|
I guess I need to rewatch The Prestige again because I was sure the difference between the Bordens was a comment on man's inner struggle, which would be kinda dumb if they were just regular twins.
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2017 20:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 7, 2024 20:21 |
|
|
Grendels Dad posted:I guess I need to rewatch The Prestige again because I was sure the difference between the Bordens was a comment on man's inner struggle, which would be kinda dumb if they were just regular twins. They're not regular twins though, they've lived basically their entire lives as half a person, so in effect the theme your describing is conveyed through them, even if technically they aren't the same person.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2017 20:51
|
|
|
Right, each one is half of Alfred Borden. It might undercut the themes if "Fallon" had a whole life of his own but that's clearly not the case, he couldn't even talk to people as Fallon. Any time one of the twins wasn't "Alfred" they were basically in limbo.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2017 21:01
|
|
|
Dead Ringers has a similar theme going on with two twins who really aren't fully developed people on their own. They only succeed in life when they combine themselves into one fictional person.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2017 21:13
|
|
|
Basebf555 posted:They're not regular twins though, they've lived basically their entire lives as half a person, so in effect the theme your describing is conveyed through them, even if technically they aren't the same person. That's a relief, but I still need to rewatch it to figure out how I could be so sure that Borden had used the machine.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2017 21:43
|
|
|
Basebf555 posted:Dead Ringers has a similar theme going on with two twins who really aren't fully developed people on their own. They only succeed in life when they combine themselves into one fictional person. That movie is also fantastic and everyone should watch it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2017 22:10
|
|
|
Grendels Dad posted:That's a relief, but I still need to rewatch it to figure out how I could be so sure that Borden had used the machine. Borden absolutely did use the machine. Also during the second time loop there are actually three Michael Caines. Watch closely.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2017 00:01
|
|
|
ozmunkeh posted:Borden absolutely did use the machine. Also during the second time loop there are actually three Michael Caines. Watch closely. I was aware of the Bigger Caine theory, but I didn't notice the third one. Nice.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2017 09:19
|
|
|
Grendels Dad posted:I guess I need to rewatch The Prestige again because I was sure the difference between the Bordens was a comment on man's inner struggle, which would be kinda dumb if they were just regular twins. They're regular twins. It's telegraphed very early in the movie because Angier and Borden see a trick (a disappearing fish bowl or something like that) and Borden, unlike Angier, is able to figure out that the trick involves the performer pretending he's a frail old man (when in reality he's strong enough to hide this fish bowl between his legs and walk away with it). Angier does not see tricks the same way, so he does not realize the Borden trick is done with twins because the idea that someone could go through that insane amount of effort is inconceivable to him (as it should be, it's the most ridiculous part of the movie).
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2017 00:58
|
|
|
Ammanas posted:Doesn't the film make a point of saying having identical copies of yourself is intolerable to either copy? The twin thing works because they're not the same person. Clones are just artificial twins though. Your clone isn't you just a new person with the same DNA.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2017 14:23
|
|
|
FreudianSlippers posted:Clones are just artificial twins though. Your clone isn't you just a new person with the same DNA. Clones made with a magic cloning machine are whatever the story says they are.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2017 16:55
|
|
|
Pedro De Heredia posted:They're regular twins. The big part of the trick with the fish bowl is that the performer is able to keep up the old man act even when not on stage, etc. I think Borden follows him and sees him at home and realizes his dedication to the trick extends beyond the stage to his whole life. Kind of like Borden/Fallons dedication to their disguise.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2017 17:04
|
|
|
FreudianSlippers posted:Clones are just artificial twins though. Your clone isn't you just a new person with the same DNA. And your exact same memories up to that point. Which, while I'm not a twin myself, am pretty sure is a marked difference.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2017 18:51
|
|
|
GoldStandardConure posted:The big part of the trick with the fish bowl is that the performer is able to keep up the old man act even when not on stage, etc. I think Borden follows him and sees him at home and realizes his dedication to the trick extends beyond the stage to his whole life. Might be that this is part of the reason for my confusion/simply forgetting about their being twins. Because here is a scene that fully explains how Borden and Fallon got their idea for the switcharoo, but they would have had to have started a lot earlier in order to fool people the way they did. I'm aware that twins have pretty close relations but it's described as "each of them living one half of the same life", you'd need to have a bit of practice for that. Unless I am again forgetting something and Borden explicitly mentions that he was, like, five years old when he saw that guy. Grendels Dad fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Apr 30, 2017 |
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2017 19:02
|
|
|
Das Boo posted:And your exact same memories up to that point. Which, while I'm not a twin myself, am pretty sure is a marked difference. It's a difference but it's still just an artificial twin and a totally separate person even if it has fake memories of someone else implanted.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2017 19:10
|
|
|
Borden doesn't have to follow the Chinese guy home to see through his trick (straight away, even, as Angier says), because he (they) have been doing the same thing their entire lives.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2017 19:26
|
|
|
Shanty posted:Borden doesn't have to follow the Chinese guy home to see through his trick (straight away, even, as Angier says), because he (they) have been doing the same thing their entire lives. I think I outed myself as a dumbass through The Prestige.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2017 19:30
|
|
|
Grendels Dad posted:I think I outed myself as a dumbass through The Prestige. Google "prestige theories" if you want to feel better about yourself.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2017 19:46
|
|
|
FreudianSlippers posted:It's a difference but it's still just an artificial twin and a totally separate person even if it has fake memories of someone else implanted. The machine is implied to create an exact copy with total continuity of memory. As far as either individual is concerned, they are both the "original" because they both have complete memories of their entire lives. They only diverge at the point of creation but one is instantly drowned and one continues. It isn't anything like natural twins or a twins made from actual, real world cloning technology. It's literally another Angier. He simultaneously lives and dies every night.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2017 21:57
|
|
|
It always blew my mind that Hugh Jackman played Gerald Root his "twin" for the disappearing man trick.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2017 21:57
|
|
|
FreudianSlippers posted:Clones are just artificial twins though. Your clone isn't you just a new person with the same DNA. There's a lot of a person's body that isn't determined by DNA. Fingerprints are a classic example.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2017 23:59
|
|
|
Granted its been years since I saw the film so some of the subtleties are probably forgotten.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 00:01
|
|
|
Hollismason posted:It always blew my mind that Hugh Jackman played Gerald Root his "twin" for the disappearing man trick. Before they cleaned him up I did in fact think "Wow, that guy does look a lot like Hugh Jackman" 
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2017 23:59
|
|
|
If anything took me out of the movie it was Hugh Jackman finding a random guy who just so happens to look EXACTLY like him. Go ahead and try that some time and see how long it takes.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 00:21
|
|
|
CityMidnightJunky posted:If anything took me out of the movie it was Hugh Jackman finding a random guy who just so happens to look EXACTLY like him. Go ahead and try that some time and see how long it takes. It adds something to Angier's character. He wins the goddamn lottery, and still isn't happy.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 01:42
|
|
|
Hollismason posted:It always blew my mind that Hugh Jackman played Gerald Root his "twin" for the disappearing man trick. I was always unsure if that was Hugh Jackman pulling double duty or they just lucked out with an imitator. Obviously it's Jackman, but he does such a good job of playing the part of this drunken, layabout doofus who is the key to Angier's success but also denies him what he really wants. God I love this movie.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 03:29
|
|
|
I thought for the longest time it was in fact a Hugh Jackman look a like, but it is Jackman. I don't know how they made Jackson look like himself but not . That guy is eerily like Jackman but just not. it's so loving weird.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 03:50
|
|
|
The makeup is amazing, they pushed it to the limit to where he anymore and he'd look like a caricature of himself, it's really subtle, like he's just slightly off enough that for a second you're like "drat this dude playing the double is amazing." I really like the part where Jackman and Caine are showing off the New Transported Man with the teleportation device, the producer is in awe and says it's been a long time since he's seen real magic. I forget if that guy is even in the movie outside of that scene and having like three lines but he really sold the "what the fuuuuuck" of it. This movie is so loving awesome.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 05:06
|
|
|
I just rewatched the beginning again and the first lines of Borden's journal are "We were two young men at the start of a career, two young men who never intended to hurt anyone". 
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2017 07:30
|
|
|
I didn't get around to watching this again over the weekend, but doesn't Borden only pull the teleporting man trick out a fair way into his career? Like he's doing alright, then he gets frustrated because people are jeering his ring tricks and then he starts "teleporting". Was that all part of their plan? To throw off people from thinking he had a twin because if he started out doing that trick people might suss him out?
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2017 10:40
|
|
|
Drunken Baker posted:I didn't get around to watching this again over the weekend, but doesn't Borden only pull the teleporting man trick out a fair way into his career? Like he's doing alright, then he gets frustrated because people are jeering his ring tricks and then he starts "teleporting". He pulls out the teleported man trick after the bullet catch goes badly, causing him to be both unwilling to do that trick anymore and hurting his ability to do other tricks. I'd assume that, yes, he was waiting until he had a show as big as his one as The Professor to reveal it, but had to jump the gun in order to have something impressive just to keep his career alive. One thing I picked up on a rewatch that I enjoyed was the scattered evidence of conflict between the Bordens. One of them lies about the knot he tied that killed Angier's wife, even to his twin, and the other doesn't believe him. They make contradictory decisions (e.g., whether to get a nicer home for "him" and his wife) when it's their turns to be Borden. Obviously they successfully stick together, but I appreciate the movie making clear that it's not easy even without showing us much of the two of them interacting. And I interpret the scene where Borden sits down with Angier's double to talk about how one's double has complete power over him as being, obviously a gambit, but also containing a lot of truth of Borden's actual experience. Christian Bale's performance helps with this, of course.
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2017 16:24
|
|
|
I didn't even think about that conversation regarding Angier and the double meaning. You can actually tell after a bit who the nice Borden and Decent Borden is and then the twin who is very cold and calculating. The twin who did not tie the knot was the one at the funeral. Also the twins have different views on what is great about magic. What's sad is the conversation at the end where he tells them that it was because of the look on their faces and the Borden twin who tied the wrong knot just doesn't get it but knows his brother would have. Hollismason fucked around with this message at 20:31 on May 2, 2017 |
|
#
?
May 2, 2017 20:29
|
|
|
Hollismason posted:Also the twins have different views on what is great about magic. What do you see this as being? But yeah, the movie really stands out for having the twins be different people even before the twist is revealed. One thing I saw elsewhere that I hadn't noticed, but would presumably make it much easier to track which is which:   Only one of them has a scar through their left eyebrow.
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2017 20:51
|
|
|
Electromax posted:The directors cut ending just has Angier saying gently caress it and cloning a 100 pound note over and over until he becomes the world's first trillionaire. This actually happens in the book - Angier funds all his complicated stage setup via duplicating cash.
|
|
#
?
May 2, 2017 21:25
|
|
|
Sir Kodiak posted:What do you see this as being? The nice Borden twin shares Angiers view of magic where he enjoys the look of people face when he shows them something wonderful. It's why the rear end in a top hat twin was crushed by what Angier says to him about that because he realizes Angier is saying probably something what his brother told him. Just through out the film you see the one brother really really that part of magic, but the other one loves magic because it's a great feat of concentration or ability / skill. It's why he raves about how how boring the magic their doing is at the beginning. He's driven to push the envelope on what he can do, the other loves it because of what it does to people. Angier internalizes this duality of magic, the twins are a external view of it. Angier really is two separate people in a weird way similar to the twins.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2017 02:00
|
|
|
precision posted:I just rewatched the beginning again and the first lines of Borden's journal are "We were two young men at the start of a career, two young men who never intended to hurt anyone". metallicaeg posted:This thread is making myself enjoy The Prestige more. This is the best CineD thread I've seen in years, minus the idiots who thought Borden used the machine.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2017 04:03
|
|
|
Hollismason posted:The nice Borden twin shares Angiers view of magic where he enjoys the look of people face when he shows them something wonderful. It's why the rear end in a top hat twin was crushed by what Angier says to him about that because he realizes Angier is saying probably something what his brother told him. Just through out the film you see the one brother really really that part of magic, but the other one loves magic because it's a great feat of concentration or ability / skill. It's why he raves about how how boring the magic their doing is at the beginning. He's driven to push the envelope on what he can do, the other loves it because of what it does to people. Angier internalizes this duality of magic, the twins are a external view of it. I agree with this line of reasoning, although I think you've got it backwards somewhat. Gallant Borden (no eyebrow scar, loves Sarah, not in jail) is the one dedicated to the concentration and sacrifice that goes into the magic act, to challenging what's possible. Even if it's fake, even if the audience is asking to be fooled, you still have to summon an immeasurable amount of focus & skill to pull it off. And if you can do that, you earn the good, bountiful life that would otherwise be denied to you. Goofus Borden (eyebrow scar, loves Olivia, goes to jail) is the arrogant one who loves the adulation just as much as Angier, who gets off on feeling smarter than the audience. Goofus Borden, had he lived to hear Angier's soliloquy, would've agreed that the measure of the trick, the real value, was in seeing something on the audience's face that couldn't be found anywhere else, that belonged only to true magicians. For Goofus and Angier, magic is the end all, be all. For Gallant, the sacrifice means nothing if it's not being put to good use for those you care about. The women in the film reflect this; Julia is interested in pushing the envelope of the drowning act, and so is Angier (up to a point), who agrees that the magician they're working for has gotten stale and boring. After she dies, Angier only cares about proving who is best, partly prompted by his obsessive revenge. Olivia is attracted to this zealous aspect of Angier's personality, and later Goofus Borden's as well, at least up until both men demonstrate their willingness to discard their connections to other people in service of their quest. Sarah ends up with Gallant Borden, who uses his skill and ability to defy the predetermined path set out for him (one of squalid poverty by all accounts, since he was an orphan who grew up in workhouses), both of them rising above their station. Gallant Borden is dedicated to magic in service of his life with Sarah, which is disrupted by the necessities of the very sacrifice which brings about his success and stability. Worse, Sarah calls his bluff and challenges him to discard the secrets that he relies on. He can't (or is prevented by Goofus), and loses her. Nobody wins. Everybody drowns under the weight of their obligations, obsessions, and sacrifices.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2017 04:25
|
|
|
precision posted:I just rewatched the beginning again and the first lines of Borden's journal are "We were two young men at the start of a career, two young men who never intended to hurt anyone". Welp, that's a new one for me that I never picked up on. 
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2017 15:25
|
|
|
The only thing that ever really bothered me about The Prestige is the very end, where we have that pan to the tank with Angiers in it with Caine's closing speech about how you want to be... fooled. I feel like it's set up as though we're supposed to be shocked by what we see, or that there's something missing in what we've seen that we didn't realize until now? I mean, they've just explained what's going on, and it's been obvious for a reasonably perceptive viewer ever since the new trick started.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2017 16:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 7, 2024 20:21 |
|
|
GoldStandardConure posted:The big part of the trick with the fish bowl is that the performer is able to keep up the old man act even when not on stage, etc. I think Borden follows him and sees him at home and realizes his dedication to the trick extends beyond the stage to his whole life. I think the thing that isn't very believable is that it takes a while for Borden to even start doing the trick. He would have had to spend years faking his identity just to eventually get to doing the trick.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2017 17:22
|
|