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boner confessor posted:mcdonalds has been testing kiosks on and off since the 90s. there will still be cashiers for the forseeable future because most people dont like using kiosks The true dark future is my automated car driving me to the automated burger joint where I am automatically fed into the grinder after my automatic HMO has deemed my body unfit for living but fit for taco bell meat.
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Apr 10, 2017 13:49
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White Rock posted:See the thing i don't get about the opposition to 15$ min wage is the argument of "but McBurger will replace everyone with robots if you raise the minimum wage!!!" I mean, it could make sense if the automation costs aren't profitable at $5/hour, but they are at $15/hour. It's costly to develop and implement this stuff, and in a big corporation those costs need to be justified. It's possible that the tipping point for McDonalds to go all out is somewhere between where wages are now, and $15/hour. My thing is, so what? You're right, it's inevitable. While the argument that raising the price of labor will make automation more profitable is true, I don't see how that's a reason not to raise wages. No one can live on $5/hour and that's the only argument that matters. High wages makes automation more attractive. Replacing expensive labor saves more money than replacing cheap labor. The same people who think they're bulletproof because they have jobs that require a college degree actually have a bullseye on their back. It's not about eliminating people altogether, it's about eliminating common tasks that are shared among a lot of people. If you have 100k employees, and you can eliminate 2 hours a week of some common task, you just eliminated 10M hours of work over a year. That's the same as eliminating 5k jobs. If you're an accounting firm that pays a hell of a lot more than McDonalds, those 10M hours cost you a lot more. Eliminating them saves you a lot more money. One of my friends just started working IT at an accounting firm. His orientation was full of young computer guys who didn't really know what their jobs were outside of being smart and using computers real good. Hmmmmm, I wonder.
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Apr 10, 2017 14:34
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Do we really gotta have multiple automation threads?boner confessor posted:mcdonalds has been testing kiosks on and off since the 90s. there will still be cashiers for the forseeable future because most people dont like using kiosks Keep in mind this did not stop McDonalds from threatening the $15 minimum movement with automation. Technology isn't going to replace jobs wholesale in an instant (even though a chinese chip maker recently made it look that way). It'll be a gradual process, where you need less cashiers and cooks over time. We don't know when a fully automated fast food place will be viable, but we will still run into high systemic unemployment levels well before that happens.
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Apr 10, 2017 14:53
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Panera has order kiosks (and app) and Chick Fil A has an app you can order ahead. It is already happening, but there still are not enough workers to fill every shift so who cares. Plus people are bad at using automation and it takes more labor to fix the screw ups. (But i didn't want tartar sauce on my hamburger).
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Apr 10, 2017 14:54
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Freakazoid_ posted:Keep in mind this did not stop McDonalds from threatening the $15 minimum movement with automation. sure, but that's because automation is just a catchphrase that lets you tell workers why you're not going to pay them more and you can have a bunch of just worlders and techbros agree that the poor people should in fact be paid less Freakazoid_ posted:We don't know when a fully automated fast food place will be viable, but we will still run into high systemic unemployment levels well before that happens. 
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Apr 10, 2017 17:33
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Automats were actually really popular, though, and mostly got hosed because they couldn't scale out to suburbs as well as fast food places.
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Apr 10, 2017 17:40
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Telling a kiosk 01001001 00100111 01100100 00100000 01101100 01101001 01101011 01100101 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01110011 01110000 01100101 01100001 01101011 00100000 01110111 01101001 01110100 01101000 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01101101 01100001 01101110 01100001 01100111 01100101 01110010 is going to be very annoying
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Apr 10, 2017 17:57
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Paradoxish posted:Automats were actually really popular, though, and mostly got hosed because they couldn't scale out to suburbs as well as fast food places. automats are still popular in niche applications in europe. japan also has a real strong vending machine game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGY3M9kl7dk point is though people are taking this assumption of "fast food used to not be automated, is getting more automated, this is a trend that is increasing and will increase" when they're basically connecting two anecdotal data points, from then until now. the relationship between labor and automation in terms of food production is more complex than that, particularly when it comes to eating out which relies heavily on emotional labor and creating a special experience to justify drawing customers. i for one think that a number of people would resist automated fast food ordering simply because they wouldn't have anyone to yell and scream at. from my time working in restaurants i'm completely convinced there's a substantial number of people who run scams and adulterate their own food just to have an excuse to chew someone out who can't fight back at risk of losing their job boner confessor fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Apr 10, 2017 |
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Apr 10, 2017 18:00
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Unless the 15 is pegged to inflation we are going to be right back where we are now in like 10 years. But yea guaranteed basic income is the best.
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Apr 10, 2017 18:15
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Paradoxish posted:Automats were actually really popular, though, and mostly got hosed because they couldn't scale out to suburbs as well as fast food places. How did they work outside the lunch rush hour? I'm imagining a lot of very dry fruit pies that had been under heat lamps for way too long.
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Apr 10, 2017 18:23
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:But yea guaranteed basic income is the best. Yeah relying on the largesse of the rich sounds like a great idea
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Apr 10, 2017 18:26
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boner confessor posted:point is though people are taking this assumption of "fast food used to not be automated, is getting more automated, this is a trend that is increasing and will increase" when they're basically connecting two anecdotal data points, from then until now. the relationship between labor and automation in terms of food production is more complex than that, particularly when it comes to eating out which relies heavily on emotional labor and creating a special experience to justify drawing customers. I don't think you're wrong about this, but I was just pointing out that customer service wasn't really what shut down the automat trend in the US. Vending technology (especially payment processing) was really poor up until recently, so more traditional fast food just ended up being a lot more convenient for a lot of people. Rolling up to a drive thru and not worrying about exact change is going to beat out waiting in line for a vending machine for anyone living in a car suburb. quote:i for one think that a number of people would resist automated fast food ordering simply because they wouldn't have anyone to yell and scream at. from my time working in restaurants i'm completely convinced there's a substantial number of people who run scams and adulterate their own food just to have an excuse to chew someone out who can't fight back at risk of losing their job This I don't really agree with, though, but I'm not basing that on anything than my own personal experiences. Most of my social group (generally people in their late 20s and early 30s) drastically prefer just about any kind of automated order process when it comes to fast food ordering. Nobody I know likes ordering delivery if they can't do it through Grubhub/Eat24. Everyone I know uses an app if it's available for takeout from places like Panera, Five Guys, etc. Hell, I had someone tell me a few days ago that he orders from Panera specifically because the food is just sitting on a shelf and he can run in and out during his lunchbreak without having to talk to anyone. I'm not saying that food servers are going away, but in the case of fast food specifically I think that convenience generally outweighs "experience" for most people.
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Apr 10, 2017 18:34
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Paradoxish posted:I'm not saying that food servers are going away, but in the case of fast food specifically I think that convenience generally outweighs "experience" for most people. convenience is an experience. mcdonalds just takes frozen food and heats it up and presents it so you're getting something "fresh" and hot and salty. the ultimate in automated food production are cheapo frozen meals but people don't like to eat those forever. fast food provides some variety in the diet, a gut bomb of salt, fat, and sugar, for very little cost in time and money. that is the experience. plus also you get the family friendly layer with toys for kids and sometimes a playground
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Apr 10, 2017 18:40
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Paradoxish posted:Most of my social group (generally people in their late 20s and early 30s) drastically prefer just about any kind of automated order process when it comes to fast food ordering. Nobody I know likes ordering delivery if they can't do it through Grubhub/Eat24. It certainly makes it less effort. Phoning for food involves trying to get information through to a waitress who speaks English as a second language and who is standing in a noisy, crowded restaurant. I still do it sometimes because some restaurants make it worth your while in terms of prices.
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Apr 10, 2017 18:40
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Paradoxish posted:I'm not saying that food servers are going away, but in the case of fast food specifically I think that convenience generally outweighs "experience" for most people. Definitely so, if you exclude the top of the market. Frankly, you need to go to a really good restaurant ($50-100/person minimum) before the service actually adds to the experience. I love places with service staff that are extremely good and knowledgeable about what they do, but at that point it's a high-skill position and they aren't going to bother working anywhere they can't clear hundreds of dollars in tips on a decent night.
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Apr 10, 2017 18:46
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paternity suitor posted:I mean, it could make sense if the automation costs aren't profitable at $5/hour, but they are at $15/hour. It's costly to develop and implement this stuff, and in a big corporation those costs need to be justified. It's possible that the tipping point for McDonalds to go all out is somewhere between where wages are now, and $15/hour. My thing is, so what? You're right, it's inevitable. While the argument that raising the price of labor will make automation more profitable is true, I don't see how that's a reason not to raise wages. No one can live on $5/hour and that's the only argument that matters. Absolutley. Opposing automation because of labor concerns seems very luddite to me. In abstract sense, how is productivity gains something bad? Companies are clearly pushing this out because they are afraid that a raised minimum wage will reduce profits, simply because they are NOT ready for the robot replacement of every single fast food location. We can also see this in Uber and Amazons desperate, manic struggle to oppose unions, with the whole "We will leave the entire city if you unionize, we will abandon everything to stop unions.". Clearly self interest of the workers is not high on their priority list. DeusExMachinima posted:Didn't expect accelerationism to show up so soon but we are living in the future after all~~ Not opposing the inevitable is not the same as accelerationism. Opposing automation is like smashing the spinning Jenny, your bound to lose and what your doing is very short sighted. Speaking of modular housing, in Sweden modular or semi modular construction is very popular, we've been doing it since the 80's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2yoBNYAosY
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Apr 11, 2017 12:35
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The automat was not fully automated. Human cooks were needed to make the food and put them in the slots.
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Apr 11, 2017 21:55
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Freakazoid_ posted:The automat was not fully automated. Human cooks were needed to make the food and put them in the slots. No loving poo poo. Do you think the McDonald's ordering touchscreens will be able to cook?
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Apr 11, 2017 21:59
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WampaLord posted:No loving poo poo. Do you think the McDonald's ordering touchscreens will be able to cook? Touchscreens don't cook, but other robots can do a majority of the cooking and prep, vastly reducing the amounts of humans in the kitchen
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Apr 11, 2017 22:01
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call to action posted:Touchscreens don't cook, but other robots can do a majority of the cooking and prep, vastly reducing the amounts of humans in the kitchen McDonalds already use "cooking robots" in that the machines in their kitchen are a lot more specialized than a standard kitchen. Actual robotics would end up more like the notoriously broken McFlurry machine - needing a lot of worker cleaning and maintenance to keep working. Current robots are really poor at dealing with situations like "all gunked up with organic matter."
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Apr 11, 2017 22:07
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WampaLord posted:No loving poo poo. Do you think the McDonald's ordering touchscreens will be able to cook? Of course not you dummy, but there is this: https://www.engadget.com/2017/03/08/burger-flipping-robot-flippy/ And eventually this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDprrrEdomM By the way, the automation thread has many more examples, some of which are food related. Freakazoid_ fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Apr 11, 2017 |
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Apr 11, 2017 22:12
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Freakazoid_ posted:Of course not you dummy, but there is this: https://www.engadget.com/2017/03/08/burger-flipping-robot-flippy/ yeah this is bullshit the robot in question is shown doing some incredibly basic cooking tasks, like putting stuff in a pot and stirring i don't see anything in the demonstration showing it can make 5-star food or handle more complicated cooking tasks, and startups have shown they are not above promising poo poo they don't even have the faintest idea how to implement Condiv fucked around with this message at 10:09 on Apr 12, 2017 |
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Apr 12, 2017 10:03
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Condiv posted:yeah this is bullshit yeah this thing is just a gimmick for people with too much money first off it only makes one thing, crab bisque. and it was 'trained' by recording a chef's actions, meaning that you have to prep the robot by placing the exact ingredients in the precise location where the robot can find them. so it's not as automated as you think http://www.grubstreet.com/2017/01/the-limits-and-possibilities-of-a-robot-chef.html quote:I was greeted by Moley Robotics’ head of engineering, David Walsh, and Janine — just Janine — who, wearing a gray cardigan and plastic gloves, was at a prep station opposite Moley, measuring out ingredients on an electronic scale and placing them in ramekins and cups and on plates. “Are you Moley’s sous-chef?” I asked. and why a goofy pair of jetsons robot arms? once you're automating food production you can do all kinds of things with industrial processes that dont have to mimic the human form https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pVhkgYUgo0 society already has tons of robot cooks, which make everything from snack food to frozen meals to canned tuna. you can dial up the complexity and presentation pretty well. a silly pair of disembodied robot arms is the kind of thing that isn't mechanically practical in any short or moderate term timeframe but it exactly hits people with a big punch of futurist wow factor so that you can sell your super overpriced soup maker to some rich tech bro for $20k a set meanwhile mcdonalds and other fast food joints have a massively complicated logistics chain of automatic production of buns, patties, and other prepackaged ingredients which are assembled, heated, and fully cooked on site for consumption and this is all far more efficient automatic food production than some silly single purpose burger cooking machine boner confessor fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Apr 12, 2017 |
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Apr 12, 2017 17:23
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Paradoxish posted:I'm not saying that food servers are going away, but in the case of fast food specifically I think that convenience generally outweighs "experience" for most people. I'm making a super minor quibble here, but places like five guys and panera and chipotle are what's referred to as "fast casual". It's generally for places that aren't full on fast food like mcdonald's, but they're still not full sit down restaurants like a TGI friday's or something either. It's the goonsayiest thing to say, but w/e. In this case, it's good to be exact about what we're talking about here. Also, mechanization of food won't happen outside of fast food, and probably not even then, because the cost of opening your store just shot up by about a thousand percent, and you still have to hire people, just more specialized people, and in the end the result probably won't be better. Remember, fast food places are franchises, which means when a new Burger King opens up down the street, it's not corporate BK opening it, it's them allowing some schmuck from your community who has enough liquid wealth to not drag corporate down with them if they fail. Those opportunities dry up real quick if instead of needing a few million liquid you need 15-20 million liquid. This problem is compounded when you're talking about people opening restaurants of their own and suddenly instead of needing to drop 50-100k on equipment, they'd be dropping probably closer to a million or more. This would kill almost every mom and pop family owned place in the cradle, including those chinese restaurants you see everywhere and every pizza place that isn't pizza hut, little ceasar's, round table, and papa john's. Also, keep in mind that 15 dollar minimum wage has already been done. The news will trickle up to corporate, and probably already has been, that increasing the minimum wage is actually fantastic for the restaurant industry because when people have more money to spend, the first thing they spend it on is social eating. It's a toothless threat because the food industry would quite literally be cutting off its nose to spite its face by going mechanize instead of raising the minimum wage. edit: also, food safety would be an absolute bitch to maintain. LITERALLY MY FETISH fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Apr 12, 2017 |
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Apr 12, 2017 17:48
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:Also, mechanization of food won't happen outside of fast food, mechanization of restaurant food has already happened. most americans probably think of a ceasar salad as bagged precut prewashed iceberg lettuce, bagged sysco croutons, and sysco caesar salad dressing with a little kraft parmasean cheeselike substitute sprinked on top. olive garden food pretty much all comes in bags from the darden group's industrial kitchens. as you said, the only places that are still real restaurants are some mom and pop joints or places that are full on fancy service foodie joints like gastropubs and the like. even then most mom and pops still order off the sysco catalog and there's equivalents for the ubiquitious strip mall chinese restaurants too
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Apr 12, 2017 18:15
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Also, automation of the ordering process requires very little (if any) hardware. Kiosk ordering might take off or it might not, but the real future there is just an expansion of ordering through apps or websites. A lot of that work is going to be done through third parties and won't have major upfront costs. Will it mean you don't need staff to man cashiers or take orders in restaurants? No, but it will probably mean that you'll need fewer of them as more and more people opt for the convenience of ordering before they actually show up at the restaurant.
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Apr 12, 2017 18:20
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:Also, keep in mind that 15 dollar minimum wage has already been done. The news will trickle up to corporate, and probably already has been, that increasing the minimum wage is actually fantastic for the restaurant industry because when people have more money to spend, the first thing they spend it on is social eating. It's a toothless threat because the food industry would quite literally be cutting off its nose to spite its face by going mechanize instead of raising the minimum wage. $15 an hour will work well in most medium-to-large cities. It will absolutely assfuck a lot of rural areas, though. Now the one Walmart in town, which is the town's largest job provider, will close down since they've consolidated everything into the Walmart the next town (or two) over. Then again, pretty much everything ends up loving over rural America, so what else is new?
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Apr 12, 2017 18:35
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Paradoxish posted:Also, automation of the ordering process requires very little (if any) hardware. Kiosk ordering might take off or it might not, but the real future there is just an expansion of ordering through apps or websites. A lot of that work is going to be done through third parties and won't have major upfront costs. Will it mean you don't need staff to man cashiers or take orders in restaurants? No, but it will probably mean that you'll need fewer of them as more and more people opt for the convenience of ordering before they actually show up at the restaurant. the problem here isn't hardware, it's user interface. software like excel or photoshop can't be simplified to make it more user freindly without sacrificing functionality. likewise, POS software like Presto! has to have a certain minimum functionality to cover all the specific events which could happen at a table. complexity of menu is directly related to complexity of UI which is why you have some limited use of kiosks in fast food to supplement a cashier who can handle difficult edge cases but practically no use of kiosks at sit down menu restaurants except as gimmicks customers who get the same simple thing every time (let me get a #1 combo with sprite) are easy to handle with order ahead apps or kiosks. customers who dont know what they want, who have complex orders, or have special demands (let me get half sweet tea half unsweet with light ice and three lemons) are going to have to talk to someone for the foreseeable future just because it's hard to design an interface that can handle all those special cases in a way that's easy for the average person to navigate efficiently
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Apr 12, 2017 18:41
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Condiv posted:yeah this is bullshit You're missing the forest for the trees, or in this case a single tree.
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Apr 12, 2017 18:45
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Or you could just not give them the option of making all of those changes. I'm already ordering just the #2 with a coke and picking the onions off since half the time the person putting in the order or making it screws that part up anyway. I can't count the number of times my wife has been let down when she gets her order and they've either made none of her changes or made different ones than she's asked for.
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Apr 12, 2017 18:47
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Freakazoid_ posted:You're missing the forest for the trees, or in this case a single tree. no, you're getting swindled by an impractical hammacher-schlemmacher device that resembles things you saw in cartoons as a child while ignoring that canned crab bisque has been a thing for 40+ years CFox posted:Or you could just not give them the option of making all of those changes. I'm already ordering just the #2 with a coke and picking the onions off since half the time the person putting in the order or making it screws that part up anyway. I can't count the number of times my wife has been let down when she gets her order and they've either made none of her changes or made different ones than she's asked for. you're just going to drive customers away to places that provide better 'customer service' whatever that means to that particular individual a lot of people aren't picky. a lot of people are, enough to where catering to picky, crabby, or otherwise demanding and unpleasant customers is just part of the job
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Apr 12, 2017 18:48
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boner confessor posted:mechanization of restaurant food has already happened. most americans probably think of a ceasar salad as bagged precut prewashed iceberg lettuce, bagged sysco croutons, and sysco caesar salad dressing with a little kraft parmasean cheeselike substitute sprinked on top. olive garden food pretty much all comes in bags from the darden group's industrial kitchens. as you said, the only places that are still real restaurants are some mom and pop joints or places that are full on fancy service foodie joints like gastropubs and the like. even then most mom and pops still order off the sysco catalog and there's equivalents for the ubiquitious strip mall chinese restaurants too You're right, but that's not the mechanization I'm talking about. People ITT are speculating about restaurants that are run by robots, and that's the unrealistic viewpoint I'm getting at. LanceHunter posted:$15 an hour will work well in most medium-to-large cities. It will absolutely assfuck a lot of rural areas, though. Now the one Walmart in town, which is the town's largest job provider, will close down since they've consolidated everything into the Walmart the next town (or two) over. Getting $15 an hour from corporations would actually help rural areas. I don't know whether the 15 dollar wage would hurt local businesses, but I suspect it wouldn't. Also, citation needed. I've posted my evidence already, let's see yours.
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Apr 12, 2017 18:58
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boner confessor posted:the problem here isn't hardware, it's user interface. software like excel or photoshop can't be simplified to make it more user freindly without sacrificing functionality. likewise, POS software like Presto! has to have a certain minimum functionality to cover all the specific events which could happen at a table. complexity of menu is directly related to complexity of UI which is why you have some limited use of kiosks in fast food to supplement a cashier who can handle difficult edge cases but practically no use of kiosks at sit down menu restaurants except as gimmicks Panera Bread already allows you to remove, add, or modify (light/extra) any ingredient on every item on their menu. It's not that hard. And if you can't get three lemons cut in half, well, that probably wasn't going to happen at human McDonalds either.
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Apr 12, 2017 19:00
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call to action posted:Panera Bread already allows you to remove, add, or modify (light/extra) any ingredient on every item on their menu. It's not that hard. And if you can't get three lemons cut in half, well, that probably wasn't going to happen at human McDonalds either. panera bread also has a pretty basic menu. you can't do much to change a soup, sandwiches are piss easy, etc. if you slow down and take the time to actually read my post, particularly the part where i said "complexity of menu is directly related to complexity of UI " you may find the answers you seek namaste
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Apr 12, 2017 19:02
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call to action posted:Panera Bread already allows you to remove, add, or modify (light/extra) any ingredient on every item on their menu. It's not that hard. And if you can't get three lemons cut in half, well, that probably wasn't going to happen at human McDonalds either. People still have to make that food. Like, pointing to phone apps as the death of people manned restaurants is so loving backwards it's absurd. There are other pieces of evidence you can point to, like the above mentioned mechanization of salads and restaurants buying most of their poo poo from sysco, but phone apps is where you see it all changing?
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Apr 12, 2017 19:03
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boner confessor posted:panera bread also has a pretty basic menu. you can't do much to change a soup, sandwiches are piss easy, etc. if you slow down and take the time to actually read my post, particularly the part where i said "complexity of menu is directly related to complexity of UI " you may find the answers you seek namaste Last time I checked, McDonalds didn't have a more complicated menu than Panera, and it was the restaurant we were talking about. I can change the amount I receive of any of the six ingredients on my salad, for example.
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Apr 12, 2017 19:03
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:the above mentioned mechanization of salads and restaurants buying most of their poo poo from sysco, but phone apps is where you see it all changing? turns out most goons are fascinated by fast food and mobile apps and have never worked actual jobs and don't understand how the proverbial sausage is made, who knew? call to action posted:Last time I checked, McDonalds didn't have a more complicated menu than Panera, and it was the restaurant we were talking about. I can change the amount I receive of any of the six ingredients on my salad, for example. last time i checked i also said fast food is suitable for limited use of kiosks because they have simple menus. turn your monitor on, amigo e: haha "i can change the amount of any of the staggering six ingredients on my salad! i can choose half or 3/4 portion! limitless freedom!" boner confessor fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Apr 12, 2017 |
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Apr 12, 2017 19:04
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Complete sidenote, my favorite thing about working nights at chipotle was when we left the guy in the panera we shared a building with was starting with making the cinnamon rolls. God drat did those smell good.
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Apr 12, 2017 19:04
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:Also, keep in mind that 15 dollar minimum wage has already been done. The news will trickle up to corporate, and probably already has been, that increasing the minimum wage is actually fantastic for the restaurant industry because when people have more money to spend, the first thing they spend it on is social eating. It's a toothless threat because the food industry would quite literally be cutting off its nose to spite its face by going mechanize instead of raising the minimum wage. This won't actually happen because each individual employer has the incentive to keep their wages low and free ride on the increased consumer spending all the other employers promote. Were this true they'd be raising wages without being legally mandated to do so.
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Apr 12, 2017 19:06
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boner confessor posted:turns out most goons are fascinated by fast food and mobile apps and have never worked actual jobs and don't understand how the proverbial sausage is made, who knew? LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:People still have to make that food. Like, pointing to phone apps as the death of people manned restaurants is so loving backwards it's absurd. There are other pieces of evidence you can point to, like the above mentioned mechanization of salads and restaurants buying most of their poo poo from sysco, but phone apps is where you see it all changing? You both need to take a deep breath and read what I actually posted, I didn't say poo poo about phone apps or the "death" of anything, you loving retards and lol at some moron taking a shot at the job he/she thinks I have, that's rich af boner confessor posted:turns out most goons are fascinated by fast food and mobile apps and have never worked actual jobs and don't understand how the proverbial sausage is made, who knew? Honest question, are you just irritable because you're out of weed or are you always this unhinged
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Apr 12, 2017 19:06
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