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forkbucket
Mar 9, 2008

Magnets are my only weakness.
I'm going on a trip soon with some friends to Trolltunga in Norway, including an overnight in the area. These last couple years have seen me revise most of my equipment to lighter versions and I'm getting dangerously close to being ultralight. (Yay for no longer being a poor student!)

Usually my friends and I hammock camp, so I'm using my hammock tarp as a shelter (it has door flaps on either side so it should provide ample protection). This is partly because none of us own a tent, and partly because I want to keep my set up as light as possible. This means I'll be sleeping on the ground on my 1/4" thick foam pad, which is thinner than my old pad. My old pad was the cheapest budget pad in the store, bought who knows how many years ago. It has since been transformed into a cozy for my friend's home brewing kit. No idea what the R-value of my old pad was, but apparently this newer 1/4" one is around R-value 0.90. Hopefully that'll be warm enough, but I run hot so who knows!

Another thing I'm debating trying out: Using trail runners instead of my traditional mountain boots. I've been reading a bunch about using trail runners in stead of traditional boots, with the pros and cons of both. Most people who write about it on the internet seem to be in the USA. Ask any Norwegian and they'll balk at the idea of using anything less than a 1.2 kg boot in the mountains, so it makes me feel like I'm breaking some unwritten rule by doing it. :ohdear:

I've read tips like bringing a warm dry pair of socks to change into once you get into camp, then putting bread bags over your dry socks before putting em back into the trail runners to help dry the shoes and keep your feet dry.

Anybody here Scandinavian and/or have experience using trail runners in Norwegian mountains? Any other tips or pointers? I'm still a bit on the fence about it myself. The planned trip is in the beginning of July, so the temperatures where we're going could be anywhere from 5-20 degrees Celcius, but the average is about 9-10 C for that time of year.

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Verman
Jul 4, 2005
Third time is a charm right?

forkbucket posted:

No idea what the R-value of my old pad was, but apparently this newer 1/4" one is around R-value 0.90. Hopefully that'll be warm enough, but I run hot so who knows!

The temperature range you listed doesn't sound too extreme but I would be nervous if it gets near or lower than 5ºC. Your sleeping pad is essentially a piece of cardboard in terms of insulation and won't do a thing to insulate you from the ground. Hopefully you have a decent enough sleeping bag appropriate for the given climate. Also keep in mind if it rains its going to feel much colder and the ground will suck the heat right out of you.

forkbucket posted:

Another thing I'm debating trying out: Using trail runners instead of my traditional mountain boots. I've been reading a bunch about using trail runners in stead of traditional boots, with the pros and cons of both. Most people who write about it on the internet seem to be in the USA. Ask any Norwegian and they'll balk at the idea of using anything less than a 1.2 kg boot in the mountains, so it makes me feel like I'm breaking some unwritten rule by doing it. :ohdear:

I've switched to backpacking in trail runners a few years ago and I don't regret it one bit. A few of the primary reasons I've switched was lighter weight (by nearly a pound per foot), increased breathability, and they dry quickly. I've had several pairs of "waterproof" boots including goretex and they've all wetted out/soaked eventually. The worst part about waterproof boots is that when they do get wet, they don't dry. After 15 miles and thousands of feet of elevation gain, I feel like the 2 pound weight savings on my feet really starts to take notice. The other thing is how quick they are to dry. I've had waterproof boots and they've all soaked at some point. The worst part is how long it takes for them to dry and its miserable waking up in the morning and putting on wet boots. Also for backpacking, you are putting several days worth of hiking on your feet and if your boots don't dry out, you are going to destroy your feet.

Also, I bring crocs as camp shoes/river crossing shoes. They weigh nothing, don't absorb water, and slip on easily while staying on due to the back strap. They are ugly as sin but my god if they weren't made perfectly for this purpose. Clip them to your pack with a carabineer and bingo bango.

Depending on the length of the trip, I hike with a 25-35 lb pack (with food and water). I'm 5'10" and about 160lbs for a frame of reference and I don't notice a difference in "support". Most of my backpacking boots in the past were mid height so they never really fully covered the ankle. I play hockey so I have pretty strong and stable ankles which might help me. Then again, I'm also not doing any class 3 scrambles with my pack on either. Most of my scrambles are side trips after we've made camp.

One of the downfalls of trail runners is that they seem to let in a lot of dirt/dust. Thats the sacrifice you make with the increased breathability. My feet don't generally sweat anymore but they will get really dirty. I just take time to wash my feet every night and beat out my shoes.

forkbucket posted:

I've read tips like bringing a warm dry pair of socks to change into once you get into camp, then putting bread bags over your dry socks before putting em back into the trail runners to help dry the shoes and keep your feet dry.

I've stopped carrying extra clothes (beyond the necessary) but I still bring extra socks. I have a few rituals for keeping my feet clean. I bring 2 pairs of medium weight wool hiking socks and 1 pair of thicker wool socks for in camp/sleeping. After each day of hiking I wash my feet and the socks that I hiked in that day. Hang that pair to dry and put on my clean camp socks. In the morning I will put on my clean pair of hiking socks and repeat. The bread bag thing seems like it would cause your feet to sweat ... not sure its something I would want to try.

Verman fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Jun 14, 2017

ASSTASTIC
Apr 27, 2003

Hey Gusy!
^^^^^^^What were you doing when it came to cleaning your boots after hikes? Its recommended that you clean your boots after every/every other hike because dirt and wear and tear can break down the water repellency of boots. Using a brush to scurb off dirt as well as shampoo them down. You also need to to reapply DWR to boots as well at LEAST every year. I do this to my jackets and boots every year and haven't had an issue with them soaking up water.^^^^^^^^^^^

forkbucket posted:

I'm going on a trip soon with some friends to Trolltunga in Norway, including an overnight in the area. These last couple years have seen me revise most of my equipment to lighter versions and I'm getting dangerously close to being ultralight. (Yay for no longer being a poor student!)

Usually my friends and I hammock camp, so I'm using my hammock tarp as a shelter (it has door flaps on either side so it should provide ample protection). This is partly because none of us own a tent, and partly because I want to keep my set up as light as possible. This means I'll be sleeping on the ground on my 1/4" thick foam pad, which is thinner than my old pad. My old pad was the cheapest budget pad in the store, bought who knows how many years ago. It has since been transformed into a cozy for my friend's home brewing kit. No idea what the R-value of my old pad was, but apparently this newer 1/4" one is around R-value 0.90. Hopefully that'll be warm enough, but I run hot so who knows!

Another thing I'm debating trying out: Using trail runners instead of my traditional mountain boots. I've been reading a bunch about using trail runners in stead of traditional boots, with the pros and cons of both. Most people who write about it on the internet seem to be in the USA. Ask any Norwegian and they'll balk at the idea of using anything less than a 1.2 kg boot in the mountains, so it makes me feel like I'm breaking some unwritten rule by doing it. :ohdear:

I've read tips like bringing a warm dry pair of socks to change into once you get into camp, then putting bread bags over your dry socks before putting em back into the trail runners to help dry the shoes and keep your feet dry.

Anybody here Scandinavian and/or have experience using trail runners in Norwegian mountains? Any other tips or pointers? I'm still a bit on the fence about it myself. The planned trip is in the beginning of July, so the temperatures where we're going could be anywhere from 5-20 degrees Celcius, but the average is about 9-10 C for that time of year.

I'm not Norwegian by any respects, but I can comment on the footwear aspect. I can understand where the locals feel that going without hiking boots is a bad idea. What you gain from boots over trail runners is ankle stability. I see that you are going lighter and lighter in your setup, but I swear I've gotten my ankles saved by my boots more times than I'd like to admit. Even though they are heavier, knowing that I won't completely bust up my ankle if I misstep. One thing though which can counter this argument is that a heavier pack can exacerbate a sprained ankle if you misstep, so if your pack is lighter, there might be lower impact if you sprain it.

I feel you should do what feels good to you. I have kind of fragile ankles, so I don't risk it. I actually pack knee and ankle braces with me on backpacking trips just in case(and I've used them!) when I step wrong on a root or stone.

Another advantage of boots is stream crossing. If you have a waterproof boot, stream crossing is no problem and your feet won't get wet at all. If you are in non-goretex trail runners, your feet will definitely get wet and will take a while to dry unless you are wearing really breathable/thin trail runners which are almost sandals. You risk blisters when you do this if your feet aren't given the chance to dry an adequate amount. You do not want to get your feet wet at the temperature you are going to be at.

I completely agree with the sock advice. Bring extra pairs to change into. I'm not sure about the bread bag trick, but another thing you can do is bring a pair of sandals which would let your boots/shoes dry out when you are at camp(Yes, I know you are trying to backpack light).

ASSTASTIC fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Jun 14, 2017

ASSTASTIC
Apr 27, 2003

Hey Gusy!
Double Post.

Morbus
May 18, 2004

If you are trekking along the main trail, and not intending to do any scrambling up mountains or anything, I think trail runners would be fine and possibly even preferable. My time spent in Scandinavia/Norway has always been in the winter and early spring so can't really comment on the summer. I can't imagine conditions in the summer are worse, though. Here are some considerations:

1. Proponents of trail runners are often from the western US (like myself), where a light breathable runner can be expected to dry very quickly after getting wet, whereas when a waterproof boot does eventually get wet, they can stay that way for days. This can be less true in cool humid climates, where everything pretty much stays wet unless there is enough of a breeze to dry them. If you get your runners soaked and its 7C outside, 80% humidity, and only a 1 m/s breeze, your runners are never going to get "dry", just varying degrees of less damp--pretty much the same as if you had waterproof hiking boots that got wet. The good news is that coastal Norway tends to be quite breezy, in which case trail runners should dry quickly. But if there isn't much of a breeze, don't count on it, since all your poo poo is gonna be within a couple degrees of the dew point the whole trip--very different situation than someone hiking in California or Colorado.

2. Trail runners initially became popular out west for people doing extended outdoor trips, like the JMT or even PCT. On extended trips, especially those with several water crossings, waterproof boots will eventually fail and get wet inside. Also, waterproof boots depend on the quality of their outer DWR treatment, and these will typically not hold up well after weeks on trail. This, combined with the fact that runners tend to dry extremely quickly in the climate of e.g. the PCT, make runners really attractive for such longer trips in that kind of climate. On shorter trips though, a waterproof boot is more likely to hold its poo poo together and keep you dry, whereas your feet will get soaked in runners the first puddle you step in. And if you are just going out 1-2 days at a time, with access to a heated indoors environment in between where you can dry boots, you don't really need to worry about how they will hold up to extended wetness. Finally, if you treat your boots with a fresh coating of nikwax or whatever, and are only out hiking for like a week, they will probably perform very well.

3. Norway can be boggy and muddy as gently caress in places. If you slog through mud in trail runners, it will go through the mesh / down your ankle and your socks and feet will get full of dirt. This can be a source of discomfort and blisters if you don't take breaks to clean your feet/socks, and may or may not cause your shoes to smell like poo poo forever.

4. If you are planning on scrambling up mountains or doing other off trail stuff, then, depending on the terrain, having the stiffer sole and torsional rigidity of a boot may be preferable. If you are staying on trail or within "trekkable" terrain, it shouldn't matter.

5. There are trail runners available with substantially softer and grippier soles than what is used in most mountain boots. Part of this is because boots need to have a structurally stiffer sole, and part of it is that boots are generally marketed as being able to last hundreds or thousands of miles whereas nobody is surprised if a trail runner falls apart after 200, hence very grippy but less durable sole materials can be used on runners. For this reason, I often feel a lot more secure especially in steep or slippery terrain in trail runners.

6. There is a huge variety both in the fit and function of various trail runners. You've only got like a month left for your trip, so if you are going to try trail runners you should try on a bunch of different pairs, preferably from someplace with a really generous return policy, go hiking in them, and see what works or doesn't

I would probably just take my runners if I were going to Trolltunga in July. Because I'm more comfortable in them, they have better traction than my boots, they're lighter, and I feel I can hike more efficiently in them. But I wouldn't count on them keeping my feet as dry as boots, nor would I necessarily count on being able to dry them. Do definitely bring more pairs of dry socks than you think you'll need. Definitely don't put plastic bags over your socks in trail runners; it won't work, it'll be uncomfortable, the bags will get shredded,, and your feet and socks will get muggy and wet from sweat even if they don't. People sometimes do stuff like that to provide a vapor barrier when trying to extend the use of trail runners into winter conditions where they probably should just be wearing boots, there is no reason to fool around with it in July.

Morbus fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Jun 14, 2017

Verman
Jul 4, 2005
Third time is a charm right?

ASSTASTIC posted:

^^^^^^^What were you doing when it came to cleaning your boots after hikes? Its recommended that you clean your boots after every/every other hike because dirt and wear and tear can break down the water repellency of boots. Using a brush to scurb off dirt as well as shampoo them down. You also need to to reapply DWR to boots as well at LEAST every year. I do this to my jackets and boots every year and haven't had an issue with them soaking up water.^^^^^^^^^^^

Jackets and boots are apples and oranges, completely different pieces of gear when it comes to waterproofness. Jackets are much easier to maintain. Boots are infinitely more difficult to keep waterproof and the more waterproof they are the less breathable they tend to be.

I wash and clean my gear after every big trip. Boots get a spray off with an air hose, then a brushing and cleaning in a tub of water. I reapply DWR every season (spring and fall). I've had boots that are much more successful than others at keeping water out but they all suffer from the same problems eventually.

The more waterproof a boot is, the less breathable it tends to be. This can cause your feet to sweat and now you have a hot and wet foot.

The materials that work so hard to keep moisture out also do a very good job of keeping it in. Most of the waterproof liners just act like a bathtub and hold water inside the boot until you can pour it out. Once your boots get soaked, it takes forever for them to dry out and hiking days on end in wet boots will absolutely destroy your feet.

If/when your boots get wet, they will get significantly heavier. One of my older pair nearly double their weight when wet.

The height of most boots are between mid ankle and just above, so maybe 4-8" off the ground at most. Most river crossings that are lower than the top of my boots can usually be crossed very easily without having to touch the water. If I come to a river thats even close to the height of my boots, I change into my crocs for the crossing.

Personally, this is a choice that I made after my experiences outdoors. I've had some miserable experiences where my boots soaked after days of heavy rain and there was zero chance they were going to dry out. My feet were going to be wet no matter what. Had I been in trail runners, at least the water would be allowed to drain and my shoes wouldn't have gained so much weight. They also might have actually been able to dry in my tent overnight whereas my boots felt the exact sam the next day. Its something that each person has to decide for themselves but I have come to grips with my feet getting wet at some point and just having shoes that vent and dry quicker. Keeping dry socks in your pack and a pair of crocs for river crossings/camp shoes is key.

I still wear waterproof boots on occasion depending on the trip (mountaineering, snowshoeing, winter hikes, etc) but for most of my hikes and backpacking trips its trail runners for me. My big thing with train runners though is that they need to have a good sole. I personally prefer a vibram sole as I feel it grips really well on rock, and is a stiffer shank protecting you from rocks on the underside etc. While I appreciate the weight savings, its still important to have some protection.

bongwizzard
May 19, 2005

Then one day I meet a man,
He came to me and said,
"Hard work good and hard work fine,
but first take care of head"
Grimey Drawer
I have both a pair of leather backpacking boots and a pair of trailrunners and they both really suck in different ways. I am back to wanting waterproof synthetic hiking boots for most of my time outside.

I am going try an experiment and use the trail runners all summer and just try not to give a gently caress if my feet are wet all the time. I only really hike around water and the constant worry about wet feet is really harshing my mellow. I always carry spare socks as like a general life thing, so having two spare pairs on me for a day hike is no issue.

forkbucket
Mar 9, 2008

Magnets are my only weakness.
Thanks for all the input everyone. I'll just have to do some day hikes with full pack weight and see how I feel in my trail runners! I'll probably bring both and decide based on conditions when we get there. In my leather boots I do sometimes get pretty sweaty but it's never bothered me when I have a solid pair of wool socks on.

The plastic bag thing was more of a "so you wanna sit around camp and your shoes are still wet, but you have your dry socks on" type of tip if I understood it correctly. gently caress walking around with plastic bags on my feet forever.

I'll try to remember to report back how my pad held up! My summer sleeping bag is Ok, not great, but I usually run pretty hot. It's next on the list for an upgrade, but not for a while!

Morbus
May 18, 2004

Ah I see, that makes more sense.

Verman makes a really good point in that even if conditions are such that your trail runners don't dry, they hold a lot less water than boots, and are better at draining/squeezing it out from walking.

Edit: FYI you can something like a zlite sol foam pad with an R-value of around 2.5 for ~30 bucks new. Might be worth it if your current pad really is < 1. I used that pad plenty of nights to just below freezing, and while I wasn't warm I was able to sleep.

Morbus fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Jun 14, 2017

forkbucket
Mar 9, 2008

Magnets are my only weakness.
The one I have is the extra wide one from gossamer gear, the thinlight 1/4". Like most of the stuff I've bought recently it's primarily for hammock camping, haven't tested it on ground yet. The extra width is super handy so my shoulders don't get cold cause they slid off a narrower pad. If conditions are horrible I could potentially fold it in half lengthwise and it would be about as wide as your average pad.

Edit: I'll keep an eye out for sales at my local sports store for that pad tho, can't have too much gear! :v:

Dukket
Apr 28, 2007
So I says to her, I says “LADY, that ain't OIL, its DIRT!!”

forkbucket posted:


The plastic bag thing was more of a "so you wanna sit around camp and your shoes are still wet, but you have your dry socks on" type of tip if I understood it correctly. gently caress walking around with plastic bags on my feet forever.


I know they weigh more than a plastic bag, but we bought crocs for camp shoes and water crossing.

Alehkhs
Oct 6, 2010

The Sorrow of Poets

quote:

COSTCO!

Anyone have any opinions on the sleeping pads sold at Costco stores? Good for (non-ultralight) backpacking? What sort of return policy does Costco in the event of a leak/other issue?

Verman
Jul 4, 2005
Third time is a charm right?
Costco has an excellent return policy. You should have no problem returning it to a store if it develops a leak.

My local costco has a lot of outdoor stuff (we're in seattle) so we generally have the carbon fiber poles, sleeping pads, mountain house freeze dried meals, backpacks etc.

Right now, they have backpacking sleeping pads by Klymit which are decent especially for the price. The insulated version is $50ish, insulate with an R value of 4.4, weighs 25 oz w/pillow which is fairly common for an insulated pad thats not ultralight.
https://www.costco.com/Klymit-Insulated-Static-V-Sleeping-Pad-with-X-Pillow.product.100320380.html

ASSTASTIC
Apr 27, 2003

Hey Gusy!

Alehkhs posted:

Anyone have any opinions on the sleeping pads sold at Costco stores? Good for (non-ultralight) backpacking? What sort of return policy does Costco in the event of a leak/other issue?

You literally can return anything to costco as long as they can look it up EXCEPT for TVs, cell phones, dvd players, aka "consumer electronics" and there is a 90 day return policy on those. I've heard horror stories of a guy that would buy produce, use some, and let the rest rot, return it to costco and buy more produce, basically scamming them. I think they banned him. No time limit for those other things than consumer electronics.

The thing is, costco membership is privilege....and that privilege can be revoked, so don't abuse their generous return policy and you should be fine. At REI, our Loss Prevention Department would flag your account if you had over 75% of your purchases returned. We would revoke your membership if that happened.

Primo Itch
Nov 4, 2006
I confessed a horrible secret for this account!
I know most/a lot of you guys camp in very cold conditions, but they're not really the norm around here. Coldest I've ever got in my country (Brazil) was around 5ºC, camping in winter, while coldest in Patagonia was around -6ºC (no idea about windchill thought that's some crazy wind down there I'll tell you). That said, what's you guys opinion on using butane/propane stoves? I've seen talks about using liquid flamables but not anything about using gas (as in gaseous, not gasoline). They are very common around here and everywhere I've hiked in Patagonia they where the majority of stoves found. Any reasons I should think about switching up? I have a small stove that just attachs to the top of the cartridge, weights around 100g, and a 250g cartridge will easily be enough for one person cooking/boiling for 5 or 6 days on around 0ºC temperatures, and the flame is very stable and resistant to strong winds.

Edit: Altitude also doesn't tend to be a problem, South of the Andes (my prefered area) is quite low, camping is at most at 2000m. You can really only go higher if you go north and then the weather just changes a lot.


I'll also get this out of my system since I don't get a lot of people around here to talk about this poo poo (everyone says I'm insane from doing some pretty mundane treks): Osprey backpacks are awesome. I've had an Osprey Aether for some five years already and really, that thing is insanely confortable, light, has all the accesses and external thingamajing you could want, fits like a glove and is so resistant it feels like it's made of unobtanium.

Primo Itch fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Jun 15, 2017

Morbus
May 18, 2004

Short answer is a typical upright gas canister stove, using isobutane mix (better than butane), will operate down to ~ -10 to -5C at sea level, and will be able to operate about ~1 C colder for every ~600 meters elevation gain. Be sure to take altitude into consideration if you have an OK time operating a stove at cold temperatures at high altitude, and later plan a trip in cold temperatures lower down. Note that the actual behavior of gas canister stoves is opposite to the common misconception that they suffer at high altitude. Cold is a problem, altitude isn't.

For colder temperatures a canister stove that supports inverted operation will buy you at least another -10C. There are ultralight remote canister stoves that weigh the same as their upright counterparts, so its a good general purpose option if you ever plan on going to below freezing temps. Even at just 0C an inverted canister will perform noticeably better than an upright canister, which is great if you plan to melt snow.

Alehkhs
Oct 6, 2010

The Sorrow of Poets

ASSTASTIC posted:

You literally can return anything to costco as long as they can look it up EXCEPT for TVs, cell phones, dvd players, aka "consumer electronics" and there is a 90 day return policy on those. I've heard horror stories of a guy that would buy produce, use some, and let the rest rot, return it to costco and buy more produce, basically scamming them. I think they banned him. No time limit for those other things than consumer electronics.

The thing is, costco membership is privilege....and that privilege can be revoked, so don't abuse their generous return policy and you should be fine. At REI, our Loss Prevention Department would flag your account if you had over 75% of your purchases returned. We would revoke your membership if that happened.

Oh yeah, I'm not looking to destroy the pads and then return them. I can definitely understand retailers dropping customers that abuse no-worry returns policies.

I just grew up using foam pads, but my wife wants to try out inflatable sleeping pads for backpacking. I'm a bit leery and hesitant but willing to try out an inflatable. Being able to return it in the case of leaks finally helped relax me into the decision.

Alehkhs fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Jun 15, 2017

FCKGW
May 21, 2006

Went car camping last weekend and realized the kids novelty sleeping bags don't work at all in 35 degree nights. We were mistakable and came home early.

Looking at getting new bags, should I get something geared towards kids or is an adult bag fine? Ages are 4 and 6.

deong
Jun 13, 2001

I'll see you in heck!

FCKGW posted:

Went car camping last weekend and realized the kids novelty sleeping bags don't work at all in 35 degree nights. We were mistakable and came home early.

Looking at getting new bags, should I get something geared towards kids or is an adult bag fine? Ages are 4 and 6.

Kid sized bags won't need as big of a furnace to keep warm. Your body heats the inside of a bag, so that extra air just takes more energy.
Also, they'll probably need a new bag by the time they are large enough to fit an adult bag due to wear and tear.

Verman
Jul 4, 2005
Third time is a charm right?

FCKGW posted:

Looking at getting new bags, should I get something geared towards kids or is an adult bag fine? Ages are 4 and 6.

Adult bags can work if your kids are old enough/big enough but won't be as warm as a bag that fits their smaller bodies. I linked to Campmor because they have a wider selection of kids bags than REI and they also have a 20% off coupon (SAVE20) for one full priced item.

The Marmot Trestles is a nice bag. 30º rating, $70 and fits kids up to 5' tall. ($54 after coupon)
https://www.campmor.com/c/marmot-trestles-synthetic-30-degree-sleeping-bag-kids

The Kelty Little Tree and Little Flower are even warmer for the same price.: 20º rating, $70 fits kids to 5'4" tall.
https://www.campmor.com/c/kelty-kids-little-tree-and-little-flower-20-degree-sleeping-bags

For budget options, the Eureka Grasshopper and Ladybug should work as well: $35. 30º rated, Fits to 5' tall.
https://www.campmor.com/c/eureka-grasshopper-30-child-sleeping-bag

A lot of people tend to skimp on their kids gear for a lot of reasons but my belief is that if you want your kids to enjoy camping, making them comfortable is going to be the easiest hurdle to get over in making camping with your family successful. Some sort of sleeping pad/mattress and a warm sleeping bag will give them the best chance at a good nights rest. By the time your kids outgrow those sleeping bags, you will likely know if they enjoy camping in which case you can upgrade to adult bags, or they will be teenagers and hate the idea of spending time with their parents and completely loathe the idea of sleeping in a tent with you.

ASSTASTIC
Apr 27, 2003

Hey Gusy!

FCKGW posted:

Went car camping last weekend and realized the kids novelty sleeping bags don't work at all in 35 degree nights. We were mistakable and came home early.

Looking at getting new bags, should I get something geared towards kids or is an adult bag fine? Ages are 4 and 6.

Get gear towards kid sizes right now if you can afford it. The adult size bags are going to be more expensive as well as they will have to "warm up" the entire bag with their body heat. REI makes great kids stuff that actually "grows" with them. Meaning, I remember seeing a jacket that was sewn small, then there is different colored thread on the inside parents can cut which makes the jacket bigger and sleeves longer as they grow older. Apparently they do that with their sleeping bags as well:

https://www.rei.com/product/845512/rei-co-op-kindercone-sleeping-bag-kids

I suggest you check them out.

FogHelmut
Dec 18, 2003

Oh, I have a 7 month old son, I haven't even thought about what to do with him. I guess this time of year, anywhere I'd be considering has lows in the 60's, so that's not really a big deal. What do you do with a baby otherwise?

ASSTASTIC
Apr 27, 2003

Hey Gusy!

FogHelmut posted:

Oh, I have a 7 month old son, I haven't even thought about what to do with him. I guess this time of year, anywhere I'd be considering has lows in the 60's, so that's not really a big deal. What do you do with a baby otherwise?

I have a 2 year old and we went to Yellowstone and camped for the 10 day trip. He was 1.5 at the time and we were car camping. I used the REI queen size inflatable bed and he slept fine in it. Nights got cold and he likes to kick the blankets off, but we just kept a beanie on him and kept checking to ensure he was in the blankets with us. This is the one we used:

https://www.rei.com/product/878774/rei-co-op-kingdom-sleep-system-queen

Its great system and does go on sale as well.

FogHelmut
Dec 18, 2003

ASSTASTIC posted:

I have a 2 year old and we went to Yellowstone and camped for the 10 day trip. He was 1.5 at the time and we were car camping. I used the REI queen size inflatable bed and he slept fine in it. Nights got cold and he likes to kick the blankets off, but we just kept a beanie on him and kept checking to ensure he was in the blankets with us. This is the one we used:

https://www.rei.com/product/878774/rei-co-op-kingdom-sleep-system-queen

Its great system and does go on sale as well.

I have a gigantic queen double tall air mattress that I use for guests. The last time I went car camping, I inflated that thing with a hand pump. As soon as I got home, I ordered https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000OF92KA/ This thing is a rocket.

I probably should get a more reasonable mattress, but this is the one I already have.

Catatron Prime
Aug 23, 2010

IT ME



Toilet Rascal

Alehkhs posted:

Oh yeah, I'm not looking to destroy the pads and then return them. I can definitely understand retailers dropping customers that abuse no-worry returns policies.

I just grew up using foam pads, but my wife wants to try out inflatable sleeping pads for backpacking. I'm a bit leery and hesitant but willing to try out an inflatable. Being able to return it in the case of leaks finally helped relax me into the decision.

Oh yeah, no hesitation--inflatable pads are the poo poo. Earlier this year I picked up the REI Flash pad for a trip I couldn't take my hammock on, and holy hell that thing was ridiculously comfortable. As a hammock camper, I'm absolutely shocked at just how great pads have gotten in the last ten years, it's pretty unbelievable.

FCKGW posted:

Went car camping last weekend and realized the kids novelty sleeping bags don't work at all in 35 degree nights. We were mistakable and came home early.

Looking at getting new bags, should I get something geared towards kids or is an adult bag fine? Ages are 4 and 6.

If you're camping in anything that cold forget about any kind of novelty or rectangular sleeping bags, you absolutely must have a mummy style bag with hood, draft collar, etc. And don't forget an insulated sleeping pad, because the ground sucks all the heat out of you like a giant heatsink, the compressed insulation under you doesn't do much good. Even an inflatable air mattress doesn't offer much in the way of insulation on cold nights, you'll need a foam pad or something like that.

Another thing you can do to improve tolerance at colder temperatures is to boil some water, throw it in a nalgene and put it into a thick sock, and stick that between your thighs. Basically it'll radiate warmth to your femoral artery, which will pump that warm blood all throughout your body.

Since you're car camping, you may look at just getting an adult sleeping bag (depending on how old/fast they're growing) and just fill in or sew up the bottom half or something since you're not worried about weight so much.

Verman
Jul 4, 2005
Third time is a charm right?

Alehkhs posted:

Oh yeah, I'm not looking to destroy the pads and then return them. I can definitely understand retailers dropping customers that abuse no-worry returns policies.

I just grew up using foam pads, but my wife wants to try out inflatable sleeping pads for backpacking. I'm a bit leery and hesitant but willing to try out an inflatable. Being able to return it in the case of leaks finally helped relax me into the decision.

I started out on a foam pad and it was just never comfortable enough for me to keep using it. I would wake up with sore hips, shoulders etc because I always ended up on my side. I realized that I wasn't well rested in the mornings because I could never get comfortable. Then I switched to self inflating pads (half foam, half air) and that was better but still not very comfortable. The thickness was maybe 2" at most fully inflated. You had to really make sure it was as full as you could get it so that you wouldn't feel the ground beneath you. A few problems with that pad were that it was really easy to slide off the pad at night. Second was that the thickness still wasn't comfortable when I ended up on my side. Third was that it wasn't very well insulated so I would get cold in lower temps.

Eventually I went with an air pad (and I was hesitant at first). For roughly the same size and less weight, I got a 4" thick insulated pad that is incredibly comfortable, insulated for colder temps, and keeps me from falling off. Even if I sleep on my back, side or stomach, I wake up well rested and comfortable. At first, I was worried about leaks but I don't worry about air pads anymore. I've been using the same inflatable pad for the last 5 years with zero issues. I think a lot of people hear "inflatable" and think of cheap pool toys. The materials they use now are incredible and surprisingly durable.

Just be careful to ensure that sharp objects are properly taken care of (knife, multi tool, fork, crampons, etc). Also when setting up your site, make sure to avoid any rocks and sweep away sharp debris like sticks.

Honestly though, I likely won't ever switch back from inflated pads.

Flambeau
Aug 5, 2015
Plaster Town Cop
Someone asked about Alps Mountaineering gear earlier, and I can say that on a budget it is adequate in mild conditions. Ive been comfortable in their 20f down sleeping bag and liner with a klymit v2 inflatable (r-value 1.3) at 25F at low elevation. I also have their 65l pack, which is bulky and not nice to my shoulders. The bag is solid for my needs, but I plan to upgrade the pack.

Also everyone says 'just dry your trail runners overnight' but lol that's never happened. Damp shoes blow, and a couple spare pair of socks doesn't solve the problem. But Im still basically a noob and haven't figured it all out yet.

FCKGW
May 21, 2006

Thanks foir the suggestions. We're using inflatable mattresses with blankets on the top to keep the heat in, hopefully that's good enough. We probably won't be doing too much camping in sub-50 weather, it was just a particularly cold weekend (this weekend is supposed to be 100+).

Any recommendations on Adult bags? Should I get a double bag for my wife and I or just stick with individual bags?

CopperHound
Feb 14, 2012

FCKGW posted:

Should I get a double bag for my wife and I or just stick with individual bags?
For the sake of your marriage get separate bags. If you are car camping and think you'd want to cuddle just bring a big duvet or comforter.

If you think you still want to try sharing a bag, just buy the men's and women's version of the same bag. Usually the zippers on opposite sides and will zip together. You will only do it once.

CopperHound fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Jun 16, 2017

SulfurMonoxideCute
Feb 9, 2008

I was under direct orders not to die
🐵❌💀

My husband and I have bags that zip together. When backpacking we always zip them up together unless we're too exhausted to bother. But we're cuddlers and been together over 18 years and backpacking together for 6 so we're safe.

When we car camp we'll use them on an air mattress and sometimes combine with some comforters if it's cold.

CopperHound
Feb 14, 2012

Do you have some way to vent just your side of the bag? I end up over heating until either of us shift and suck the bag full of outside cold air.

Morbus
May 18, 2004

Quilts are pretty great for easy thermoregulation. I have switched to them from mummy bags with no complaints. They are also pretty great for two person sleeping.

Picnic Princess, when backpacking with your husband what do you do about sleeping pads? My girlfriend and I have tried tying together two inflatable pads, but someone always ends up in the gap, or one pad slides over/under the other. Plus the space between the two pads is noticeably colder on cold nights. I'm thinking about just getting a two person inflatable pad.

SulfurMonoxideCute
Feb 9, 2008

I was under direct orders not to die
🐵❌💀

I've never really found it to be too much of an issue for us, it tends to get quite cold at night here and they're both mummy style so we cinch it as tight as possible. If either of us get too hot, we tend to just pull an arm out and that releases enough heat, like when you're in bed and you let a foot out to cool off.

Morbus posted:

Picnic Princess, when backpacking with your husband what do you do about sleeping pads? My girlfriend and I have tried tying together two inflatable pads, but someone always ends up in the gap, or one pad slides over/under the other. Plus the space between the two pads is noticeably colder on cold nights. I'm thinking about just getting a two person inflatable pad.

We have two Ridgerests, this style:



A gap can sometimes happen, but I find that they don't really slide around too much. The bags slide over them much more than they slide against tent material.

SulfurMonoxideCute fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Jun 16, 2017

FogHelmut
Dec 18, 2003

FCKGW posted:

Thanks foir the suggestions. We're using inflatable mattresses with blankets on the top to keep the heat in, hopefully that's good enough. We probably won't be doing too much camping in sub-50 weather, it was just a particularly cold weekend (this weekend is supposed to be 100+).

Any recommendations on Adult bags? Should I get a double bag for my wife and I or just stick with individual bags?

Where are you camping at? I've been looking for some ideas.


Is there a "where are you camping at" thread?

FCKGW
May 21, 2006

FogHelmut posted:

Where are you camping at? I've been looking for some ideas.


Is there a "where are you camping at" thread?

You're in OC right? I was looking in Idlywild but most sites were full up. We ended up at Heart Bar Campground, near Big Bear. Real nice spot, had a rad meadow just behind us. Closest trails were closed due to fire though.

Morbus
May 18, 2004

Flambeau posted:

Someone asked about Alps Mountaineering gear earlier, and I can say that on a budget it is adequate in mild conditions. Ive been comfortable in their 20f down sleeping bag and liner with a klymit v2 inflatable (r-value 1.3) at 25F at low elevation. I also have their 65l pack, which is bulky and not nice to my shoulders. The bag is solid for my needs, but I plan to upgrade the pack.

Also everyone says 'just dry your trail runners overnight' but lol that's never happened. Damp shoes blow, and a couple spare pair of socks doesn't solve the problem. But Im still basically a noob and haven't figured it all out yet.

Yeah unless you are camping someplace where it is relatively warm at night, anything that is wet by sunset is going to be damp in the morning. But trail runners will dry during the day pretty quickly if you have dry weather.

When hiking in the sierra nevada in summer I have literally soaked them walking through a river and had them dry after ~30 minutes of walking. It was extremely liberating when I found out I could do this, after being used to doing the shoe shuffle with my boots any time there was water above my ankle (or having wet boots the rest of the trip). Even in humid and damp climates, if I can find someplace windy during the day like on top of a ridge, I can substantially dry wet trail runners pretty quickly. Fat chance of anything like that happening with my waterproof boots.

Also, with boots, if I wanted to refresh my feet by dipping them in a nice cool lake or river after miles of hiking, I had to take off my boots, and my socks, dry my feet before putting my boots back on....now I can just dunk my feet into a nice cold lake without even taking my shoes off, then continue on my merry way. Little pleasures like this have definitely made trail runners the undisputed king of 3-season hiking in non-terrible climates, for me.

In winter I have not found any way to avoid damp shoes eventually. Really I just aim to not have them freeze because holy poo poo does that suck. I haven't tried anything like waterproof/neoprene socks or vapor barrier layers yet.

Morbus
May 18, 2004

Picnic Princess posted:

I've never really found it to be too much of an issue for us, it tends to get quite cold at night here and they're both mummy style so we cinch it as tight as possible. If either of us get too hot, we tend to just pull an arm out and that releases enough heat, like when you're in bed and you let a foot out to cool off.


We have two Ridgerests, this style:



A gap can sometimes happen, but I find that they don't really slide around too much. The bags slide over them much more than they slide against tent material.

Ah OK. We didn't really have problems when we were using two foam pads. But my gf especially really prefers inflatable pads now and I don't think there is any going back. I think the reason we get a gap is that our inflatable pads are mummy shaped, so there is no real way they can be completely touching. Also they are super slippery against each other, which doesn't help.

CopperHound
Feb 14, 2012

What do backpackers do about washing clothes? I'm assuming it is bad form to wash in/near a fresh water source, but I can't recall ever seeing any sort of wash basin on gear lists.

E: I'm picturing someone washing one sock at a time in their jetboil.

CopperHound fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Jun 16, 2017

SulfurMonoxideCute
Feb 9, 2008

I was under direct orders not to die
🐵❌💀

I guess it depends how long you're out for. I tend to do 5-7 day trips so I just take an extra shirt or two and some extra undies and socks and don't bother washing anything until I'm home.

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Morbus
May 18, 2004

As far as just rinsing dirt and dust away water works fine. Unless you poo poo your pants I don't think it's an issue rinsing your clothes or yourself off at the source.

I don't think actual laundering with soap is necessary. I guess if you really want to you could just put some water + baking soda or mild soap in a ziploc with your clothes and squish it around. But why bother?

If you are getting too stinky for comfort, merino wool is pretty great at staying relatively unoffensive after extended wearing. It can be expensive buying at full retail price but it's pretty easy to find good deals online. You can pretty routinely find icebreaker shirts that go for something ridiculous like $100 new for ~20 bucks on geartrade.com, often in excellent condition.

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