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Wow, I am finally caught up! Didn't make it in time for the end of last thread but at least I am somewhat on the ground floor for this one? First I have to say this is fantastic, both the story itself and ProfessorProfs LP efforts, plus the discussion seems so fun I decided to delurk. I even had this swell idea Kanon was the culprit while reading but the rest of the thread ended up already covering it and now I can't seem clever about it because I'll just regurgitate things resurgam, TLC and peas have been saying. Oh well. So I'll just say I'm on board the Shannon and Kanon are behind everything train since reading others theories have convinced me Shannon is also too suspicious. I don't buy that they are the same person though since that seems to require pretty much everyone on the island aside from Battler being in on it for it to work and if this is some Murder on the Orient Express where everyone is guilty I will be really disappointed. Two things though, one is a really tiny criticism/request. The music is really, really good but there seems to be missing links at the beginning of some of the posts? I'm assuming it is because Prof is cutting some chapters in half and the music from the previous update is supposed to still be playing. The problem is I'm never 100% sure when this is the case or if it's really supposed to be silent for a long time or if I should scroll back and look for the last music link. I'm sorry if this is really petty since I'm aware that in the big scheme of things it's not really a big thing, but it's something that has been bugging me. The second thing is that I have yet to see someone comment on this: http://imgur.com/a/3uQHL (sorry for the link, for some reason it kept showing up as broken whenever I tried to include it as an image) When I went back to get the image link for it I realised why, it's not included in the screenshots, just in the video for the end of EP4 with the "credits". Sneaky, but I am on to you  So my guess is that we really won't be seeing Ange again, which kind of sucks. And sort of related since I have ~ideas~ about this, but is Okonogi in this supposed to be the same Okonogi as in Higurashi (I read the manga) or is this a case like with Lambdadelta who just looks like someone from that and kinda shares a name?
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Mar 22, 2017 19:25
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| # ¿ Apr 29, 2024 01:38 |
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Rodyle posted:Okonogi is probably not literally the same (although that is possible) but is that at least that individual in this fragment. If I'm reading this right, you're saying Umineko probably doesn't take place within the same Fragment as Higurashi because Mental Timetravel and literal Gods would be magic and thus not real or something? (Higurashi spoiler). Anyway, I'm going to go with that it doesn't matter too much in the end, because the author clearly choose to reuse the character design/name for a reason and that is enough for me to suspect that the guy is shady as hell even if he didn't assist a madwoman with disembowelling a small child and gas a whole town in this story. Anyway, about Ange, it's clear that she died sometime during the events of 1998 since I don't see why the credits would lie to us. There's two options here, either she died when she jumped off the building in the beginning and everything was a delusion or she died on Rokkenjima after meeting up with the Sumederas. I really don't like the first option because that makes Ange's character development ring empty plus it would cast the information we got about the money envelopes and message bottles into suspicion. Why show us what happened after the family conference and then say it wasn't real? My theory on the sequence of events is that Ange meets Bernkastel at the top of the building and is given the opportunity to get revenge etc, but instead of just sending her to the tearoom directly Ange first has to go on a journey to learn as much as she can about magic and the witch and the incident in the real world. At the end of the journey she is killed on Rokkenjima and meets Bernkastel again who this time sends her crashing the Golden Land party at the end of EP3 and from that point onward she's just the Meta-version. I should probably throw in a side note here that I think Bernkastel, Lamdadelta and the Meta-World are all real and magic/supernatural things do exist on some level. It's just it's impossible for magic to exist in the real human world which is separate from all that. Please let me just have this or I'll lose my sanity. Anyway, I digress, my point is that Ange gets killed on Rokkenjima. I'm with the rest of the thread that what happens is Amakusa sitting in a tree with a sniper rifle taking out the Sumadera goons rather than schoolgirl Stakes just killing everything. One possibility is simply that Kasumi managed to shoot Ange before getting shot herself: quote:Kasumi's handgun spat fire. Slowly, that bullet continued through a world frozen to the utmost limit, aiming for ANGE's forehead. But it never says the bullet actually hits her and the scene continues on: quote:...Her hands... were holding a gun. This just sounds... strange  It doesn't sound like Sumadera at all so it probably isn't just an extension of that gunfight, and if it was a purely magical representation why represent it with just ordinary guns. What if it is exactly what it sounds like and Eva just straight up left a request with Okonogi to get rid of Ange after her death? I've been waiting like all of EP4 for it to turn out Okonogi was up to no good. There's been a lot of talk of people inheriting names and the whole deal with Kinzo in EP4 representing someone who took over his will. What if the Eva that appears at the end is just Amakusa carrying out Eva's last will?Also this is probably me reaching and confirmation bias since this is based on the freakin' white day update  but this is"Eva's" last words in the scene with Ange on Rokkenjima: This is from the White Day side story: quote:
From what I remember Eva never threw in random English words like that. Pretty sure that otherwise it's just Ange, Battler and Lambdadelta that does it. Also this was probably way too much effort for a single point that will probably never be revisited since Ange is now dead and the Meta-world is only concerned with what happened in 1986. tl;dr Amakusa shot Ange on orders from Okonogi because Eva is a really bitter person.
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Mar 22, 2017 23:25
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"...Aunt Eva... died."
"*giggle* Long time no see, Angeeee. I've come back from hell to kill youu! *cackle*cackle*!!"
"But... I'm not that surprised. Aunt Eva was that kind of person."
"I imagine my funeral came as quite a relief to you, right? I feel the same, since I'll never have to see your face again...! But I had just one regret. And this is it!!"
"Kyaaaaaaaaa, Mr. Amakusa, stay strong!!" 
"<C...cool>... ...grk."
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I was going to argue that the problem with Knox's Rules is that you'd have to assume the actual culprit was intentionally following them, but rereading them it seems like all of them would be about things that would be out of the culprits control, aside from possibly the one about "no unknown poisons/science", but if the point of that one is to prevent things like Small Bombs rather than no poisons ever (Wasn't Maria probably poisoned at the end of EP4 and we have never seen any poison around the mansion?) I'd let it slide. I mean, I still don't think that is any guarantee that all those conditions are actually in play and Bernkastel deciding that they are because she said so is some insane troll logic. What if it's not a mystery but a drama about the cycles of abuse, huh? Admittedly the only other time I've heard of Knox's Rules was in Zero Escape, and that series just brought them up to break them.
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Mar 23, 2017 08:19
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Joining the jesus christ Bernkastel train  I was on board with her being detached, bitter and overly pragmatic, but that is just taking glee in someone else's suffering.Though thinking about it some more I guess it makes sense with the themes about how abuse leads to more abuse? If she is the same Bernkastel as from Higurashi, becoming some all powerful witch and being on the outside of the "gameboard" is probably her first chance to hit back without any repercussions. ProfessorProf posted:Both Beato and I fought with all we had trying to win. The game repeated several times because we were both giving it everything we could muster. Then, that one time. We confronted each other head on with all of our strength. And then, Beato acknowledged her loss. She said she wanted me to end this game... and entrusted everything to me. Battler I like you and all, but if you thought that really looked like Beatrice fighting with all her strength in the last battle, George isn't the only one who needs glasses. It's kind of funny actually because during EP2 I couldn't wait to see Battler bring her down, but the whole ending to EP4 was just... sad and felt horribly unsatisfying.
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Mar 23, 2017 21:32
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I need to sleep on it but What The gently caress, that phone call was definitely voiced by Daisuke Ono aka Battler's VA. So did Rudolf sleep with Natsuhi and there was a switch with Asumu's baby/toddler/child? no wait there is still a year apart... Or is this a case of the voice casting agency being lazy and just reusing Daisuke Ono for a one time thing? More thoughts incoming after I get a nights rest. (PS if Koyasu Takehito or Mitsuki Saiga has voiced any character we haven't got a video of, I'll be sad.)
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Mar 24, 2017 22:56
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Okay I have had a rest now. Considering the the comment about the game not having voice acting originally and the description of the voice not matching up at all with the actual sound of the voice, I'll ignore the Daisuke Ono bit for now. What if the caller is Loli-Poirot from the beginning? The caller says they'll come to the conference and we know that she'll appear as an extra person. Maybe she's using some voice changer to gently caress with Natsuhi and the reason Natsuhi doesn't remember is because she'd expect the child to be a girl? Aaand scratch that because the caller said they are Natsuhi's son. But coming to the island and framing Natsuhi for murder would fit in with the revenge bit. Also maybe Loli-Poirot is a crossdresser idk. Or maybe it really is Battler and Rudolf stole/extorted/had some agreement and took Natsuhi's baby because both Asumu and Kyrie had still births? Would require Asumu to have been in on it though. Or this is a fantasy scene and there never was any phone call, or it was just a silent phone call and Natsuhi filled in all the blanks by herself because she's clearly losing her grip on reality anyway when it comes to Kinzo and everything. In which case its possible she had a baby before Jessica that died and all this magic talk about keeping the dead alive as ghost is bringing back memories of it. You know, I think I'll go with this one. It's the least insane one.
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Mar 25, 2017 08:02
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Whether Battler counts as a reliable perspective is kind of moot. Either Piece-Battler is still reliable, or Erika is the new reliable one. In either case they were together with Shannon and Kanon in the same room at the same time. So yeah, I'd consider that theory debunked. Also I'm still suspicious about that red about Erika not being the culprit. I'll buy that she can't be the murderer but does that prevent her being the accomplish or part of some minor crimes during this game? (Since the red about her not being involved with previous games seems ironclad). And unrelated, but poor Jessica if that was originally her clothes, no wonder she's rebelling.
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Mar 25, 2017 20:54
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I'm guessing this is our cue to solve the epitaph before the game tells us how to do it? In which case I got nothing. I had some crap idea about migration patterns of some butterfly that had one of the kanjis in its name, but it took me absolutely nowhere. I'll just jump on board TLCs Taiwan - RUDOL thing. Wow the game is really stuck on telling us how much like an Ushiromiya Erika is like  If she's Bernkastel's self-insert OC, isn't it super common to make those related to the original characters in bad fanfic? She might not be the culprit, but she could be the caller. THE SON THING IS A RED HERRING. (okay to be fair, if that was the case then why would Bernkastel ask Lambda to confirm the call in red?)I was also thinking about how we've generally accepted that Kumasawa, Genji and Nanjo are probably accomplishes. The game has also pretty much been yelling in our face about how Virgillia and Ronove are the magical counterparts to Kumasawa and Genji... So is Gaap supposed to be Nanjo?
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Mar 26, 2017 16:31
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oath2order posted:Hmmm.... I almost spit out my drink, it's too perfect. I don't care if old spirits or misplaced probably makes more sense, in my heart there is always room for Gaanjo. Tender Child Loins posted:Hey, Nanjo pulls that outfit off better than I would. I actually think Gaap might perhaps be a personification of the old demon spirits of Rokkenjima. That really is simple and goes with what Eva said about thinking like a child with word games  If this isn't the solution, or at least really close to it, I'll be surprised. As for what happens when the letters are all killed? From what Eva says it sounds like some directions are revealed by solving the riddle. Maybe the Quadrillion plate at the chapel will come loose and behind it is some "X MARKS THE GOLD" map? Or since she's suddenly in some tunnel it'll open some hidden door nearby. I don't care what Knox says, the entrance to the gold has to be hidden some way As for why the riddle is involved at all... Erika's reasoning sounds really solid and I don't doubt that Kinzo is the one who put up the riddle for display. We know it really does lead to the gold and Kinzo is the one who would have hidden the gold somewhere on the island. Plus the riddle has been displayed for 2 years and from this episode it seems Kinzo was dead for about 1,5 years. I don't think Kinzo would allow anyone else to put up portraits of Beatrice, Actually wait, if the chapel IS involved with the riddle, it must mean the riddle is older than 2 years, so yeah definitely Kinzo and I don't doubt for a second the reason is that he hates his kids and would love to see the gold snatched away from them. Though then it is weird he didn't just publish it for anyone to see, unless he hoped one of the servants would solve it. He was encouraging Kanon to solve it like way back in EP1. I was going to ask that the question is more why Beatrice sends the letter and asks the family to solve it every time, but I just noticed... THERE WAS NO LETTER THIS TIME.
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Mar 26, 2017 20:40
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my beloved theory, DR LOU) Again, all of this is contingent on two big assumptions: 1) Kinzo grew up in Taipei and 2) the "key" is Qilian, a station along the Freshwater / Tamsui train line. Simply by the existence of Google Maps, this level of reasoning is possible for TCL. What do you think, goons?
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Amidiri posted:Maybe that's not a purposeful decision by 'Beatrice' but rather a side effect of Erika arriving during the time frame where Maria would usually get the letter? I'm an idiot yeah this is probably why we didn't get the letter this time. And come on game, just tell us already! Though the bit with Rosa and the ten day journey made me wonder if the thread had been wrong, so I googled 京 to see if it would come up with some taiwan related thing but... https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E4%BA%AC  Apparently 京 can also mean ten quadrillion aside from capital city. So by Rosa's logic you start the journey of 1/10th of that... in other words at 1 quadrillion. My only question is if Atlases usually include train stations? Since the answer apparently can be found in an Atlas.
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Mar 27, 2017 16:17
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Tender Child Loins posted:To be honest, that was a part that really stumped me, and I read that conversation a few times. I still don't get it. That's the one niggling part of the epitaph clues that makes me feel like I'm off-base. Doesn't it have something to do with math? I mean, I might be influenced by the Quadrillion thing, but it says "you shall attain to the power of the Golden Land's treasures", as in "to the power of" like when you use exponentiation. It's the tenth twilight so ten to the power of something that is signified by the treasures, is what I'm guessing. the "once and for the last" bit might be a hint on how to quantify the treasures. I can't figure out how to get that to be 10 to the power of 15 though to make a quadrillion. So it might be another large number it refers to? EDIT: Wait, I think I got it. The treasures are 10 ton gold, the 13 dead from the epitaph, and 1 lost love. Alternatively, if we are being more literal and taking the two being torn apart as not being killed, it could be 10 ton gold, 11 dead letters, 2 torn apart, 1 sleeping witch. In any way you could count it in a way that would make it 10^24, which in the US is known as a Septillion as a short scale number, but in Europe that uses long scale 10^24 would be known as a quadrillion  This still does not explain the "once and for the last time" part though  RedMagus posted:Does anyone have a list of the first 6 people who are killed each game? I'm curious if any kanji/letters are consistent among the list each time. 1st game: Shannon, Gohda, Krauss, Rosa, Kyrie, Rudolf 2nd game: Krauss, Natsuhi, Kyrie, Rudolf, Eva, Hideyoshi 3rd game: Kinzo, Gohda, Genji, Kanon, Shannon, Kumasawa 4th game: Eva, Hideyoshi, Genji, Rudolf, Natsuhi, Rosa Eleanore fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Mar 27, 2017 |
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Mar 27, 2017 17:19
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Aisu posted:I'm not sure which I like imagining more: Beatrice making Sailor Moon cosplay replicas that contain actual magic, or Beatrice just straight up stealing all of Usagi's stuff. Not to ruin the magic, but in this context, isn't Beatrice just a coping method for Natsuhi being stressed beyond belief? In other words, Natsuhi is the Sailor Moon cosplayer! Maybe Jessica doesn't have to worry so much about her mom finding out about her after school activities after all.
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Mar 28, 2017 17:47
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| # ¿ Apr 29, 2024 01:38 |
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Wow, I go away for a funeral and then have to catch up on some studying and I ended up missing a lot.CottonWolf posted:I thought that with that line, but I don't understand Kinzo's reaction at all. You could brush it away with "he's insane", but within presumably a couple of months, he's lost young Beatrice and her child, and he seems completely chill about it. I'm very much in favour of that theory, and I think that it's a really odd response if it's right. I think he just snapped. From the timeline with the gold, it seems like the locked up Beatrice from Rosa's story can't have been the first one he met. No idea if she died or he just never got close to her like Dante's Beatrice. Anyway, instead he steals/adopts some baby and creepily keeps it locked up and raises it to be like OG Beatrice. This Beatrice is then killed when Rosa tries to save her, but she probably had a child with Kinzo before that. Then Natsuhi goes and loses the kid too and Kinzo is all out of good replacement Beatrices and locks himself up in his study to study actual revival magic instead of being a gross creeper raising kids to be his lost love. From his perspective Beatrice would have died on him thrice, probably a good idea to switch tactic at that point. As for the caller... at this point I wouldn't be surprised if the caller is just Natsuhi's guilt. Maybe she wished for the kids death a bit more literally like actually asking the servant to kill the baby? The only thing that makes me doubt it is the 'fall' card, but if the phone call is a fantasy scene, there's no reason the card can't be one too.
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Apr 1, 2017 21:37
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