still broadly convinced by the "It never happened" theory. There was never a knock nor anyone hearing it. The narration (Lambda) was just lying. *E: Because I was very vague here, to be clear, I mean if the clocks were changed earlier to present an alibi at some time in the future, any particular event need not be the event the time that the alibi was intended for. Change the clock in a room and it's off for all future events, not just the one that the perpetrator needed the alibi during. The clocks can be incidentally wrong. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 11:02 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 10:35
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ProfessorProf posted:Higurashi spoilers: Which raises the question, why isn't her name Gammadelta? Unless I'm missing an obvious implication there. BurningStone posted:Shannon's accusation here means she's almost certainly innocent - the first suspect is never the real suspect. Unless the author is deliberately playing against that trope, of course. As was pointed out when it happened, there are only four seasons. It's easy to hide four pieces of paper in a room and then, when the target reveals the answer, direct them to the right paper. Or she just told someone. I mean, as a thread, we've picked out enough evidence to indicate that she is involved somehow (though I still don't see her killing George), but this is at best circumstantial. E: BurningStone posted:Ok, big change here. For the first time the game now cares about who. Up until now all the mysteries were about what was possible, but the finger never got pointed at anybody. And this episode we have Shannon accused by Natsuhi, and Natsuhi framed for Hideyoshi's murder. For all the trickery we've seen, nobody was ever framed before. So, the question becomes, is this purely to sow dissent among the people left, before the killer picks them off one by one, or do they genuinely want Natsuhi to suffer? Motivationally, I guess I'm asking: Does it matter that it was Natsuhi? Or would anyone have served the same purpose, and Natsuhi was the easiest patsy? CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 19:21
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I'm an idiot. I was only reading it as 3 and 4 rather than together as 34.
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Apr 11, 2017 19:29
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Qrr posted:So presumably they're going to cut their way into the room and find a dead Hideyoshi and a very suspicious Natsuhi. And no one else. Hideyoshi says "Who are you?", which indicates a person, rather than a trap. Or possibly a hallucinogenic drug, assuming that doesn't violate Knox's 4th. It also means that the person was either disguised, or someone we've not met. Either's possible. If the Kanon=Shannon theory is true, then we have a spare person (I don't think the Kanon=Shannon theory is true!), and otherwise someone's been dressing up as Beatrice in previous episodes, so disguises are definitely on the cards. I'd go with the possibility that the murderer was in the room the whole time. Natsuhi didn't hear anyone enter before Hideyoshi, and Hideyoshi chains the door. (Assuming, as you say, that he did lock the door.) Therefore, if entry is impossible, they must have already been there. E: Though Natsuhi doing it would be the ultimate narrator loving with us answer, and considering who the narrator is... CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 19:55
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| # ¿ Apr 30, 2024 08:39 |
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Qrr posted:We also have the question of how they directed Hideyoshi to that room. Maybe he tried lots of rooms and that was the only unlocked one. Or he was in on it, or he was blackmailed into going there, or someone recommended it. The directing question's harder. I mean, why was he crying? Was it because George is dead? Or was it because he's guilty, or was coerced into helping? I still think the "Who are you?" renders suicide unlikely. But if he'd been coerced in a similar way to Natsuhi, to come to that room, possibly after being forced into helping with the murders, everything makes sense. We already know there's something fairly sus about Hideyoshi from episode 3, so it's not impossible he's in on it. I think you must be right though. No matter how, someone must have told him to go there. Otherwise, there was a chance he wouldn't go for alone time and everything's foiled. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 20:03
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