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It's funny, No Hero, Supergods and to an extent Black Summer all felt more like horror books to me. I suppose a lot of Ellis' work can fall into that. Supergods certainly suffers from an overabundance of ideas and not enough time/ issues to fill it out. The main thrust of that comic seems more about theology/ philosophy than politics. The concept of humans trying to create gods to impose a God upon the universe. That self destructive urge given form. The most Warren Ellis feeling line in that book is the mushroom god made from the astronauts talking to the main character and telling him that religion is humanity's addiction It's "stash" I agree with a lot of the posts about Black Summer. It's a mish-mash of ideas rolled into one. As for No-Hero, I feel that one was a bit anti-climactic and not left to cook long enough. I did like the idea of all the super heros being hosed up on drugs or borderline psyche cases and the weird transformation scene was incredible. I would love a print of that to never hang up. Ironically, one of the more controversial moments of politics in comics in my experience is one that a lot of people outside of my home country may dismiss. In Preacher when they flashback to Cassidy fighting in the Easter Rebellion of 1916 in Dublin, Ireland. Now, in Ireland, there is a huge deal made of that rebellion and last year there was a huge centennial celebration made about it. To cut a long story short, The Irish insurgents (It's what I call them because that's what they were) who were rebelling against English rule launched a botched operation to seize key buildings and took over a few places in the city like the post office, Dublin Castle and a few others. It was a complete mess as some of the rebel command did not know it was going ahead. After a lot of hassle, the English came up the Liffey river in Dublin and shelled the ever living gently caress out of the outnumbered boys in there. (I am really simplifying poo poo here) Many survivors were shot by the British in the aftermath by firing squad and this caused a huge amount of support for the rebels and led to the eventual formation of the Republic after more misery and bloodshed. Now, when I was being brought up, most people were related to someone in the IRA. Michael Collins was like a god to some people and all the people who led the rising like Pearse and Connolly were like Washington or Grant in the States. Great patriots, idolised. I had extended family involved in the rising and after. And I inherited a lack of glorification of the men who liberated Ireland. It's a complex moral issue and not as simple as most people make it. To get to my point. Garth Ennis who wrote Preacher in case you never guessed is Irish and lived up North which is still British owned and suffered horrific violence for decades very much like Ennis describes. He references the troubles a lot, but in my opinion the most controversial is when Cassidy's brother kicks Michael Collins in the balls and basically denounces the leaders of the Irish revolutionaries going as far as saying they are the ones who should be shot. Now, he is kinda preempting history here as it's argued that Pearse wanted martyrs for the rising to get behind. But for Ennis to come right out and say that, especially in the early 90's when blood was still being spilled over the issue is a very controversial thing to do. Whatever about Ennis' schoolboy attitude towards most things, this was fairly strong stuff. There is an unpopular argument (which I think Ennis is getting towards) is that the rebellion should not have happened at all. Ireland was going to get home rule anyway and that could have paved the way to a peaceful split. It has caused many a heated discussion over drinks.
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Apr 18, 2017 01:07
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Looking over my comics shelf, it's hard to pick out anything really political aside from the 80's Thatcher stuff. Most of it is more along the lines of social commentary. Even Ex Machina (which is ostensibly a comic about a politician super-hero) can be lighter than an episode of The West Wing. DMZ (New York is ground zero for a second American civil war.) Is more about the people that drive political ideas rather than the ideas themselves. I was always curious about Scalped How accurate is the stuff in that? I can imagine a lot of the details are right, like the high level of diabetes and alcoholism mixed with poverty. But is the crime level high on a reservation? I would be very interested to read a book on the modern native American struggle if there are any recommendations. I do remember reading that Israel bit in Fables though. I had borrowed the series off of a friend of mine and was powering through them. I had picked up on the Jewish diaspora thing and I had heard the writer was controversial but could not remember why. That Israel comment felt so jarring and out of character. It really soured the book for me. It was less about the political statement (which was beyond simplistic) and more that it was really the writer waving at the audience saying:  For me, one of the consistently great comics when it comes to politics and social issues is Judge Dredd when he is written by John Wagner. Over the last 40 odd years the comic has been a dark mirror of what has been happening. There are many Dredd stories where the innocent suffer because of the whims of the faceless justice system. Since 9/11 the commentary has gotten a lot more real with civil rights being almost non existent in Mega City One. There are literally hundreds of cutting jabs at the establishment, all the way from Thatcher & Reagan to Blair & Bush and on. A fantastic example is a storyline called Total War. (It's available in trade) A group of pro-democracy terrorists plant nuclear bombs all over Mega-City One and it's a race against time for Dredd to stop them. He spies, tortures, manipulates, bullies and kills his way through. Dredd is the good guy and arguably the bad guys deserve it. For me, this panel from a previous issue sums up the subtle beauty of Dredd where one person who reads it can see Jack Bauer and someone else could see it differently:  It's probably one of my favorite Dredd panels because it hides it's irony so well. fritz posted:I think the only Ennis I've read is Hitman, which had an arc where British special forces were going after the mc and everybody in Gotham City was freaking out over how competent and dangerous they were. I always had a soft spot for Ennis. maybe it's because he represents Irish people in comics. His issue of Hellblazer where John goes on a pub crawl around Dublin with the ghost of his friend was so accurately drawn. Having drank in all those pubs it felt very real. His issue of The Boys about St. Paddy's day was another one. It's rare you see something in popular culture as an Irish person that captures that exact feeling. Granted, it's all either about alcohol or the troubles in Northern Ireland. But we take what we can get.
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Apr 18, 2017 14:23
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Here is another Fables bit that really loving bugged me by Bill Willingham. from Fables #100  You may argue that this is the way the world is (if you're a oval office) or you can say that this is from the perspective of Snow White who grew up in a medieval fantasy setting and not the writer. (She is portrayed as one of the more heroic and morally pure characters who is very well respected in the community for her intelligence and judgements. Which undermines the whole loving character when she starts talking like a Scott Adams Twitter post or Christina Hendricks from Mad Men) Those are pretty much your only two possible justifications for that kind of behavior. Now sure the nurse goes away and does something nasty. But if I was treated like that, you loving bet I would too. There are diplomatic ways of telling someone that they are constantly being an arsehole. Maybe ask why they feel they need to behave that way and she starts saying it's because she feels insecure about her looks, she can explain that people are judged more strongly for their good actions then their looks and people will like her if she is nice. I mean, they are immortal, magical beings. Maybe go on weight watchers and ask the nurse if she wants to go jogging in the loving mornings. For gently caress's sake. Even if she has to stay fat for magic reasons, there are loving trolls and literal pigs who are people's best friends. I had heard that some people though that Fables was a kind of female centred book, if not feminist. I don't know who the gently caress came up with that nonsense. Don't get me wrong, there are some really great female characters in it. But, most are defined by their men and their relationships with them and in some cases just drop out of the book when they start having kids. I don't know about anyone else, but it felt really dodgy reading that part. Something like that is too fully realised to not be the opinion of the writer. (Who is by all accounts, a cock) Lonos Oboe fucked around with this message at 00:39 on May 16, 2017 |
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May 16, 2017 00:36
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The whole "Death Of The Artist" thing is a hard one to argue. Everyone's moral spectrum is different and I don't think that paying money to someone whose opinions you disagree with is immoral (not that anyone here said it was) I do feel however, that if you really do strongly disagree with someone's views, chances are their writing won't appeal to you anyway. I picked up Ender's game, Speaker for the Dead and Xenocide as part of a bundle years ago. I had heard great things about Ender's game and knew very little. I have to admit the "twist" of the book hit me a lot better as I assumed the other two books in the trilogy followed the plot directly. I enjoyed Ender's Game well enough, even though I had some problems with some of the ideas in the book. Without going into detail, I was the perfect demographic for that book. However, while the book paints Ender as this Christ-like figure who can do no wrong because his heart is pure no matter what actions he takes and everyone else is wrong and he is always right. I found reality to be so much different and found it hard to buy into it. I was very compelled to relate to him though. At surface, I felt Ender was a lot like me when I was a kid. (The way people identify with Harry Potter or that woman from Fifty Shades of Grey who likes being psychologically abused when she thinks she is only being physically abused.) But I could never make that leap. Speaker for the Dead cemented what felt wrong about Ender's Game. Others could explain it better. But the stark, wooden way people express themselves was totally off. It was fine in the first book as I had considered it a book for adolescents. (Hoo boy, was I wrong) Ender came across more like a creepy priest and the way he marries some woman felt more like "taking a wife" instead of falling in love. I muddled through and when I finally started Xenocide I could not take the self satisfied condescending attitude. Mostly the idea that people of lesser intelligence have no value. It was only later I found out that OSC was in reality, a cock. My point is that the idea of giving money to an author whose views or belief's you disagree with of usually moot. Because more often than not it will not be work you will relate to. If I read Ender's Game for the first time today knowing in advance how the author thinks, it would completely color my perspective on the book and I would judge it harshly. (As I do now) Someone mentioned Alan Moore and that is a similar point. Sure, he is a bit weird and a creep. But reading his work knowing his points of view on authority and society help you understand works like Watchmen and V for Vendetta. If you are opposed to his personal politics, then chances are you will not like his work. It's not a hard and fast rule, but it's worth keeping in mind. I just know I find my Sin City collection harder to read nowadays because it's more dificult to write them off as trashy, self aware pulp. Likewise with Phillip K. Dick. Knowing the guy had a obscenely hosed up upbringing, was often homeless, was mostly off his head on drugs and was married 5 times can help you from judging him on some of his points of view or opinions because you know he comes from a very unique place and his perspective is probably worth hearing even if you don't subscribe to it. I really think that is the balance. I am not casting judgments on anyone for thinking either way. But think about it, when you do start judging an author, can you still enjoy their work? Also, at the risk of turning this thread into Ender's Game discussion, here is a fantastic essay about it written By John Kessel. http://johnjosephkessel.wixsite.com/kessel-website/creating-the-innocent-killer
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May 17, 2017 01:06
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The comic adaptation of 'Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep' is pretty well realised. It's basically the book including huge chunks of the prose. As a comic, it's a slow and kinda slogging read, but it captures that feeling of loneliness and paranoia alongside the weird co-dependent relationships that pepper Dick's work. So in that regard I would say Dick is fair game. The art is not really my cup of tea but it gets the job done. You can get it in a big 24 issue hardcover that is currently breaking my shelf next to my hardcover editions of The Incal and Metabarons. (AKA the most metal comic in existence.) I posted a few pages below as the style is something you have to warm to.    
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May 17, 2017 03:06
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rkajdi posted:Moore is almost a special case here. I'm the one who mentioned him, and it's honestly not his politics that I find off putting. He wrote Lost Girls, which can be best described as a very lovingly designed book of child pornography. I have a general rule about only hoping the worst things happen to child pornographers and pedos, and I don't see this as a particularly political stance. Recent offline conversations have somewhat disabused me of this, unfortunately. I never read lost girls. But I find it hard to believe that he was writing it out of thoughts or gratification. It's more based on Moore's previous writing. He never shied away from pedophiles in his work and the only time I can recall where he did not portray it in a serious light. (Like V for Vendetta or Watchmen) was in The League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen where the Invisible Man is raping young girls/women. From panel one of that section it's OTT and comes across like a Carry On film or an old Bluesie comic strip, clashing with the real world. Same with the "Yellow Peril" section. I certainly don't agree with a lot of his politics or even like all his writing. But he strikes me as a guy whose views are worth hearing I am not saying he is not a pedo freak. I just find it hard to believe based on what I have seen. He has certainly gone a bit crazy recently. Here is an interview from the early 2000's with Stewart Lee where he comes across as a really sound guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6wg4f_XAYA NikkolasKing posted:Miller seems like a pretty self-aware guy. He just doesn't really care about what others think of him. But the interviews I read with him in he book about him showed he's aware of, say, how psychotic his Batman is. or that Leonidas was absolutely no hero. Frank Miller posted:“For the first time in my life I know how it feels to face an existential menace. They want us to die. All of a sudden I realize what my parents were talking about all those years,” I am cherry picking some quotes there. Miller certainly is not the worst of them. But some of those quotes would not sound out of place coming out of Marv or Batman. I can certainly enjoy a shclocky pulpy writer even if their content is a bit dodgy. (As mentioned above about Alan Moore)But since 9/11 it feels like the irony is gone from Miller's work. As a history buff (and someone who enjoys beautiful comics) I enjoyed 300. But if you listen closely you can really hear the author's voice. He admires the Spartans and does disservice to history by not showing things like them declaring war on their slaves every year or the fact that they shaved the heads of the brides so men would not be freaked out by banging something with long hair. I am not saying you need to show all that in detail. Just that he showed exactly what he needed to, to express his personal bias. They are only shown in a heroic light. I am not trying to poo poo on Miller or analyze him. All I am saying is that I can get why people find him distasteful.
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May 17, 2017 17:20
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Archyduke posted:Right, I don't like Lost Girls much-- actually I think it's profoundly stupid-- but he's obviously saying something pretty thoroughly worked-out about the ideology of the construction of childhood and of sexuality in the 19th/early 20th c. (granted, like a lot of what he's concluded about that period I think he's off the mark, and really like a lot of what he says about sexuality I think he's not half as progressive as he thinks he is) and not just giving people something to jerk off about. It's like saying Salo is only for scat fetishists. Being willing to discuss adolescent sexuality does not make a person a pedo or a pornographer. But it seems like it's something that can't really be discussed without people jumping in with their own personal axes to grind. (Not referring to you) He wrote this book about women discussing their past sexual experiences as teens and was instantly villfied by some for writing about a subject matter that made some people uncomfortable. Now you could argue that the way it's portrayed in the comic is designed to arouse. As I said, I have not read it. But I did read From Hell which is a graphic novel absolutely filled with people loving drawn in great detail. None of it felt arousing and it mostly served to tell us about these characters and their depressing filthy lives. It was masterfully done in my opinion. (Mostly down to the artist.) That goes a long way to convincing me Alan Moore did not write it to get people off. The argument that he is writing lovely pretentious bullshit is kinda moot. As long as what he writes is not something that is promoting loving kids. (Which was decided it was not in the UK by a panel who actually sat down and read it to decide if it was child porn.) The Salo point is an interesting one. The fact that some critics of the film considered it as pornography is kind of hosed up as it makes me wonder how they perceive tortured sexually abused naked women eating poo poo before being burned alive. It reminds me of when Victoria Beckham kissed her daughter of the lips and everyone was grossed out because they thought it was sexual. Are the people who think there is something wrong with that getting horny when they kiss their kids? Because even though it is a film filled with sex and fetish and depravity, it is not a titillating film nor portrayed as such. It's not pornographic in the sense that it is setting out to arouse an audience. Now if some guy gets turned on by folks eating poo poo and being raped and tortured and burned alive then that is in no way the writers fault. Although gently caress knows, maybe Paolo Pasolini wants people jerking off to his movie. It proves his point. gently caress, that's more than I ever want to get into defending that kind of poo poo. It's a fine line between Takashi Miike and the dude who made the Human Centipede movies. I personally don't think anyone really needs to watch Salo. Reading plot on Wikipedia gets the point across enough IMO. And if I saw it in someones dvd collection I would have to wonder why exactly they have it. It's not like you get it as part of a 5 for $20 deal.
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May 18, 2017 02:15
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zoux posted:Well, educate me my friend. Me too, I kinda skimmed through the first issue and know a little about the writer's background from this thread, but I too would appreciate a good overview. I have been out of the loop since Bucky took over for cap. I heard that Steve came back to life but decided not to be Cap any more. So was the idea that this was THE Steve Rogers and not a clone. Crazy changes to continuity have worked well in the past. Superior Spider-Man was way more fun than it had any right to be. But I can't imagine how they pulled this one off, even with a great writer. It would make a great "What If " story but it sounds like it was a cluster gently caress. Considering what I have heard about the writer. I would be very interested to get the key points that pissed people off. Lonos Oboe fucked around with this message at 16:11 on May 18, 2017 |
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May 18, 2017 16:09
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Even ignoring all of the history side of things, it's just bad storytelling to have such a one dimensional villain especially when the hero is pretty one dimensional. That's why Punisher and Dredd comics can be so good. I love 300 because of it's simplicity. But a page explaining a litte about Xerxes history would have been great. Or even his Pop Darius I. I always liked this story about his rise to power from Herodotus. him and his brothers are competing for the crown (I nabbed it from Wikipedia, because it's a cool story. Darius I was a much more interesting character)Herodotus via Wikipedia posted:To decide who would become the monarch, six of them decided on a test, with Otanes abstaining, as he had no interest in being king. They were to gather outside the palace, mounted on their horses at sunrise, and the man whose horse neighed first in recognition of the rising sun would become king. According to Herodotus, Darius had a slave, Oebares, who rubbed his hand over the genitals of a mare that Darius favored. When the six gathered, Oebares placed his hands beside the nostrils of Darius's horse, who became excited at the scent and neighed. This was followed by lightning and thunder, leading the others to dismount and kneel before Darius in recognition of his apparent divine providence. In this account, Darius himself favored that he achieved the throne not through fraud, but cunning, even erecting a statue of himself mounted on his neighing horse with the inscription: "Darius, son of Hystaspes, obtained the sovereignty of Persia by the sagacity of his horse and the ingenious contrivance of Oebares, his groom." Thanks Edge & Christian for the lowdown on Cap. I was kinda hopeful it would be like Superior Spider-Man which was much better than I expected it to be. I read up on the reactions to certain things like Hydra/Nazi Cap lifting Mjolnir aka: "2017's must have prison tat" and folks being asked to wear Hydra gear in comic shops. Part of me wants to say they are over reacting. But considering the current political climate and especially the writer's history. I think it's understandable why some people are concerned. It's rare to discuss this kind of thing with people who actually have intelligence and knowledge and there is a ton of great stuff to talk about. It feels to me like you can draw a line between the early 2000's (specifically 9/11) and before more than you can any other time in comic book history. There are other factors I am sure must have contributed. Everything from the emergence of easy internet and digital printing to more independent publishers. But you read a comic made in the last 20 odd years and you can usually tell without looking at the date. I was re-reading some old Spider-Man comics and you feel the change very quickly reading them all at once. Especially when M.J Straczynski takes over. To start it off, Lets take Mark Miller. Probably the writer singly most responsible for the current perception of comic books in popular culture. If you consider the comics that have massively shaped the MCU. It's works like Civil War and Ultimates both written mostly by Mark Miller. Add to that his run on Warren Ellis' Authority, Which was primarily about the idea of a Justice League style group of heros trying to solve world problems by murdering dictators and doing press interviews where they discussed politics. Not that the comic hit pop culture hard. But it was a testing ground for his politically aware heros. (I know he did not have a long run on Authority, but his stories stand out) More than anyone else he really tried to connect super heros with the man on the street. Kick rear end is the most obvious example of this. But Miller has always had this layer of cynicism that many felt was out of place in the aw shucks world of comics. (The Kick rear end and Wanted comics feature a LOT more rape than the movies) I suppose what I would like to know is people's general opinions on Miller. For the sake of argument I think it's worth separating what you think about his actual writing versus his politics. (Feel free to virtue signal all you want. It's an open discussion) I would also encourage opinions on people like Straczynski and Bendis. Arguably two of the other people having a huge effect on the MCU. Anyone really whose personal views helped shape the stuff we are seeing on screen now basically. Lonos Oboe fucked around with this message at 21:12 on May 19, 2017 |
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May 19, 2017 21:10
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