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Also, I hope they don't have a season 2. I know they left a couple huge plot threads open but I think that's totally in keeping with the theme of the show. Just because Clay made it through the tapes doesn't mean that Tyler isn't being bullied anymore (good job helping out with that Clay, you dickhead). Also fits with Porter's insistence that you can't "love someone back to life" with Alex. Horrible poo poo happens, despite the efforts of plucky teenagers.
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Apr 4, 2017 23:00
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That's where I'm at with it. Part of the reason I appreciate the show—and this is, I guess, contingent in part upon them not doing another season—is almost nothing is as simple as it appears. Almost every character has some layer underneath the face they put on (with the exception of Tony, who I liked quite a bit but is a straight up magical negro trope), the efforts to "make things right" may or may not be successful (and are in numerous cases extremely misguided or lead to more damage), and Hannah herself isn't some virtuous damsel who just got dealt a lovely hand, she's a flawed person who rightfully took some of the blame for what ultimately happened. That's kinda too-rare poo poo in a show meant for teenagers and young adults.
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Apr 4, 2017 23:41
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Hannah is going to be indirectly responsible for pushing Tyler over the edge to shoot up the school. Sure he was probably collecting guns and ammo already but the coordinated rock throwing campaign and Clay sending out his nude pic probably sealed the deal. She's going to get everyone killed. WHOOPS
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Apr 5, 2017 01:26
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The soundtrack is amazing. In fact, looking back on it, I think that was one of the show's biggest strengths. It beautifully merged 80s pop anthems with modern day ones, it felt like an homage to teen drama media through the ages. And Take Me Back to the Night We Met over the dance sequences was such an insanely good choice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtlgYxa6BMU
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Apr 5, 2017 02:28
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The whole series reminded me about the general atmosphere of It Follows. In a good way.
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Apr 5, 2017 03:13
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I'm on tape six side a. When i read in this thread that others were having a hard time marathoning it I didn't understand - now I do. I can't help but feel one of the most impressive parts of this show (apart from the acting, nuanced characterization etc) is the use of repeated locations. The coffee cafe, the school hall. The layers of occurrences is something you feel every time they are revisited. for example, the coffee shop goes from cool hang out warm fuzzy 'office' to where clay's old friend would have felt pangs of hurt every time he visited with another girl. I freaking love this show. Some of the dialog is a little cardboard around the edges but apart from that, fine form Netflix! Way to demonstrate a teen suicide drama without being hokey or ham fisted.
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Apr 5, 2017 10:05
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PantsBandit posted:The soundtrack is amazing. In fact, looking back on it, I think that was one of the show's biggest strengths. It beautifully merged 80s pop anthems with modern day ones, it felt like an homage to teen drama media through the ages. And Take Me Back to the Night We Met over the dance sequences was such an insanely good choice. I think there were maybe a few hours between when I finished she show and when I popped over to WhatSong so I could drop everything they used onto my general playlist in Spotify. It's a great selection of songs (especially as someone who probably loves the 80s a little too much).
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Apr 5, 2017 10:47
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Oh heck yes! I didn't even know hey hey, My My (Into the Black) was a thing until this show! It's incredible. Good work show.
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Apr 5, 2017 10:57
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As someone who actually was directly involved in a similar situation in my formative years I find some of the complaints levied at this show absolutely ridiculous. People can and will fall into depression for a myriad of reason's (seriously what is it with the no true scotsman bullshit) and yes popular people can and will get bullied too. Popularity is a precarious thing in any kind of school setting and not every bullying victim is a picturesque ugly duckling with no social life. Depression can make people internalize their despair, making it invisible to those around them while also putting them in the mindset that their problems are insignificant, irrational or unimportant to the people around them. I'm not even going to get into the distinction between depression and clinical depression and why the fact that a few of you are conflating the two is pissing me off. The show was good. It managed to tackle one of the most cliche-ridden and repeated teenage-story premises of all time and actually go somewhere meaningful and interesting with it.
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Apr 5, 2017 16:54
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My only complain is that they made Clay too much of a saint. His guilt was completely irrational.
Baudolino fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Apr 5, 2017 |
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Apr 5, 2017 20:01
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Ehhh. While a lot of the moments wherein he was lovely to Hannah were just the results of him being socially awkward or completely inept with girls, he had his moments. Nothing as malicious or outright horrendous as some of the others, but there are things he could have handled better. Even saying that, his experience isn't all that different from a lot of individuals close to someone who committed suicide. The extent of his guilt might be overblown, but: - He's right in saying that if anybody had actually bothered to support Hannah in the way she needed, she could still be alive—and he's a part of that; - The fact that in a number of ways he was closer to her than anybody else magnifies his guilt, because "How could I not know this was coming?"; and - He's a teenager. The ways in which he wronged Hannah were innocuous, but they still added to—or failed to take away from—the overall damage. He knows that. It's why we see so many shots of him reliving moments with her and cursing his own dipshittery. v-- Exactly. Toaster Beef fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Apr 5, 2017 |
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Apr 5, 2017 20:46
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Baudolino posted:My only complain is that they made Clay too much of a saint. His guilt was completely irrational. Survivor's guilt among friends and family is actually very common in cases of suicide. It's that lingering feeling that you should have seen the signs or that you could have done something different that triggers it.
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Apr 5, 2017 20:53
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Baudolino posted:My only complain is that they made Clay too much of a saint. His guilt was completely irrational. Everything surrounding a physically healthy teenage girl killing herself is gonna be irrational imo
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Apr 5, 2017 20:55
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Junkfist posted:What lack of a support system? I'm not seeing this. Junkfist posted:The show doesn't even explore that element of suicidal people having a wildly negative perception of themselves that's distorted, just got to the end holy poo poo the layers man. I was in for the ride about half way through e1 but I did NOT expect the characters to be that well crafted/real/flawed/deep. Seriously, when Hannah and her new friend go up to the 'cute nerdy' guy in the coffee shop and joke around asking him who he was checking out, I thought that was the level we were going to be working at. I did not expect to get so much from these kids. Ahh! I loved this show. It hurt to watch the last episode. -The actual suicide scene had me gripping my fists. But I stuck through it. It feels cheesy to type but I felt like I was 'doing it for Hannah'. I've never known a show to pull you so deep into an ensemble. -the scene in the second to last episode where everybody huddles at the coffee shop to discuss what to do about the tapes. Wow. That was well scripted. -the counsellor scene. -some of the party scenes were very well blocked. You had tiny split second moments that were recounted in other episodes/narratives. for example, clay whines/jokes about dodging the kids playing that card sucking game. in a later episode you see him briefly on the side of a couch going 'whoa hey' when they spill into him. -this show is going to be lodged in my memory for a long, long time. -I know this is the whole theme of the show but there are so, so, so many moments where two characters try to connect, vaguely get what the other is saying and then move on. 'you never know whats going on in somebody else's life'. -the rich kid, whose name i will not speak, can gently caress right off. he'd come on screen say something obscene and I'd pull the fingers at him. well acted. -was the cop dad from lost? i feel like he was jacob. very wise. sir. -three deaths. what carnage. -ok time to actually sleep at night. look after yourselves real people in the real world x Lampsacus fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Apr 6, 2017 |
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Apr 6, 2017 15:33
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Lampsacus posted:just got to the end My wife's a counselor (not a school counselor, but still) and spent the first minute or so of that scene nodding along. Apparently he was doing a pretty good job. Then things took a serious turn, and she spent the rest of that scene yelling at the screen because he was doing literally everything wrong. The level to which he failed was almost malicious.
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Apr 6, 2017 17:11
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"Hmm...ok well I'm glad you came to me with this Hannah but do ya think maybe ya wanted it?"
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Apr 6, 2017 18:05
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Toaster Beef posted:My wife's a counselor (not a school counselor, but still) and spent the first minute or so of that scene nodding along. Apparently he was doing a pretty good job. Then things took a serious turn, and she spent the rest of that scene yelling at the screen because he was doing literally everything wrong. The level to which he failed was almost malicious. They telegraphed really hard that he was going to be one of the tapes, and I thought it was going to be Something Awful, glad they didn't go there and just made it regular Real World Awful. Goddamn I was so mad at that fictional character.
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Apr 6, 2017 19:29
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Hmm that death scene. I worry that vurneable youths could be inspired by it. Yeah they showed the pain and indignity of it. But still. Do as Hannah did and it will kill you. What if a girl that has experienced some of what Hannah experienced sees this and now has a clear example of how they could end their pain?
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Apr 6, 2017 21:32
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I think to some extent that's a legitimate concern, but going down that path seems like a straight line toward "we can't discuss suicide in any complex way because it might encourage someone." Open, honest discussion of bullying, depression, and suicide is important because it makes people realize they aren't alone. I'd argue this show did a better job of it than most, because it showed exactly how painful and horrifying it is to actually slit your wrists. Most of the time, we just get a shot of someone drawing a bath—sometimes it's someone drawing a bath and then getting into it calmly, razor in hand—and then we just jump straight to the aftermath, or don't even show what the scene looks like afterward. It's quiet, elegant, and seemingly painless. Hannah's death is none of those things. She died horribly. Is there a risk of someone seeing that and deciding it's exactly what they want to do? I mean ... sure. You can't say there isn't. But I'd take this depiction over just about any other, because it dispels the notion of glamour.
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Apr 6, 2017 21:44
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Man I just finished this and I haven't had a show that just WRECKED me like this since Dear Zachary (which still keeps the crown because it's a documentary). It hit home for me on a lot of notes, having known a couple of people who killed themselves, one particular kid in high school was an acquaintance who ran away from home because his home life was terrible and he only had a few good friends. After we got the news he shot himself, the local school rear end in a top hat kept making suicide jokes about him to the one kid who was a genuine friend and was torn to pieces. Man. I think the (spoilers needed? Oh well)rape, while maybe not necessary, really brought everything together, and showed why Jessica's rape was such a big deal through the tapes. Only real criticism is what a few have mentioned here, it's not like she didn't know that Clay was an incredibly awkward teenager who had no clue how to talk to girls, and she did make it difficult for him to understand why she pushed him away. They really did circumvent a lot of stereotypes in the show too. Clay was the awkward teen, but he clearly didn't have self esteem issues and was proud of being who he was, and I dug that. Lots more to think of but man...wrecked.
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Apr 7, 2017 02:19
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I wasn't quite sure but was Bryce supposed to get the box after Clay and Clay decided to skip him?
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Apr 7, 2017 02:55
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Normy posted:I wasn't quite sure but was Bryce supposed to get the box after Clay and Clay decided to skip him? Yep. They were afraid of what he'd do with it.
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Apr 7, 2017 02:57
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Yeah I think that was kind of the point of him being #12. She knew the tapes wouldn't get past him - she was hoping the rest of the group would come forward and do something about it
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Apr 7, 2017 03:00
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Lampsacus posted:Same post too. Yes, the cop dad (Mark Pellegrino) was Jacob from Lost and the guy who plays Clay (Dylan Minnette) played Jack's son from the alternate timeline.
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Apr 7, 2017 16:39
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I just went through the show and enjoyed it quite a bit. But after reading some of the posts around here, I have to agree that there are some real issues I overlooked especially with regard to her mental state. Committing suicide is the epitome of an unhealthy decision and a human body actually feels a survival instinct which makes you doubt that decision. The only way that mental safe guard gets bypassed is if it's severely weakened by a mental imbalance. While her perception might have been a bit negative at the end (for example she exclaimed that Clay hated her when she talked to the counselor.) it never really felt like she was spiraling. By the end she made it sound like she carefully weighted all the pros and cons and made a rational, logical decision as a deterministic reaction to the given events. And I hate the sort of message that sends. If you ever feel suicidal, you're thoroughly broken and incapable of making decisions. It's not your fault and you must not feel guilty about it but at that point your brain is an active enemy to yourself and you need professional help. Maybe I am a bit harsh here, but, discounting martyrdom, I don't believe that any physical healthy person, who has committed suicide was at a mentally stable point in their lives. EDIT: I feel kind of lovely now, for saying that a bunch of desperate dead people where crazy, but in some sense, that is my opinion. cant cook creole bream fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Apr 7, 2017 |
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Apr 7, 2017 19:32
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cant cook creole bream posted:I just went through the show and enjoyed it quite a bit. But after reading some of the posts around here, I have to agree that there are some real issues I overlooked especially with regard to her mental state. She was pretty clearly unstable and had serious mental issues. She had some genuinely terrible things happen to her, but she also saw some of the other things that are just facts of high school as other slights (friends dropping her for more popular people, etc.) She sounded like she had a clear head, but I think it was pretty clear that she had major issues. I don't even see her "giving life another chance" on the 13th tape as a legitimate attempt. She grabbed the razor blades at the same time as the tapes, brought the tape recorder and intentionally recorded the counseler. I think maybe she hoped that he would say something to change her mind, but ultimately her decision was made and that final tape was just to wrap things up and make a statement about the lack of support the school offered. Also, I really, really hope this doesn't get a second season. It's a fully contained story and doesn't need a second chapter. Honestly, I rolled my eyes at the chest full of guns. Seriously, does every show have to have a school shooter these days?
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Apr 7, 2017 19:56
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Yeah I do hope they don't do a second season, I thought that was extremely unnecessary and probably my only complaint with the show's ending.
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Apr 7, 2017 20:24
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I binged it; probably shouldn't have, a friend committed suicide on Sunday. I feel like, aside from some of the more extreme parts i.e. rape/witnessing rape/ Marcus grabbing her/I lost the money and hosed up everything! it does touch on lovely parts of the teenaged experience; both real bullying and how both sides of the story have different POVs. By the end, I honestly felt worse for some of the 'causation' characters over Hannah. LadyPictureShow fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Apr 7, 2017 |
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Apr 7, 2017 21:50
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Just finished watching Episode 1. So far it's pretty good, but not especially compelling. I think I'll give the rest of the series a try. From the discussion, I'm guessing that I'm the only one here who has read the original book. So far it's been following the plot pretty closely, with one big exception: as you can expect from a book published in 2007, the original had no smartphones. There was no phone photo sharing, Justin just exaggerated the story when he told it to his buddies. I have to say that the change isn't entirely seamless, what with Hannah still describing it as "a rumor based on a kiss." I'm still not sure what to think about this kind of updating, and at this point all I can say is that it feels a little strange. Especially considering that the author used a type of media that was already out of date, and described as such in the book, specifically to avoid dating the work.
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Apr 8, 2017 02:01
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First episode is the worst. I think it picks up after that. I probably would have only checked out the first if I hadn't been lazy on the couch and autoplayed the 2nd.
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Apr 8, 2017 02:04
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loving A this show is unflinching. That scene in episode 12 
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Apr 8, 2017 17:34
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Talking to this show with my psychology friends (clinical, etc) and they had some criticisms. Mainly that it should never be ok to show self harm/suicide/sexual assault etc on camera. I disagree. I also feel in this terrain you could criticize any attempt in any manner so in order for this stuff to be brought into culture we really need to just suck up the criticisms/messiness and just do it. Which is what this show does (well).
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Apr 9, 2017 14:49
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Lampsacus posted:Talking to this show with my psychology friends (clinical, etc) and they had some criticisms. Mainly that it should never be ok to show self harm/suicide/sexual assault etc on camera. I disagree. I also feel in this terrain you could criticize any attempt in any manner so in order for this stuff to be brought into culture we really need to just suck up the criticisms/messiness and just do it. Which is what this show does (well). I think the show did a terrifyingly excellent job of making sure that the suicide scene was as savage and uncomfortable to watch as possible. This wasn't a "quick slit and she drifts off" scene, it looked horrific and honestly I turned away for a few seconds. And I'm a giant fan of the horror genre so I've seen fake deaths of every imaginable method.
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Apr 9, 2017 14:59
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Lampsacus posted:Talking to this show with my psychology friends (clinical, etc) and they had some criticisms. Mainly that it should never be ok to show self harm/suicide/sexual assault etc on camera. I disagree. That's especially weird in this day and age when you can spend 2 minutes and find video clips of real people actually killing themselves live and on camera. Am I understanding you that their position is that no film or piece of art should ever show those things?
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Apr 9, 2017 22:44
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Yeah. I agree with you both. Realpolitik, they're being contrarian to flaunt their professional 'authority' on the show. If they have it the thumbs up like everybody else what differentiates their status? That's my best bet. Again, you could write screeds of essays on why 13 Reasons is bad but you could do that for everything ever so. Anyway, good show. Definitely not watching it again.
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Apr 10, 2017 00:56
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I wasn't enjoying this much up until about episode 7 because Hannah's voice and lines on the tapes was driving me mental with the teen philosopher tone and it seemed like an upgunned Gossip Girl/Pretty Little Liars. The final four episodes were fantastic and it drew all the issues from the series out very well. I've seen people try to call out Bryce as being a cartoon villain or whatever, but the thing is that Bryces exist and it was great the way the show hid him in plain sight for the majority of the series. The fact that they made it very clear that he was constantly enabled and supported by his peer group thanks to being powerful was one of the better points of the show for me. Went from skeptical at the outset, but the end of the show (outside of leaving it open for another season which is not a good idea) was great.
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Apr 10, 2017 02:10
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Mostly enjoying this so far. I'm wrapping up episode 3,and the thing that really bothers me so far are all the loving tattoos these high school kids have. It's not implausible for a high schooler to have a tattoo, but some of them like skye and Tyler have tons for being 18 (if that?).
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Apr 10, 2017 02:26
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Lots of high school kids have a couple tattoos but yeah the one girl who looked about 30 and had at least 12 visible tattoos was insane. I thought she only worked at the coffee shop and knew Clay from outside school so when I saw her at school in a later episode I burst out laughing. It looked ridiculous.
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Apr 10, 2017 02:34
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Hahaha yep I was on about episode 3 when I posted on the Couch Chat thread "Maybe this is old man Medullah speaking here, but do high school kids get all tattooed up including full tribal bands these days??? I'm glad I'm not the only one that was bothered by that.
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Apr 10, 2017 02:43
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Again, so far it's really just that girl and Tyler. A few other people have one or two but those two have a lot and some of them fairly big.
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Apr 10, 2017 02:46
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