Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
Sindai
Jan 24, 2007
i want to achieve immortality through not dying
I like how the crowd reacts to Benten flying all over the place with only mild interest.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

some kinda jackal
Feb 25, 2003

 
 

Sindai posted:

I like how the crowd reacts to Benten flying all over the place with only mild interest.

Well she's no airship / tea room fireworks battle.

Knorth
Aug 19, 2014

Buglord
Tanukimom peeking up from under the kotatsu was very cute, I want to hug a tanuki

Phobophilia
Apr 26, 2008

by Hand Knit
Relationships are complicated

Pavlov
Oct 21, 2012

I've long been fascinated with how the alt-right develops elaborate and obscure dog whistles to try to communicate their meaning without having to say it out loud
Stepan Andreyevich Bandera being the most prominent example of that

Knorth posted:

Tanukimom peeking up from under the kotatsu was very cute, I want to hug a tanuki

I wanted to find a picture of an ugly takuni for a reaction image, but I couldn't find one. I guess tanukis are just cute.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



This was a low key episode in comparison with the last one, but an important one. It dealt with a key aspect of the series, their family relationships. It was interesting to see for once Yasaburo not in control of the situation or himself, but being unsettled by the sudden changes in his family.
And the shipping wars are more active than ever, with Kaisei's secret being revealed and the talk of the red string of fate.


I wonder what was the deal with Benten and Nidaime. It seems she was trying to probe into Nidaime's reasons for coming?

Sindai
Jan 24, 2007
i want to achieve immortality through not dying
After this episode I'm pretty sure Benten and Nidaime are mutually attracted and in denial about it

edit: MTD mutually tsundered destruction

SyntheticPolygon
Dec 20, 2013

It's kind of funny how they don't translate any use of 'Nidaime' so they can keep the word itself as an important theme of the story. The title of this episode makes no sense if you don't understand Nidaime means Heir.

Also, I think it's becoming fairly clear that even after 100 years of banishment The Nidaime still has a similar taste in women as his Father. Though I think he's also basically telling the truth when he talks about how much he hates Benten.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



I think Yasaburo tried to overcompensate after his mountain's mini exile, and do something very foolish, very like him. This time it got out of his hands.

I think Benten's fury came more from the fact they acted behind her back, as if she couldn't be reasonable and was only an capricious tanuki-eater (which of course it's kind of true, just don't say it on her face). In the end it only reinforces that behavior of hers ('they believe I'm an evil witch, you will have an evil witch' type of scenario).
In general terms I think the author could be setting up some kind of redemption arc for her in the third novel. From a pure fiction-making perspective, it doesn't make a lot of sense to use up so much of the first two novels in the character if in the end you just say "it's just a capricious, bitchy woman". You are going to make some kind of character arc with her, surely. Hell, we already got the start of it in the first season, where we saw she had some issues hidden within her.

SyntheticPolygon
Dec 20, 2013

Well, it's not like Benten isn't having an arc this season. She's Akadama's appointed successor, and with successors and heirs being a big part of the season she's had some stuff going on. I mean she was one of the Heirs the latest episode's title was referring to, and a big part of the story so far has been the mirroring of her and The Nidaime. Her reaction to him telling her to stop trying to be a Tengu and the way she treated her loss to him are some of the most insight we've gotten into her. And i'm expecting by the end of this story both of them will have changed a fair bit, at least in their role as heirs.

I don't think she's really going to get "redeemed" either. She might feel a little sad and I guess wistful about some of the stuff she's done but I don't think she regrets it. Sure she's inscrutable and all but it's pretty clear Benten's got motivations and goals and I don't think she regrets having acted to achieve them. She doesn't seem the type.

some kinda jackal
Feb 25, 2003

 
 
That third novel had better be half finished by now :mad:

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



It's true that if you try to 'explain' or 'solve' Benten, you break the magic, you break the charm of the mystery.

Doc V
Mar 20, 2010

Sindai posted:

After this episode I'm pretty sure Benten and Nidaime are mutually attracted and in denial about it

edit: MTD mutually tsundered destruction

It's... complicated. The book's version of the London flashback actually had a pretty major reveal that explains a lot about the heir's relationship with Benten, but I guess they're waiting until they can show all the plot tied to his backstory at once.

Martytoof posted:

That third novel had better be half finished by now :mad:

I feel you. I really, really feel you :v:

Doc V
Mar 20, 2010
https://twitter.com/Uchoten2_EN/status/873829350608478208

Pavlov
Oct 21, 2012

I've long been fascinated with how the alt-right develops elaborate and obscure dog whistles to try to communicate their meaning without having to say it out loud
Stepan Andreyevich Bandera being the most prominent example of that
They really need to stop having election day on hotpot day.

Also I'm hoping yasaburo's transformation gimmik with kaisei is more than "just because". It's just looking like plot convenience right now.

Usually that happens when they get scared right? What's he got, fear of commitment?

Doc V
Mar 20, 2010

Pavlov posted:

They really need to stop having election day on hotpot day.

Also I'm hoping yasaburo's transformation gimmik with kaisei is more than "just because". It's just looking like plot convenience right now.

Usually that happens when they get scared right? What's he got, fear of commitment?

Every tanuki has a weakness that makes them unable to maintain their transformation, like Tousen with thunder or Souichirou with Benten. They don't necessarily have to be afraid of it (for example, Souichirou was never actually afraid of Benten, even when he was about to get thrown into a hot pot), it's just one single thing in the universe that makes them unable to transform for reasons that they don't understand themselves. There may be a more complex in-universe explanation for it, but if there is, it's not going to be revealed until the third book.

Pavlov
Oct 21, 2012

I've long been fascinated with how the alt-right develops elaborate and obscure dog whistles to try to communicate their meaning without having to say it out loud
Stepan Andreyevich Bandera being the most prominent example of that
Do they actually say that every tanuki has a special random kryptonite in the books? That just sounds like lazy writing.

I know with the cages they said tanuki can't shapeshift when they lose their 'inner peace' or whatever. Everyone getting scared of benten, the mother freaking out at lightning, frog-bro feeling guilty in front of his mother, those all play into that. I was hoping they'd eventually give a reason why daddy-racoon was the same with benten (show really seems to like playing the long game with reveals).

Doc V
Mar 20, 2010
It hasn't really been established if it's absolutely universal, but it's at least widespread enough that it's generally acknowledged as a thing. Tousen and Gyokuran were talking about it two episodes ago.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



Yep, it felt contrived to me.

Yasaburo is almost never in his tanuki form, but it happens that we just discovered his very rare 'tanuki weakness' in the past episode and now Kaisei, who never shows on person to not bother him, appears physically, triggering the transformation. And of course with Kyoto being so big, Tenmaya discover and captures precisely them. Not only he is in the right place, he also is in the right time, timing wise.
And all for nothing, because you know, I doubt a lot any of the two are going to be eaten. It feels a rehash because again the climax of the season is going to be to escape of the tanuki's pot of Friday's club annual special dinner.

some kinda jackal
Feb 25, 2003

 
 

Turin Turambar posted:

And all for nothing, because you know, I doubt a lot any of the two are going to be eaten. It feels a rehash because again the climax of the season is going to be to escape of the tanuki's pot of Friday's club annual special dinner.

But still... :ohdear:

Also Yasaburo is so bad at running away and hiding

some kinda jackal fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Jun 11, 2017

SyntheticPolygon
Dec 20, 2013

Pavlov posted:

They really need to stop having election day on hotpot day.

Also I'm hoping yasaburo's transformation gimmik with kaisei is more than "just because". It's just looking like plot convenience right now.

Usually that happens when they get scared right? What's he got, fear of commitment?

I'm expecting the reasoning to be Yasaburo just think's Kaisei is so cute that he loses concentration on maintaining his human form. I doubt it'll be something much more complicated than that.

Kind of a shame though that this really does seem to be a mirror of at least the set up of the season 1 climax. The head of the Ebisugawa clan is planning something devious that only Kaisei has any knowledge about and tells Yasaburo of her worries, leading to both of them being captured. Though this time Benten isn't around to save him. I mean there's enough new characters around and new plot beats that it'll be a lot different but the set up is plenty similar. I wonder who's posing as Kureichiro though, there's not really another evil tanuki in the series unless it's a completely new character which would be strange.

Pavlov
Oct 21, 2012

I've long been fascinated with how the alt-right develops elaborate and obscure dog whistles to try to communicate their meaning without having to say it out loud
Stepan Andreyevich Bandera being the most prominent example of that

SyntheticPolygon posted:

I'm expecting the reasoning to be Yasaburo just think's Kaisei is so cute that he loses concentration on maintaining his human form. I doubt it'll be something much more complicated than that.

I'm going to give the show credit and assume it's not that dumb.

Also getting horny isn't something that triggers any of the other tanuks. Even the awkward older brother and chess girl couple. The MC even mentions how it would be absurd to marry someone that un-shapechanges them at a glance, so that sort of thing can't be common for couples.

I guess the yasaburo could just be a special plot convenient snowflake though.

Doc V
Mar 20, 2010
Time for the most shocking twist of the season: when he's not around his brother, Ginkaku is actually a nice boy!

some kinda jackal
Feb 25, 2003

 
 
Me when the credits suddenly start: :supaburn:

Pavlov
Oct 21, 2012

I've long been fascinated with how the alt-right develops elaborate and obscure dog whistles to try to communicate their meaning without having to say it out loud
Stepan Andreyevich Bandera being the most prominent example of that
I was wondering why they don't just turn into birds and fly down when I remembered something. Tanuki never seem to transform into anything that can fly. Never birds or anything like that. The closest is when they use the wine pot to make tram-yajiro fly. Now, it could just be that they can't turn into birds, like they're supposed to be earth spirits or something. I have a suspicion though, that they could, they just won't. They mention that the skies of kyoto belong to the tengu, and a tanuki turning into a bird seems like it would disrupt the social order of that. Is there anything like that mentioned in the book?

SyntheticPolygon
Dec 20, 2013

Doc V posted:

Time for the most shocking twist of the season: when he's not around his brother, Ginkaku is actually a nice boy!

I'm not surprised.

I kinda figured Kureichiro had to be Soun, since I didn't think they would introduce a new evil Tanuki right at the climax but he was dead so I wasn't entirely sure. Also, Yasaburo's lucky that Benten wasn't around to hear his final line for the episode. I think that could have hit her hard.

Doc V
Mar 20, 2010

Pavlov posted:

I was wondering why they don't just turn into birds and fly down when I remembered something. Tanuki never seem to transform into anything that can fly. Never birds or anything like that. The closest is when they use the wine pot to make tram-yajiro fly. Now, it could just be that they can't turn into birds, like they're supposed to be earth spirits or something. I have a suspicion though, that they could, they just won't. They mention that the skies of kyoto belong to the tengu, and a tanuki turning into a bird seems like it would disrupt the social order of that. Is there anything like that mentioned in the book?

Nope, I don't recall transforming into birds ever getting brought up in the books. Respect for the tengu is a pretty plausible explanation - when Yasaburou talks about the natural order among the inhabitants of Kyoto in the preface to the first book, he has a line to the effect of "the tanuki crawl the earth while the tengu soar the skies".

Another possibility is that they can't copy the physical properties of birds close enough to actually get off the ground: according to the books, tanuki don't physically transform to whatever they are mimicking, they're just creating a disguise out of their fur. For instance, when the lady oni compliments Yasaburou's muscles in Arima Hell, he narrates that the "muscles" are just fur and he doesn't really have the full strength of an oni. So basically, one theory is that a tanuki could imitate the shape of a bird or some other flying creature perfectly, but they would be too heavy or not strong enough to actually take off. But again, it hasn't come up in the books, so :shrug:.


SyntheticPolygon posted:

I'm not surprised.

Well, I'm glad you had faith in Ginkaku where I didn't.

About the other twist: yeah, when I read the book I figured out the fake's identity as soon as the real one showed up just because there really was no other plausible option, though I never once suspected that he was a fake before that (even though the book did give a couple of hints about what was really going on).

Pavlov
Oct 21, 2012

I've long been fascinated with how the alt-right develops elaborate and obscure dog whistles to try to communicate their meaning without having to say it out loud
Stepan Andreyevich Bandera being the most prominent example of that
Strange. When they turn into tigers they seem to have the strength of tigers, and the tram seems to have had the weight and sturdiness of a tram when it hit that building.

I'm gunna guess the author just never really made concrete rules for how it all works.

some kinda jackal
Feb 25, 2003

 
 
Yasaburo could probably just transform into a long rear end rope or parachute or something to escape the train but that would just break the story so he can't. I'm guessing it's nothing more complicated than that.

I mean his dad transformed into a mountain, so.. :q:

Numero6
Oct 10, 2012

ここは地の果て 流されて俺
今日もさすらい 涙も涸れる
ブルーゲイル
Turns out tanukis are just extremely dumb.

SyntheticPolygon
Dec 20, 2013

I really enjoyed how pathetic both Nidaime and Akadama's fight and Nidaime and Benten's fight ended up being. It just devolves to hair-pulling and pushing and biting. It's so petty and small, I love it. They're just huge brats deep down.

Kinda wish they explained how Soun faked his death but whatever. The show just kinda trusts you accept some things about it and it's world and i'm cool with that. Soun and Tenmaya making ramen together in Hell is a pretty good end for them though.


I don't think I liked this season as much as the 1st. Still really enjoyed it and all though. A good anime.

Fire Barrel
Mar 28, 2010

SyntheticPolygon posted:

I really enjoyed how pathetic both Nidaime and Akadama's fight and Nidaime and Benten's fight ended up being. It just devolves to hair-pulling and pushing and biting. It's so petty and small, I love it. They're just huge brats deep down.

Kinda wish they explained how Soun faked his death but whatever. The show just kinda trusts you accept some things about it and it's world and i'm cool with that. Soun and Tenmaya making ramen together in Hell is a pretty good end for them though.


I really liked the way in which the conflict between Benten and the Nidaime played out over the course of the season and, by the end, actually found myself feeling bad for both. And I agree that the execution of the final fight really was fantastic. I like Benten and the Nidaime so I'm hoping there will be a chance to see the direction their conflicts with each other and their personal baggage will take in a third season. I'd also like to see Akadama get knocked down a peg (perhaps another peg would be more accurate since he is already a flightless tengu) since he's more than a bit of a jerk.

As for Soun's faked death, I thought the episode indicated that he had some sort of plan with Tenmaya, though perhaps I'm reading too much into some lines+Tenmaya's behavior from earlier in the season.

I really was surprised by how much I enjoyed this show. I thought that the setting was compelling, enjoyed the animation and music, and found the cast of characters to be a well rounded one. The characters were well written and were all quite fun to follow. (Fun might not be the right word for Soun and the Ebisugawa brothers, but they certainly were good antagonists for Yasaburo and his family!)

Dan7el
Dec 7, 2008

I kept expecting Nidaime and Benten to start grappling and kissing each other during their fight -- especially right as he grabbed the side of her head and got real close. Instead, he set her head on fire. I actually think that was a better event anyway.

I can't help but feel that being kidnapped at a relatively young age and forced into this magical world of Tanuki and Tengu has somehow warped Benten in many ways, but she's still not a good person for knowingly eating sentient creatures. I do feel that there is a "natural order of things" vibe going on where Tanuki are the lowest and Tengu are the highest with Humans in between. Perhaps that's why Professor Akadama felt that it was okay to kidnap a human? The "natural order" also explains why it's okay for the all-human Friday Fellows to eat Tanuki whenever they wanted to.

This was definitely one of my favorite anime of the season, and I liked the ending a lot. Seems like a few things got wrapped up with some things left out for the future. There is an obvious reason for Yajirou to go back to (I can't remember where he went on his trip) and visit with those other Tanuki. For another, we didn't see Benten's face after her head burst into flames, but we know her hair was damaged. I wonder if her face is scarred now too? Interesting how she asked to be pitied. That's usually the one thing people don't want.

I wonder if the author is trying to build some super complex relationship between Benten, Yasaborou, and Akadama. If I recall correctly, Akadama introduced Yasaborou to a very young Benten (when they were both young), and they basically grew up together under Akadama's tutelage. I'm not sure how well that's working out because it seems there are more questions than answers. Did they ever explain why Benten, a human, learned how to fly while Yasaborou, arguably much more "magical" in nature than a mere human, didn't? I almost think Yasaborou could fly if he wanted to, but he won't because that's not what Tanuki do.

I felt it was refreshing to see Nidaime was able to win against Benten. Mainly just to see that she didn't always get her way.

SyntheticPolygon
Dec 20, 2013

I'm pretty sure Akadama just didn't bother teaching Yasaburo Tengu magic. He favoured Benten and I doubt Yasaburo would've wanted to learn anyway.

Also nobody won that fight. They both suffered a heavy defeat.

Doc V
Mar 20, 2010

SyntheticPolygon posted:

Kinda wish they explained how Soun faked his death but whatever. The show just kinda trusts you accept some things about it and it's world and i'm cool with that. Soun and Tenmaya making ramen together in Hell is a pretty good end for them though.

It's much better explained in the book. Looks like I'm going to have to write a big explanation post for a bunch of stuff when I get back from work because wow, the show kind of glossed over a ton of stuff.

psyer
Mar 26, 2013
I didn't like the last episode as it felt poorly paced and rushed. Also this season ended up a little disappointing, probably because I had high expectations for it.

I thought the conflict between Benten and the Nidaime to be poorly explained and not given enough backstory. Having Soun as the enemy again seems to be lazy. Also, the leader of the Friday Fellows seemed to disappear in the last episode.

If they are fleshed out in the third season, it would be great but it felt like there were potential this season that was squandered.

Fire Barrel
Mar 28, 2010
Despite liking it quite a bit, I do agree that season 2 definitely could have been more developed. I think this is especially true with regards to Benten and the Nidaime and the reasoning behind/execution of Soun's plans. That's why I'm sort of hoping it gets a third season, since I'm hopeful it could help clear things up.


Doc V posted:

It's much better explained in the book. Looks like I'm going to have to write a big explanation post for a bunch of stuff when I get back from work because wow, the show kind of glossed over a ton of stuff.

Thank you for taking the time to do this for the thread. While I was quite happy with the show, the info you've provided on the books and, of course, your translation of the short story have been greatly appreciated!

Sindai
Jan 24, 2007
i want to achieve immortality through not dying

Doc V posted:

It's much better explained in the book. Looks like I'm going to have to write a big explanation post for a bunch of stuff when I get back from work because wow, the show kind of glossed over a ton of stuff.
That would be great.

Doc V
Mar 20, 2010
Okay, here we go. Stuff from the last episode, off the top of my head:

Sou'un's plan: in the book, Yasaburou says that he never quite figured out how much of what happened at Arima was planned in advance, but he suspects that Sou'un and Tenmaya came up with the idea of faking Sou'un's death when Yasa showed up at the banquet and that the shooting was all an act. Either way, after Kaisei had left the "corpse" to go get the rest of the Ebisugawas, Tenmaya snuck up and replaced Sou'un with a taxidermy he had acquired through some shady connection or another, and that's what was eventually buried at the funeral.

The crux of Sou'un's plan was smell. Remember how in Arima Hell they mention that tanuki recognize each other by smell and that's why a tanuki can't just get away with disguising as another? Normally, switching the body would have been immediately obvious since the taxidermy didn't smell like Sou'un, but he had been soaking in the Arima hot springs long enough to get rid of his scent, so while the body wasn't recognizably his, it wasn't recognizably not his either. That was enough to fool everyone since there were witnesses to his death and there was no real reason to doubt them.

Then Sou'un shows up to crash his own funeral in the guise of his son (in the book, Kureichirou's existence is never even hinted at until the fake shows up out of nowhere after Arima). When he does, pretty much the first thing that the book mentions about him is that he smells awful. Everyone (including me, reading the book) assumed that it was because he was a weird fanatic wandering monk who just never bathes, but knowing the truth about his identity it's apparent that it was Sou'un intentionally making himself stink in order to a) give himself a recognizable scent because not having one would've gotten him ostracized and b) prevent anyone from smelling him close enough to blow his disguise.

The rest is pretty straightforward: the deal Sou'un made with Tenmaya was that he would use his newly-found connections with the Shimogamos to deliver Yasaburou to the Friday Fellows and in exchange he would get the air rifle, which he could then use to frame the Shimogamos for the events at Arima in order to become the Nise-emon.


The heir's past and the 20th Century Hotel:
this is something that the book slowly dripfeeds starting from chapter 1 instead of just dumping the whole thing at once like the show. 100 years ago, the heir was a tengu-in-training under his father in Kyoto, and that's when he came across the 20th Century Hotel: a beautiful western-style building right in the middle of Kyoto. It had originally been constructed by a man who had risen from poverty by selling weapons during the war, but after his death it had been inherited by his beautiful daughter. The heir fell in love with her at first sight. His father, however, was not happy that he was wasting his time on frivolities instead of focusing on his training and seduced the heiress to teach him a lesson. When the son found out, he was furious and started a great tengu war that finally ended when the elder Nyoigatake cast his son down from the roof of Minami-za.

After the battle, the heir limped back to the hotel, but found that the heiress had already left. Humiliated, he fled Japan for England, where he studied arts and science and wowed to never become a tengu like his father. Then, on one gloomy day 100 years later, he was out on a stroll when he happened upon a young woman walking in the rain. When he approached her, he realized to his shock that she was the very same heiress he had fallen in love with 100 years ago.

So yeah, the big reveal in the heir's London flashback and what seems to be pretty much the central mystery for book 3 is that somehow Benten is an exact doppelganger of a woman who lived 100 years ago. Compounding the mystery is Benten's epilogue scene (which is the very final scene in the book), where Yasaburou goes to comfort the defeated Benten - in the sunken ruins of the 20th Century Hotel.


Misc. stuff:

-As mentioned, the last scene in the book is Benten's epilogue. The show's last scene with Yasa, Kaisei and grandma was originally a continuation of the scene at the end of ep 8 where Kaisei reveals her secret (which also means that in the book, Yasa never angsts about not being able to transform around Kaisei - his immediate reaction is pretty much "well, that sucks, but I'll live with it", which I found pretty refreshing).

-The reason that Benten was able to go toe-to-toe with the heir despite getting annihilated earlier is that she eats the Dragonstone she got from Sou'un at Arima. There's a bit all the way back in chapter 1 of the book that explains that the water created by Dragonstones boosts the magical power of tengu, so Benten basically has a magic dynamo inside of her now.

-Speaking of the fight between Benten and the heir, in the book Benten goes all out with her ice magic, which constrasts with the heir's fire and lets her do cool stuff like smash a rooftop water tank and turn the water spouts into ice spears.

-Juroujin and the Friday Fellows don't really get much more of an epilogue than in the show, but at least the book mentions that they took advantage of the commotion of the tengu battle to make themselves scarce.

-They cut out all of the heir's actual character development from his epilogue lol

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Pavlov
Oct 21, 2012

I've long been fascinated with how the alt-right develops elaborate and obscure dog whistles to try to communicate their meaning without having to say it out loud
Stepan Andreyevich Bandera being the most prominent example of that
Oh wow. Yeah that's definitely skipping some stuff.

  • Locked thread