Real Life Politics in Comics

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NikkolasKing: Apr 3, 2010

So a little while ago I wandered into the Libertarian thread in D&D and saw they were talking about Libertarian fiction. A lot of it was about sci-fi lit but then it moved on to comics, specifically they discussed if Batman was a Libertarian fantasy. Now, as I'm sure we're all aware, there are so many "Batmen" out there that it be pretty impossible to label him as anything. But I found the general idea interesting and I was encouraged to start this thread. I have no idea if it will go anywhere but what's the harm in trying?

I did hold off on going through with it until I said I was gonna check out The Dark Knight Returns and was told about Frank Miller's right wing politics. I also was watching a video with Linkara from AT4W where he mentioned "Holy Terror." I guess what I'm saying is I didn't want to make a thread about abstract interpretations - I didn't know if that would go anywhere or have any interest. But some comics have plain as day politics which you can further support by looking at their writer. I was hoping something more concrete like that would make this thread generate some serious replies.

So, yeah. What comics have very forward political messages and what are those messages?

# ¿ Apr 14, 2017 19:32

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 09:36

NikkolasKing: Apr 3, 2010

Lightning Lord posted:

Are you asking what comics are specifically political, as in they're basically illustrated manifestos or which ones display the writer's politics in a totally unambiguous way, perhaps even inorganically? Or both?

Both work since I'd like to hear about either or. I haven't read many comics I could describe as political, which is why I made this thread to try and learn. I hear V For Vendetta is a good example of a writer being fully transparent with his politics

# ¿ Apr 14, 2017 20:05

NikkolasKing: Apr 3, 2010

Lightning Lord posted:

Also speaking of Alan Moore and politics you might be interested in Brought to Light, which with Bill Sienkiewicz is a circa 1988 history of the CIA and their foreign interventions.

Wow, I've never heard of this and Cold War American dickery has always been something I had an interest in. Thank you.

# ¿ Apr 15, 2017 18:40

NikkolasKing: Apr 3, 2010

Neurosis posted:

Do read DKR, it's deservedly a classic, whatever the politics involved.

I don't mind disagreeable politics in my fiction so long as the fiction itself is enjoyable. So I definitely will check out DKR once I have some money to spend.

Lonos Oboe posted:

It's funny, No Hero, Supergods and to an extent Black Summer all felt more like horror books to me. I suppose a lot of Ellis' work can fall into that. Supergods certainly suffers from an overabundance of ideas and not enough time/ issues to fill it out. The main thrust of that comic seems more about theology/ philosophy than politics. The concept of humans trying to create gods to impose a God upon the universe. That self destructive urge given form. The most Warren Ellis feeling line in that book is the mushroom god made from the astronauts talking to the main character and telling him that religion is humanity's addiction It's "stash" I agree with a lot of the posts about Black Summer. It's a mish-mash of ideas rolled into one. As for No-Hero, I feel that one was a bit anti-climactic and not left to cook long enough. I did like the idea of all the super heros being hosed up on drugs or borderline psyche cases and the weird transformation scene was incredible. I would love a print of that to never hang up.

Ironically, one of the more controversial moments of politics in comics in my experience is one that a lot of people outside of my home country may dismiss. In Preacher when they flashback to Cassidy fighting in the Easter Rebellion of 1916 in Dublin, Ireland.

Now, in Ireland, there is a huge deal made of that rebellion and last year there was a huge centennial celebration made about it. To cut a long story short, The Irish insurgents (It's what I call them because that's what they were) who were rebelling against English rule launched a botched operation to seize key buildings and took over a few places in the city like the post office, Dublin Castle and a few others. It was a complete mess as some of the rebel command did not know it was going ahead. After a lot of hassle, the English came up the Liffey river in Dublin and shelled the ever living gently caress out of the outnumbered boys in there. (I am really simplifying poo poo here) Many survivors were shot by the British in the aftermath by firing squad and this caused a huge amount of support for the rebels and led to the eventual formation of the Republic after more misery and bloodshed.

Now, when I was being brought up, most people were related to someone in the IRA. Michael Collins was like a god to some people and all the people who led the rising like Pearse and Connolly were like Washington or Grant in the States. Great patriots, idolised. I had extended family involved in the rising and after. And I inherited a lack of glorification of the men who liberated Ireland. It's a complex moral issue and not as simple as most people make it.

To get to my point. Garth Ennis who wrote Preacher in case you never guessed is Irish and lived up North which is still British owned and suffered horrific violence for decades very much like Ennis describes. He references the troubles a lot, but in my opinion the most controversial is when Cassidy's brother kicks Michael Collins in the balls and basically denounces the leaders of the Irish revolutionaries going as far as saying they are the ones who should be shot. Now, he is kinda preempting history here as it's argued that Pearse wanted martyrs for the rising to get behind. But for Ennis to come right out and say that, especially in the early 90's when blood was still being spilled over the issue is a very controversial thing to do. Whatever about Ennis' schoolboy attitude towards most things, this was fairly strong stuff. There is an unpopular argument (which I think Ennis is getting towards) is that the rebellion should not have happened at all. Ireland was going to get home rule anyway and that could have paved the way to a peaceful split. It has caused many a heated discussion over drinks.

I've never liked Ennis and now I really don't like him. Thank you for the info, though. I'm kind of surprised I've never heard of this before. I have heard a lot about Preacher over the years.

@Comic Writers making GBS threads on Thatcher

Are there any Conservative comic writers besides Miller and Dixon? A post in the DC Comics thread got me thinking about stufff I had heard about Dixon so I went to investigate.
https://www.inverse.com/article/22361-spider-gwen-miles-morales-romance-marvel-hook-up-comics

"Clinton Cash" certainly sounds like it fits this thread.

But are Miller and Dixon alone? We all know Fox News and their assorted assholes love to rant on about how the liberals control everything but it does seem to me like comic books might indeed be a predominantly liberal or Left Wing industry.

NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Apr 18, 2017

# ¿ Apr 18, 2017 04:02

NikkolasKing: Apr 3, 2010

Zachack posted:

I'll add to keep in mind the era that Miller wrote DKR (and later, Martha Washington) in.

The Regan years? Was DKR a response to the Reagan Revolution like the aforementioned British writers were responding to Thatcherism?

# ¿ Apr 18, 2017 05:26

NikkolasKing: Apr 3, 2010

Did anyone read JMS' Supreme Power series? It had a fair mount of the US Government is Evil in it but I'm not sure if that was actually supposed to be a political statement or if it was just a mechanic for subverting the Superman ideal.

Supreme Power was one of the first comics I ever read and it holds a special place in my heart. Volume 1, anyway.

# ¿ Apr 23, 2017 03:32

NikkolasKing: Apr 3, 2010

zoux posted:

Lurdiak made a really good post about Ditko/objectivism in the Politoons thread in D&D and I wanted to share it here.

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3803673&perpage=40&pagenumber=388#post472028431

Thank you for sharing this. Very interesting.

# ¿ May 5, 2017 16:11

NikkolasKing: Apr 3, 2010

Lonos Oboe posted:

I just know I find my Sin City collection harder to read nowadays because it's more dificult to write them off as trashy, self aware pulp.

Miller seems like a pretty self-aware guy. He just doesn't really care about what others think of him. But the interviews I read with him in he book about him showed he's aware of, say, how psychotic his Batman is. or that Leonidas was absolutely no hero.

I'm generally against trying to psychoanalyze a writer based on their work. That's why I made this thread, really. No interpretations here or theories based just on the writing. I wanted plain text with hopefully some actual quotes from the writer. I think a lot of people get carried away thinking they know a writer's beliefs/personality based solely on a work of fiction and that's just kinda dumb in my view.

# ¿ May 17, 2017 06:14

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 09:36

NikkolasKing: Apr 3, 2010

Alhazred posted:

Miller absolutely believes that Leonidas was a hero:
Five issues and 130 pages later, Miller has immersed himself into what may become one of his greatest works. �Looking at the project (from an artist�s per- spective),� Miller admits, �300 has a real wide-screen feel to it, because it�s a story composed across double page spreads. It�s been a real challenge for me to depict a story with such incredible scope. But as a writer, 300 has challenged me even more so, because of it�s pure, unadulterated heroism. There is nothing cynical about this story, and there�s nothing temporary about it.

Hm, fair enough. Thanks for the quote. I was mainly going by what was in the book I was reading:

quote:

Back in 1998, discussing 300 with Christopher Brayshaw in the Comics Journal, Miller acknowledges the historical irony of Greece, the epitome of civil organization and intellectualism in the ancient West, needing a nation-state of cold-blooded warriors to fight its battles. In another context, he tells Brayshaw, he might have invited readers to ponder that irony and consider its paradoxical relationship to the development of democratic ideals.19 He does not do so in this context, however. For Miller, 300 is all about the necessity of saving civilization�Western civilization�from barbarism. The three hundred Spartans did what was necessary; they lost the battle, badly, but without their sacrifice, discipline, and utterly unambiguous worldview, we would apparently still be living in mud huts today.

Even with 300, though, Miller argues that he�s playing around just a tiny bit with our tendency to collapse heroes with role models. Miller makes Leonidas admirable but not likable and renders most of the other 299 Spartans as less admirable and even less likable. But maybe, Miller has said not only about the Spartans but about the Punisher, Batman, and Superman, cultures need guys like that, and I do mean guys�the reckless male narcissists who can�t or won�t make subtle distinctions between good and evil�to do the dirty work of �preserving civilization as we know it.� Usually, as in The Dark Knight Returns and The Dark Knight Strikes Again! and to a certain extent the noir riff on Dante�s Inferno that is Sin City, Miller lets us sit with that ugly possibility, lets us squirm at our own enjoyment and/or disgust. He forces us to wonder if peace and forward movement are ever possible without the bright lines between good and evil and at the same time makes us ponder whether by drawing those lines, we put our humanity at risk. The generous way to interpret what Miller says here is that, like Hitchcock, he�s casting doubt on the very notion of heroism that rules superhero comics, that is, the fantasy that superheroes could do what they do and yet remain �ordinary� people. Miller turned Batman into a living symbol of the fear that criminals should feel when threatened by �good,� at least in a Platonist universe, but don�t. However, when it�s no longer comics, the First Amendment, or aesthetic complexity at stake but national security, take-no-prisoners tactics�in art as well as war�look to Miller like the only way to go.

# ¿ May 18, 2017 17:40

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > BSS: Bisexual Super Son > Real Life Politics in Comics