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Does How to Read Donald Duck count? I used to own a copy, and deeply regret losing track of it during a move. One of the criticisms that stuck with me is the way Disney's comics were presented by the regime as a wholesome alternative to homegrown work which might have inconvenient political stances. fritz posted:Does Dave Sim's Cerebus count? (the message is "women are evil") Rangpur fucked around with this message at 12:29 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 12:22
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fritz posted:Does Dave Sim's Cerebus count? (the message is "women are evil") The last few years have taught us that "Women won't gently caress/date me, therefor..." is that start of a disturbing number of men's political lives, so yeah unfortunately. To anyone here who knows, was S'Sym from 80s New Mutants/X-Men stuff supposed to be a Dave Sim reference? Seems pretty obvious, but Claremont usually wasn't that level of petty. Then again, most other artists aren't Sim's level of human refuse.
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May 6, 2017 15:22
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rkajdi posted:To anyone here who knows, was S'Sym from 80s New Mutants/X-Men stuff supposed to be a Dave Sim reference? Seems pretty obvious, but Claremont usually wasn't that level of petty. Then again, most other artists aren't Sim's level of human refuse. It was a Dave Sim reference, yeah, the character's look is modelled after the Cerebus character (e.g. the vest). It could very well have been a positive reference, as Dave Sim was basically the great indie comic success story at the time. S'ym was a demon, yeah, but he was still a major character that wasn't really an object of ridicule.
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May 6, 2017 15:55
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Yeah, despite being a Demon S'ym wasn't intended to be a negative reference to Dave Sim as far as I'm aware.
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May 8, 2017 14:58
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Chris Claremont and Dave Sim were friendly throughout pretty much the entirety of the 1980s. There was long-ish serious talks about doing an X-Men/Cerebus crossover for years. Here's I guess some notes and stuff drawn up at a con for it. This downplays the length of time it was considered but it kept on cropping up in the letter pages of Cerebus for at least 2-3 years in the mid 1980s. Back in the early days of Cerebus Sim had a recurring character in Cerebus named Professor Charles X. Claremont that was a clearly affectionate parody of Claremont's melodramatic dialogue, and later had the Roach character transition from Moon Roach to Wolveroach which was again, a fairly gentle parody. I believe S'ym (who looks and talks like Cerebus) shows up in between those two bits. I'm 99% sure there are Cerebus stuffed animals in the background of some scene with either Kitty or the New Mutants when they're first introduced, too. Also worth noting in terms of this interaction, the Dave Sim timeline is basically this: 1977: Starts Cerebus 1979: Briefly institutionalized and first diagnosed(?) with schizophrenia, envisions Cerebus as his 300 Issue Life's Work 1985: Separates from Deni Loubert, first wife/co-publisher 1994: First (fictional in-universe) exploration of "Men are Creative Lights, Women Are Voids" [some time in here] his [wife/girlfriend] leaves him, the book gets a lot more negative towards women/romantic love in general 2001: "Tangent", Dave Sim's big personal 'yes I believe everything I'm putting in Cerebus' essay is published So while history may shine poorly on "people who were palling around with Dave Sim" you've got to remember he spent well over a decade just being That One Indie Guy With the Good Book, not the like He-Man Women Hating Rorschach character he has been in more recent years. All of his interplay with Marvel/Claremont took place back then.
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May 8, 2017 15:31
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Edge & Christian posted:Chris Claremont and Dave Sim were friendly throughout pretty much the entirety of the 1980s. There was long-ish serious talks about doing an X-Men/Cerebus crossover for years. Fair enough. I though his misogynistic turn was something that happened earlier, as in closer to when his wife GTFO'd. I could have been confusing Ms. Loubert with his later relationship. I thought about reading Cerebus, but a) who wants to read something that turns into Reddit halfway through, and b) I don't like giving creepers money-- also why some Alan Moore stuff is off the table.
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May 8, 2017 17:14
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The bad webcomic thread posted Roswell Texas about a seceded Texas becoming a perfectly functioning libertarian utopia fighting off gay english nazis. I think the writers other notable work was a Star Wars EU story of libertarian Han Solo selling poison to alien children because he could/free market whatever.
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May 8, 2017 23:33
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If webcomics are kosher for the discussion, there's a complete online adaptation of the libertarian novel The Probability Broach that kinda has to be seen to be believed. There's a lot on that site, actually. La Muse is weird as hell in a Robert Anton Wilson sense, but it's an easy enough read.
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May 9, 2017 01:15
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Uncle Wemus posted:The bad webcomic thread posted Roswell Texas about a seceded Texas becoming a perfectly functioning libertarian utopia fighting off gay english nazis. I think the writers other notable work was a Star Wars EU story of libertarian Han Solo selling poison to alien children because he could/free market whatever. Is that the comic where my avatar is from?
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May 9, 2017 09:32
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I wonder if I can find the write-up I did for a previous iteration of the Libertarian thread. My undergrad thesis was on independent comics, and one of the ones I looked at was an incredible porn comic from 1970 (It was called "Armageddon", apparently there were a couple sequels which sadly I didn't get a chance to read) which features an orgy scene full of dated political references cornholing each other, a description of public schooling as a greater evil than nuclear war, and the huge-dicked protagonist swinging a fireaxe imprinted with the words "13th Amendment" to kill a bunch of racist caricatures who want to rape the naked white woman sprawled on the ground clutching at his thigh. I think the antagonist was just named "Shithead"?
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May 10, 2017 22:10
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Speaking of libertarian comics, Irwin A Schiff used to make "educational" libertarian comics in what I would describe as the old Archie style. The whole 112-page comic "How An Economy Grows" is available online for free and it's flat out dumb from start to finish. It's like Flintstones, but worse. 
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May 10, 2017 22:55
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You know, it's been a while. I bet there are people who haven't heard of Liberality for All, starring cyborg freedom fighter Sean Hannity.
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May 10, 2017 23:05
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Wanderer posted:You know, it's been a while. I bet there are people who haven't heard of Liberality for All, starring cyborg freedom fighter Sean Hannity. I still love how G. Gordon "I organized the Watergate break-in" Liddy is unironically a member of the freedom fighters.
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May 10, 2017 23:12
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Dr. Hurt posted:I still love how G. Gordon "I organized the Watergate break-in" Liddy is unironically a member of the freedom fighters. At least Ollie North knows how a little something about contra operations!
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May 10, 2017 23:27
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Suleman posted:Speaking of libertarian comics, Irwin A Schiff used to make "educational" libertarian comics in what I would describe as the old Archie style. I like that it instantly uses 'hunger' as a reason why his friends need the net after using it as a reason he needed the net. As if...they have similar needs, and maybe helping others meet their basic, shared, needs would lead to a more productive cave-society in general?
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May 10, 2017 23:39
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Uncle Wemus posted:The bad webcomic thread posted Roswell Texas Wanderer posted:If webcomics are kosher for the discussion, there's a complete online adaptation of the libertarian novel The Probability Broach that kinda has to be seen to be believed. Same dude! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Neil_Smith
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May 11, 2017 00:43
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https://twitter.com/shallowbrigade/status/862351819024076800 laffooooo
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May 11, 2017 05:08
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Yknow, people always talk about separating the work from the author... But I've found that harder and harder to do as of late.
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May 11, 2017 11:43
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I haven't read the new Cap stuff but I have read a lot of bitching about the new Cap stuff and are people assuming the end game here is that Cap is a nazi forever and there isn't going to be a dramatic when he goes face turn and denounces fascism and punches the Foremost Nazi in the face?
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May 11, 2017 16:10
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zoux posted:I haven't read the new Cap stuff but I have read a lot of bitching about the new Cap stuff and are people assuming the end game here is that Cap is a nazi forever and there isn't going to be a dramatic when he goes face turn and denounces fascism and punches the Foremost Nazi in the face? Well the plot is apparently written by a nazi lover so
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May 11, 2017 16:28
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Like I said I haven't read it, but I'd be reaaaaaal surprised if Marvel, a company that has shown a commitment to expanding minority, women and other marginalized voices in recent years, would, with zero editorial oversight, allow one of its premiere IPs to be turned into a fascist forever.
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May 11, 2017 16:46
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zoux posted:I haven't read the new Cap stuff but I have read a lot of bitching about the new Cap stuff and are people assuming the end game here is that Cap is a nazi forever and there isn't going to be a dramatic when he goes face turn and denounces fascism and punches the Foremost Nazi in the face? e: Also some people just think that it's a bad story and that Nick Spencer is not a good writer.
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May 11, 2017 16:50
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irlZaphod posted:e: Also some people just think that it's a bad story and that Nick Spencer is not a good writer. Oh I buy that for sure and people are welcome to like or dislke whatever but there seems to be a trend to try to make subjective opinions into objective reality by saying that something isn't bad, it's problematic.
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May 11, 2017 16:56
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zoux posted:Like I said I haven't read it, but I'd be reaaaaaal surprised if Marvel, a company that has shown a commitment to expanding minority, women and other marginalized voices in recent years, would, with zero editorial oversight, allow one of its premiere IPs to be turned into a fascist forever. There are only a couple of "forevers" in superhero comics.
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May 11, 2017 16:58
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Speaking of sentiments regarding fascism, Pia Guerra, who drew Y: The Last Man, is now drawing political cartoons and she's killing it.
zoux fucked around with this message at 19:48 on May 11, 2017 |
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May 11, 2017 19:43
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Is the name spencer cursed or something
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May 11, 2017 23:20
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Samovar posted:Yknow, people always talk about separating the work from the author... But I've found that harder and harder to do as of late. That was probably easier to do when the sum total of your knowledge about the author came from a one-paragraph blurb on the back of the book, if that. Now you can open a browser tab and in ten minutes, discover things about an author that almost force you to radically reevaluate his or her work. (Non-political example: I'm a big fan of the Spenser series of detective novels, but didn't know until relatively recently that the protagonist is very much a fictionalized representation of the original author, who shares the same hobbies, military experience, ancestry, and general build. I would have had no way of knowing that before the Internet.) On the other hand, some of the real winners of yesteryear have never been shy about letting you know all about their terrible opinions. Bill Willingham used to rant his rear end off on the inside back cover of Elementals.
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May 12, 2017 01:06
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zoux posted:Oh I buy that for sure and people are welcome to like or dislke whatever but there seems to be a trend to try to make subjective opinions into objective reality by saying that something isn't bad, it's problematic. What? People are saying it's bad. It's a bad story, poorly written, that also is loving insanely insensitive and stupid.
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May 12, 2017 01:26
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zoux posted:Like I said I haven't read it, but I'd be reaaaaaal surprised if Marvel, a company that has shown a commitment to expanding minority, women and other marginalized voices in recent years, would, with zero editorial oversight, allow one of its premiere IPs to be turned into a fascist forever. Is this the same Marvel that had to hastily retract a statement made by one of their higher-ups that sales were in a slump because people were tired of female characters and diversity?
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May 12, 2017 02:59
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and I know you can't judge a company's entire ethos by their top rank's personal views and all but the head of Marvel IS a big Trump buddy and goes to events with him and poo poo.
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May 12, 2017 04:19
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Wanderer posted:That was probably easier to do when the sum total of your knowledge about the author came from a one-paragraph blurb on the back of the book, if that. The internet is both the best and worst thing. It's this wonderful tool for communication and information but if it's taught us anything, it's that people we look up to and admire are no different than anybody else. They gently caress up just as much as we do, and it's worse because everyone is watching them.
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May 12, 2017 05:28
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I liked when Captain Falconmerica beat the poo poo out of some rednecks hunting Mexicans on the border.
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May 12, 2017 08:43
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Making Captain America a Nazi is really dumb and shits all over what the character is about. If anything, it shows that Marvel has no respect for the characters they own or the fans of said characters. It might be the worst gimmicky character change they have ever done, and this is a company that has been doing terrible things to Spider-Man since the 90's. I know this is a huge can of worms and I'm gonna get a lot of poo poo from bringing it up, but believe it or not, Jane Foster Thor is the same kind of thing, because now the original Thor is unworthy and everyone in the book is going on about how great Jane Foster is and how she's the best Thor ever. It doesn't bother me that Thor is a woman, it just sucks that they have to poo poo all over the original Thor and have the new one be a Mary Sue who goes on tirades about politics. If they wanted Thor to be a woman, they should have just made him a woman. I mean, Loki's been a lady before, why not Thor? Just treat your characters and readers with a little respect. People get mad when you poo poo on them. I kinda feel like a thing that both comic books and professional wrestling have in common is that their creative staff have an adversarial relationship with their fans and sometimes purposefully go out of their way to spite them. Jedi posted:The internet is both the best and worst thing. It's this wonderful tool for communication and information but if it's taught us anything, it's that people we look up to and admire are no different than anybody else. They gently caress up just as much as we do, and it's worse because everyone is watching them. Giving people twitter was the worst thing to happen. It was better when comic book writers, fans and journalists didn't get into bitter, angry arguments on twitter.
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May 12, 2017 16:20
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Jedi posted:The internet is both the best and worst thing. It's this wonderful tool for communication and information but if it's taught us anything, it's that people we look up to and admire are no different than anybody else. They gently caress up just as much as we do, and it's worse because everyone is watching them. "Never meet your heroes"
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May 12, 2017 16:39
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Gammatron 64 posted:It was better when comic book writers, fans and journalists didn't get into bitter, angry arguments on twitter.
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May 12, 2017 17:08
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Gammatron 64 posted:I know this is a huge can of worms and I'm gonna get a lot of poo poo from bringing it up, but believe it or not, Jane Foster Thor is the same kind of thing, because now the original Thor is unworthy and everyone in the book is going on about how great Jane Foster is and how she's the best Thor ever. It doesn't bother me that Thor is a woman, it just sucks that they have to poo poo all over the original Thor and have the new one be a Mary Sue who goes on tirades about politics. If they wanted Thor to be a woman, they should have just made him a woman. I mean, Loki's been a lady before, why not Thor? Jane Foster rules and if you're not reading the comics anyway I don't know how much room you have to evaluate her characterization or the quality of the writing in the book. Furthermore, the original Thor is still appearing in comics and is still doing cool stuff consistent with his characterization under Jason Aaron's entire run-- he very evidently has tremendous affection for both characters and is just as evidently telling a very long-game story. Secondly, in the interest of fairness I looked at your post history to confirm that you're the person who said they hadn't read comics in a while, and look, you're a giant transphobe who's egregiously cavalier about what constitutes abuse and uses "retard" as a pejorative in 2017, so I don't really care what you think about who's a nazi and who's not.
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May 12, 2017 17:53
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That dude obviously hasn't read the actual comics, because at no point in Jason Aaron's Thor or The Mighty Thor or even Unworthy Thor does any of that stuff happen.
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May 12, 2017 17:56
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irlZaphod posted:Maybe this wouldn't happen if comic book fans didn't have some weird sense of entitlement about Big Two characters and didn't feel that comic book publishers were "making GBS threads on them" for doing particular stories. People who define themselves by the media they consume really take poo poo personally.
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May 12, 2017 17:59
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Archyduke posted:Secondly, in the interest of fairness I looked at your post history to confirm that you're the person who said they hadn't read comics in a while, and look, you're a giant transphobe who's egregiously cavalier about what constitutes abuse and uses "retard" as a pejorative in 2017, so I don't really care what you think about who's a nazi and who's not. lol hail hydra
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May 12, 2017 18:47
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More Pia Guerra. This couldn't be more Real Life Politics in Comics.
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May 12, 2017 20:34
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