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I mean, I've mostly seen ft and nmi in the game, but but in the case of that statblock, 4000-ish feet for MANPADS ceiling is just demonstrably false. 4000-ish meters makes a lot more sense. (Similarly, I'm pretty sure that's why we see "60.9" show up a lot as a minimum altitude for a lot of weapons--it's very weirdly specific if it were in feet, but if it were in meters, it works out to almost exactly 200ft. So what I'm sure of is that the database stores values like these in meters, and IIRC you have the option for displaying metric or Imperial in gameplay.)
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May 12, 2020 01:11
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| # ? May 5, 2024 10:13 |
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  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nbe6IKLUM8 (Still processing, might take a bit) The Council of Five (our client) has met with the French delegation and are securing some "technical" aid. We're not exactly sure how that will manifest itself but we know some French syndicates are getting involved with the Niger extraction corporation. In other words, Niger is becoming a conduit north outside of ORMEC controls. Of course the price is still dictated so Niger is getting the benefit without paying the dues.  The organization we faced is second tier, but more importantly not hired by the Nigerian Triumvirate. This is straight up ORMEC. It's still unclear exactly what the mission was as some of the assets were decidedly not for intercepting the French C-130. We think the biggest fear of ORMEC is a rail line connecting Niger and the Algerian coast. But back to Nigeria!  The Nigerians have brought in outside contractors to upgrade air fields. Notably revetments, increased access points, and they are currently adding taxiways that double as back up runways. There is rumor of a Swedish style road basing system but S2 doesn't believe they have the technical skill to make it happen. Beyond just technical help is secondary ops teams on retainer to cover other portions of the country. HAMMER is now devoted solely to Anti-Hired Goons ops. Before we head into the next mission phase we are being asked by the Niger Council of Five to advise on expenditures. 1. Upgrade airbases (Will take border bases and beef them up) 2. Install Radars (Will get coverage of the border, probably won't be modern and awesome) 3. SAMs on the border (Middle of the road, shorter range, but some striking ability) 4. Invest in civilian/industrial infrastructure to increase earnings. (We'll see a larger potential payout down the road) Pick one!
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May 12, 2020 01:31
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Goddamn am I happy to see a reference to those dumbasses. I can't believe someone no poo poo tried to play Jagged Alliance IRL.
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May 12, 2020 01:44
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Probably go for the radar
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May 12, 2020 02:11
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I've played Rule the Waves, you always build infrastructure
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May 12, 2020 02:22
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I'm honestly not sure what to get, except that I know I don't want to beef up our airbases, unless that means building new airbases which is the biggest problem. Likely radar or infrastructure but SAMs would be interesting too, we've never operated under a proper air defense system before. I think Radar unless I change my mind.
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May 12, 2020 02:29
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quote:Silvercorp  Radar should be able to alleviate our lack of AEW, somewhat.
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May 12, 2020 02:47
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So in terms of recon asset that aren't useless, my list isn't complete, notably the only helicopters I've gone over are Russian, but here's what I've got: 1. SR-71 or U-2. These are super-high-powered recon assets that can see from miles away. Even the 1960s U-2s will outperform any other asset in this list. It's like having your own portable satellite. Russian Team players from Kuril Clash will know what I mean. RC-135A (cold war db so can't be used in HG) and the laser 747 is similar tier. 2. Reaper with Gorgon Stare. We've seen how good this is. 3a. F-16 with the Condor2 pod. These are 20x zoom, 45nm and should be about half as good as the Gorgon Stare with it's 100nm range. 3b. F-14 Tomcat past 2002, these have an upgraded TARPS-DI sensor pod which has a 20x zoom, 20nm recon camera. Similarly but less modern, recon Viggens have a 10x zoom, 20nm recon camera. 4a. Modern Russian Attack Helicopter, the Ka-50/Ka-52 or Mi-28. These are shorter ranged recon but have a feature called Target Search which means they find things a lot faster than 90% of the recon planes, pods and UAVs. 4b. Older Russian Attack Helicopter, the Mi-24/Mi-35. These have 2nd generation Target Search. 4c. Ancient Russian Hind, the Mi-25 Hind D for example. These have 1st generation Target Search. 5. On-the-ground assets I feel are about equal to 5nm 10-20x zoom cameras, like the Super Hornet's, Phantom, and Tornado GR.1A, with the caveat that it's easier to put up a recon flight in pre-op. There are a large number of these available, but they have to overfly what you're looking for. 6. (garbage tier) Any other recon asset with a Surveillance camera/IR like the Patrollers we already have. The Sperwer, Gray Eagles, Predators, and most chinese drones fit in this category, as do most recon pods. Most of these recon assets either have low detection zoom, low range, lack search, or most of the time, all of the above. The MQ-8C Fire-X might be the best garbage here as it has a 4x zoom, 60nm IR sensor. If you can't find something good here just go for quantity and disposability. Most of this as not yet been verified in-game but is just based on my understanding of what's performed for me in the past. The key features are: 1. Detection Zoom (as opposed to classification zoom, which is useful but not super). Detection zoom is what made the Gorgon Stare overpowered. 2. Range beyond 30nm. Higher max range improves detection at a lower range than the max. 3. The Target Search feature, which is kind of hard to determine if an asset has or not, but greatly improves the ability of a system to find something within its range in a reasonable time. In terms of what we can actually pick up I think we can find some more modern Hinds. Certainly I'll give more credibility to them in future purchasing rounds. e: this also ironically means I should have voted for 2 Guys and a Hind e2: edited with power crystal's list of neat assets Additionally, some testing seems to indicate that part of what made our A2A so reliable during the Gripen era (other than our top-tier AEW, and our god-tier missile) was the high-tier FLIR on the Gripen which provided a tracking feature once the aircraft was found once on radar. Good FLIR would be extremely helpful as our radar right now is less reliable and dropping contacts can gently caress over our A2A missile tracking. TheDemon fucked around with this message at 05:51 on May 12, 2020 |
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May 12, 2020 02:55
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We should get an SR-71. Just start every mission by launching from Gjader and screaming over the AO, scraping the stratosphere at six million miles an hour. Probably not much good for actual target acquisition as the battle goes on, but it will at least tell us what's what and where to start looking.
Radio Free Kobold fucked around with this message at 03:01 on May 12, 2020 |
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May 12, 2020 02:59
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I really want a U-2. It's more realistic to find them in some bargain scrapyard than an SR-71 and they're still a really cool toy. Barring that maybe we can find some auxiliary recon assets that we don't control, which might occasionally have a U-2 as a option but usually has some lower-tier stuff. Realistically speaking having a SR-71 or U-2 at our beck and call would break the game the same way the Gorgon Stare did, but having one that's very occasionally available, or unreliable in some way, while having some lower-tier assets of our own would be more balanced. TheDemon fucked around with this message at 03:18 on May 12, 2020 |
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May 12, 2020 03:03
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Voting SAMs but I'd be perfectly happy with radars. For detection zoom, there's also the RC-135 and AL-1A (which we can probably safely say we're never going to get either of) at 80x (!) visual. Or less absurdly some Viggens (ex #2857) at 10x, Tornadoes GR.1A (ex #3185) at 10x with 20x IR and Phantoms (ex #1440) at 10x + 10x IR. As much as I'd love a U2 any of those might be a more realistic acquisition. Those SR-71s are 20x visual and 40x IR. No other aircraft or pod can touch the 40x on IR. For sensor pods, there's a bunch of Superhornets with AN/ASD-12s (ex #342) which are 20x/30x, a bunch of F-16s (ex #502) with Condor2 at 20x with no IR, and an utterly ridiculous list of 10x visual detection zoom sensors mounted by every aircraft made this side of ~1990. For those playing along at home, the Gorgon Stare was 20x visual and 20x IR.
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May 12, 2020 03:24
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Radar. With dedicated opposition, we're liable to see some people sneaking across the border to gently caress with our staging areas. Lets take a lesson from the British here.TheDemon posted:I really want a U-2. It's more realistic to find them in some bargain scrapyard than an SR-71 and they're still a really cool toy. Barring that maybe we can find some auxiliary recon assets that we don't control, which might occasionally have a U-2 as a option but usually has some lower-tier stuff. Also an SR-71 would be a goddamn hangar queen. It would probably be easier to subcontract a U-2. Personally, I love my rotary wing aircraft, so Ka-52s would be right up my alley.
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May 12, 2020 03:27
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I like the aesthetic of having to escort some lumbering recon asset on a tour of the area before we begin the usual bomb-tossing fiesta.
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May 12, 2020 03:51
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As someone who has never dealt with any actual military equipment or played any of these games, can I just ask how in the hell a pilot or recon person is supposed to spot an individual person from 20,000 feet up using a 30x zoom camera in real time? I can sort of see if you're taking pictures in a flyover in 1962 and have a team of 100 analysts pouring over your U-2 photographs, how you spot things, but without some sort of computer assistance finding something while flying seems like an absurd proposition.
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May 12, 2020 03:54
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There's no way we can get a U2. You need to breathe oxygen for an hour before flying one of those, you need a second U2 pilot in a chase car just to land it. But if our new French friends were to find a Gorgon Stare or two that happened to fall off the back of a CIA truck somewhere, that would be nice.
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May 12, 2020 04:01
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Arcturas posted:As someone who has never dealt with any actual military equipment or played any of these games, can I just ask how in the hell a pilot or recon person is supposed to spot an individual person from 20,000 feet up using a 30x zoom camera in real time? I can sort of see if you're taking pictures in a flyover in 1962 and have a team of 100 analysts pouring over your U-2 photographs, how you spot things, but without some sort of computer assistance finding something while flying seems like an absurd proposition. You're absolutely right. CMO and CMANO are very unrealistic in this aspect, they basically presume that the pilot or computer can identify everything and report it immediately. This might be more realistic with modern recon assets but 1990s and 1980s or older big no. That said mission planning means you can simulate this in some ways, for example require the recon flight to be earlier then run the mission separately, or 3rd side units.
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May 12, 2020 04:17
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Infrastructure. Goodwill with the locals AND an increase in pay? Sign me up.
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May 12, 2020 05:01
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power crystals posted:Voting SAMs but I'd be perfectly happy with radars. I'm not a huge fan of the 5nm cameras, like the Super Hornets, Phantoms, and Tornados. They will indeed do the job but tracking down air defenses is the main reason we need these and it's a big no wandering into a Buk or something, plus if they act the way I intuit they won't be fully effective within all 5nm of their range. The Condor2 looks busted though, like budget Gorgon Stare, if the 45nm range I'm reading is accurate. The Viggen like the Tomcat is pretty cool. The loving satellite camera on the RC-135 looks so stupid. I'm going to go load cmo and see wtf it does... e: Oh, it's a camera to find ballistic missiles and satellites. Cool. TheDemon fucked around with this message at 05:22 on May 12, 2020 |
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May 12, 2020 05:10
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HereticMIND posted:Infrastructure. Goodwill with the locals AND an increase in pay? Sign me up. But if any of the infrastructures can be beefed up to the point of being useable as runways all the better! It probably won't be more than a few small stretches of a few roadways, but the more the merrier.
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May 12, 2020 05:23
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What about hiring some more ground assets? If we can get some recon troops in long range Humvee to go out into the AO before operations and provide recon from the ground for every mission could that help us? I know we have Zebba but if we can get some recon assets with actual military experience and training that may help us locate threats and targets that are hidden or had to spot from the air.
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May 12, 2020 10:46
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TheDemon posted:So in terms of recon asset that aren't useless, my list isn't complete, notably the only helicopters I've gone over are Russian, but here's what I've got: The Gorgon Stare is so next level I almost have to discard it. It will find ground targets like trucks, tanks and SAM's, consistently, at 38-40nm. It'll detect ground units at 15nm. With targets in woodland terrain types the detection level is cut in half. In built up terrain (cities) it was cut in half once again. The Patroller for comparison could not find anything in urban areas regardless of loadout and nothing in mixed forest until it was at 2nm range. A Mirage F1CR with SLAR did well, 20-30nm, but detected nothing in urban environments. SR-71 performance is comparable to Gorgon Stare. U-2 is about 15nm detection range (at 85k ft) I think we'll see less "hunt this" and more "there's something near here, go kill it" missions. Finding stuff is hard.
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May 12, 2020 13:48
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Can't we just beef up HUMINT to account for the fact that we now know that there's something near there, go kill it? I am here for Zebbas 2 through 19
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May 12, 2020 13:56
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Can't we just beef up HUMINT to account for the fact that we now know that there's something near there, go kill it? I am here for Zebbas 2 through 19 Zebba's Caravaneers might get some professional assistance because yah, HUMINT makes up for some of the detection deficiencies.
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May 12, 2020 14:27
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TheDemon posted:I'm not a huge fan of the 5nm cameras, like the Super Hornets, Phantoms, and Tornados. They will indeed do the job but tracking down air defenses is the main reason we need these and it's a big no wandering into a Buk or something, plus if they act the way I intuit they won't be fully effective within all 5nm of their range. The Condor2 looks busted though, like budget Gorgon Stare, if the 45nm range I'm reading is accurate. The Viggen like the Tomcat is pretty cool. For giggles, sorting by "(Visual Detection + IR Detection) * Max Range" and picking out anything weird:
Those Viggens are probably the best match thematically though I will never turn down an F-14. Arcturas posted:As someone who has never dealt with any actual military equipment or played any of these games, can I just ask how in the hell a pilot or recon person is supposed to spot an individual person from 20,000 feet up using a 30x zoom camera in real time? I can sort of see if you're taking pictures in a flyover in 1962 and have a team of 100 analysts pouring over your U-2 photographs, how you spot things, but without some sort of computer assistance finding something while flying seems like an absurd proposition. I have to assume that the more modern stuff (especially for the Gorgon Stare) is being sent back to a room full of analysts watching the feed and telling the pilot to focus on a given area. Also, usually you're looking for a specific thing that you already know the existence of or you're monitoring a specific site; "find any and every vehicle in this forest" is not really a task you use aircraft recon for. And U-2s have a listed service ceiling of 80,000 feet. 20,000 is nothing 
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May 12, 2020 15:09
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Or we could do it with rocket artillery.. https://twitter.com/TheDEWLine/status/1259584360275116033?s=20
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May 12, 2020 16:05
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Good god. I've definitely read about this before, but that just somehow feels utterly slimy, even by the dirty standards of modern war.
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May 12, 2020 23:08
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Infrastructure Getting a bigger payout means more planes that can be shot down, weirder things dredged up from the database we can go wild with, and weirdness we can find to convince to be brought in. Also let's help the locals, since we're the yokels. Could we use a hot air balloon? In the American Civil War the Union Army would float them up high and have a telegraph cable in it and used it for artillery spotting. During the Napoleonic Wars I believe the.. Hungarians tried to shoot down French observation balloons with cannons, being the first anti aircraft batteries used.
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May 13, 2020 09:36
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wedgekree posted:Could we use a hot air balloon? That's a good thought! Unfortunately the only lighter-than-air craft I could find in CMANO-DB are a couple of tethered aerostats with very good radar but no mobility. Reconplane talk: setting aside the really specialized stuff like the U-2, it has occurred to me that there are two other sources of decent aerial sensors. One is old recce-fighters, and the other is maritime patrol aircraft. (I don't really like the idea of helicopter gunships on surveillance duty--they're too low-flying, short-legged, and slow.) For the recce-fighter category, I'm looking around the various makes and marks of F-4 (I saw the talk about F-16s and Tornado GR.4s, and I'm looking at a somewhat older category of plane with an eye towards using it as a dedicated recon asset). The RF-4 series don't look too promising, unfortunately; their cameras seem to be top out at 5nm. The comedy option of the Iranian 2015 Phantom doesn't look suitable because its FLIR setup is for targeting only, not search. Somewhat more representative of a camera option might be the 1988 USAF F-4E with Pave Spike. Between the TISEO built-in camera (which is, admittedly, intended for air-to-air use) and the Pave Spike pod, we might be getting somewhere. (Another possibility is the F-14 series with its TCS camera system, although weirdly enough CMANO-DB doesn't seem to think that Iranian Tomcats have them, although I would swear that they did. The AN/AXX-1 looks like a very powerful sensor system and if it can be persuaded to look at the ground...mind you, I'd be perfectly okay with "demil'd" F-14s that can only fire ancient-rear end Sparrow-Es and Sidewinders and are only good as a flying camera platform.) Now, as fun as it would be to overfly targets with recon Phantoms, I think a better, persistent option would be to look at MPAs. They generally have cameras meant to pick out periscopes and small boats, and I recall the US had good results using them as surveillance assets overland. We are rather spoiled for choice here, with the CN-235 MPA variant or the Falcon 20G MPA variant being on the smaller side of things. Word of warning, though--these craft are very fragile. If we can't ensure air superiority for persistent periods, we risk losing one of these to a hit-and-run fighter. That's one advantage the recon Phantoms have, in that they could run or maybe even fight back. bibliosabreur fucked around with this message at 15:51 on May 13, 2020 |
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May 13, 2020 12:48
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Reconchat. This is the F-4 from above. First pass at 36,000 ft gave zero detections. 2nd pass at 12,000 ft detected a T-90 platoon t 3nm and BUK at 3.4 nm. If it did not get within 3.6nm it couldn't detect poo poo. Dropping to 2,000 ft brought the average up a hair to 4nm. The Coast Guard MPA gave similar results. Our UAV, the Patroller, gives about the same performance. Our friend the Gorgon Stare. 40 nm average detection distance. It would be nice to find something between the two, but given where we're at I think we'll adjust mission requirements. It makes it much more challenging for you guys to work a "Find then kill" instead of "identify and kill".
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May 13, 2020 18:06
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Yooper posted:Reconchat. The recon Viggen, TARPS-DI Tomcat, and Condor2 F-16 from my post should be in the "in between" category.
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May 13, 2020 19:18
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TheDemon posted:The recon Viggen, TARPS-DI Tomcat, and Condor2 F-16 from my post should be in the "in between" category. Recon Viggen gives us 4nm at 12,000 ft. Zero detection at 36,000 ft. Condor2 is 5nm at 12,000 ft, zero at 36,000 ft. TARPS is 2 nm at 12,000 ft, zero detection at higher altitudes. Gorgon Stare, according to DARPA, should have a functional range of 10km square. I'm trying to get some more info as to why CMO thinks it should look out 40nm.
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May 13, 2020 20:06
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That, uh, certainly puts the Gorgon Stare into proper perspective. Especially since blundering around with a recon plane at 12000ft is just asking to be murdered by IR SHORAD.  I think it's official, then. Unless someone finds some hilariously powerful recon asset that's comparable to the SR-71 or the Reaper/Gorgon Stare that we can actually buy, we are out of the search-and-destroy business. Someone's got to be able to find things for us and cue us toward them.
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May 13, 2020 21:18
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Yooper posted:Recon Viggen gives us 4nm at 12,000 ft. Zero detection at 36,000 ft. Condor2 is 5nm at 12,000 ft, zero at 36,000 ft. TARPS is 2 nm at 12,000 ft, zero detection at higher altitudes. 10km square is probably for its persistent surveillance function, which is what GS is really meant for. For just finding out if something is there, you could likely push it considerably further.
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May 13, 2020 22:01
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wiegieman posted:
Precisely. The functional range of 10km square is for the panopticon use, that is, it can simultaneously view an area 10km square on the ground, and record and store video everything that happens in that area for later use. If you instead zoom out into the distance, the same sensor that can do that can look rather far out.
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May 13, 2020 23:19
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These tests have been with stationary targets, right? I suspect we should get somewhat better results if the targets were moving and we had something with SLAR or IR line scanners, which are designed to pick up movement. Of course, such craft can't actually identify the targets, so it's a half-measure at best.
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May 14, 2020 16:43
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The Triumvirate is unhappy. ORMEC has stepped in to a situation that the Nigerian Trio felt was under control. This is good for our client as it creates instability in the organization without doing anything crazy. But they want to bring the focus back on Nigeria and away from the ORMEC alliance.  But this hasn't kept the Nigerian Corporate Security group from purchasing some BUK's and sticking them on the border with Niger. We need these to go somewhere else. Our little venture to the North and the added presence of HAMMER has the Triumvirate feeling nice and safe.  Our client wants us to run a harassment op and also an anti-shipping op. Except the goal is to clear out a path for the HMS Liquid Asset to deploy something special... Blow up dolls. Blow up dolls that are anatomically correct and parodies of the Triumvirate. Each of these dolls has a small CO2 cartridge that will inflate the doll after an hour in the ocean. Based on the tides and current thousands of blow up dolls will wash ashore on the most popular beaches in Nigeria. In order to do it we will need to keep the air space clear of ASW assets and also remove some Nigerian naval forces. Just knocking them out in a shorter op should be enough. More details are to follow.  Our recent issues have brought out a PMC with questionable morales but immense capacity. News Corp. They are running a few U-2's along with MQ-9's sporting everyones' favorite asset... the Gorgon Stare. They will, for a fee, run recon. (Props to Sabre and Orcbuster for this one) What is the fee? We will pay a pair of either AIM-120C's or KH-31's for each hour on station. 6 hours on station could cost a dozen AIM-120C's. Once the mission map is up we'll go into planning and voting.
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May 15, 2020 01:46
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Yes, pay the fee, whatever the fee if we can afford it
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May 15, 2020 02:12
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Contrary to my discord ranting, I definitely want to see a U-2 on the field even if it is owned by some real scummy media types. Buy the spyplane
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May 15, 2020 13:54
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I thought this was going to be a thing that each mission planner could opt into rather than a vote beforehand. Am I misunderstanding?
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May 15, 2020 14:03
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| # ? May 5, 2024 10:13 |
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Is Murdoch dead in this timeline? I'll pay NewsCorp's blood money, but I need to know Murdoch is burning in hell.
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May 15, 2020 14:03
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