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Peel
Dec 3, 2007

baloogan don't read this










proleix, hello

'Capital' (Das Kapital, US, UK, online) is a classic study of capitalism by Karl Marx. Written in exile in England after the failed revolutions of 1848, it draws together a complex theory of capitalism's origins, processes and eventual fate. It covers the brutality of colonialism overseas and industrial development at home, the alienating and dehumanising nature of capitalist labour, and the systemic, internal tendency to capitalist crisis that keeps popping back up despite all attempts by liberals to engineer it away. It describes a theory of class struggle - that capitalism is not a free and harmonious march to utopia under the banner of reason, but a struggle where an ascendant class of owners of the means of production (the bourgeoisie) seeks to force the rest of society, the working class (proletariat), to do that actual production for them. All this in a time when free-market theory was becoming hegemonic in a way not repeated perhaps until today - the original liberalism of which neo-liberalism is just the reprise. Once written, Capital became the central text of socialism and communism, guiding opponents of capitalism from Rosa Luxemburg in Germany to Mao Zedong in China.

We're going to read it.

The book is in three volumes. Volume 1 (1867, on capitalist production) is the only one turned to a final draft and published by Marx. Volumes 2 (1885, on capitalist exchange) and 3 (1894, on crisis formation) were edited and published by his friend and collaborator Friedrich Engels after Marx's death. This thread will focus on the first volume and we'll take stock when we're done with it. Even the first volume is pretty long, but we'll have help along the way.

David Harvey is one of the most prominent modern Marxists and the creator of Marxist geography. His lecture series 'Reading Marx's Capital' is a standard recommendation for people reading this book. Currently it covers volumes 1 and 2. It is also available in book form as A Companion to Marx's Capital (US, UK, for Vol 1). The plan is to schedule the thread around the lectures at a rate of 1/week to keep reading manageable, since we're all busy with posting and videogames and sometimes school or maybe even jobs. Don't worry if you fall behind, keep posting anyway, it's better to have a dozen people carrying on a discussion than nobody posting because we all got bogged down in a tough chapter then had a busy weekend.


:justpost:


FAQ:
why the gently caress would I read all these words? jesus christ

Good question. In the first place, Capital is a sophisticated theory of the workings of capitalism, the system that dominates the whole world now in a way that was only beginning in Marx's own time. We all have to reckon with capitalism if we're interested in politics. And if you're already a marxist I don't need to tell you why you might be interested in this book.

In the second place, Capital is extremely influential. You're a DSA type who thinks class needs to be back at the front of the agenda? This book helped put it there in the first place. Besides the several actual states claiming allegiance to marxist theory, it was socialists that brought you the eight-hour day, the right to strike and organise, safety regulations and all those other things neoliberalism has been busily trying to destroy. In the theoretical world the academic discipline of economics, so close to the rich, has mostly been able to barricade Marx out, but any other discipline of social science will have a school of 'Marxist X' that examines its subject matter from the standpoint of class and capitalism. And there's still plenty of actual marxist analysts working outside of mainstream economics departments. Marxism is at a low ebb right now, after the fall of the explicitly socialist states and the neoliberal triumph in the West, but we all know the trouble that triumph is in right now, and if you leave the wealthiest countries you'll find plenty more people upholding Marx, some even in power. Why would the theory of proletarian revolution be predominant in the centres of bourgeois might?

In the third place, it's important historically. One of the most influential books of the 19th century and a window into the time when our modern world was built in the collapsing shell of the old. To the extent you live in a society strongly affected by the thought of 19th century Europe, which between imperialism and state socialism is pretty much all of them, this book is a part of your intellectual heritage.


isn't there an updated version? it's like 150 years old

Plenty of people have written books of modern marxist theory, and all the institutional marxisms had their textbooks for their universities, but there's nothing widely accepted as canonical in the same way as the original. This is to be expected given the fragmented nature of modern socialism. There are widely-accepted textbooks for teaching in economics degrees in universities, but those exist because they're needed: large institutions with many students need standard texts for standard teaching. That's not where we are or what we're doing.

There's a lot of books of modern radical theory and I expect we'll pass titles around in this thread, but there's only one Capital. And the modern world with capitalism triumphant is arguably a much purer representation of the world Capital analysed, rather than its own time when capitalism was still clearing out the weeds of aristocracy and spreading out across the globe in fleets and armies.


i've already read capital, and also theories of surplus value and the 1844 manuscripts and...

post plz


i can't get a copy/don't have the time/don't want to read a zillion words!!!

:justpost:, just bear in mind this is a thread for reading Capital and will be framed around that, particularly if you're being highly critical of the thing you aren't reading in a thread full of people who are.


i'm a liberal

There's no ideological test to post ITT. I'm not actually marxist. Just make good posts based on engaging with the text and the ideas rather than bad posts based on whinging or weak dunks.



I have the Kindle edition of the Penguin Classics translation, the Vintage Books edition has the same page numbers. There's also a free english version at the dependable marxists.org:

Annual Prophet posted:

didn't see the free edition linked so here it is; i have a hard copy so i'm not sure about the translation quality of this version

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/index.htm

marxists.org also has a large library of other works and materials for anyone interested
The marxists.org version of Volume 2 can be found here. Volume 3 is here.


Index
1-01: Introduction
1-02: Chapters 1 and 2
1-03: Chapter 3
1-04: Chapters 4, 5 and 6
1-05: Chapters 7, 8 and 9
1-06: Chapters 10 and 11
1-07: Chapters 12, 13 and 14
1-08: Chapter 15 sections 1-3
1-09: Chapter 15 sections 4-10
1-10: Chapters 16-24
1-11: Chapter 25
1-12: Chapters 26-33
1-13: Conclusion

2-01: Introduction
2-02: Chapters 1-3
2-03: Chapters 4-6
2-04: Chapters 7-11
2-05: Volume 3 Chapters 16-20
2-06: Volume 3 Chapters 21-26

Peel has issued a correction as of 01:28 on Aug 15, 2017

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Peel
Dec 3, 2007

1-01: Introduction

This week is a chance to source a copy and do whatever introductory reading you want. The video doesn't go past the first few pages of the first chapter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBazR59SZXk

The first half of this is general discussion, the second half is a discussion of the first section of the first chapter on the dual nature of the commodity. While it doesn't get far into the text it does touch on marx's 'dialectical' method and the famous labour theory of value, the first of which is controversial within marxism and the second of which is probably the biggest hurdle for non-marxists, particularly mainstream economists. It also makes the point that the first three chapters of the book are the toughest and where most people give up, so if we can make it through those we should have smooth sailing ahead.

Important sections:
31-40 mins: structure of the book
40-50 mins: what's a dialectic?
1:25-1:30: summary and diagram of the commodity structure

Dreddout
Oct 1, 2015

You must stay drunk on writing so reality cannot destroy you.
Ground floor of the proletarian revolution! :ussr:

jarofpiss
May 16, 2009

i look forward to posting about capital itt

Zerg Mans
Oct 19, 2006

Ok, I read it


turns out it doesn't work

Bryter
Nov 6, 2011

but since we are small we may-
uh, we may be the losers

zegermans posted:

Ok, I read it


turns out it doesn't work

You don't need to read Marx to see that capitalism doesn't work pal

ScrubLeague
Feb 11, 2007

Nap Ghost
Why should I read when our current President can't

the bitcoin of weed
Nov 1, 2014

:capitalism: except unironically

jarofpiss
May 16, 2009

Peel posted:


i'm a liberal

There's no ideological test to post ITT. I'm not actually marxist. Just make good posts based on engaging with the text and the ideas rather than bad posts based on whinging or weak dunks.


plz no zegermans itt mods

logikv9
Mar 5, 2009


Ham Wrangler
I always appreciate a high quality op, op

Ruzihm
Aug 11, 2010

Group up and push mid, proletariat!


:stoked:

Dreddout
Oct 1, 2015

You must stay drunk on writing so reality cannot destroy you.

zegermans posted:

Ok, I read it


turns out it doesn't work

Oh word?

Close thread and let Trump start WW3 I guess...

SomeMathGuy
Oct 4, 2014

The people were ASTONISHED at his doctrine.

Hell yeah let's do this. :redflag:

Anyone else have the Penguin edition? Because part of me kind of wants to tackle this gigantic introduction and the rest of me really doesn't, so if anyone strongly recommends/strongly recommends against reading it I'm all ears.

Rhukatah
Feb 26, 2013

by Nyc_Tattoo
I am halfway through lecture 5. I read Capital as a teen in a fit of rebellion against my extremely religious conservative upbringing but I didn't really understand any of it until watching Harvey's lectures.

Zerg Mans
Oct 19, 2006

It should be read in its original German, translators can often times be agents of Capitalists.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Peel
Dec 3, 2007

I have the Penguin as an ebook and while I didn't dislike the introduction I'm struggling to remember any specific theses from it. If you're already more or less familiar with what you're getting into it's probably skippable. It has a great 'clearly we are in the death throes of capitalism in these, the crisis-ridden 1970s' quote in the first few pages though.

I do recommend reading the prefaces and postfaces, they give a nice view of the contemporary reception and what Marx & Engels themselves thought. You can skip the last one once Engels starts having a slapfight with a reviewer over the veracity of some quotation or other.

magnavox space odyssey
Jan 22, 2016

zegermans posted:

It should be read in its original German, translators can often times be agents of Capitalists.

holy poo poo you suck

Zoq-Fot-Pik
Jun 27, 2008

Frungy!

zegermans posted:

It should be read in its original German, translators can often times be agents of Capitalists.

LOL!!!!!!

Hilario Baldness
Feb 10, 2005

:buddy:



Grimey Drawer
Really looking forward to this. I have all three volumes of the Penguin edition along with the Grundrisse.

Ace of Baes
Jul 7, 1977
I read it when I was like 14 and didn't understand much, then again at 17 and understood a lot more, I'm down to reread again since that was like 10 years ago.

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!




Morbid Hound
Since you spelled it with a C instead of a K I thought you were talking about Piketty and I was all excited

Peel
Dec 3, 2007

Piketty is a social-fascist CIA psyop, the title of his masquerading 'book' should be spelled with three Ks.

Mia Wasikowska
Oct 7, 2006

maybe i'll join you since i dont have *twitches* persona 5 to keep me busy

Mean Baby
May 28, 2005

quote:

It also makes the point that the first three chapters of the book are the toughest and where most people give up, so if we can make it through those we should have smooth sailing ahead.

This is me all three times I attempted to read volume 1. I will at minimal :justpost: in this thread and try to push past these three chapters.

For anyone interested in a Marx biography, Love and Capital is a fantastic biography of him and his family. It details the real sacrifices Marx and his family made to help him write these volumes.
Below is a review.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/books/review/love-and-capital-by-mary-gabriel-book-review.html

Mean Baby
May 28, 2005

I'm reading chapter one again and already a great footnote:

quote:

In bourgeois society the legal fiction prevails that each person, as a buyer, has an encyclopedic knowledge of commodities.

I think it goes beyond legal in modern day society, it is almost a moral fiction, like people should know where their eggs or chicken are sourced blah blah blah

Lastgirl
Sep 7, 1997


Good Morning!
Sunday Morning!
i asked about this in the LF thread so its cool that theres a thread for it so i can keep track better

definitely going to try for reading once a week, it seems reasonable. subbed~ :beerpal:

question OP, do we watch the videos/lectures and read like a pdf of the original work alongside it or does the video pretty much give a bread and butter take on it? I haven't checked the video yet but am going to make time for it.

Hilario Baldness
Feb 10, 2005

:buddy:



Grimey Drawer
Librivox entry on Capital. It doesn't match up perfectly for all translations, but for anyone looking for an audiobook, here ya go.

https://librivox.org/capital-volume-1-by-karl-marx/

Dreddout
Oct 1, 2015

You must stay drunk on writing so reality cannot destroy you.
So should we start a betting pool on how many pages this thread will have before the FBI gives Lowtax another visit?

break-up breakdown
Mar 6, 2010

i'm not convinced this won't just be a waste of my time but I'll see how far I can get anyway

Yossarian-22
Oct 26, 2014

I am indeed v busy with posting op... in this thread! Hah!

Hope to have some fruitful discussions with some comrades ITT. I also wanna recommend Brandan McCooney's Law of Value series (found on https://kapitalism101.wordpress.com)

Peel
Dec 3, 2007

good links folks

Lastgirl posted:

i asked about this in the LF thread so its cool that theres a thread for it so i can keep track better

definitely going to try for reading once a week, it seems reasonable. subbed~ :beerpal:

question OP, do we watch the videos/lectures and read like a pdf of the original work alongside it or does the video pretty much give a bread and butter take on it? I haven't checked the video yet but am going to make time for it.

Harvey recommends reading the stuff before the lecture (he keeps sniping at his students about it lol). This week that's just the first section of the first chapter but I also took the chance to read the introduction for an overview.


Is the book club still happening? I had a rec for that.

GlyphGryph
Jun 23, 2013

Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

Since you spelled it with a C instead of a K I thought you were talking about Piketty and I was all excited

Same. Maybe I will start a thread for that later.


But for now I guess I am gonna start the book for this thread.

Red Dad Redemption
Sep 29, 2007

didn't see the free edition linked so here it is; i have a hard copy so i'm not sure about the translation quality of this version

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/index.htm

marxists.org also has a large library of other works and materials for anyone interested

Aeolius
Jul 16, 2003

Simon Templeman Fanclub
Harvey's lectures helped me get started with this stuff, and i recall lots of useful discussion in them. that said, when i recommend them, i strongly echo Harvey's own request that one should definitely read along with it. his presentation is not without weaknesses, and I've seen some compelling critiques. for example, this one focuses entirely on the first chapter of his Companion to Marx's Capital, which is more or less the book form of his lectures. but contained in that chapter are some of the most fundamental concepts in the entire analysis, and if he mishandles, e.g., "abstract labor" early on, it can complicate or otherwise screw up much of what follows

anyway, i'd bill that a serious issue, but don't let it stop you if you want to dive into the videos; the learning process has no endpoint, but it's got to start somewhere. if you're prone to a perfectionistic mindset, do your best to set it aside and accept that you probably won't apprehend every tiny detail in a single pass. and remember to be critical; "the ruthless criticism of all that exists" remains the task at hand.

(incidentally, Harry Cleaver's Reading Capital Politically is also a very good companion to the concepts of the first chapter or so. it's a short book; the meat of it is like 80 pages, including diagrams.)

Annual Prophet posted:

didn't see the free edition linked so here it is; i have a hard copy so i'm not sure about the translation quality of this version

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/index.htm

marxists.org also has a large library of other works and materials for anyone interested

i've been using it for years without ever finding it deficient, but there are some noticeable differences from the Penguin edition. off the top of my head, the word "valorization" doesn't appear in the MIA version, but there was definitely other stuff too

Aeolius has issued a correction as of 16:24 on Apr 11, 2017

Ruzihm
Aug 11, 2010

Group up and push mid, proletariat!


Today is Capital's 150th birthday! He gave the manuscript to his publisher 150 years ago :toot:

Peel
Dec 3, 2007

I somehow had the idea Capital didn't have a free english version atm so that's a really good link and I'll put it in the OP.

woke kaczynski
Jan 23, 2015

How do you do, fellow antifa?



Fun Shoe
Maybe I'll finally finish this loving thing.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007

Gonna have to catch up with this thread later as I've got a lot on my plate and I like having a hard copy, so it'll take a while for me to start this. But looking forward to it!

mags
May 30, 2008

I am a congenital optimist.
Getting in on this. I already own the penguin version. Never got very far in it.

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Ruzihm
Aug 11, 2010

Group up and push mid, proletariat!


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