Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
Pener Kropoopkin
Jan 30, 2013

Azathoth posted:

That's fair, but I guess I don't really think of Bubba as "neoliberal"

He literally said "the era of big government is over. "

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Azathoth
Apr 3, 2001

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

He literally said "the era of big government is over. "
Fair enough, but Bill feels a lot more like a living fossil than anything (kinda like Jeb! on the Republican side). I'll accept that he was neoliberal before there was a term for it.

Zerg Mans
Oct 19, 2006

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

He literally said "the era of big government is over. "

context, of course, being that his just lost in the midterm in ways that have never been rivaled. I'm sure if he just said "socialism now!" he could have saved welfare

Pener Kropoopkin
Jan 30, 2013

zegermans posted:

context, of course, being that his just lost in the midterm in ways that have never been rivaled. I'm sure if he just said "socialism now!" he could have saved welfare

He said that in 1996.

FuzzySkinner
May 23, 2012

Azathoth posted:

It seems like neoliberals are what happens when someone is both authoritarian and leftist but has spent their political career assiduously avoiding accusations of being a COMMUNIST or a SOCIALIST by being pro-laissez faire capitalism.

That's kind of what I was getting at.

I think what offends most blue collar red state types is idiots that will talk a big game, tell them they're the problems with the country, they're the ones that need to change, and then jet off back to their mansion.

This is kinda different than say a Bernie Sanders or a Dennis Kucinich who will go back to their districts, speak to people about the problems facing the country, and why their forms of government programs would help the working class.,

Pener Kropoopkin
Jan 30, 2013

People don't go neoliberal because they're afraid of being called a socialist, it's what they actually believe.

Azathoth
Apr 3, 2001

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

People don't go neoliberal because they're afraid of being called a socialist, it's what they actually believe.
I think it's both. I agree that they actually believe it, but it's also an ingrained non-socialist/communist message that gets beaten into people at a very young age, and which was used by the Republicans for decades to push Democrats to the right, so there's powerful social pressure within the Democratic Party to embrace it and not go "too far".

I think we're starting to see it change though, what with people like Bernie Sanders and Keith Ellison owning the socialist label and not getting immediately ousted from their seats, a lot of the "reds under the bed" type of messaging just isn't effective. Hopefully that keeps happening.

Venom Snake
Feb 19, 2014

by Nyc_Tattoo
The truth is very little elected officials hold any true ideology beyond what is enforced by their own perceptions of electability (which can easily be warped). "Neo-liberalism" is the default setting for most because it's as bland and unoffensive as possible. The stupid thing is that the average person is far less right wing than the democratic party thinks.

Forums Terrorist
Dec 8, 2011

zegermans posted:

context, of course, being that his just lost in the midterm in ways that have never been rivaled. I'm sure if he just said "socialism now!" he could have saved welfare

2010 lol

comedyblissoption
Mar 15, 2006

FuzzySkinner posted:

I think what offends most blue collar red state types is idiots that will talk a big game, tell them they're the problems with the country, they're the ones that need to change, and then jet off back to their mansion.
i'm sure hillary did nothing like that to confirm their worst stereotypes of out of touch coastal elites

quote:

You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? (Laughter/applause)

The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic — you name it[b]. And unfortunately, there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. [b]He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people — now have 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks — they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America. But the other basket — and I know this because I see friends from all over America here — I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas — as well as, you know, New York and California — but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they're just desperate for change. It doesn't really even matter where it comes from. They don't buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won't wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroin, feel like they're in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well.

comedyblissoption
Mar 15, 2006

While there are certainly true believers, the ideological and political arguments are mostly an ex post facto explanation to provide a facade over what the donor class wants: to make themselves wealthier.

Pener Kropoopkin
Jan 30, 2013

comedyblissoption posted:

While there are certainly true believers, the ideological and political arguments are mostly an ex post facto explanation to provide a facade over what the donor class wants: to make themselves wealthier.

It's also important to keep in mind that in most cases, our elected officials are themselves capitalists or at least wealthy professionals. They have their own class interests despite their voting constituencies.

Pener Kropoopkin fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Apr 30, 2017

Talmonis
Jun 24, 2012
The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

comedyblissoption posted:

i'm sure hillary did nothing like that to confirm their worst stereotypes of out of touch coastal elites

What about her statement is false? It was stupid to say out loud, but spot on for his screaming hordes at the rallies.

Agnosticnixie
Jan 6, 2015
If anything the main problem with the statement was that the dems were unable to own it largely because their appeal was meant to try to turn away voters who were the worse deplorables (white flight suburbans). Also their immediate backpedaling didn't help.

Nix Panicus
Feb 25, 2007

comedyblissoption posted:

i'm sure hillary did nothing like that to confirm their worst stereotypes of out of touch coastal elites

quote:

You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right? (Laughter/applause)

The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic — you name it. And unfortunately, there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people — now have 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks — they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America. But the other basket — and I know this because I see friends from all over America here — I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas — as well as, you know, New York and California — but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they're just desperate for change. It doesn't really even matter where it comes from. They don't buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won't wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroin, feel like they're in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well.

Whats amazing about that quote is that she hits the nail perfectly on the head, identifying exactly the segment of Trump supporters who could be appealed to with a little effort, and then proceeded to continue ignoring and failing to empathize with 'the other basket' for the entire election. And, of course, the quote displays the usual Hillary tactic of insulting and attacking a broad swathe of people first, thus tainting everything that comes after it.

Corky Romanovsky
Oct 1, 2006

Soiled Meat
:bagl: what a dumb

Forums Terrorist
Dec 8, 2011

Basically if she'd just not said the first part it would have been a good quote, after all clinton's not a stranger to racist pandering lol

Forums Terrorist fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Apr 30, 2017

FuzzySkinner
May 23, 2012


Whats amazing about that quote is that she hits the nail perfectly on the head, identifying exactly the segment of Trump supporters who could be appealed to with a little effort, and then proceeded to continue ignoring and failing to empathize with 'the other basket' for the entire election. And, of course, the quote displays the usual Hillary tactic of insulting and attacking a broad swathe of people first, thus tainting everything that comes after it.
[/quote]

Trump pounced on it too, and used it in ads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPfGxdx7dK8

But this is something a lot of lefties were calling out before this election. Hillary's surrogates kinda did the same tactic to Hillary's leftwing critics. It actually weakened actual claims of sexism/racism.

Also? Unlike the Left, the right doesn't give a poo poo, and will own up to the label.

comedyblissoption
Mar 15, 2006

Talmonis posted:

What about her statement is false? It was stupid to say out loud, but spot on for his screaming hordes at the rallies.
just because you may support some trump policies doesnt make you a bigot. there are legitimate economic grievances when someone is against globalism or illegal immigration and would prefer protectionist policies.

also the net of her statement is essentially cast super wide to denigrate conservative voters and independents.

comedyblissoption
Mar 15, 2006

also if you want to believe what she is saying is factual, please provide any statistical evidence absurdly attempting to objectively define bigotry that also doesn't ironically show her own supporters are similarly bigoted

rudatron
May 31, 2011

by Fluffdaddy

Venom Snake posted:

The truth is very little elected officials hold any true ideology beyond what is enforced by their own perceptions of electability (which can easily be warped). "Neo-liberalism" is the default setting for most because it's as bland and unoffensive as possible. The stupid thing is that the average person is far less right wing than the democratic party thinks.
That's not quite true, though it's probably what politicians believe about themselves. In practice, they tend to be a lot more open and welcoming to a selection of beliefs we can call neoliberalism, than any others. Compare and contrast the reaction to the tea party, to the reaction against the ahca bill even in red states - the tea partiers, advocating pro corporate policies, were consistently framed as 'grass root', yet the town hall reaction was framed as 'paid protestors'.

That is ideology at work.

Condiv
May 7, 2008

Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod


since when has this thread been in D&D?

Duckbox
Sep 7, 2007

Now?

E for content: The democratic party (and new labour, the french socialists, etc.) were partly victims of their own success. The post war years saw huge improvements in living standards and social welfare and that made established liberals less focused on class struggle and the rising tide to lift all boats and more invested in other issues of social justice and power politics. The neoliberal consensus emerged at a time when everyone was distracted by culture war issues and the fall of communism and since then has been maintained through inertia and the capture of the old left by monied interests.

Neoliberalism is great if you're an educated technocrat and so much of its opposition comes from ignorant assholes that a toxic elitism has been allowed to fester for far too long. The idea that the same rubes who are dead wrong on issues of war, justice, and civil rights might have legitimate greivances on trade and rural infrastructure runs counter to ingrained tribalism and the corresponding failure of the conservative "intellectual" class to address these issues in coherent and humane ways has created a vacuum for frauds and blowhards to claim this bloc instead. Since people like Trump are anathema to educated liberals if any stripe, the only conclusion must be that the people who voted for him are too stupid or evil to listen to.

Duckbox fucked around with this message at 02:53 on May 1, 2017

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 273 days!

Not a Step posted:

Whats amazing about that quote is that she hits the nail perfectly on the head, identifying exactly the segment of Trump supporters who could be appealed to with a little effort, and then proceeded to continue ignoring and failing to empathize with 'the other basket' for the entire election. And, of course, the quote displays the usual Hillary tactic of insulting and attacking a broad swathe of people first, thus tainting everything that comes after it.

eh around here we're guilty of all this too

it's difficult not to lust for death in this era of unmattering

Top City Homo
Oct 15, 2014


Ramrod XTreme

Condiv posted:

since when has this thread been in D&D?

whaaaaaaaa...


:yikes:

Talmonis
Jun 24, 2012
The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

comedyblissoption posted:

just because you may support some trump policies doesnt make you a bigot. there are legitimate economic grievances when someone is against globalism or illegal immigration and would prefer protectionist policies.

also the net of her statement is essentially cast super wide to denigrate conservative voters and independents.

The second part of the quote addressed those folks who agreed with that messaging, what little of it there was. The same people, who ignored blatant race baiting, promises of a Muslim registry and other swaggering idiocy that won him his primary. They're people who should have known better, and are more culpable than the morons screaming for Clinton's arrest.

comedyblissoption posted:

also if you want to believe what she is saying is factual, please provide any statistical evidence absurdly attempting to objectively define bigotry that also doesn't ironically show her own supporters are similarly bigoted

Sorry, statistical evidence is no longer a means of determining the truthiness of a subject, according to our new regime. I mean, I'm sure some are good people, but they're not the ones we need to worry about. And come off it. It's blatantly obvious to anyone watching that his are the people demanding a wall to keep "Mexicans" out.

SimonCat
Aug 12, 2016

by Nyc_Tattoo
College Slice

Talmonis posted:

The second part of the quote addressed those folks who agreed with that messaging, what little of it there was. The same people, who ignored blatant race baiting, promises of a Muslim registry and other swaggering idiocy that won him his primary. They're people who should have known better, and are more culpable than the morons screaming for Clinton's arrest.


Sorry, statistical evidence is no longer a means of determining the truthiness of a subject, according to our new regime. I mean, I'm sure some are good people, but they're not the ones we need to worry about. And come off it. It's blatantly obvious to anyone watching that his are the people demanding a wall to keep "Mexicans" out.

It might be racism, it's also fueled by the fact that companies have exploited Mexican workers to the detriment of American workers. "They took our jobs!" is a cliche thrown around D&D, but it is something that has happened. The most stark example I know of is the IBP meat packing planting in Sioux City, Iowa. Circa 1980, IBP locked out the unionized work force, built a shanty town on company property, and imported Mexican workers to do the jobs a a greatly reduced rate of pay. Eventually the union was broken and even if the American workers were hired back, it wasn't for the same wages and benefits they had enjoyed before.

Obviously the villain here is the company, but if you're someone who was displaced by imported labor, it's completely understandable that you would be angry at the immigrant. And the solution to that is not to just point a finger at the American worker and call him a racist.

Talmonis
Jun 24, 2012
The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

SimonCat posted:

It might be racism, it's also fueled by the fact that companies have exploited Mexican workers to the detriment of American workers. "They took our jobs!" is a cliche thrown around D&D, but it is something that has happened. The most stark example I know of is the IBP meat packing planting in Sioux City, Iowa. Circa 1980, IBP locked out the unionized work force, built a shanty town on company property, and imported Mexican workers to do the jobs a a greatly reduced rate of pay. Eventually the union was broken and even if the American workers were hired back, it wasn't for the same wages and benefits they had enjoyed before.

Obviously the villain here is the company, but if you're someone who was displaced by imported labor, it's completely understandable that you would be angry at the immigrant. And the solution to that is not to just point a finger at the American worker and call him a racist.

Agreed. It just astounds me that anyone would trust the idea of protectionism or worker protections coming from the Republican Party. The party who killed their unions, pushed NAFTA, cuts their benefits, openly calls them lazy for being poor and gives the world to the Trumps in the country. Why would you trust a man known for not paying his workers, cheating his clients and being a general shitheel with bringing you prosperity instead of lining his own pockets as he always does? You wouldn't if you were paying the slightest bit of attention. But you might if he "knocks down them uppity scientists a peg or two" and talks poo poo about all the people that sub-rural bumfucks hate. Spite and hate for the educated and progressivism in general were big factors.

SimonCat
Aug 12, 2016

by Nyc_Tattoo
College Slice

Talmonis posted:

Agreed. It just astounds me that anyone would trust the idea of protectionism or worker protections coming from the Republican Party. The party who killed their unions, pushed NAFTA, cuts their benefits, openly calls them lazy for being poor and gives the world to the Trumps in the country. Why would you trust a man known for not paying his workers, cheating his clients and being a general shitheel with bringing you prosperity instead of lining his own pockets as he always does? You wouldn't if you were paying the slightest bit of attention. But you might if he "knocks down them uppity scientists a peg or two" and talks poo poo about all the people that sub-rural bumfucks hate. Spite and hate for the educated and progressivism in general were big factors.

And the Democratic party was hand in hand with passing NAFTA and rolling back protections in the name of compromise. If the Democrats don't protect a worker's livelihood, and otherwise have different values and norms, what do they offer?

The people get it too. Here's a quote from a 1987 article about the strikes. IBP started as a "small business", it disrupted the the status quo of the meat packing industry, made money for the company, and hosed over the workers.

NY Times posted:

Iowa Beef was started in 1960 with a $300,000 loan from the Small Business Administration and a strategy for transforming the staid meat-processing business, in which most of the principal cost is labor.

The concern began by moving its plants out of the big cities, away from the terminal stockyards and into cattle-raising areas like Dakota City. By contrast, the old-line companies like Wilson, Armour and Swift tend to be situated in big cities far from the cattle range, and for years they continued to ship the carcasses, which still had to be cut up by local high-paid butchers.

What aroused deep discord among workers, though, were Iowa Beef's efforts aimed at increasing productivity by introducing assembly-line butchering. By getting each meat cutter along the line to make the same cut over and over again - say, removing the hoofs or tail, or slitting the abdomen - Iowa Beef was able to argue that its workers were not skilled butchers handling whole carcasses but semi-skilled laborers, and should be paid accordingly.

The company's money-saving techniques helped render obsolete major stockyards and packers in Kansas City, Chicago and elsewhere and made it the industry's pace-setter. But success in the marketplace did not trickle down to the workers, according to union officials and rank-and-file members.

''We made them a better living then they ever thought of giving us,'' said Fred Norstrom, a weighing-scale operator who has worked at the plant here for 15 years. ''They want to steal it back from us. No place else ever gets nine years of wage freeze. There's no place else that a man can work for $7 an hour anymore.'' 'It Makes You Like Dirt'

Condiv
May 7, 2008

Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod


SimonCat posted:

And the Democratic party was hand in hand with passing NAFTA and rolling back protections in the name of compromise. If the Democrats don't protect a worker's livelihood, and otherwise have different values and norms, what do they offer?

The people get it too. Here's a quote from a 1987 article about the strikes. IBP started as a "small business", it disrupted the the status quo of the meat packing industry, made money for the company, and hosed over the workers.

can't wait for time travel to exist so we can have temporal immigrant workers

"us from 15 years ago took our jobs!!!"

SimonCat
Aug 12, 2016

by Nyc_Tattoo
College Slice

Condiv posted:

can't wait for time travel to exist so we can have temporal immigrant workers

"us from 15 years ago took our jobs!!!"

Not sure what you're getting at here.

Typo
Aug 19, 2009

Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

SimonCat posted:

Not sure what you're getting at here.

it's a south park reference i think

Condiv
May 7, 2008

Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod


SimonCat posted:

Not sure what you're getting at here.

not actually getting at anything, it was just a joke

Typo posted:

it's a south park reference i think

south park did do that didn't they...

Condiv fucked around with this message at 20:01 on May 1, 2017

Meme Emulator
Oct 4, 2000

Poor people say cringey poo poo all the time.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.
Electoral strategy aside, I'm not really comfortable saying that someone willing to sell out their equally powerless neighbors in the hopes of saving themselves isn't a piece of poo poo.

Main Paineframe
Oct 27, 2010

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

Electoral strategy aside, I'm not really comfortable saying that someone willing to sell out their equally powerless neighbors in the hopes of saving themselves isn't a piece of poo poo.

Pieces of poo poo deserve healthcare, justice, food, and housing too. If you think that basic human rights should be available only to those who "deserve it", you're hardly different from them.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

Main Paineframe posted:

Pieces of poo poo deserve healthcare, justice, food, and housing too. If you think that basic human rights should be available only to those who "deserve it", you're hardly different from them.

What on Earth made you think I think any of that?

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Jewel Repetition
Dec 24, 2012

Ask me about Briar Rose and Chicken Chaser.
Edit: wrong thread

  • Locked thread