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I could be wrong here but I think what we want to do is launch air to ground operations well before the C-130 arrives to locate and destroy hostile ground threats and then have a CAP and escort for the C-130 planned out for when it arrives? Also this is probably a very dumb question but Yooper does the French government have any satellites or other recon assets over or in the AO that could help us locate the hostiles?
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Apr 29, 2020 21:12
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koolkevz666 posted:Also this is probably a very dumb question but Yooper does the French government have any satellites or other recon assets over or in the AO that could help us locate the hostiles? That's a good question. Lemme look into it. Edit : Yes. They can offer us use of the CSO Imager. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composante_Spatiale_Optique No guarantee what it'll find, but seeing as French Nationals are moving on the aircraft they're willing to help. Yooper fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Apr 29, 2020 |
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Apr 29, 2020 21:26
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That's an awesome sat. It's going to take me some time to plan this mission but I am working on something. I'll do my "google recon" shortly and post that too.
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Apr 30, 2020 00:56
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Oh man, I really like this. Feels like a proper Ace Combat mission, escorting this lumbering transport by performing aggressive SEAD. I don't think I'm up to planning one for this, but I'm really looking forward to what the rest of you cook up.
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Apr 30, 2020 01:18
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What does "Flight crews are not to be at ready status as excessive heat will degrade airframes." actually mean for us? Is it just that we can't use fast turnarounds or that we also can't use e.g. "Ready 15" to react to changing situations so everything is pre-planned only? Or something else entirely?
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Apr 30, 2020 02:16
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This is a fascinating map. We're operating over the least-developed part of the Trans-Sahara Highway. From In Guezzam in Algeria to Arlit in Niger are about 230 km of sand tracks. Occasionally still traversed in 4x4 vehicles and convoys, although much less these days. This is also the area of Algeria where the French conducted some of their nuclear tests. The French flights are landing at an airport that is adjacent to an American drone base. Apparently in the Hired Goons timeline it is subleased via the National Geographic to the Niger government, but I wouldn't doubt the Americans still have people there. The airport at Tamanrasset was also upgraded by American contractors, ostensibly on behalf of NASA as it was an alternate landing site for the space shuttle, but since then American and Algerian special forces have trained there together and there are local rumors that it contains a CIA listening antenna.  This is the view looking E from Aguenar-Hadj Bey Akhamok Airport. You can see the Haggar Mountains are quite rugged and the same goes for Tassili N'Ajjer National Park, which is where the command post, the SA-17, and some MANPADs were reported. South from the Haggar Mountains there's the Sahara for real to the Niger border and then the Aïr Mountains around Agadez (where the opfor infantry is hanging out). The Aïr are a bit flatter Also in the above pic at the bottom left you can see the hangars the Americans added to the base. It's easier to see from the overhead but there are also four Algerian flankers sitting on the tarmac in the satellite photo. This isn't a bad place to base a number of our assets as we can stick them in sun-shaded hangars and it has a great location and two runways. Yooper's airport list seems exhaustive. Nothing else to say on that account, there are a number of big airports here and a number of sand strips. The caravaners almost certainly know the local oases and spots where water can be found. Those seem the prime places to scout to locate mercenaries trying to tough it out in the desert, as water supply is a really big problem if they aren't being fed with water tanker trucks, which would leave a pretty observable logistics trail. I would strongly suggest placing the radar at In Guezzam. We don't have a great place on the various mountains to put it so we won't be able to use it other than to detect the aircraft from Mali and Burkina Faso. This should also cover the operation of drones in the open desert. F-15 patrols will have to sweep the mountains themselves from above. Since we have 48 hours, even without regular turnaround we might be able to do scout->sanitize, rearm, and follow that with the actual escort. I will investigate this possibility. If anyone has google-able recon questions they want answered go ahead and ask. TheDemon fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Apr 30, 2020 |
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Apr 30, 2020 02:34
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power crystals posted:What does "Flight crews are not to be at ready status as excessive heat will degrade airframes." actually mean for us? Is it just that we can't use fast turnarounds or that we also can't use e.g. "Ready 15" to react to changing situations so everything is pre-planned only? Or something else entirely? It just means no Quick Turnaround. If it's ready it can go. This is mostly to let the mission pace stretch out. Yooper fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Apr 30, 2020 |
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Apr 30, 2020 03:28
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Scout, Strike, Re-Arm, Escort is definitely going to be the way to play this. Clear out what we can, then bring 'em home. We're definitely going to want a few strike birds alongside the escort either way.
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Apr 30, 2020 13:49
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Well I haven't submitted a plan in literally years but given that nobody else seems to be in a rush to submit one for this op, what the hell, why not. Naturally this means I decided to go all-in on the most complicated thing possible; apologies in advance to Yooper if this one wins given I have a bunch of nonstandard WRA settings and other such nonsense. I'm just going to assume I have done at least one thing horribly wrong here since it's been a while so please let me know if I have you (the reader) scratching your head. Operation Destructive Interference Executive Summary:
All aircraft (and the HELLADS) based at Aguenar to shorten ranges to potential targets and as this appears to be one of the only two-runway airports in the AO. Flights: Square: 4x F-15I, 6x AIM-120C-7 WRA: One AIM-120C-7 per target; no launch authorization vs. "Air Contact - Unknown Type", "Micro-UAV", any "Reconnaissance and Electronic Warfare", "Low-performance Bombers", and "Less Capable Fighter/Attack". Sawtooth: 4x F-15I, 6x AIM-7M EMCON: Search radar and DECM on at launch WRA: Limit AIM-7M max launch range to 25nm (to reduce odds of missile running out of energy) Sine: 4x F-15I, 8x GBU-38 with 2x AIM-120-C7 WRA: AIM-120C-7 launch prohibited at mission start unless the pilot believes they will be destroyed and the missiles lost General: Ordnance jettison when under attack allowed. Bandstop: 4x Su-24M2, 2x Kh-31P High-Pass: 4x Su-24M2, 2x Kh-59 WRA: Kh-59 launch not authorized vs "Land Contact - Unknown Type" If mission timing results in nighttime launches where the Kh-59 cannot be used, High-Pass should instead be armed with 6x S-24B (Hi-Lo-Hi). This removes the above WRA restriction. Low-Pass: 4x Su-24M2, 6x RBK-500 (Hi-Lo-Hi) Fourier: 1x Patroller, ELINT + Radar Misc/Other: Remain at a maximum of 5000ftl AGL at all times. 1000ft preferred if operators believe risk is low enough to justify it. Zebba is to infiltrate an airbase that may base JF-17s (he may use his discretion and any intel he may possess in selecting which one) and report aircraft launches. Global orders: All flights are to be grouped into elements of two aircraft each. "Odd" or "leftover" aircraft caused by losses or rearming into a different loadout are to launch individually once all two-ship elements have launched. All aircraft are to obey AO restrictions; i.e. no entry into Mali. Firing at hostiles outside the AO is permitted. WRA restrictions may be overridden if the pilot believes doing so is necessary for their survival. If Fourier is destroyed, allocate a replacement Patroller for the next phase. Do not launch a new Patroller within the same phase due to the Patroller's low speed. Patroller operators are permitted to adjust route and altitude to avoid threats. Hired Goons air defense section is to keep its radar on at all times unless it believes there is significant risk of hostile ARMs. Air-to-ground strafing is NOT allowed. This is primarily a defensive op, it is not worth the risk to the pilots and airframes. Unless otherwise specified above, aircraft are to have search radar and DECM off at launch. Each individual flight goes radar/DECM active if any aircraft within that flight detects a hostile aircraft or a ground-based radar (or radar-guided SAM), or believes they need their search radar on to locate an intermittent or unknown contact (air or land). No aircraft equipped with DECM should have search radar on but DECM off at any point. All flights go radar/DECM active if any of:
Mission begins 48 hours before the C-130 arrives. The mission is broken into three phases. Phase 1 (immediately at mission start): Launch Fourier first, Sawtooth second, Bandstop third, High-Pass fourth, and Low-Pass fifth. Square flight is assigned to Ready 15 (or whichever the shortest allowed is, given the heat). They will only launch if either of:
Fourier is to patrol the area roughly bounded by Idles, Tamdjert, Bordj El Haouas, and Ahaggar National Park. Sawtooth is to patrol the area around friendly airbase for hostile air threats. Bandstop is to split up according to its two elements to provide better coverage of the suspected SA-17 area. Sine, High-Pass, and Low-Pass are to similarly wait for ground targets that aren't the SA-17. Sine is to prioritize engaging JF-17s if they appear and is not permitted to use AMRAAMs vs. any other airborne target. Low-Pass is to prefer MANPADs sections. High-Pass is to prefer single harder targets. These are suggestions and may be overridden during execution as makes sense. Bandstop is to keep at least one aircraft's Kh-31s in reserve for the SA-17 if other radars reveal themselves. All aircraft must RTB in under four hours after launch to remain on schedule. A goal of three hours is preferable. Unless currently in combat, this is to override engaging any targets of opportunity except the SA-17 or JF-17s. If Square did not launch during Phase 1, they are to remain at Ready status and launch if a JF-17 is sighted. Phase 2 (when all aircraft [Square excepted if they launched after Phase 1 ended] are rearmed or T+24hrs, whichever comes first): If Square expended AMRAAMs in Phase 1, any remaining AMRAAM inventory is to be prioritized to Sine flight. Any aircraft in Square or Sine without sufficient AMRAAMs to rearm their Phase 1 loadout are to be converted to Sparrows. Aircraft from Sine rearmed with Sparrows are to be reassigned to Sawtooth, keeping two-ship elements. Any aircraft rearmed with Sparrows are to inherit Sawtooth's WRA restrictions. Orders follow from Phase 1, except the patrol area is now the area between friendly airbase and Gougaram. Reset EMCON before launch to state before Phase 1. If Sawtooth has lost all aircraft, then Sine is to activate radar and DECM at launch. If Square activated between Phase 1 and Phase 2 due to JF-17s, they are not to be allocated to Phase 2. Otherwise, Square returns to (or remains in) Ready state and does not launch unless a JF-17 is sighted. As before, all aircraft are to RTB in under four hours; specifically, they are to RTB at least 20 hours before the C-130 is scheduled to arrive. Phase 3 (when the C-130 is approaching): As above, Sine flight gets priority on any remaining AMRAAMs. Any aircraft in Square or Sine without AMRAAMs to rearm their previous loadout are to be converted to Sparrows. Aircraft from Sine rearmed with Sparrows are to be reassigned to Sawtooth, keeping two-ship elements. Any aircraft rearmed with Sparrows are to inherit Sawtooth's WRA restrictions. If Sine has no aircraft remaining, any aircraft beyond 4 in Sawtooth are to be returned to Sine for purposes of dividing escorts for increased coverage. Bandstop flight is to rearm into Kh-58s unless sufficient stocks of Kh-31Ps remain for all members. High-Pass, Low-Pass, and Bandstop are to be set to Jettison Ordnance Allowed for Phase 3. All aircraft are to launch with search radar and DECM on for Phase 3. Select "lead" flight as:
Launch High-Pass, Low-Pass, and Bandstop once the C-130 and escorts approach within 50nm north of Aguenar (i.e. they don't need to pass overhead, just that they're on their way south). Fourier flight is not assigned to Phase 3. "Lead" flight accepts handoff of C-130 and will provide direct escort and is not to separate more than 20nm from the C-130 at any time. The other two F-15I flights will provide escort at a separation of ~50nm east and west. The more numerous flight should be assigned to the west if there is a difference. High-Pass, Low-Pass, and Bandstop are to engage targets of opportunity but should try to trail behind the F-15Is. If the SA-17 has not been destroyed by Phase 3, the C-130 and escorts are to fly as far to the east as permitted by AO restrictions and fuel limitations. The escort flight that would have been to the east of the C-130 is to move ahead (south) of the C-130 instead but retain the ~50nm separation. All aircraft are to land with the C-130 at Agadez rather than returning to home base. Su-24M2s should land before F-15Is, fuel permitting. e: clarification that aircraft converted to Sparrows should keep the minimum launch range plus minor formatting updates. power crystals fucked around with this message at 15:09 on May 4, 2020 |
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May 3, 2020 04:29
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power crystals posted:Sawtooth: The 'limit sparrow launch range' is a good trick and I approve, though. Its nice to see someone else using it! TheParadigm fucked around with this message at 15:36 on May 3, 2020 |
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May 3, 2020 04:50
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We'll wait a few more days for mission planners, otherwise we'll roll with Power Crystals plan and head to the desert.
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May 4, 2020 11:55
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Going to start on the mission this evening. So if you're planning on posting one please let me know. Otherwise prepare yourselves for Operation Destructive Interference! edit : We're expecting a message from Zebba any time now. He's somewhere in the Algerian desert scouting for us. Yooper fucked around with this message at 18:25 on May 7, 2020 |
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May 7, 2020 18:09
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Woop woop, here we go! It's been forever since I've last checked in on this thread and wow. So glad to see the aerial insanity is happening again, especially since it's been less than a week ago that HG seemed to be bleeding over into the real world just off the Venezuelan coastline. e: question for Power Crystals, what are we hoping to do with Low Pass? Cluster warcrimes are fine and all, but it seems that using them in an environment where there are modern MANPADS is asking for trouble, especially since I don't think we have any objectives that really justify them? bibliosabreur fucked around with this message at 22:52 on May 7, 2020 |
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May 7, 2020 22:49
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 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUZpxV67m48 Zebba! has informed ops that he's headed west into Mali and will advise if he encounters anything of interest.
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May 8, 2020 20:07
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aww man i need the pose!
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May 8, 2020 20:24
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bibliosabreur posted:e: question for Power Crystals, what are we hoping to do with Low Pass? Cluster warcrimes are fine and all, but it seems that using them in an environment where there are modern MANPADS is asking for trouble, especially since I don't think we have any objectives that really justify them? Somehow I got lucky enough to catch your post before you edited it so my apologies for missing this: my intent was to try to use Low Pass to get rid of the MANPADS groups to flush out bigger threats and to make it safer for our drone to spot things we actually care about, but we don't have a ton of great options for doing so (especially as all the Eagle A/G loadouts require allocating AMRAAMs). Clusters seemed the most likely to successfully take them out in one pass though I guess the incendiaries would also work. Sine would probably work better if we get a solid fix on their position but I was assuming they'd be too busy swatting aircraft to use their bombs. And hopefully the Hi-Lo-Hi settings at least make them only vulnerable during the attack, the Lo-Lo-Lo one just seems like a great way to get shot down. I was kinda assuming we'd get at least one other plan to compare with for details like that but oh well. Now I'm just gonna sit here all  (regardless of that comment, don't worry) until it's over since there's quite a few variables here and this is actually the first time I've ever had a plan selected.
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May 8, 2020 20:28
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power crystals posted:Launch Fourier first, Sawtooth second, Bandstop third, High-Pass fourth, and Low-Pass fifth. Question. Do you want all of these to launch consecutively as soon as runway space is available? Or is it launch one, wait till it RTB's, then the next, then the next etc. ? I'm testing everything now and may shift to an ~24 hour scenario. Flying around Algeria hunting MANPAD's is painfully realistic, ie lots of flying and not much action.
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May 10, 2020 14:21
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Yooper posted:Question. Do you want all of these to launch consecutively as soon as runway space is available? Or is it launch one, wait till it RTB's, then the next, then the next etc. ? The former. The goal was to get the Patroller out first due to its dreadful speed and then get the CAP out before the ground strike aircraft. If CMO decides to mix it up slightly as it is often wont to do that's fine, I just didn't want the patroller lazily plodding out of the airbase while the bombers are already engaged. Though reading that apparently I forgot Sine so uh whoops, that should be after Sawtooth (Square of course is supposed to stay parked). If it's 24 hours instead of 48 then I guess I'd just drop phase 2 entirely and expand the patrol area to that entire corridor, but still start with the north as based on the intel we have I'd expect the majority of contacts up that way. In-game maybe just adjust the patrol area(s) once the north seems clear?
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May 10, 2020 15:45
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How worried are we about the MANPADS, really? If the Herk transits above 15kft AGL, they shouldn't be a problem. The only scenario I can see the MANPADS being a threat is if they're squirreled up close, near the airbase itself. And if they're that close, we should be trying to kill them with the HELLADS. 
bibliosabreur fucked around with this message at 17:58 on May 10, 2020 |
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May 10, 2020 16:29
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bibliosabreur posted:How worried are we about the MANPADS, really? If the Herk transits above 15kft AGL, they shouldn't be a problem. The only scenario I can see the MANPADS being a threat is if they're squirreled up close, near the airbase itself. OOC : We're probably going to have to get some ground units. The new terrain and cover model in CMO can make detection challenging. And by challenging I mean drone flying over EMCON cold SAM in cover and not seeing it. I think it's pretty realistic as a bulldozer in cover is going to be very difficult to detect. For this mission I've added a bunch of Caravan's (GAZ Tigr's named after different RV's & Motorhomes). They are on a roving patrol and we can't control them. Kind of like a blind squirrel roaming for a nut. The terrain model is new and making me re-learn some of my concepts. This is cool, and it's going to add another layer. Unfortunately the HELLADS can not target ground units. It can, however, roast a bote.
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May 10, 2020 18:26
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Yooper posted:Unfortunately the HELLADS can not target ground units. It can, however, roast a bote. This seems like an egregious oversight and worthy of a sternly worded letter to the manufacturer. In-character.
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May 10, 2020 20:55
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Bacarruda posted:Oh boy, we're talking about J-CATCH! Where can I find this? This sounds fascinating
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May 10, 2020 21:15
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Warmachine posted:This seems like an egregious oversight and worthy of a sternly worded letter to the manufacturer. In-character. I'm sure Our Man In Washington knows the right people at LockMart to handle that letter, and perhaps a few more to handle the, uh, presents, we included with it.
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May 10, 2020 21:52
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 Operation Destructive Interference is complete and it was a success. The SA-11 and SA-17's proved to be deadly and the JF-17's attempted to go around our patrol area and zap the C-130 but luckily we edged them out. Talks are currently ongoing between the French and the Niger government. Already additional patrols of Rafale's and a D'assault NEURON are scouring the Algerian desert for those drone bases. More details to come! quote:SIDE: Hired Goons I'll get the video uploaded tomorrow.
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May 11, 2020 02:59
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20 PL-12s and 20 SA-11/SA-17 missiles fired by the hostiles (plus another 23 stingers) and we only lost 7 aircraft plus the Patroller? I think I'll count that as a successful plan unless the video reveals that we did something very stupid. I did not expect to see the GBU-38 count that high though. Excited to see what actually happened.
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May 11, 2020 03:31
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yeah chalk that up as a good one
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May 11, 2020 03:35
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Yep we lost a couple guys but we gave a lot better than we got. Notably two of our Fencers basically flew right over a MANPAD site and caught a brace of them. We really felt the lack of radar coverage towards the end too, the JF-17s almost evaded us entirely. I'm curious to see a full map of the area and how much stuff we didn't detect. We only found that one drone base because we flew almost right overhead with a LITENING pod and we know there's at least two more unaccounted for.
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May 11, 2020 03:48
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Wait did I miss a stream somehow or is this just details mentioned in the discord that I probably should have joined like three years ago?
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May 11, 2020 03:58
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power crystals posted:Wait did I miss a stream somehow or is this just details mentioned in the discord that I probably should have joined like three years ago? I think Yooper wasn't going to be streaming this one, but I could be misremembering.
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May 11, 2020 04:54
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The IAI searcher looks like a newly born executive aircraft. As it matures it will lose its residual sensor pod, the fuselage will become rounder, the twin tail will grow longer and thicker, and its propeller will enclose itself, becoming a turbojet.
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May 11, 2020 06:24
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power crystals posted:Wait did I miss a stream somehow or is this just details mentioned in the discord that I probably should have joined like three years ago? OOC and Spoilers below. Erm, it seems I did forget to post a link in the thread. Welp. Detection Chat. Those drones. I'm going to perform some more testing but like people mentioned on Discord, we've always had an air based AEW platform. As far as ground units go, yes, they are going to be hard to find. One issue I had with CMANO was the ease at which aircraft detected ground stuff. Now I think it feels about right in CMO. It's going to be how to strike a balance between known targets, unknown (but foreshadowed) threats, and surprises. There was actually 5 drone bases and 3 drone launch trucks. On top of that there was like 20 civilian truck units rolling around. The SA-17's and SA-11 were found and killed, but only because they went EMCON hot (2 out of 3) every 15 minutes for 1 minute. Previously in my testing they went undiscovered until they fired upon our units. So I made them flip-flop and at least go hot at intervals. At that we still lost planes to them. There was 8 MANPADs and about 20 infantry spotters. We never saw a single recon team and I think the drone detected one MANPAD prior to it firing. The SU-24's ate a comical amount of Stingers and just kept on with the mission. I knew detection would be tough, I've underestimated just how tough it was going to be. God forbid if we get into an actual jungle. Though at that point we'll need infantry or something.
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May 11, 2020 12:17
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Yooper posted:I knew detection would be tough, I've underestimated just how tough it was going to be. God forbid if we get into an actual jungle. Though at that point we'll need infantry or something. Would having the SAAB and Gorgon Stare Reaper have made much of a difference?
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May 11, 2020 15:15
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Yooper posted:I knew detection would be tough, I've underestimated just how tough it was going to be. God forbid if we get into an actual jungle. Though at that point we'll need infantry or something.
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May 11, 2020 19:00
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So what I'm hearing is that we either need our own, or need to have on long-term retainer, a good persistent recon asset. Gorgon Stare is a very big ask, and I doubt there are any other flying camera assets that comes remotely close. We have our own drones, but not enough, it looks like. Browsing the CMANO-DB, I am rather liking the MC-12W recon plane, which looks like a Beech King 350ER that the USAF crammed a FLIR into. It's fragile as all get-out, of course, so it can only be deployed after the airspace is thoroughly sanitized by Eagles and SEAD, but as long as we keep it out of MANPADS range it should provide decent coverage. And I'm sure it's not the only flying camera, or even the best. That's assuming we don't just spring for a whole bunch of recon-only Predators or the like. However...absolutely no promises on anything being able to spot MANPADS. For those, I propose a hard floor of 12,000 ft for all missions unless specifically ordered otherwise. Going forward, I think we may need to accept that there are just going to be a lot of things, potentially important things, that we won't be able to see on our own, and that even with expanded recon assets we'll need to work with others to be able to find anything on the ground. bibliosabreur fucked around with this message at 19:52 on May 11, 2020 |
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May 11, 2020 19:48
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bibliosabreur posted:However...absolutely no promises on anything being able to spot MANPADS. For those, I propose a hard floor of 12,000 ft for all missions unless specifically ordered otherwise. Going forward, I think we may need to accept that there are just going to be a lot of things, potentially important things, that we won't be able to see on our own, and that even with expanded recon assets we'll need to work with others to be able to find anything on the ground. I'm going to do some testing on detection and find out what is reasonable. I believe we saw MANPADS engage targets above 12,000 ft, though the drone could have been 12,000 ASL, and not AGL.
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May 11, 2020 21:39
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For what it's worth, the Stingers have:pre:TargetAltitudeMax TargetAltitudeMin TargetAltitudeMax_ASL TargetAltitudeMin_ASL SnapUpDownAltitude 4876.8 60.9 19812 0 4876.8 Also bring back the Shackleton for AEW, it was the perfect combination of useful and terrible.
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May 11, 2020 22:01
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power crystals posted:I don't think any MANPADS launcher ever has had an engagement altitude of 19,000 feet. Might be that the missile won't work above that height if you fire it from the top of a mountain or similar.
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May 11, 2020 22:10
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power crystals posted:For what it's worth, the Stingers have: That's...gotta be in meters, right? No way in hell does Stinger only have a ceiling of 4876 feet. That actually works out to a service ceiling of about 16,000ft. Welp. Time to adjust our floors. (Like you, I am ignoring the Max_ASL values for now...)
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May 12, 2020 00:21
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I'm pretty sure everything is feet
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May 12, 2020 00:39
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Gnoman posted:Might be that the missile won't work above that height if you fire it from the top of a mountain or similar. Yeah, that being the missile's maximum altitude would make a lot of sense. And as far as I know every measure of linear distance in these databases is feet or nautical miles and it's usually pretty obvious which is which. I don't think I've ever seen it use meters. Yooper, did the video ever finish rendering?
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May 12, 2020 00:59
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