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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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77 | 25.50% |
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160 | 52.98% |
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65 | 21.52% |
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Majorian posted:I don't know, personally. While it may not be replicable in all districts or states, I think it's a big sign that the Dems should run hard on economic populism, because even a little of it can go a long way. Yeah I'd be curious to see how they run in MT-AL. The playbook from this race seems like it would port well over there. Honestly I don't give a gently caress what anyone believes so long as they vote for Pelosi for Speaker and to investigate Trump. We can have our ideological slap fight after we take back control of the government and are crafting policy. Now's the time for banding together to defeat the greater evil. edit: doggie!  
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Apr 12, 2017 19:58
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Majorian posted:You're making the incredibly unwise assumption that economic populism has nothing to offer in an R+30 district - particularly when most Dems haven't tried that strategy in quite a while anyway. Unless economic populism means standard moderate democrat policies, Thompson didn't run on it. quote:How did they "force" him to do that? That was a precondition to giving him money.
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Apr 12, 2017 19:58
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evilweasel posted:i gave comprehensive answers to your arguments that treated you like an adult, you ignored them and have now chosen to pretend they don't exist, so i'm just going to call you a moron rather than repeat putting in effort to explain why you're wrong again when all you can muster are to repeat the same stupid things i already debunked, but with less detail you've been calling me and other people in this thread a moron since shortly after you got in.  sorry i don't feel like wading through your posts again so i can find the specific quote you want. SSNeoman posted:His posts are fine, he's just telling people not to clutch pearls and eat each other. yes, i would like to see the DNC actually make an effort. instead of saying "nah, we're not gonna do anything, good luck!"
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Apr 12, 2017 19:58
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steinrokkan posted:Even Trumpists are now plurality pro single payer and other things, but we will still assume that you must triangulate the poo poo out of everything because that has been proven to work single payer polls are rediculously unreliable because based on the way you phrase it the support is somewhere btwn 10 and 90% also it's actually a really bad idea imo for either parties to touch healthcare because everybody really really hates changing the healthcare system and losing what they already have, if the dems get in power the first thing they should pass is an actual infrastructure bill
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Apr 12, 2017 19:58
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in the alternate universe where this democrat who ran in a district that went r+a zillion actually WINS: "eww gross what the gently caress is this centrist doing why the gently caress is he even a democrat if he's not advocating Full Communism Now"
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Apr 12, 2017 20:00
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SSNeoman posted:I'll guess CENTRISTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Well, now, wait a moment here - the Sanders wing of the party is offering a strategy that has a chance of winning, when the current strategy has failed pretty dismally. And yet they're fighting to even be heard by centrists in the DNC. It doesn't seem to me like it's the Sanderistas that are being unreasonable here.
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Apr 12, 2017 19:59
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"I support someone so much I'll think the national organization of what that person is a member should send them 0$. " -Someone who claims they are not dumb.
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Apr 12, 2017 19:59
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Condiv posted:yes, i would like to see the DNC actually make an effort. instead of saying "nah, we're not gonna do anything, good luck!" drat dude All American Rejects? Well okay whatever you say.
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Apr 12, 2017 19:59
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axeil posted:I am just loving amazed that people are taking a 20 point swing from 2016 in under 6 months and somehow painting it as DEMOCRATS BAD. This is spectacular news and points to a good chance of winning GA-6, MT-AL and SC-19 plus the state-level races in NJ and VA in the fall. Donald Trump is going to be a trash fire of a president and, like after George W Bush's trash fire presidency, everyone to the left of Joe Manchin recognizes this might be an opportunity to take back power and enact policies that could wildly shift political rhetoric and maybe even change society for the better. Some people are sad right now because they see signs that the Democratic party will (again) blow that opportunity or worse yet somehow manage to not even take back power because they offer desperate and angry people a pile of lukewarm bullshit that they don't care about (again).
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Apr 12, 2017 19:59
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axeil posted:I am just loving amazed that people are taking a 20 point swing from 2016 in under 6 months and somehow painting it as DEMOCRATS BAD. This is spectacular news and points to a good chance of winning GA-6, MT-AL and SC-19 plus the state-level races in NJ and VA in the fall. There was almost no chance of winning a district that in a neutral environment is R-30 barring the Trump piss tape leaking. Why does everyone seem to be pissed instead of elated? Because hoping that the other side fucks up so bad that you win by default isn't a good strategy. Also because the people who run the Democratic party have learned absolutely nothing.
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Apr 12, 2017 20:00
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Cerebral Bore posted:Because hoping that the other side fucks up so bad that you win by default isn't a good strategy. Also because the people who run the Democratic party have learned absolutely nothing. we'll see how it turns out next week after GA-6
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Apr 12, 2017 20:01
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JeffersonClay posted:He campaigned on making trade agreements that made it easier for Kansans to export agricultural products. That's code for free trade agreements. There's a bit of a difference between that and NAFTA or TPP, wouldn't you agree?
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Apr 12, 2017 20:01
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steinrokkan posted:Even Trumpists are now plurality pro single payer and other things, but we will still assume that you must triangulate the poo poo out of everything because that has been proven to work You know what the single most effective thing in moving American discourse left on healthcare was? Obamacare. Because of Obamacare passing, even Republicans who secretly want to go back to the bad old days must give lip service to the idea that the government should secure heath care for everyone. Republicans attack Obamacare from the left. They argue that it has deductions that are too high and coverage that's too small. All true! But the effect has been what sunk the AHCA: that now it is accepted, by Republicans and Democrats alike, that it is the job of the government to secure good health care to everyone. Trying to go back to the old days had a whole 17% support and that was only about halfway back. So for all of the damage it did to the Democratic party in 2010 and 2014, it got done what it set out to do. Getting compromise legislation passed worked. It still requires more work, but it worked.
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Apr 12, 2017 20:02
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evilweasel posted:see this is what i don't get JeffersonClay posted:So you think Thompson ran a standard democratic campaign but that he totally would have won if he'd just been more progressive in his R+30 district? You're delusional. And where is this "oh Bernie Sanders put him in a choke hold that's why he said those things on Reddit for $900" coming from?
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Apr 12, 2017 20:02
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Majorian posted:Well, now, wait a moment here - the Sanders wing of the party is offering a strategy that has a chance of winning, when the current strategy has failed pretty dismally. And yet they're fighting to even be heard by centrists in the DNC. It doesn't seem to me like it's the Sanderistas that are being unreasonable here. I'm not seeing that right now. I will see what the Dems do after Georgia. If they rest on their laurels, I'll stand outside Condiv's house with a boombox
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Apr 12, 2017 20:02
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Cerebral Bore posted:Because hoping that the other side fucks up so bad that you win by default isn't a good strategy. Also because the people who run the Democratic party have learned absolutely nothing. I dunno, 2006 worked pretty loving well for the Dems and it's looking like 2018 is going to be a repeat of that. I mean poo poo, in 2010 the GOP had the biggest wave election ever on OBAMACARE BAD ALSO OBAMA SUCKS TOO. The only reason it didn't work in 2004 is because the Kerry campaign was Clinton-level stupid about how to operate. Maarek posted:Donald Trump is going to be a trash fire of a president and, like after George W Bush's trash fire presidency, everyone to the left of Joe Manchin recognizes this might be an opportunity to take back power and enact policies that could wildly shift political rhetoric and maybe even change society for the better. Some people are sad right now because they see signs that the Democratic party will (again) blow that opportunity or worse yet somehow manage to not even take back power because they offer desperate and angry people a pile of lukewarm bullshit that they don't care about (again). Local politics matter. FULL COMMUNISM NOW won't work in Kansas any more than "actually guns are good" will work in NYC. The Dems successfully took back Congress after the deflating 2004 election in part because they realized that a combo of BUSH BAD and "run with whatever policy works at the local level for you" would get them enough votes to do stuff.
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Apr 12, 2017 20:03
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I would also say that in response to the trade agreements thing. It's one thing to campaign on trade for the reason of "We should have free trade, also it will lift all boats". To campaigning on "This trade agreement will help the people in my district and create jobs here".
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Apr 12, 2017 20:03
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Condiv posted:you've been calling me and other people in this thread a moron since shortly after you got in. perhaps that is because you keep saying monumentally stupid things???????? here is the post debunking your "why Georgia?" argument: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3816838&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=4#post471295404
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Apr 12, 2017 20:04
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Craig K posted:in the alternate universe where this democrat who ran in a district that went r+a zillion actually WINS: https://twitter.com/Wobenar/status/852159629694029824 ugh i can't believe this fickle berniebro has the temerity to criticize perez
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Apr 12, 2017 20:05
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axeil posted:I dunno, 2006 worked pretty loving well for the Dems and it's looking like 2018 is going to be a repeat of that. A big difference that people tend to forget is that Bush only tried to privatize social security after 2004. That was a big, big deal people have forgotten and that did a number on Republican support because, like the AHCA, it was so unpopular it never even got a vote. Kerry wasn't able to run on that. Plus, you know, the whole covering up molesting pages thing in Congress, that didn't help Republicans either and was post-2004.
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Apr 12, 2017 20:05
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JeffersonClay posted:Unless economic populism means standard moderate democrat policies Moderate Dems tend to not run on these proposals. Clinton only did, eventually, and in the least enthusiastic way possible, because Sanders forced her to the left.
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Apr 12, 2017 20:06
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Condiv posted:https://twitter.com/Wobenar/status/852159629694029824 she is legit being real dumb bro
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Apr 12, 2017 20:06
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SSNeoman posted:she is legit being real dumb bro Delve into that a bit, please. Explain to me why what she's saying is unreasonable.
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Apr 12, 2017 20:07
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Majorian posted:Delve into that a bit, please. Explain to me why what she's saying is unreasonable. "Please stop talking to rich allies and instead wave your hands to make america go Bernie's shad of blue"
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Apr 12, 2017 20:07
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evilweasel posted:You know what the single most effective thing in moving American discourse left on healthcare was? Obamacare. Because of Obamacare passing, even Republicans who secretly want to go back to the bad old days must give lip service to the idea that the government should secure heath care for everyone. Republicans attack Obamacare from the left. They argue that it has deductions that are too high and coverage that's too small. All true! But the effect has been what sunk the AHCA: that now it is accepted, by Republicans and Democrats alike, that it is the job of the government to secure good health care to everyone. Trying to go back to the old days had a whole 17% support and that was only about halfway back. I agree with this but that doesn't mean the ACA was handled well in 2009. It wasn't. They started negotiating from the GOP side of the field and that made the law worse and harder to defend.
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Apr 12, 2017 20:08
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axeil posted:I dunno, 2006 worked pretty loving well for the Dems and it's looking like 2018 is going to be a repeat of that. 2006 worked pretty well because the 50-state strategy was sound, and this election indicates that Perez was bullshitting hard when he said he supported it. There's also every indication that the party leadership is falling back into its usual complacency, which bodes ill for 2018.
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Apr 12, 2017 20:08
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Majorian posted:Delve into that a bit, please. Explain to me why what she's saying is unreasonable. Well for starters, "stop playing with non-dem Bernie" seems like a dumb tactical suggestion.
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Apr 12, 2017 20:08
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axeil posted:Local politics matter. FULL COMMUNISM NOW won't work in Kansas any more than "actually guns are good" will work in NYC. The Dems successfully took back Congress after the deflating 2004 election in part because they realized that a combo of BUSH BAD and "run with whatever policy works at the local level for you" would get them enough votes to do stuff. Thompson's platform was basically a bunch of local political gripes and some vaguely populist rhetoric, so it seems like he would have been a good candidate for them to throw some actual money at if this is their line of thinking.
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Apr 12, 2017 20:08
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In more heartening news, look at what's going on down-ballot in VA. In the 2015 election the Dems fielded candidates in about half the districts, just barely enough to win a majority if somehow all their people won. They of course lost horribly and only took 33 seats out of 100 member chamber. Now in 2017 they managed to recruit for all but 17 House Delegate districts and at the state level are aggressively targeting 17 seats that the GOP hold where Hillary got the most votes. It's a combination of targeting winnable seats but also spreading out enough resources that if someone drops the ball you're not totally screwed. It also gives you a lot of upside potential in a wave election. I too was freaking the gently caress out after November but the country hasn't totally collapsed, the Dems seem to be learning their lessons and things have set up really nicely for the 2017 and 2018 elections. Sure, Trump is president, but only for the next 3 years and the dude is even worse at the job than we thought and is going to be unable to do anything due to his incompetence. Things are looking good. It's okay to be happy, people. Maarek posted:Thompson's platform was basically a bunch of local political gripes and some vaguely populist rhetoric, so it seems like he would have been a good candidate for them to throw some actual money at if this is their line of thinking. Agreed, I think the $20k should have been provided as it's peanuts and engenders good will. You want to encourage people to run and funding little things like this gives folks confidence that if they stick their neck out and run in a hopeless situation they won't be left high and dry. That said, it was a single mistake and hopefully now that people realize what happened it won't be made again. Now if they gently caress up in MT-AL and leave them high and dry, then yes I'll be pissed.
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Apr 12, 2017 20:09
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Cerebral Bore posted:2006 worked pretty well because the 50-state strategy was sound, and this election indicates that Perez was bullshitting hard when he said he supported it. There's also every indication that the party leadership is falling back into its usual complacency, which bodes ill for 2018. Even if 2018 is a wave and the dems take the house they are still going to lose most districts like Kansas 4.
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Apr 12, 2017 20:10
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SSNeoman posted:"Please stop talking to rich allies and instead wave your hands to make america go Bernie's shad of blue" There's a big difference between someone expecting Perez to wave his hands and magically transform the political landscape, and expecting him to give even a modicum of support to this race. You do see that, right? Asking for a little more support shouldn't be deemed "expecting too much."
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Apr 12, 2017 20:10
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Majorian I'm gonna tell you straight up right now that I will not engage in seriousposting itt. Nobody here wants to talk about numbers or voting histories and instead would prefer to chase pie-in-the-sky solutions. And if I did bring up numbers I'll prob get WELL REMEMBER WHAT THEY SAID IN 2016???Majorian posted:There's a big difference between someone expecting Perez to wave his hands and magically transform the political landscape, and expecting him to give even a modicum of support to this race. You do see that, right? Asking for a little more support shouldn't be deemed "expecting too much." quote:Stop playing w/non-Dem Bernie and get to work electing progressives/liberals! You're taking her words hella charitably but ok
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Apr 12, 2017 20:11
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mcmagic posted:Even if 2018 is a wave and the dems take the house they are still going to lose most districts like Kansas 4. Clearly what happened with this one election tells us everything we need to know about Tom Perez forever.
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Apr 12, 2017 20:12
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SSNeoman posted:"Please stop talking to rich allies and instead wave your hands to make america go Bernie's shad of blue" she's calling bernie a fake dem... she's anti-bernie.... evilweasel posted:perhaps that is because you keep saying monumentally stupid things???????? except it doesn't answer the most important question of my post. why did they sink that much resources into one race and claim they were cash strapped for thompson? as i said, 20K should be a starter amount for any of our candidates at his level. why could ossof not take 8.1m, and quist and thompson get 100k each from the dnc?
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Apr 12, 2017 20:12
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mcmagic posted:I agree with this but that doesn't mean the ACA was handled well in 2009. It wasn't. They started negotiating from the GOP side of the field and that made the law worse and harder to defend. I won't dispute that had it actually been further left it would have been better and more popular. Where I diverge is generally if it could have passed. I view most of the problematic concessions as forced by the need to get all 60 Democrats in the Senate on board, not attempts to get GOP votes. We're just not really going to ever have a chance to find out if those Democratic senators could have been pushed a little bit farther with popular pressure or if that would have backfired so there's not really a good way we can resolve that dispute. The answer in the future, of course, is to blow up the filibuster rather than getting Democratic votes 51-60.
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Apr 12, 2017 20:12
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Majorian posted:There's a bit of a difference between that and NAFTA or TPP, wouldn't you agree? Not an important one, no. You know how NAFTA allowed midwestern farmers to sell corn and wheat to Mexico that put a bunch of Mexican farmers out of business? That's the trade policy he's advocating. He articulates it with the Trump "good deals" rhetoric. Kilroy posted:He came within 6% despite saying those progressive things in this R+30 district. You know I think you need to step up your excuse-making game - it's been really off lately. I guess now that centrists are safely in control of the party you don't think it's worth the effort anymore? He said those progressive things on Reddit but not to his electorate you dunce. quote:And where is this "oh Bernie Sanders put him in a choke hold that's why he said those things on Reddit for $900" coming from?
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Apr 12, 2017 20:12
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SSNeoman posted:Majorian I'm gonna tell you straight up right now that I will not engage in seriousposting itt. Nobody here wants to talk about numbers or voting histories and instead would prefer to chase pie-in-the-sky solutions. And if I did bring up numbers I'll prob get WELL REMEMBER WHAT THEY SAID IN 2016??? I'm up for talking about numbers and voting histories, and I've never been one for pie-in-the-sky solutions. I want the Dems to win in 2018 and 2020. I just think that the only way they're going to do that is by actually making an effort to speak to the needs of the working class again. I'm a Thomas Frank-type lefty.
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Apr 12, 2017 20:13
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Majorian posted:Delve into that a bit, please. Explain to me why what she's saying is unreasonable. It's just plain dumb to ignore the most popular political figure on the left in america if you're trying to be a left leaning party.
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Apr 12, 2017 20:13
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mcmagic posted:Even if 2018 is a wave and the dems take the house they are still going to lose most districts like Kansas 4. Dems are going to lose most deep-red districts? You don't say, what stunning insight. This doesn't mean that they shouldn't even try, as seen very recently.
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Apr 12, 2017 20:13
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mcmagic posted:Even if 2018 is a wave and the dems take the house they are still going to lose most districts like Kansas 4. Yeah. The Dems winning KS-4 implies they gain something hilarious like 125 seats. I mean, it'd be wonderful but it's actually an argument as for why you should target more "winnable" races. In a landslide nothing matters because you're going to win anyway. If it's close then winning those few extra marginal seats might be the difference between wins and losses. Kinda like how Trump's campaign team realized the only way they can win is somehow grabbing WI/MI/PA and campaigning to that effect while the Hillary team was doing vanity events in TX/GA/AZ when winning those states wouldn't do any good because once you win them you've already won the Presidency.
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Apr 12, 2017 20:14
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