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Rhyno posted:Okay this is where it gets stupid. as someone who is incredibly hyped for the (at this point) minute possibility of new Miracleman, this would be the funniest loving thing in the entire world. Marvel got their big comic publisher dick out and moved heaven and earth to figure this poo poo out on behalf of Gaiman, and no amount of Avengers movie money and hot-shot Disney lawyers can fix the colossal, mind-shattering fuckup that is ownership of a 30 year old comic book based off of a 60 year old Captain Marvel ripoff. Seriously I remember reading all about the release and the legal battle and when Marvel finally announced their purchasing of the rights, and especially in 2013 when they started releasing the good stuff, I thought 'man in 10 years when there's enough distance this will make a great movie or something, now that the story is over". the story is never over, there will never be enough distance. at this point I half expect Marvel to wheel out Mick Anglo's corpse and use it like a ventriloquist puppet in court to prove their case Schneider Heim posted:Comic licensing issues are always weird :o You should still read it if you can find it. I read it through means before Marvel even got their hands on it and quite liked it, if you're an Alan Moore fan it's definitely part of his canon that deserves to be remembered alongside stuff like Watchmen, V for Vendetta, From Hell, etc. Alan Moore's Miracleman is a complete story. The Gaiman stuff is also worth reading, even if it's incredibly obviously incomplete. I secretly wonder if, since it's been so loving long since he last wrote it, if Gaiman could genuinely finish Miracleman in a way that would be satisfying to anyone. He's a very different guy now, and while he's a great writer, it's probably pretty hard to come back to something after that long a break. Or worse, he could decide that he needs to make it a treatise on The Trump Era like every other piece of art in 2017. Even the greatest of writers would make that hacky as gently caress.
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Apr 10, 2017 08:34
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One person who is fairly well connected with Marvel staffers has said that nobody at Disney gives a poo poo about MM, they see no viability in the character outside comics so the Disney legal team has no incentive to do anything. This is all on Marvel's comic division to sort out.
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Apr 10, 2017 08:39
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Rhyno posted:One person who is fairly well connected with Marvel staffers has said that nobody at Disney gives a poo poo about MM, they see no viability in the character outside comics so the Disney legal team has no incentive to do anything. This is all on Marvel's comic division to sort out. if this ends with anything other than a to-the-death knife fight between Gaiman and McFarlane to once and for all resolve all their issues, I'll be a bit disappointed. Because deep down, I know that if anyone is actually pressing this issue legally, it's Todd McFarlane. I don't blame Disney one bit though; Miracleman would make a poo poo movie, and I don't even think "well it would be a great HBO miniseries" is true in this case. It's a comics thing through and through.
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Apr 10, 2017 08:57
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Rhyno posted:Other posters have also speculated that the fan reaction was lukewarm. For 20 years people have been talking about how amazing MM is, calling it one of the best comic books ever but when it was finally available to read legally again all these people who bought into the hype were massively dissappointed. Also the art in the middle issues of the Moore run is total rear end.
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Apr 10, 2017 09:54
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Rhyno posted:One person who is fairly well connected with Marvel staffers has said that nobody at Disney gives a poo poo about MM, they see no viability in the character outside comics so the Disney legal team has no incentive to do anything. This is all on Marvel's comic division to sort out. My assumption has been that DC has always done a much better job at developing a canon for itself. It's the one with stuff like Watchmen, Sandman, Preacher, Kingdom Come, The Killing Joke, Y: The Last Man that are--fairly or not--considered these prestige titles that you've consistently been able to find on a bookstore's shelf for the last twenty years and indefinitely in the future. Marvel on the other hand doesn't really seem to have any of that. Even something like Truth which was this highly acclaimed and incredibly accessible work is out of print. There's a few things like Alias, Runaways, Marvels, and Born Again, but they don't really seem to stack against DC and Vertigo. So I guess my question is two things: Is my assumption correct? From your experience, does Marvel give a poo poo about having something similar?
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Apr 10, 2017 12:38
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Timeless Appeal posted:I have a question towards this. Marvel's tried having a secondary line in the past, but it hasn't generally worked out for them. Their greatest success on that level was probably the MAX line, since that was the home of Alias and Ennis' legendary Punisher run. Otherwise, in terms of publishing books that aren't straight Marvel comics, that's not really their thing.
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Apr 10, 2017 17:48
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Yeah, every time Marvel's launched a sub line it hasn't lasted very long. Their biggest success wasn't Max though, it was the Epic line. DC's no better though, other than Vertigo none of their sub lines have had real legs. Helix didn't last long at all and let's face it, Young Animal isn't going to be around in 5 years.
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Apr 10, 2017 17:54
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I read the first issue of that new Doom Patrol. It was really bad. Morrison's Doom Patrol was weird, but it was weird because it was overloaded with Morrison's crazy brain and magic. The new Doom Patrol was weird just for the sake of weird.
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Apr 10, 2017 17:57
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That is a really confusing statement.
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Apr 10, 2017 18:09
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The thing that I find interesting about the Vertigo line (as well as a few other titles outside of DC comics proper) is that they seem to attract a different market and therefore do well at book stores (at least in the past when book stores were a thing). The Vertigo stuff, and pre Vertigo stuff like Watchmen and the likes interested the more "mature" reader, that is an older crowd than the usual teenager reading comics in the 90's, so those older readers would be able to pick up those books in book stores and such. I don't think Marvel has really tried this as they try to focus almost exclusively on their superhero stuff (even with stuff like the Max line) so DC really tapped into a well with their Vertigo line that Marvel just didn't seem interested in following with.
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Apr 10, 2017 18:12
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Guy Goodbody posted:I read the first issue of that new Doom Patrol. It was really bad. Morrison's Doom Patrol was weird, but it was weird because it was overloaded with Morrison's crazy brain and magic. The new Doom Patrol was weird just for the sake of weird. I would say a lot of Morrison's Doom Patrol was just weird for the sake of being weird, and I even liked most of it.
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Apr 10, 2017 18:22
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Marvel's been trying to get their own Vertigo going numerous times and it's never really worked out. There's supposedly a whole series of mature readers original graphic novels Marvel commissioned that are sitting in a drawer somewhere and the current publishing initiative has no use for them.
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Apr 10, 2017 18:29
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joehonkie posted:I would say a lot of Morrison's Doom Patrol was just weird for the sake of being weird, and I even liked most of it. I think the distinction is that it's weirdness came from somewhere. The storyline about Albert Hoffman's bicycle was part of Morrison's psychedelic magic theories, Flex Mentallo was a representation of the simple, strange masculinity from golden age comics. The weirdness in Morrison's Doom Patrol came from genuinely weird ideas. And it was all pinned down by the central concept of a group of people whose superpowers were disabilities. Or vice versa. But the new Doom Patrol was just, hey the Chief is playing a synthesizer in the forest and a singing telegram girl just shot somebody, is so crazy.
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Apr 10, 2017 18:36
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I don't think Timeless Appeal post was about secondary lines, they meant that DC has iconic, stand alone titles that even the minor fans know, are always available to purchase in any decent LCS and are somewhat of a stepping stone to getting into their main titles while Marvel doesn't seem to have the same traditional issues.
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Apr 10, 2017 18:49
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DC has those huge iconic stories like Watchmen, Kingdom Come, V For Vendetta, the Death of Superman etc. It also never helped that Marvel's TPB offerings were garbage for years and years.
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Apr 10, 2017 19:01
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I think you have a point there about DC having these kind of lasting classics that Marvel doesn't seem to produce, and I wonder if the main driver is that these are stories that have a beginning, middle, and end as opposed to the endless churn of serial storytelling. If pressed I can only really think of individual runs (e.g. Kravens last hunt) or OGNs that require some context from the mainline issues (e.g. God loves man kills) for Marvel.
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Apr 10, 2017 19:12
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Marvel has a few of those these days, Old Man Logan has been a trade best seller for us since the collected edition dropped. Civil War is another one that sells great for us.
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Apr 10, 2017 19:14
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DC loses the rights to Watchmen if it ever goes out of print, so they had that early lesson in keeping certain TPBs on store shelves forever.
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Apr 10, 2017 19:17
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CapnAndy posted:DC loses the rights to Watchmen if it ever goes out of print, so they had that early lesson in keeping certain TPBs on store shelves forever. True but there isn't a single other DC series where that applies. It's not like Alex Ross and Mark Waid get the rights to Kingdom Come if it ever stays out of print.
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Apr 10, 2017 19:19
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I think if you compare dc (minus vertigo) to marvel, they don't have all that many more classic trades. It's really Vertigo and their approach to storytelling that made the difference. As others have said, Marvel had never had a Vertigo-esque line that strayed any real distance from superhero
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Apr 10, 2017 19:20
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Soonmot posted:I think if you compare dc (minus vertigo) to marvel, they don't have all that many more classic trades. It's really Vertigo and their approach to storytelling that made the difference. As others have said, Marvel had never had a Vertigo-esque line that strayed any real distance from superhero Epic.
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Apr 10, 2017 19:22
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Isn't the Quran part of the marvel universe now? That seems quite popular.
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Apr 10, 2017 19:26
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CapnAndy posted:DC loses the rights to Watchmen if it ever goes out of print, so they had that early lesson in keeping certain TPBs on store shelves forever. To be fair I don't think DC nor Moore thought that Watchmen would be so popular that it would stay in print forever. If people stopped buying it it would probably go out of print. As far as non-Vertigo DC mainstays there is Dark Knight Returns and Kingdom Come that come to mind. Some others probably include stuff like All Star Superman, Batman: Year One, Killing Joke, Planetary, Batman: Black and White, the Loeb/Sale Batman stuff, Batman: Black Mirror, Batman and Superman: Earth 1 GN.
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Apr 10, 2017 19:26
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Marvel has plenty of books that will always be available and are considered classics. They're just not on that iconic level of DKR or Watchmen. the Death of Jean Dewolf and Kraven's Last Hunt are wonderful classic Spider-man stories. Born Again and the Man Without Fear are the virtual DNA of the character of Daredevil.
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Apr 10, 2017 19:30
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I'd say Marvel banks more on prestige runs. Walt Simonson's Thor, Jim Starlin's Warlock, Frank Miller's Daredevil, etc. The majority of Marvel's "bookstore graphic novel" type stuff that you could hand someone with no context usually spring out of those. Like Born Again, or Elektra Assassin. I know plenty of people who've read those two, deeply enjoyed them and don't give a poo poo about monthly superhero antics. In fact from my experience most people who like comics and say they don't like superheroes who aren't Comic Journal types really mean they don't like or want to follow monthly superhero books.Rhyno posted:Epic. Yeah, but I don't see Marvel putting out the Last American or Light and Darkness War trades for the bookstore market. In fact most of the notable Epic titles that have been reprinted like Dreadstar or Moonshadow have been through other publishers because Epic's stuff was full-on creator owned. But yes I'd say Epic qualifies as being similar to "Vertigo and their approach to storytelling". It was definitely part of the 80s Mature Readers Revolution and it's a shame that it's basically been forgotten. It was one of the better things Jim Shooter set in motion. Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Apr 10, 2017 |
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Apr 10, 2017 19:31
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Marvel was going to do a full Epic revival but the evolved into Trouble. Ugh.
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Apr 10, 2017 19:35
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Rhyno posted:Marvel was going to do a full Epic revival but the evolved into Trouble. Yeah, and it was telling that their lead to reviving their big creator owned mature readers line was a creepy comic about Aunt May's sex life. Since they can't really do anything non-superhero these days they should have done a Shadowline revival. In fact I'd kind of like to see that for real. But it would probably end up with Doctor Zero causing Civil War III.
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Apr 10, 2017 19:45
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Rhyno posted:Marvel was going to do a full Epic revival but the evolved into Trouble. loving lol. Are any of their Epic stuff on Unlimited, or is it all creator owned?
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Apr 10, 2017 19:47
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Man, I keep mistaking Epic for Icon.
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Apr 10, 2017 19:49
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Skwirl posted:loving lol. I'd assume none of it is on Unlimited since 99% of it has been reprinted by other companies.
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Apr 10, 2017 19:50
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Skwirl posted:loving lol. The vast majority of it was creator owned, and not in the company exclusive Vertigo way. Also Unlimited has no mature reader's content, so I don't think the few Epic books that were not creator owned and have been folded into other lines like Elektra Assassin or Elektra Lives Again would be on Unlimited.
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Apr 10, 2017 19:51
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Wasn't there a bunch of talk about how Marvel was going to revive the Ultraverse at some point in the past 15 years?
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Apr 10, 2017 19:56
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Wheat Loaf posted:Wasn't there a bunch of talk about how Marvel was going to revive the Ultraverse at some point in the past 15 years? There's a ton of fans wanting it but Marvel's statement has never changed from the "No, it's never gonna happen."
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Apr 10, 2017 19:57
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The Gerard Jones Situation sure isn't going to speed things along on that front.
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Apr 10, 2017 20:20
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redbackground posted:The Gerard Jones Situation sure isn't going to speed things along on that front. I doubt that even registered on the radar. They need to get every Malibu creator to sign off on a deal where they basically get fuckall in royalties. Nobody's gonna sign on for that.
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Apr 10, 2017 20:22
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Rhyno posted:I doubt that even registered on the radar. They need to get every Malibu creator to sign off on a deal where they basically get fuckall in royalties. Nobody's gonna sign on for that. Oh, I know. An Ultraverse revival was never in the cards.
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Apr 10, 2017 20:25
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Was it a Malibu comic that had the gimmick of having a cover where the guy had a bullet wound in his chest and they shot the comic with a pistol through it?
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Apr 10, 2017 20:34
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Rhyno posted:I doubt that even registered on the radar. They need to get every Malibu creator to sign off on a deal where they basically get fuckall in royalties. Nobody's gonna sign on for that. That reminds me of when Peter Laird and some loving company I forget were bringing Mirage's original TMNT back in the early 2000s, and Laird was so desperate to make it happen that he personally tried to get all the giant pile of original contributors to TMNT that weren't Eastman to agree to give up all their royalties to everything they created in the TMNT universe for basically a pack of Juicy Fruits, and then when most of them told him to get hosed, he was like "Ok all that poo poo they wrote isn't canon anymore, TMNT IS FULLY BACK BABY!"
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Apr 10, 2017 20:35
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Epic published a lot of creator-owned stuff before trades/bookstore sales were really a thing, and then the rights all reverted to the creators, and got reprinted in a bunch of other places. Vertigo is kind of going through the same thing right now, as a number of creators are getting the publishing rights back and publshing old Vertigo titles elsewhere. From a quick glance this has already happened for all of Garth Ennis's books that fell out of print, Kyle Baker, Ron WImberly (Prince of Cats), Sarah Glidden (How to Understand Israel in Sixty Days or Less), Joe Kelly (Bang Tango), Jamie Delano (Outlaw Nation), JM DeMatteis (Brooklyn Dreams), Ed Brubaker/Sean Phillips got the rights back to Scene of the Crime, at which point Vertigo put out a trade of the long-out-of-print Deadenders primarily to block Brubaker/etc. from getting the rights back to that, too.
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Apr 10, 2017 20:35
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Wheat Loaf posted:Was it a Malibu comic that had the gimmick of having a cover where the guy had a bullet wound in his chest and they shot the comic with a pistol through it? I can't decide if that's more or less edgy than Kiss mixing their blood into the ink of their comic line.
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Apr 10, 2017 20:36
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