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Captain_Maclaine
Sep 30, 2001

Every moment I'm alive, I pray for death!

Coolguye posted:

i think cape cod happened because the test models ended up killing a few dozen golden eagles and they couldn't figure out how to not have the project kill off the local beloved charismatic megafauna. i might be mixing that up with one of the eastern seaboard projects tho.

That may be what they said, but the real reason is that the flatlanders who live down there are rich assholes who think windmills mar the scenery.

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Coolguye
Jul 6, 2011

Required by his programming!
honestly if a gas or coal plant killed eagles of any sort the company would end up in a class-action so fast their heads would spin so regardless of what the root reason was those turbine owners probably got off easy

crazy cloud
Nov 7, 2012

by Cyrano4747
Lipstick Apathy
Lmao How Is Nuclear Power Even Real Neoliberal Like Just Use Less Electricity Like Turn Off Your Television Hahahaha

Corky Romanovsky
Oct 1, 2006

Soiled Meat

Proud Christian Mom posted:

Turns out opposing nuclear power at every opportunity wasn't really good environmental policy

Al!
Apr 2, 2010

:coolspot::coolspot::coolspot::coolspot::coolspot:
thanks boomers

Condiv
May 7, 2008

Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod


so, i was smoking a joint and thinking of ways the us nuclear industry could bounce back with kids and then i realized... ANIME! millenials love anime! so if we made an anime about nuclear power plants saving the world or something kids would love them

then i remembered that japanese companies often create cutesy mascots to represent them for this very reason, like for example this guy:



he makes prison seem more fun or something. anyway, that got me to thinking, did the fukushima plant owner have a mascot? yes!



that's denko-chan. she wants you to be friends with electricity. tepco had her as a mascot for a long time with stuff like oven mitts and other things having her face on them. she also had other friends like plutonium-kun:



and they had an anime once too! (that was pulled after a short while)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRvVrYg-XBQ

the anime was pulled cause in it, plutonium-kun has a small childe drink a glass of liquid plutonium while saying: “I’m hardly absorbed by your stomach or intestines and I’m expelled by your body, so in fact I can’t kill people at all”.

if you would like to read more you can here:

https://spikejapan.wordpress.com/2011/04/02/after-the-earthquake-so-farewell-then-plutonium-kun/

edit: sorry, plutonium boy is actually plutonium-kun

Condiv has issued a correction as of 23:56 on Apr 26, 2017

Al!
Apr 2, 2010

:coolspot::coolspot::coolspot::coolspot::coolspot:

Condiv posted:

the anime was pulled cause in it, plutonium boy has a small childe drink a glass of liquid plutonium while saying: “I’m hardly absorbed by your stomach or intestines and I’m expelled by your body, so in fact I can’t kill people at all”.

its really bizarre that this happened in the only country to have widespread first-hand experience with radiation-related illnesses

Condiv
May 7, 2008

Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod


here's the nuclear anime: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoAXpM94f2k

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

The problem is that they didn't give Denko-chan more sex appeal. Maybe make her emit radiation when she's feeling bashful. She'd be like "It's not like I like you or anything..." with red cheeks and then everyone in the surrounding area would begin to display symptoms of radiation sickness.

Harold Fjord
Jan 3, 2004
Does anyone find that when they say good things about nuclear power, people into renewables get really agitated? Like they know that this cool new technology could save us all from climate change and they know they are utterly failing to pull it off and it's killing them.

Dairy Days
Dec 26, 2007

Nevvy Z posted:

Does anyone find that when they say good things about nuclear power, people into renewables get really agitated? Like they know that this cool new technology could save us all from climate change and they know they are utterly failing to pull it off and it's killing them.

sometimes but more often they agree ime

Concerned Citizen
Jul 22, 2007
Ramrod XTreme

Nevvy Z posted:

Does anyone find that when they say good things about nuclear power, people into renewables get really agitated? Like they know that this cool new technology could save us all from climate change and they know they are utterly failing to pull it off and it's killing them.

renewables are experiencing massive growth while westinghouse goes bankrupt trying to build 4 reactors. i'm pretty sure renewables are ahead here

even existing nuclear plants are increasingly economically uncompetitive. exelon is getting 2.4 billion in subsidies from the state of illinois to keep its unprofitable reactors open. new york is paying 7.6 billion to prevents its reactors from closing.

Concerned Citizen has issued a correction as of 01:54 on Apr 27, 2017

rudatron
May 31, 2011

by Fluffdaddy
The only reason they're uncompetitive is because of social opposition, and regulation basically designed to make building them as expensive and long as possible. There's nothing inherent to nuke plants that mean they should take long to build, they like large sale deployment of renewables require high up front capital costs.

rudatron
May 31, 2011

by Fluffdaddy
You're also missing the key issue if you're just interpreting 'expensive energy' as meaning 'more money spent by poors'. Energy isn't like an iphone or whatever, it has a low price elasticity. Shortages of energy mean that the price must increase until demand decreases to the new availability, and energy's low elasticity means that even minor shortages could lead to price doubling or tripling.

But even that didn't quite get to the heart of it, because you're fetishizing money as representing value, rather than being a medium of exchange. You nees to take a system view: total industrial output is proportional to energy consumption. Less total energy necessitates less total output, and no taxation or subsidy scheme is going to change that fundamental mathematics. Less total output means a drop of QoL across the board.

Vox Nihili
May 28, 2008

rudatron posted:

The only reason they're uncompetitive is because of social opposition, and regulation basically designed to make building them as expensive and long as possible. There's nothing inherent to nuke plants that mean they should take long to build, they like large sale deployment of renewables require high up front capital costs.

I think the regulations are mostly meant to keep them from killing people.

Dairy Days
Dec 26, 2007

what would happen to the cost of solar if you regulated it til it killed less people per kwh than nuclear

crazy cloud
Nov 7, 2012

by Cyrano4747
Lipstick Apathy
stop loving with atoms the audacity of you fuckers

we could be drinking filtered river water and communing with nature in a Pan-worshipping state of Edenistic Hedonistic Utopia but you need to build nuclear reactors to charge your iphones?


you're sick in the loving head all of you electrocucks

rudatron
May 31, 2011

by Fluffdaddy
Human beings and their livestock represent about 98% of the biomass of terrestrial vertebrates - there is no nature to go back to, and even if there were, it would not have a carrying capacity in the billions.

The Haber-Bosch process, fractional distillation, smelting and polymerization - these kinds of processes are now as necessary for humans as breathing. Humans have become industrial animals, not simply exercising their will through technology, but totally dependent the existence of technology and its reproduction, for its own existence. The fluctuations in economic activity - recession, gdp, dollar value - have replaced what were the primal forces of nature - rain, erosion, migrations of animals - as the dominating factor for people's lives.

It is therefore not a simple thing to hand wave away the economic effects of the cost of energy as totally irrelevant, or merely a symptom of capitalism. That's just not the case. The issue is of the forces of production and their effects, not modes of production.

An economy with a jeb!/low-energy consumption has a real world cost on the lives of real human beings, and that cost is high. It is not simply the loss of luxury products, which one could presumably overcome through a more austere lifestyle. It represents more serious malaise. Econonic uncertainity, job losses and unemployment, economic dysfunction, and the myriad of social ills that flow from those causes, both minor and major: crime, violence, instability, etc.

There is therefore no other option but to gently caress with atoms, and more generally act with audacity. The state of edenic hedonism you desire has never existed before in human history, and the only possibility for its real world manifestation lies through further economic and technological development and exploitation, not by the rejection of that stuff.

crazy cloud
Nov 7, 2012

by Cyrano4747
Lipstick Apathy

rudatron posted:


An economy with a jeb!/low-energy consumption has a real world cost on the lives of real human beings, and that cost is high. It is not simply the loss of luxury products, which one could presumably overcome through a more austere lifestyle. It represents more serious malaise. Econonic uncertainity, job losses and unemployment, economic dysfunction, and the myriad of social ills that flow from those causes, both minor and major: crime, violence, instability, etc.

There is therefore no other option but to gently caress with atoms, and more generally act with audacity. The state of edenic hedonism you desire has never existed before in human history, and the only possibility for its real world manifestation lies through further economic and technological development and exploitation, not by the rejection of that stuff.

it's a cool argument but it kind of seems like you just started from its conclusion and bullshitted back to premises that do not hold i m o :|

rudatron
May 31, 2011

by Fluffdaddy
Nah

rudatron
May 31, 2011

by Fluffdaddy
I got triggered by 'electrocuck'

crazy cloud
Nov 7, 2012

by Cyrano4747
Lipstick Apathy
i don't believe in 'more serious malaise' as a concept, for one;

crazy cloud
Nov 7, 2012

by Cyrano4747
Lipstick Apathy

rudatron posted:

I got triggered by 'electrocuck'

extremely keep Summer safe Rick's spaceship voice]: "muh electrons, irradiate the world because i must have my cheap electrons" that's you, you that's what you sound like



i'm just playin i'm not anti nuclear power plant it's just an obviously fuckin dumb idea but go nuts i guess roll the dice and build the fucken things :patriot:

Corky Romanovsky
Oct 1, 2006

Soiled Meat
*wipes brow* now that we have crazy cloud's blessing...

Jewel Repetition
Dec 24, 2012

Ask me about Briar Rose and Chicken Chaser.

rudatron posted:

The only reason they're uncompetitive is because of social opposition, and regulation basically designed to make building them as expensive and long as possible. There's nothing inherent to nuke plants that mean they should take long to build, they like large sale deployment of renewables require high up front capital costs.

What are some unreasonably burdening regulations on nuclear power plants?

rudatron
May 31, 2011

by Fluffdaddy
http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~blc/book/chapter9.html

rudatron
May 31, 2011

by Fluffdaddy
CANDU reactors showed that its nothing to do with the tech itself, it's political bullshit that in the long run only helped the fossil fuel industry, read: coal.

A large scale rollout can be done affordably, quickly and safely, if you commit to maybe a couple of highly standardized, prefabricated designs, that you mass produce in a factory then transport throughout the rest of the country. The limiting factor on the speed of that is building the factory and collecting the capital for it to happen, which as projects like the three gorges dam shows, can occur quickly if you have the political will.

That lets you amortize design costs like safety testing and such, and further brings down your per reactor costs, which is your largest cost in nuke $/MWh

Coolguye
Jul 6, 2011

Required by his programming!
Another way to look at what rudatron is saying is if we want things beyond hand to mouth subsistence, we have to make something serve us. It's the definition of poverty to consume only that which you produce. Prosperity means consuming the labor of others.

So we can enslave plants, enslave some animals, but it's fairly limited. After you get some cool stuff from them - some leather for shoes from a cow and something resembling a predictable cereal input from enslaved corn, you have to enslave more. You have to have something more working for you to have medicine, internet, and cell phones. At that point, you have two major choices: enslave atoms, and by proxy force black metals, black liquids, and black rocks to work for you, or enslave others, and force black people to work for you.

There is no third option here.

rudatron
May 31, 2011

by Fluffdaddy
That's a really, really dumb way of thinking about it, and I think I speak for everyone, when I say we are all dumber for having read it.

edit: To be a little less flippant and a lot less disrespectful: your 'black = slave' literary device is pretty insensitive, and the supposition that prosperity is necessarily built on enslavement ignores that labor (and slavery) are social relations, while the consumption of coal or whatever is not. Slavery is dehumanizing precisely because it's treating human beings as instruments, to extend that over into actual instruments, even as a bit of rhetorical flourish, is putting the cart before the horse.

rudatron has issued a correction as of 09:07 on Apr 27, 2017

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 272 days!

Corky Romanovsky posted:

*wipes brow* now that we have crazy cloud's blessing...

future generations will look back at this as the turning point

and dream of a time before the coming of the plutonium lizards

Lamebot
Sep 8, 2005

ロボ顔菌~♡

Coolguye posted:

Another way to look at what rudatron is saying is if we want things beyond hand to mouth subsistence, we have to make something serve us. It's the definition of poverty to consume only that which you produce. Prosperity means consuming the labor of others.

So we can enslave plants, enslave some animals, but it's fairly limited. After you get some cool stuff from them - some leather for shoes from a cow and something resembling a predictable cereal input from enslaved corn, you have to enslave more. You have to have something more working for you to have medicine, internet, and cell phones. At that point, you have two major choices: enslave atoms, and by proxy force black metals, black liquids, and black rocks to work for you, or enslave others, and force black people to work for you.

There is no third option here.

wtf am I reading

Captain_Maclaine
Sep 30, 2001

Every moment I'm alive, I pray for death!

Lamebot posted:

wtf am I reading

Harold Fjord
Jan 3, 2004
He's just restating the classic "moving away from subsistence lifestyle allows some people to pursue other activities than spending all their time just feeding themselves" type deal but he tried to be poetic about it and hosed it all up.

the bitcoin of weed
Nov 1, 2014

Coolguye posted:

Prosperity means consuming the labor of others.

*communist screeching*

Coolguye
Jul 6, 2011

Required by his programming!

rudatron posted:

That's a really, really dumb way of thinking about it, and I think I speak for everyone, when I say we are all dumber for having read it.

edit: To be a little less flippant and a lot less disrespectful: your 'black = slave' literary device is pretty insensitive, and the supposition that prosperity is necessarily built on enslavement ignores that labor (and slavery) are social relations, while the consumption of coal or whatever is not. Slavery is dehumanizing precisely because it's treating human beings as instruments, to extend that over into actual instruments, even as a bit of rhetorical flourish, is putting the cart before the horse.

I'm not ignoring that at all. That's the entire point. The entire reason slavery is so unforgivable is because it reduces people to objects. Would it have been better if I'd left off the color adjectives and implicitly ignored the fact that one specific race of people was explicitly targeted to be dehumanized and exploited for centuries?

If that honestly would have made it more acceptable then fine I can accept that but it strikes me as fairly insensitive to not point out the real results of cannibalizing labor from others.

Coolguye has issued a correction as of 15:30 on Apr 27, 2017

brugroffil
Nov 30, 2015


Coolguye posted:

it reduces people to objects.

:capitalism:

net work error
Feb 26, 2011

brugroffil posted:

Turkey Point in south Florida has hundreds of miles of cooling channels that alligators like to chill in.

e: I think the big cooling ponds actually circulate the water back into the plant, typically. At least for ones that aren't on oceans/rivers/big natural lakes.

The ponds haven't been working too great though.
http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/environmental-groups-sue-fpl-over-turkey-point-pollution-in-biscayne-bay-8597017
http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/florida-keys-demand-fpl-stop-using-leaking-turkey-point-cooling-canals-9142718
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/environment/article73233802.html

brugroffil
Nov 30, 2015


That's not shocking to me as Turkey Point is sort of a shithole. It's located right next door to Biscayne Bay National Park.

Badger of Basra
Jul 26, 2007

do we have an actual honest to god primitivist itt

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crazy cloud
Nov 7, 2012

by Cyrano4747
Lipstick Apathy

Badger of Basra posted:

do we have an actual honest to god primitivist itt

:drac:

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