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I loving loved The Prestige. I was a bit late to the Nolan Hype Train, having only seen Memento on DVD, but when The Prestige came out I could not have been more excited bar some kind of "Hal Hartley hired to helm Highlander reboot" miracle. My then-fiance and several friends saw it opening night. Loved it. Everything about it. Mind blown! I was infuriated and awed that I had been fooled by the twin reveal despite the absolute mountain of clues the film gives you. I did not even suspect. This is the reason the film is great, and the hardest thing to do is figure out how the Nolans did it. I haven't watched it in a while, though, so last night I did so. I still loved Bale's performance - strike that, the performance of everyone, aside from the excruciating monologue from Jackman after he gets shot. I recall that being the only thing I didn't like the first time I saw it, as well. But, well, I guess I should just get to the point. It's Tesla. It's the science stuff. It ruins it. It just... it actually kind of ruins the film for me. Mind you, the script does its best with the premise of Tesla and his machine - the scene where the theater owner says they have to dress it up, you can't show real magic, it's great. And it's the problem the film has! We are never given any doubt - in fact we're given explicit onscreen proof - that the machine does what it does. The movie is breaking the rule it's setting for itself. In another story, The Machine would be fantastic - the existential crisis of wondering if Angier is "the man in the box" or "the man in the Prestige" is a fascinating one. Is the "clone" the one where the "consciousness" of Angier is? Or is it in both? Or neither? Or does that question even make sense anymore? When Angier comes out for the Prestige, does he think he's "the same one" that walked into the box, every time? But he would never know for sure, would he? But the problem is the film isn't about, and shouldn't be about, Tesla's Machine at all. It's Borden's story, and the story of a competition. The Machine casts such a long shadow over the film, especially on review, that even when the thematics do match up - Angier finally "getting his hands dirty" - one can't help but think the story could have gotten there in a different, better, more perfect way.
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Apr 24, 2017 02:54
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We're never told what the guy saw before that qualified as "real magic." But it's the same as Borden's trick. It's reality, but it's too simple so that audience doesn't know have time to react. You see this all the time in the real world. You can show someone a wonder of technology and it's boring. Look at space travel. We put people on the moon! In orbit! But it's lot of bureaucracy and processes, it's not exciting unless you dress it up.
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Apr 24, 2017 04:53
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The Angier that doesn't drown has never drowned so he wouldn't know what drowning was like the movie gets 1/5 stars imo
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Apr 24, 2017 05:20
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jay z's sedan posted:The Angier that doesn't drown has never drowned so he wouldn't know what drowning was like the movie gets 1/5 stars imo Angier drowns every performance, what are you talking about? As Tesla said, "they're both your hat."
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Apr 24, 2017 05:24
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SimonCat posted:Angier drowns every performance, what are you talking about? Except NO!!! one of them always lives and the one that lives has the memory of always living 
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Apr 24, 2017 05:45
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jay z's sedan posted:Except NO!!! one of them always lives and the one that lives has the memory of always living Where did Angier1a go? And why are there 3 Angierb's? The machine makes a clone of whatever is put in it. There are dozens of drowned Angiers by the end. How can you say that Angier never drowned? He drowned every night!
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Apr 24, 2017 05:58
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SimonCat posted:Where did Angier1a go? And why are there 3 Angierb's? 1a becomes 1b as a new revision obviously this increments with every iteration. The other 1b is a typo and should be 1a. You can clearly see that I'm right. It's simple really just look at it.
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Apr 24, 2017 06:05
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jay z's sedan posted:1a becomes 1b as a new revision obviously this increments with every iteration. The other 1b is a typo and should be 1a. You can clearly see that I'm right. It's simple really just look at it. Dude drowns himself every performance. He literally kills himself in service to his art. I mean, dying for applause is as dedicated as you can get!
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Apr 24, 2017 06:31
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SimonCat posted:Dude drowns himself every performance. He literally kills himself in service to his art. I mean, dying for applause is as dedicated as you can get! I think you are missing the point. He does die every night but the one that lives has no memory of ever dying because the only clones that have the experience of dying are dead....get it. What I'm saying is he is a pussy
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Apr 24, 2017 06:37
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If Angier cloned himself 9 times and killed 9 of them would you say that 0 Angiers actually died because the one didn't experience dying?
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Apr 24, 2017 07:41
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jay z's sedan posted:I think you are missing the point. He does die every night but the one that lives has no memory of ever dying because the only clones that have the experience of dying are dead....get it. The first time Angier used the machine one Angier shot the other one. The remaining Angier then drowned. The original Angier is long dead by the end of the movie. And it doesn't really matter because they are all Angier.
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Apr 24, 2017 08:14
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In case it isn't obvious, the irony is that the twins demonstrate that he could have pulled off the trick without dying by just using the machine once and not killing himself
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Apr 24, 2017 08:18
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Capntastic posted:If Angier cloned himself 9 times and killed 9 of them would you say that 0 Angiers actually died because the one didn't experience dying? If he killed 9 how did 0 die? 9 does not equal 0
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Apr 24, 2017 08:18
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Hodgepodge posted:In case it isn't obvious, the irony is that the twins demonstrate that he could have pulled off the trick without dying by just using the machine once and not killing himself jesus I never thought of that. what a loving idiot he is, and also I am. I think I just made myself hate the Prestige
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Apr 24, 2017 10:40
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Hodgepodge posted:In case it isn't obvious, the irony is that the twins demonstrate that he could have pulled off the trick without dying by just using the machine once and not killing himself 
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Apr 24, 2017 18:07
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Hodgepodge posted:In case it isn't obvious, the irony is that the twins demonstrate that he could have pulled off the trick without dying by just using the machine once and not killing himself I'm...I'm gonna go lie down now
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Apr 24, 2017 18:31
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precision posted:But, well, I guess I should just get to the point. It's Tesla. It's the science stuff. It ruins it. It just... it actually kind of ruins the film for me. If I'm understanding correctly, your complaint is that the machine is actually magic, right? If so I'd make this point: how do you know it's magic? As Arthur C. Clarke said, sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
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Apr 24, 2017 18:45
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Doesn't the film make a point of saying having identical copies of yourself is intolerable to either copy? The twin thing works because they're not the same person.
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Apr 24, 2017 18:46
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Hodgepodge posted:In case it isn't obvious, the irony is that the twins demonstrate that he could have pulled off the trick without dying by just using the machine once and not killing himself He would never though, because the conceit is that Jackman wanted the applause for himself, if he was fine sharing the spotlight, he would've continued using the drunk lookalike instead of resorting to
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Apr 24, 2017 18:51
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Ammanas posted:Doesn't the film make a point of saying having identical copies of yourself is intolerable to either copy? The twin thing works because they're not the same person. Right, Angier specifically says "I wouldn't want to live like that" and the first thing we see as proof that it worked is one cat going to fight its copy. What makes it even worse is that if he were ever found out he could just say he's had a twin all his life and his family was ashamed of one of them (so one is "Angier" and one is "Cordlow") since we can easily deduce that most or all of his family is dead. Spatulater bro! posted:If I'm understanding correctly, your complaint is that the machine is actually magic, right? No, it's that the machine is unnecessary for the story and on rewatch I realized it dominated far too much screentime and that it somewhat overshadows the more fascinating story of Freddie. precision fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Apr 24, 2017 |
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Apr 24, 2017 20:45
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Isn't Nolan's thing that the subject of the film is usually a reference to the art of film making? Nolan doesn't care if the machine doesn't make sense how it works, or there isn't sufficient explanation as to how it might work. Nolan's point is that the machine, like films are about spectacle and amazing audiences and surprising them. If he can get you to suspend disbelief and buy into the idea of the machine at least once then he wins - everyone will find out how the magic works with time, or find the flaws in the plot. I remember watching The Prestige because everyone told me it was awesome. I thought "sure, a film about magicians with Hugh Jackman. That should be diverting". I could not believe how god-damned dark the film got at the end. I haven't watched it again, I haven't spent time thinking about flaws in the film; I just remember how surprised I was at the end.
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Apr 25, 2017 02:42
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Ammanas posted:Doesn't the film make a point of saying having identical copies of yourself is intolerable to either copy? The twin thing works because they're not the same person. It doesn't help that Angier also hates himself and has a death wish. He wants to drown, and he wants to see himself drown. Note that he stores his own drowned bodies instead of disposing of them.
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Apr 25, 2017 07:43
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I think perhaps if you look into your eyes every night as you see yourself realizing, panicking, struggling and succumbing to suffocation which, mind you, is a process immensely edited down by the movie, you might have a wee bit of a notion what it's like to drown. Maybe you take a midnight stroll through your Drowned You Galleria afterward to make doubly sure of your understanding.
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Apr 25, 2017 10:01
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"I don't know, do I really understand this without personally experiencing it myself?" *Gazes upon a ghastly house of mirrors, some in various states of bloat and decomposition. Others stare back, a twisted visage of horror frozen, reflected in dead eyes. All once men, each has been witnessed in his transformation to tortuous wraith and kept preserved in Narcissus's private tomb.* *Remembers that night the same question was posed about butt sex.* "Nope, I guess not!"
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Apr 25, 2017 10:16
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Hodgepodge posted:In case it isn't obvious, the irony is that the twins demonstrate that he could have pulled off the trick without dying by just using the machine once and not killing himself Fair point, except in practice it ends up working like precision posted:What makes it even worse is that if he were ever found out he could just say he's had a twin all his life and his family was ashamed of one of them (so one is "Angier" and one is "Cordlow") since we can easily deduce that most or all of his family is dead. and the problem is that Angier very explicitly does not like being who he was born to be, the aristocratic "Lord Coldlow", and tells his wife as such in their single conversation before she dies in the tank escape trick. He's the artistic black sheep of his very rich family and only returns to his old life because it's what sacrifice means to him- that's why Borden scoffs at Angier's take on "sacrifice" when he's dying of a gunshot. They didn't seem that ashamed of him if he returned to live large in that massive estate and was able to dip into their finances the entire movie; Angier's just an example of the idle rich. Sacrifice isn't running back to the comfort of Angier's monied life (which he made frequent use of, even when he was stateside), it's what the Bordens put themselves through to maintain the illusion. ElectricSheep fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Apr 26, 2017 |
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Apr 26, 2017 00:41
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Also OP the gimmicky machine fits in perfectly with the notion that the plot of the movie itself follows the path of Pledge, Turn, Prestige the same way all of the magic tricks had some sort of vaguely explained and defined mechanism driving them. I just dismissed Tesla's cloning machine to the same place as the collapsible birdcage, the hollow ramrod, and however the gently caress Borden got out of his prison chains ElectricSheep fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Apr 26, 2017 |
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Apr 26, 2017 00:43
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There's also the fact that Angier is told how Borden did the trick the very first time he sees it. Caine's character tells him it's a double, and Angier rejects it. He, like the audience, needs to believe it's something more fantastical.
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Apr 26, 2017 01:38
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Hodgepodge posted:In case it isn't obvious, the irony is that the twins demonstrate that he could have pulled off the trick without dying by just using the machine once and not killing himself Is this not the first thing everyone thought after watching the movie for the first time?
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Apr 26, 2017 05:44
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precision posted:Mind blown! I was infuriated and awed that I had been fooled by the twin reveal despite the absolute mountain of clues the film gives you. I did not even suspect. This is the reason the film is great, and the hardest thing to do is figure out how the Nolans did it. precision posted:No, it's that the machine is unnecessary for the story and on rewatch I realized it dominated far too much screentime and that it somewhat overshadows the more fascinating story of Freddie. To me, this suggests that, if not for the distraction of the latter, you may not have experienced the greatness of the former. So what makes you hate the film now, is part of what made you love it in the first place. The fact that it dominates screentime, is more showy and overshadows the more fascinating story, is not only intentional, but thematic and ties into the plot of the film's more important trick/deception. Which makes me like the film more, not less, even if it means repeat viewings can never capture the magic (  tried to think of any other word to put there) of the intial revelations.
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Apr 26, 2017 12:08
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raditts posted:Is this not the first thing everyone thought after watching the movie for the first time? Nope, I'm very very stupid.
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Apr 26, 2017 13:00
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raditts posted:Is this not the first thing everyone thought after watching the movie for the first time? No because Angier didn't remotely have the discipline to live the life Borden did. When Angier starts using the double, immediately he's trying to figure out a way to get up on stage to enjoy the accolades. There's no way the clone or the original would be happy hiding half the time. It also seems unlikely that they would be able to live with the other existing because how do you know which one is the "real" one?
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Apr 26, 2017 14:18
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Like his Batman movies and the black hole portion of Interstellar, Nolan is able to get across some goofy out there and sometimes even comical ideas in such an earnest manner that I always find them compelling. I love the machine and Telsa in The Prestige because it's hilarious. A dude uses the most groundbreaking discovery in human history for the most petty of purposes. To outdo someone who is just using a body double. There is also something to be said for the alternative reads of The Prestige being, like Inception, a meditation on film itself. You essentially have a guy who invests in insane technology to get something that's just as good as a practical effect. It's Nolan dude. There is a computer program that can erase your entire history and love is a force on par with gravity. Putting in insane stuff that thematically works but is not deeply explored is what he does. Getting salty because he doesn't explore the machine is missing the one of the best parts of Nolan as a storyteller. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Apr 26, 2017 |
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Apr 26, 2017 15:54
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Hodgepodge posted:In case it isn't obvious, the irony is that the twins demonstrate that he could have pulled off the trick without dying by just using the machine once and not killing himself Chalk me up as someone who did not think of this. That's great.
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Apr 26, 2017 16:08
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He could've but it would've really undercut the character - he's so desperate to receive the applause that he doesn't even for a moment consider that option. It'd also be a less interesting movie.
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Apr 26, 2017 16:25
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His need for the limelight and the applause of the crowd is one of the main reasons why he never catches on to how Borden is doing the trick. He doesn't see a body double as a possibility because he can't conceive of a performer who wouldn't care about being the one to soak up the applause.
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Apr 26, 2017 16:30
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This thread is making myself enjoy The Prestige more.
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Apr 26, 2017 22:52
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well why not posted:He could've but it would've really undercut the character - he's so desperate to receive the applause that he doesn't even for a moment consider that option. It'd also be a less interesting movie. As already mentioned, his self-murder collection sure was grotesque as gently caress though. Doesn't that also mean, though, that either he or the clone has to willingly go to their death, sacrificing themselves for the adulation of the other? They're literally the same person, so it's not like you could say that the one that gets in the tank doesn't know how things are going to turn out for him.
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Apr 26, 2017 23:51
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raditts posted:As already mentioned, his self-murder collection sure was grotesque as gently caress though. The movie basically treats the clone as a separate entity, it doesn't really explore what it would mean for a single consciousness to be split into two different physical bodies, and then further what would happen if one of those bodies died.
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Apr 27, 2017 00:19
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He could've made a million clones and stormed every capitol in the world too, and made everyone applaud or die
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Apr 27, 2017 00:55
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He could've filled the audience with himself and watch his own handiwork.
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Apr 27, 2017 03:45
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