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flatluigi posted:the entire point of the game is that it did matter after all lol How did it matter? Maybe if they had committed and made you kill/shake based on your actions. But no, literally the only difference in the "real world" is the choice you make after the simulation ends. I always find it frustrating when people try to explain endings or plot beats as though the knowledge there's foreshadowing or meaning behind them erases how a person actually feels about it. Or that a person can't "get it" and also dislike it. The ending was deflating for me. I thought they were trying to recreate Morgan and the simulation was them testing if their reprogramming or cloning or whatever was successful. And still the reveal that you were some random typhon and they were using the simulation just as a test of empathy drained all my enthusiasm for the story. It just deletes everything you did. Who you saved or killed. Whether you blew it all up or just the typhon. None of it mattered because none of it was real and none of it had consequence. It's kinda amazing to me that they set up the perfect scenario to have a binary morality system make sense and then just threw it away. In Dishonored I change the way a little girl locked up in a building somewhere will eventually rule based on how many guards I merk, but they make it a choice in Prey? The only way to make the simulation matter and they don't even use it. Everyone judging your actions is just like maybe yes maybe no I dunno possibly who can say and then you pick from 2 choices. So weak. Dishonored doesn't need the binary morality because my actions are "real" and thus will have consequences even if the game doesn't explicitly spell them out. I can imagine the consequences myself. In Prey they literally wipe out all your actions if they don't add an explicit consequence.
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Nov 11, 2019 00:35
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Very few games want you to think of them as meaningless simulations when you play them though.
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Nov 11, 2019 01:20
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Point is when someone says "It being an unconnected simulation makes it less enjoyable to me." Saying "All games are simulations" is not helpful because games are trying to make themselves not feel like simulations. Games try to make your actions feel meaningful even though they can never be because they're just video games. They do that by making them meaningful within the context of the video game and then have you suspend your disbelief. Prey, IMO, fails to do this because there is no consequence within the game world to all of your actions before you make the final choice. Even games infamous for ending choices feeling like they disregard everything you did before like Mass Effect 3 and Deus Ex: Human Revolution still had things you did along the way be things that actually happened in the game world and thus carrying some kind of consequence even if it's not spelled out.
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Nov 11, 2019 01:34
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Bust Rodd posted:I honestly feel like anyone who finishes Prey and comes away thinking "And in the end, nothing you did matters" is either a fullbore sociopath IRL or just lacks extremely basic reading comprehension. It is very common for people to complain about the ending of Prey. Whether it is a fundamentally bad or good ending, it is a very divisive ending. I think it's interesting to explore where the difference comes in but I'm not really getting anything interesting from the other side to make the conversation worth it. 
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Nov 11, 2019 19:46
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I would have preferred the ending if one of two things happened: 1) They made the ending sequence based on your actions in the simulation entirely. Have the judges actually make a stance on what it meant when you did X or Y. Then have the kill/shake be determined from it, maybe add another one where Alex does his "this is not the one" thing from the escape pod but he also doesn't have time for another go so has to risk it. I guarantee some people would be mad at that one but it would have worked for me. 2) Explicitly spell out the entire simulation and its purpose to the player at some point near, but not at, the end. Give me time to process exactly what is happening before I finish the game so I'm not feeling deflated at the very end of the game. I more or less came to terms with the ending after the fact, but losing me at the very moment the game ends is not ideal. I feel like you really don't want me to be thinking "so it's all pointless" at the end of the game before finally coming around to being relatively okay with it after the fact. The way I feel at the end of the a game sticks with me to an extent regardless of what comes before or after.
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Nov 12, 2019 00:24
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When does Mooncrash get good? Like it's fine now but it's nothing special from the base game because it doesn't seem to have started really doing its thing. I've just escaped for the first time with the first dude, second time playing for reference.
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Nov 13, 2019 21:12
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Oh, Mooncrash has a timer. Whelp. I'd be a little less pissed off at developers putting mandatory timers in games if it was just my problem, but whenever you look up "<game> timer" there's inevitably tonnes of complaints about the timer if the game has one. It should just be something you can change at this point, like hotkeys or colors. Anybody got a let's play recommendation?
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Nov 14, 2019 05:52
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Okay, so the mooncrash timer is not oppressive but it's also not good. They should have just added triggers for higher corruption in the game instead. Each section you visit and each escape ups the corruption for instance. As it is now I largely ignore the timer itself, but the presence of a timer makes me rush more than I'd like. Moon shark can also eat a dick. It's balanced to the point that it's not really worth fighting normally so I used to just sprint through the crater and emp the typhon gates and now I just start every game with some tentacle grenades so I can insta-kill that idiot. I kinda like it now, prepping for enemies brings back some nethack feelings, but I think you run into it too early so you develop a hatred for it before you figure out your options. It needed to be deeper into a run. I just gained access to the security officer's story so I can unlock the janitor. I'm enjoying it but it's also disappointing. It's a really good proof of concept and makes me want something else like it, but between the Prey combat and some bad balancing decisions I'm not completely sold on this specific iteration.
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Nov 16, 2019 02:14
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DreadCthulhu posted:I'm probably in the very small minority of people who didn't enjoy the Bioshock series that much at all. The intro to the first game was rather engaging, but it devolved into a generic shotgun shooter for the rest of the game. I don't know if generic is disparaging enough for its combat. Shooting limited ammo at a bunch of tweakers as they twitch about has never been fun.
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Dec 10, 2019 12:47
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Original Deus Ex is to me still the best 0451 game ever made. The main reason is I think how minimal the combat can be in that game. If you play it stealthy most of the "combat" is you sniping dudes or whacking/zapping them in the lower back before they can do anything, They worked much like obstacles similar to doors or cameras or consoles. You weren't so much fighting them as circumventing them. I think unless a 0451 is willing to go hard into combat to the point that it could carry the game by itself, I think the best approach is to minimize the actual fighting you're expected to do. Basically the same way I feel about hacking minigames and the like: if I'm in your game for one thing, don't tack on other systems that aren't as good as they just get in the way. Anything that distracts from the exploration, looting, overcoming obstacles and the story is probably going to drag the whole thing down. Almost the whole time I was playing Prey I felt like the game would be much improved if I wasn't actually expected to fight much if anything.
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Dec 10, 2019 18:46
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It's not like Bioshock had good shooting for the time that aged poorly. It was always loving terrible even for its time. People either didn't know better because they hadn't played better shooters or they overlooked the shooting for other things like the atmosphere or powers. And those distractions are not as impressive anymore, leaving the shooting to have to try and stand on its own more.
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Mar 22, 2020 04:17
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DC Murderverse posted:it also went off the rails during the last third, the reason the political aspects of the story were so poorly executed (among other reasons, there's definitely a bunch) is because the story was never about those aspects, it was about their dumb parallel worlds bullshit. That whole game disappears up its own rear end. My recollection is that Ken Levine is a very anti-commentary kind of person. They used objectivism in Bioshock 1 out of pure aesthetics. It wasn't meant to actually be commentary on objectivism and he was unimpressed people interpreted it that way. They walked back some seemingly-anti religious stuff in infinite before release from memory too. I imagine the child-killing revolutionaries were part of the same attempt to say nothing.
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May 24, 2020 17:28
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If we had access to parallel universes I'd bet on changing the ending to just a fade to black (maybe a voiceover from the protagonist hoping they made the right choices) and stripping all evidence of the simulation would have been better received overall.
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Jan 2, 2021 01:36
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There honestly hasn't been a lot games like this over the years but coming to it having skipped the last few years definitely leaves you with a grip of really good games to come back to. Imagine coming into the Hitman reboot series in Hitman 3? Just loading them all up into the one game and going through them fresh. Especially if you're someone who wants to go back and do all the challenges and whatnot without needing the episodic structure to force you.
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Feb 14, 2021 21:53
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Yep that's the Prey experience. A very good game that leaves most people with that impression.
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Feb 16, 2021 22:12
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I hate horror and didn't find Prey to be offputting in that way. I literally refuse to play horror, watch horror, or watch other people play horror. Never touched a RE game or anything close to that. When playing Prey it was clearly trying to evoke a bit of horror, especially with the mimics being walking jump-scares and the phantoms being pretty creepy, but it was also clearly not trying to be a horror game to me. More a sci-fi game with some horror elements. Like, it contained horror, but it wasn't itself horror. Don't know if I'm explaining it right. It was too well-lit and clean-cut to feel horrific maybe.
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Feb 17, 2021 09:03
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They're definitely going to put some kind of timer into Death Loop and it's going to make me hate it. Best thing about these kinds of games is just taking your time to pick it clean and explore and poo poo. If Mooncrash didn't let you break the timer I would not have enjoyed it I don't think.
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Feb 25, 2021 04:11
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Mongolian Queef posted:I hate timers too but according to this, "you're not on a timer"! This makes it seem a bit Hitman-ish. Which is promising.
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Mar 3, 2021 14:32
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Kibayasu posted:This isn’t a character build tip but a combat thing a lot of people miss. You will find an electrical stun gun and while it can and will be used for that purpose it is also for dealing with robot (and robot adjacent) enemies. Yeah at a certain point robot enemies will become much more prevalent than before so make sure you can deal with robots. Some people ignored robots because for most of the game they don't matter much, only to suffer once they become more common. I had this heads-up when I started playing and was very happy to have prepped for robots.
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Apr 19, 2021 00:08
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Serephina posted:First: No, you will get that enemy regardless, the only difference is in a line of dialogue when you first see it. It's an interesting problem. I loved Nethack conducts and thought they should come to more video games. But now that we've seen it in achievement form it definitely feels like a net negative. Maybe a system where those sort of achievements don't unlock on your first playthrough? Ideally they shouldn't be something you shoot for on your first playthrough but are rather things you do to spice up repeat plays. Though that will get some Steam people real mad. They get pretty serious about their achievements sometimes. Phigs fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Sep 10, 2021 |
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Sep 10, 2021 23:45
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GlyphGryph posted:The Nightmare is supposed to be there as a fun enemy to fight, not something to just hide from (unless you like hiding I suppose)! Also a good source of materials for more neuromods. There's a reason the satellite can be used to call it as well as dismiss it, and the second use case is mostly for a "I really don't want to deal with this right now, I'm busy" sort of situation. I was always excited when he showed up to get a chance to try out whatever my newest powers were or to figure out the best way to fight him in a new location. First time I ran into it I thought the game was bugged because I could no longer stealth and I was getting found by enemies I should have been able to slip by. I ended up restarting the area a few times try to "unbug" the enemies. Then eventually I gave up and just blasted everyone and then saw the thing, which had been blocked from my location because of geometry. Then I looked it up to see what was going on. And then I stopped using stealth entirely and just shotgunned everyone to death because that thing can just spawn on me whenever so who gives a gently caress. The next few times I just booked it and hid to get rid of it. Then after that I had enough power to just slow time and blast it to death. At no time did it ever feel compelling, it just undermined a lot of the rest of the game for me. The fact that Deathloop had an AI player hunter in the same vein is largely why I didn't bother picking it up.
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Dec 26, 2021 09:05
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Serephina posted:Yea, but do you think people keep track of that? Going loud attracts all guards in a wide radius so you can end up depopulating certain stages if that's all who they have, and that's assuming you kill nothing but nameless NPCs and spare all the coup members who really really deserved it. Yeah IMO this kind of thing is very dumb. I didn't use any typhon mods in my one playthrough of Prey because they made that a thing. So I skipped a big part of the game because they made an explicit typhon/non-typhon dichotomy. Just like I didn't kill anyone in my first Dishonored play and never played with any of the lethal toys because they made low/high chaos dichotomy. I don't see what it adds to the games that they keep going for it. All it does to me is make me play with less of the toys they put into the game and presumably have less fun than I would have otherwise.
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Jan 7, 2022 09:00
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Shockeh posted:So, don’t? It wasn't about the achievement. They had that ooh Typhon mods will change you story/gameplay element so I went oh okay I'll avoid using those then. I don't really care for my personal enjoyment, that's why I said "presumably" I had less fun. I just think it's dumb they keep on doing these things that cause players to skip content. If it was just me then whatever, but it's not, it's clearly a problem with their approach.
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Jan 7, 2022 10:54
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Previa_fun posted:this is an absolutely insane thing to say in a thread about a video game in a video game forum Lol, fair. What I meant to say there was that I enjoyed those games anyway so I wasn't really upset that their systems caused me to play in a way that missed some of their content. I wasn't the one who went into the effort of putting in toys that players skipped because of some dumb meta system. And I have no real stake in whether players enjoy those games. Developers should care though. I've been thinking the gimmick achievement runs should only unlock after your first play through. So it could read "Complete the game at least once, then complete a playthrough without any typhon mods." That sort of thing really exists to make replays more interesting so might as well restrict it to those explicitly so players feel free to play however they like the first time through. Can also make them non-achievements, some kind of internal system that doesn't affect gamerscore/platinum if devs think the amount of effort required to do all the gimmick runs is too much for players. I know it's a meta system not strictly part of the game, but achievements do influence player behavior so developers should put more thought into how their achievements are sculpting play.
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Jan 7, 2022 22:27
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Khanstant posted:so you would never choose to not be a murder-man just out of your own feelings towards killin folks? maybe there should be a god and heaven if that's totally necessary for some mindsets The part I bolded in your post is a big part of the reason why I don't like it really. A player deciding to play a certain way because it appeals to them personally is great. A player playing a way they wouldn't naturally because of something the developer did can be good if the developer is deliberately nudging the player into a more fun or interesting playstyle. I think with Dishonored and Prey they're designed to give the player a bunch of tools and let them go at the world however they choose but the meta dualities they put in the games detract from that for some players. Dishonored could maybe have worked with better execution by making players empathize with the guards and encourage non-lethal that way. Instead of having this metagame chaos counter that increments on death. But I think Prey's dichotomy was straight up a bad decision. I don't see any way it gains by separating out the typhon and human trees so explicitly and drawing attention to it with the whole turrets will see you as a baddie mechanic. It just makes people more likely to ignore a section of the game.
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Jan 14, 2022 02:58
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aniviron posted:I like moonsharks. I find them very satisfying to kill. There are no satisfying to kill enemies in Prey.
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Aug 7, 2022 16:57
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Mimics were the best. But everything felt too abstract and ethereal to feel satisfying. Like fighting smoke.
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Aug 7, 2022 20:18
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Serephina posted:The DX (lead?) dev went on record saying that they didn't want players locked out of endings due to things they did hours ago. While other titles have since embraced that limitation, it works well for DX in its own way of being open-ended and crawling through levels to see everything and then have a philosophical chat with someone about it at the end. I feel like the solution would be better telegraphing the endings and making sure the players have what they need to make the decision before the end. Take the endings of Deus Ex, you could easily have the player choose the ending before the final mission and then tweak the final mission accordingly. The final level doesn't have anything in it that couldn't just be moved a bit before. Have everyone make their spiels about what you should do and then the one you pick to side with gets you to the base and helps you through it and the ending fires when you finish the level. Instantly better. A lot of the problem with "locking in" endings is that players can do it without knowing what the ending is. So you get things like "do I side with X?" where players are trying to see what doing that gets them. They don't know if they want the X ending because they don't know what the X ending is but they have to choose the X ending before that knowledge and thus feel locked in. They get new information that may make them want to change, but they can't. If the question is "do I want to plunge us into a technological dark age?" then that's something the player can answer much earlier and thus not feel like they're locked in. Just gotta make sure the player has what they need to make the decision at the point of decision. Phigs fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Sep 13, 2022 |
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Sep 13, 2022 20:59
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A lot of things in games are more-or-less-[something reductive] though. The entire medium is basically a series of illusions to hold everything together. For me, making me actually go through the level to activate my choice made it feel like I had more agency and that it was more of an expression of myself and my character. I know sitting back it's really not mechanically that different, but it had an entirely different feel to me.
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Sep 14, 2022 01:13
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CowboyAndy posted:See, I never had that problem on my first playthrough when I tried to ghost it. You just have to accept that you will probably be caught at some point and be prepared to run or fight your way out of it. Attempting to stealth the game is significantly more fun when you don't quickload. The ideal of a stealth game is where you feel challenged but never fail. It's close to how Hitman 3 feels for me now that I've played so much of the trilogy. I still fail sometimes but most of the time I'll succeed as long as I'm careful, and it feels great. As you pointed out quickloading makes the game less fun, but I also feel the same about going loud, and depending on how the game works I often feel the same about escaping and resetting because it's basically just a longer quickload. I know people say they enjoy stealthing until they get caught and then going loud but I've never found that very satisfying unless the plan was specifically to go loud but maybe take a couple down silently first. If I'm trying to stealth through a section it's because I want to play through the section stealthily. If I wanted to go loud I'd have gone in loud. So being forced to go loud is essentially a kind of soft failure state. The big problem is getting stealth to be that tightly balanced for a player. Especially since there's no stealth bar that lets you make a few stealth mistakes like there is a health bar for combat. Though I suppose there could be. Just give you a limited amount of temporary invisibility that triggers when you would otherwise be spotted. Though that might not feel as rewarding. But either way I think the core problem of stealth games is that getting caught in a stealth game reduces the fun regardless of what the player does as a response.
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Sep 23, 2022 17:42
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I went in the freezer because that's how you get more quest in video games. Including Prey. If you don't go in the freezer you don't get the freezer sequence and you don't get anything else in return.
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Jun 5, 2023 02:02
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I found the ending very unsatisfying, it drained all the enthusiasm I had left after the slog of the endgame and lessened my overall opinion of the game. A lot of the distaste faded with distance but it still makes me think less of the game. I've heard plenty of arguments as to why it works or why it's not bad or whatever, but none of them change the way I felt when I encountered the ending. And I've seen plenty of other people say the same. I think it's just the kind of risk you take when you do this kind of ending, no matter how well you decorate or twist it, you're still delivering a kind of thing that typically drains audience engagement with the story. I think games should be a lot more conservative with their endings in general. If I'm finishing your game I probably like it and all you have to do is not mess that up. If you stick the landing I'm going to primarily remember the fun I had up til then; if you mess up the ending it's going to overwhelmingly affect my opinion of the game. If you're thinking of padding out the game with backtracking or reusing assets, putting in some ending twist, or just not putting effort into the endgame I think you're taking a pretty bad risk. If Prey had just skipped the whole Dahl section and rolled credits as soon as you make the final choice I think it would be a better game simply because by the time you hit those points it's already done what it does best.
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Jun 16, 2023 15:09
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SCheeseman posted:Does the problem stem from the simulation you exist in within the story not being "real", in which case do you need to be reminded you are playing a video game? This theme is echoed in the facade opening of the game too. Partly, yes. Suspension of disbelief/mentally situating myself in the scenario is important. I'm playing a video game yes, but while I'm playing this video game I am Morgan Yu dealing with a Typhon infestation on Talos 1. For the duration of the game I'm behaving as though the scenario is real even though I know it isn't. I'm invested in the scenario. When you reveal the scenario was all fake, then I lose that investment. And then the game ends. So I'm left feeling empty where that investment used to be. They could have gotten away with it potentially if they revealed it earlier and then spent the rest of the game investing me in the new reality. But they didn't. For example I love the Princess Bride movie, which is just a grandfather reading a work of fiction to his grandson, but it sets it up at the beginning so you're in the right mental space for it. If the story thing had been a reveal at the end it would have been very jarring. I did do the alternate ending, but I thought it was a recreation, perhaps to try and rebuild/clone Morgan's last personality by rerunning the scenario until it aligned with what actually happened. Which preserves the reality of the scenario. The reveal could have been that you were running a simulation of what actually happened, that if you succeeded then what you just did was a recreation, instead of just a madlibs typhon version based on what Morgan did. If it was a recreation then what you did within the world mattered within that world because it's what actually happened. In the ending we got, nothing you did mattered because it was a pure simulation. And the character I am playing is some random typhon I have spent 0 time getting to know. You spend the whole game playing Morgan Yu only to wake up and realize that not only it was all essentially a dream, but you're not even the person you were in the dream. There's a meta narrative there that some people find cool, but it comes completely at cost of the main narrative. Keep in mind that everything above is a post-facto examination. I wasn't sitting there running thse thoughts through my mind until I decided the ending was not what I wanted. I felt it, and this is me figuring out why I think it happened.
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Jun 16, 2023 18:27
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Mr.Hotkeys posted:My wishlist gripe I took away from the game instead is that I wish the game had played more into [spoilers...] This is a good point and plays into why I didn't like the ending. The ending leaves a lot of the existentialism and psychological horror angles behind and basically turns them into background lore for the setting rather than a central part of the story. In the end, Prey's story is much more about aliens than it is about memory and psychology and the self despite all the very interesting setup for the latter, which I think is a pretty big downgrade. The soundtrack really does kick rear end in general. I actually have Mind Game in my regular music playlist and I'm not normally a game music kind of person. Phigs fucked around with this message at 07:55 on Jun 17, 2023 |
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Jun 17, 2023 07:00
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UP AND ADAM posted:Did they ever consider making the aliens and robots look a little more distinct and cooler? No! You will fight vague whirling fog and you will like it.
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Jun 19, 2023 17:13
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Imagine a poignant play performed really badly, so badly you cannot get past the performance and suspend your disbelief. In that case it wouldn't matter what the play was about or how good the writing was; you're not going to connect to the characters, you're not going to connect to the story, and it's all going to fall completely flat. It doesn't mean you lack empathy, but that the performance failed to connect with you such that it could engage your empathy. It's not entirely on the audience to empathize with a piece, the piece has to also meet the audience where they're at. In Prey I was relating to everything going on. I very carefully saved all the people I could including those enslaved by the mind control Typhons. I shared the information you can hide because I thought the person should know. And so on. It wasn't that I couldn't relate. If I couldn't relate I wouldn't have given a poo poo about the ending. The problem is that I was relating until the ending broke things for me. Phigs fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Jun 19, 2023 |
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Jun 19, 2023 19:51
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Lt. Danger posted:but it's not a story performed badly. it's just a story that, at the end, reminds you that it is a story. per your own words, this was enough to make you dislike the whole thing Right, but the point I was trying to make is that there are things that can break the audience's connection such that the underlying story doesn't matter. And Prey shifts the ground under your feet and then doesn't give any time for you to adjust to the change. I guess some people just adjust to the change and are fine with it. But for myself that apparently breaks my connection to the story and makes for a very unsatisfying ending. Also I didn't dislike the whole thing, I just liked it less than I would have without the ending.
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Jun 19, 2023 20:37
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Lt. Danger posted:okay. bluntly, I have a very different approach where "suspension of disbelief" is an obstacle to engagement rather than something to aspire to. I engage with a work because its form and/or content interests me - that's my connection. being reminded it is just a story doesn't threaten that connection, though I suppose becoming dull, false or trite does I (think I) completely understand your perspective but I'm definitely built differently. I'm not sure saying it's "on me" that I lost the connection so much that it just different people react to things differently. There's certainly enough people who feel the same that I don't feel especially weird over it. What makes Prey interesting to talk about is how it affects people very differently. Even the combat and exploration I've heard wildly different takes on. Part of why I would say that it's arguably a bad ending is because of where Arkane is now. I agree with Butterfly Valley that divisiveness is not a bad thing in a work of art. But if not appealing to a large enough audience has lead Arkane to where it is now then maybe they needed a different approach. I don't think the ending specifically had much to do with it, but in hindsight Arkane needed at least a slightly more mass appeal approach to their work in general. I'd say making the combat more satisfying and the enemies more "normal" would probably have had the biggest impacts. Maybe even making the main enemy zombies, as much as I'm not a huge fan personally.
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Jun 19, 2023 21:23
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I mean I specifically said I didn't think it was because of the ending. Just that I think Arkane needed to think more about how general audiences would take to things in their games than they did. That divisiveness might make good art, but it doesn't necessarily make for great sales. And I'm not saying it was the only thing, like marketing as you mention. I think you're potentially reading too much into what I'm saying there. It's not meant to be a super strong point, just an aside really.
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Jun 19, 2023 21:30
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I didn't think the ending supports all the actions being what literally happened. When they assess the Typhon they say things like "they did X which could mean Y", implying they're just testing for empathy, not for recreation precision. If they were they'd say "they did X which Morgan also did" or similar. It wouldn't really make sense to judge the actions of the Typhon if the simulation was on rails.
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Jun 19, 2023 23:00
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