|
CottonWolf posted:Which raises the question, why isn't her name Gammadelta? Unless I'm missing an obvious implication there. Wikipedia says that "in the system of Greek numerals lambda has a value of 30".
|
#
¿
Apr 11, 2017 19:25
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 14, 2024 12:25 |
|
|
|
|
#
¿
Apr 11, 2017 22:38
|
|
|
RedMagus posted:So I guess Battler's nickname/real name is Dante now? I would of figured it out sooner if he had silver hair. 
|
|
#
¿
Apr 12, 2017 15:39
|
|
|
thetruegentleman posted:That's actually a big part of why this seems so suspicious: they could confirm it, but that brings up the question of whether or not they *actually did*. I think it means that literally anyone, including you and me, could confirm they're definitely dead simply by looking at them, but your interpretation is valid. Since nobody can look at them, they're cats in a box.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 12, 2017 19:10
|
|
|
I can think of precisely one thing for which the anime gives a hint that didn't exist in the original VN.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 13, 2017 07:15
|
|
|
Or maybe they're openly showing you the answer and relying on you automatically doubting it 
|
|
#
¿
Apr 13, 2017 14:29
|
|
|
Erika is a goddamn pervert
|
|
#
¿
Apr 14, 2017 15:52
|
|
|
CottonWolf posted:Any of the cousins and/or Rosa could have killed the others then themselves. Even if Maria somehow could cut deep slices through adults' throats, never mind her own throat, where did she hide the murder weapon after death? Maria or not, the problem remains. Even if Battler as the first to find the bodies somehow managed to miss a bloody weapon, Erika couldn't have. tiistai fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Apr 14, 2017 |
|
#
¿
Apr 14, 2017 19:50
|
|
|
BurningStone posted:The existence of other, unnamed, people hasn't been said in red for this game, has it? Kinzo and Krauss are missing somewhere. It was confirmed right after Erika showed up that the number of the people on the island is only increased by one and that otherwise it's the same as ever. If you start supposing Culprit X here then you have to explain why it works for every episode. Also, the trial is far from over, don't worry about Kinzo and Krauss until they've been addressed. You're making kind of a false equivalence here. There might be ways to work around a locked room murder, but using detective's authority to seal a room from the outside is a different matter altogether.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 15, 2017 07:25
|
|
|
|
|
#
¿
Apr 15, 2017 15:04
|
|
|
Shame on you, anyone who even thought she might have been. Nappi would never kill anyone.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 15, 2017 15:43
|
|
|
EagerSleeper posted:Nappi? Yeah, it's a cute nickname. Cyouni posted:So there has to be some flaw there, some path that allows for that to happen. I lied, it's because Natsuhi really is the culprit here. Did you notice that Virgilia didn't specify that Natsuhi isn't the culprit for THIS crime in particular? That's right, it's just another meaningless, misleading red truth.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 15, 2017 19:38
|
|
|
BurningStone posted:You've hit on why I don't like Erika (besides being a horrible person). Before we've had the meta/discussion world and the real world and they were kept sealed from each other. We've been repeatedly reminded that "piece" Battler isn't the same as "meta" Battler. The actions taken by the real world characters have been reasonable for real world people. While we see many supernatural things happening in the real world, they're always debated, we're always asked "Did it happen that way?" The real story has to feel real, or the mystery breaks down into mush (as a number of people in this thread have complained). Players affect the gameboard, nothing new or strange about this. Erika's actions are what allows her to use red truth of her own via Bernkastel. There's no necessity for the witch side, Lambdadelta, to just give her free red regarding alibis without the seals and such. Perhaps Bern could've used those red truths she gave regardless of Erika, but like she said,  "...Yes, that's right. There's no need for us to show up for something like this. This is important precisely because a mere human like Furudo Erika will defeat you, Beato." "...Because you'll be defeated by a human, we'll know. We'll all know that the fake witch who calls herself 'Beatrice the Golden' is nothing more than a sub-human phantom."
|
|
#
¿
Apr 16, 2017 10:36
|
|
|
Rune Full Moon posted:So she started working at age six, and he met her six years ago both. She's sixteen. The EP1 translation Prof used is the original one. For comparison's sake, here's the updated one that the Steam version uses: She's 紗音. ......The kanji for her name are read as "Shannon". Now here's another name that's far from typical for a Japanese person. Back in the day, I was a kid myself, so I accepted her name without paying it much attention. Thinking about it now though, her name's pretty unusual, even though she's not a member of the Ushiromiya family. ...Maybe it's like a servant's `professional name' or something. ...If so, that might explain why her name's so similar to Kanon-kun, that kid I met earlier in the rose garden. She's a long-term servant who's served here since she was six years old. Her appearance had changed so much that I couldn't match her to the person of my memories, but we both knew each other six years ago. Notably, "I got acquainted with her six years ago" was changed to "we both knew each other six years ago". They had met even earlier than that, of course, since Shannon had been working there for four years before Battler stopped attending.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 16, 2017 17:43
|
|
|
Tired Moritz posted:Ghost Kinzo might had said it. Magic is real. Thank you, I'm glad we have someone with some sense in this thread
|
|
#
¿
Apr 17, 2017 00:42
|
|
|
 die the desu
|
|
#
¿
Apr 17, 2017 13:59
|
|
|
CottonWolf posted:Er... Well. Um. That's sure not how I expected that to go. Set him up how? She held off on giving that red after Battler was already resolved to fight anyway.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 17, 2017 16:22
|
|
|
 Sorry dude
|
|
#
¿
Apr 17, 2017 18:17
|
|
|
thetruegentleman posted:Still a fair number of important thing being overlooked: 1. His red is weak because it's baseless and - more importantly - he's not a witch, as was stated. Erika actually constructed her arguments and Bern stated them in red, they're not weak at all. 2. Battler is irrelevant to Bern, she's just playing the human side. 3. This was already denied in red. Resealing, even knowing the precise method (how many methods are there to putting duct tape on the wall?), would have left marks and there were none. 4. Better hope so.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 17, 2017 20:04
|
|
|
thetruegentleman posted:1. He doesn't need to be witch: he's fighting Knox and Erika, so those are the arguments his red needs to be able to defeat. 1. The problem isn't who he's fighting. "...In this court, if anyone other than witches is going to speak the red truth, they'll have to construct an appropriate proof for it. Erika has been following this procedure, right...?" 2. No longer relevant. Battler voluntarily gave his seat to Bern, so what does she need him now for? 3. Regardless, doing anything at all to the seals would have left marks. It doesn't matter what kind of marks or where, the red guarantees that there were none on any of the seals. Also, replacing a seal means discarding the original, and Bern said none of them were tampered with in any way that hindered their ability to act as seals, and because discarding or breaking a seal clearly means hindering its ability to act as one, none of them were discarded or broken. 4. Poltergrift posted:I'm almost certainly missing something, but couldn't Battler have used Knox to deny that Natsuhi was the culprit? That's not a red that has been said in the story and I don't understand why you guys keep repeating it. tiistai fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Apr 17, 2017 |
|
#
¿
Apr 17, 2017 21:47
|
|
.
|
oblongmeow posted:This last update actually gave a pretty thorough dump of red regarding the decalogue as Battler flailed his way through the fight, for anyone looking to argue interpretations: Yeah. Don't assume that the Ten Wedges of the Witch-Hunting Archbishop Knox are exactly the same as Msgr. Knox's Decalogue. ProfessorProf posted:Knox's 5th is not used in Umineko, as it's mainly a reaction to social norms from 1930s Britain. Also perhaps because Kinzo is pretty much the exact kind of person that the 5th would concern: a strange Asian man with inscrutable motives, whatever it may be you wouldn't put it past him. (edit: ah, beaten by TCL) tiistai fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Apr 17, 2017 |
|
#
¿
Apr 17, 2017 22:57
|
|
|
Cyouni posted:and left after 3:00 Erika would've heard it. Detective's authority, son
|
|
#
¿
Apr 17, 2017 23:38
|
|
|
Cyouni posted:The intellectual rapist was too busy creeping on Battler's room to not miss anything that happened in that room. This does not include the hallway outside. They were all in the same room, though, Battler and the victims.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 18, 2017 02:52
|
|
|
Cyouni posted:Are there not other guestrooms? In the scenario I propose, the victims are dead when Battler enters and Erika starts listening, and the killer is hiding out in another room opened with a master key. Ah, yeah, sorry. Could work, I suppose. The only rooms on the second floor that I can remember having been mentioned are the room where Nanjo usually sleeps, the cousins' room and the next room over where Erika was, but even if we assumed those three were the only ones, you could argue the killer went into Nanjo's room and slipped out with or without him knowing. So yeah, I would acknowledge that you could call Natsuhi/Krauss just an accomplice even though she/he did most of the murders. You've proven it was possible for them to be murderers. EP5 solved!
|
|
#
¿
Apr 18, 2017 04:01
|
|
|
resurgam, your post was very fitting, don't worry about it.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 18, 2017 14:56
|
|
|
Qrr posted:In this update we got red text about Kinzo not being anywhere outside the mansion, based on Erika "looking around". Looking around the entire island, including its second secret mansion. Complete nonsense. No, didn't you read it? She didn't look through the entire island. The fact that Erika didn't find any clues about Kinzo existing anywhere outside effectively proves that Kinzo doesn't exist anywhere outside. Knox's 8th, detective's authority. It's proof enough.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 18, 2017 18:51
|
|
|
Qrr posted:That is not how Knoxs 8th works. Having to present found clues for the viewer isn't included in the red. Oh, and she was pronounced a detective in red, so she is one, simple as that.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 18, 2017 18:57
|
|
|
Qrr posted:What does "presented" mean, then? That nothing at all is evidence unless the detective says it at some point (not when they discover it)? Being included in the story. It's not the detective's responsibility to present clues, it's the author's.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 18, 2017 19:05
|
|
|
Qrr posted:Then Knoxs 8th isn't a counter to anything. Just because it hasn't been presented yet doesn't mean it won't be later. That's exactly the kind of thing you said was third rate. Either way, it's the trial, there is no later.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 18, 2017 19:16
|
|
|
The family lived in the mansion when Rudolf was in elementary school (mentioned by Eva concerning the wolf petting thing) and the mansion's construction was finished in 1952 as mentioned by George in EP1, meaning that in 1952 Rudolf was between 6-12 years old. Rudolf could have been as young as about 22 when Battler was born. edit: Oops, I guess the mansion could've been constructed before Rudolf began elementary school. Potentially as young as 16, then? Definitely no older than 28. tiistai fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Apr 18, 2017 |
|
#
¿
Apr 18, 2017 21:08
|
|
|
Qrr posted:In fact, when Bern stated in red that they had alibis and someone complained, her only justification is that the red was true because it's red. I don't have a hard basis for this, but basically it comes down to some mixture of 1) Bern is a witch and witches are allowed to use the red, 2) Lambda let it slide because it neatly advanced the game and she didn't want to bother pressing the point and/or 3) she's girlfriends with the prosecution. DLord posted:Problem he got it from a Witch, so it works because if Miss "OC' can use them so can Battler. If the rule of Red Truth is broken by anyone the game is not valid any more.  "...Wanna try complaining about the rules and stepping down from the game? Isn't that the favorite move of you mystery people♪ If there's even a tiny element that goes against your expectations, you have a tantrum and totally stop thinking."
|
|
#
¿
Apr 19, 2017 09:41
|
|
|
KataraniSword posted:Yeah. If the truth isn't valid, it flat out can't be said as proven in ep 4 with the semantics between valid red Ushiromiya Battler is Ushiromiya Asumu's son versus invalid red truth "Ushiromiya Battler was born from Ushiromiya Asumu". It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born was fine. The red Battler couldn't say was "It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that I was born". idonotlikepeas posted:Man, I'm glad we didn't fall for this. lol e: Oh yeah, Cyouni gets the Bernkastel award for figuring out how Natsuhi fled the murder scene. Good job. tiistai fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Apr 19, 2017 |
|
#
¿
Apr 19, 2017 14:38
|
|
|
whitehelm posted:Did you miss when I told Cyouni how Natsuhi could kill Rosa and get away from the murder scene? I did, sorry about that. Still, it's a pretty dubious honor to want credit for. 
|
|
#
¿
Apr 19, 2017 18:36
|
|
|
thetruegentleman posted:Uh oh, Battler was only monitored by Erika until he screamed, at which point she ran off to look at all the tape, so she never actually bothered to check that someone was dead at the time Battler actually screamed: her entire theory is bunk if Battler has a second personality to make his thoughts unreliable, or if he ran out of the room to find help. As great as the detective's authority is I don't think it includes being able to observe people's thoughts, or am I misunderstanding something here
|
|
#
¿
Apr 19, 2017 22:32
|
|
|
Cyouni posted:Fine, I'll adjust my statement. Beatrice is not involved in the murders in this episode. If Cliff-Baby is Battler, this does not discount Beatrice and Battler being related. That's not much of a blue when "the witch wasn't involved in the murders" is the whole point the human side is trying so hard to prove.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 20, 2017 02:10
|
|
|
Dr Pepper posted:I think Cyouni means whichever human is behind Beatrice. That's still effectively saying "Person X wasn't involved in the murders" which is just lol
|
|
#
¿
Apr 20, 2017 02:55
|
|
|
curiousCat posted:Unless whoever (Kanon?) did kill Hideyoshi, which seems plausible. Hang on, let me get this theory straight. So, in this conspiracy scenario Eva now honestly believes Natsuhi murdered Hideyoshi despite being the one who framed her in the first place? Why doesn't she suspect people like Kanon who knew about the plan? Why did they, Eva in particular, leave Natsuhi in the closet if they knew she was there and had killed a person?
|
|
#
¿
Apr 20, 2017 12:16
|
|
|
resurgam40 posted:Well, I don't honestly think Hideyoshi's death was planned, if the First Twilight was conspiracy... In those, Eva was acting distraught, but seemed to me to only get a lot more personal once Hideyoshi was actually killed. Okay, so Eva was left out of the conspiracy concerning Hideyoshi's death. You suspected before that Battler was an accomplice, and seemed to base it partially on the fact that he stopped Erika from discovering Natsuhi - so I assume that means he was at least aware of the phone call that ordered her to hide in the closet, if he wasn't in fact the one who made it. Eva didn't know about this call. Doesn't that make Battler either a willing accomplice to murder or possibly even the murderer himself? Or was he fooled by the murderer too... but is playing along regardless even after seeing Hideyoshi's corpse?
|
|
#
¿
Apr 20, 2017 14:07
|
|
|
How was he killed?
|
|
#
¿
Apr 21, 2017 02:41
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 14, 2024 12:25 |
|
|
bman in 2288 posted:It's never been brought up. It's just "he dead lol" and that's it. But my question is: I forget if the family cares anymore where he is. Erika seems much more intent on getting her Oh sorry, I was talking about Hideyoshi. Krauss's death could be whatever, no way to figure that out.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 21, 2017 03:28
|
|