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I don't think Nick Spencer is literally a secret Nazi or even a secret fascist, but I do think he's pretty dumb both as a storyteller and a political thinker, all Cap: Sam Wilson things aside, he seems to have some major blindspots in terms of: 1) "They're Hydra, not Nazis!" while writing Hydra to be explicitly allied with Nazis but continually hammering this weird "yes, but you see we keep on having Steve and Helmut and Madame Hydra say they disagree with Nazis" as if that's a magic talisman to differentiate them. It's not even a "strange bedfellows" thing, the Hydra credo of total state control and glorious millenia-spanning empires that the Ultimate Humans are destined to reign, with massive propaganda and recruiting in the style of the Nazis, concentration camps, secret police, media control, there has been literally nothing in the comics to separate "this is what Hydra believes in and desires" from "this is what Nazi Germany believed in and desired" aside from a couple 'sympathetic' characters wrinkling their nose and going "OH ME OH MY, I CAN'T ABIDE BY THOSE TERRIBLE NAZIS" It's like getting real mad when someone accuses you of serving them a dogshit sandwich and then you go "I would never do something so terrible, it was actually coyote poo poo, completely different species of canid. And it's technically a panini, we don't serve poo poo sandwiches here thank you very much. WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP SAYING WE SERVE poo poo SANDWICHES? It's sad really." 2) Honestly the most uncomfortable thing about the entire Hydra Steve thing is that he really does seem to be writing Steve as like "the One Good Fascist, his inherent nobility shining through". If you read the entire run, every other issue has [evil deep cover Hydra Steve Rogers] give some sort of internal monologue about how he's doing this to help everyone, and maybe he has to work with some distasteful fellows, the ends will totally justify the means, believe me. There's also a series of "OH NO STEVE'S GOING TO MURDER SOMEONE" scenes that always resolve into "nah, he didn't really murder them, it's okay!" or weird bullshit "he didn't murder them, he just tipped off murderers to the location of the murdered person" or "he was going to kill someone in a coma but they'd already been taken off of life support" or "I had your assistant poison you an hour ago, it will look like a heart attack" and all of these super weird half-measures until he finally murders Red Skull in the last issue before Secret Empire. If you're writing him as a corrupted dark mirror of himself, why do it so half-assed? Like literal genocidal would-be dictator Steve Rogers is still so good deep down that he can't bring himself to kill a senator? Why? This seems to be carrying on through Secret Empire #1, where Steve just sort of mopes around going "golly I mean, we're going to execute all those dissidents, but are you SURE we have to? Seems unkind. Oh well, I don't approve but I guess we need to murder everyone and put them in camps, but shucks it just doesn't seem RIGHT. Oh well  "
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May 12, 2017 17:57
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:that's a weird conclusion to draw from that, particularly since the comic you cited also features multiple instances of men raping women, as does The Invisibles. it seems the actual most direct conclusion is that he was wrong/bullshitting. I haven't pulled my copy but I could swear the deliveryboy rape was the only clearly shown rape. One agent gets raped via pheromone suggestion but it's less explicit and honestly I just didn't remember that last night. I don't recall anything else, and I could swear that Invisibles isn't really upfront on that (but my memory is really shaky... I thought it was more threats of sexual violence). Regardless, the point is he has not AFAIK retracted that statement and a twitteresque facile reading of the statement would lead to the worse conclusion; there's no reason to know that he misstated without a retraction.
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May 12, 2017 18:03
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"Hydra aren't Nazis, even though (like just so much nazi stuff)" isn't a Spencer thing, it's the company line.
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May 12, 2017 18:04
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Zachack posted:I haven't pulled my copy but I could swear the deliveryboy rape was the only clearly shown rape. One agent gets raped via pheromone suggestion but it's less explicit and honestly I just didn't remember that last night. I don't recall anything else, and I could swear that Invisibles isn't really upfront on that (but my memory is really shaky... I thought it was more threats of sexual violence). Regardless, the point is he has not AFAIK retracted that statement and a twitteresque facile reading of the statement would lead to the worse conclusion; there's no reason to know that he misstated without a retraction. Even so, "I don't write rape-- I only write the explicit threat of rape" is a pretty lackluster defense.
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May 12, 2017 18:05
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For clarity, I think Spencer is a poor writer and I've held that position since I read Forgetless (still among the worst books I've read). I don't think he's a Nazi lover and when people spit that kind of facile line out, they usually follow it up with some willful misinterpretation of whatever he says. I'm not sure what folks think that kind of approach is going to get them.
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May 12, 2017 18:07
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Zachack posted:I haven't pulled my copy but I could swear the deliveryboy rape was the only clearly shown rape. One agent gets raped via pheromone suggestion but it's less explicit and honestly I just didn't remember that last night. I don't recall anything else, and I could swear that Invisibles isn't really upfront on that (but my memory is really shaky... I thought it was more threats of sexual violence). Regardless, the point is he has not AFAIK retracted that statement and a twitteresque facile reading of the statement would lead to the worse conclusion; there's no reason to know that he misstated without a retraction. There's that one character that's a brainwashed remote controlled sex slave who got kidnapped on her way to work. Also Lord Fanny gets gang-raped in the invisibles, plus there's that whole arc that's a retelling of The 120 Days of Sodom. Was Taters posted:For clarity, I think Spencer is a poor writer and I've held that position since I read Forgetless (still among the worst books I've read). I don't think he's a Nazi lover and when people spit that kind of facile line out, they usually follow it up with some willful misinterpretation of whatever he says. I'm not sure what folks think that kind of approach is going to get them. I think it's just a timing thing. I mean, this isn't even the first arc where Steve's been brainwashed into a nazi, is it? Wasn't he under The Red Skull's control for a while?
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May 12, 2017 18:08
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Nick Spencer isn't a nazi lover, he just doesn't want anyone to punch them and thinks they're really cool and he'd like to hug and maybe kiss them a little or a lot.
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May 12, 2017 18:11
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I think it's just a timing thing. I mean, this isn't even the first arc where Steve's been brainwashed into a nazi, is it? Wasn't he under The Red Skull's control for a while? Yeah, in a Lee/Kirby issue, but in their defense it was a very brief thing. A parallel that I think is more off-putting is the weird Gruenwald issue where the Red Skull is dying, so Crossbones brings Captain America over to rouse him back to life, and then Cap just wanders off. Strangely, this was right after the very effective issue where Magneto tosses RS in a pit for being a nazi. Gruenwald also wrote "The Superia Stragemen," which I think has aged very, very poorly in its "feminism, am I right?" tone. But I mean, that was then and this is now, so I don't want to make it sound like I'm arguing that Spencer should be let off the hook because of whatever Gruenwald did.
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May 12, 2017 18:15
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'Lee/Kirby/Gruenwald/Whoever did it first' is a really meaningless response to criticism of Spencer and his like because it doesn't actually address any of the actual problems people have with Spencer and his ilk. It's a very superficial argument that doesn't hold up to much scrutiny.
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May 12, 2017 18:27
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Archyduke posted:Yeah, in a Lee/Kirby issue, but in their defense it was a very brief thing. A parallel that I think is more off-putting is the weird Gruenwald issue where the Red Skull is dying, so Crossbones brings Captain America over to rouse him back to life, and then Cap just wanders off. Strangely, this was right after the very effective issue where Magneto tosses RS in a pit for being a nazi. Gruenwald also wrote "The Superia Stragemen," which I think has aged very, very poorly in its "feminism, am I right?" tone. But I mean, that was then and this is now, so I don't want to make it sound like I'm arguing that Spencer should be let off the hook because of whatever Gruenwald did. Didn't it happen in Waid's run too?
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May 12, 2017 18:27
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Dan Didio posted:'Lee/Kirby/Gruenwald/Whoever did it first' is a really meaningless response to criticism of Spencer and his like because it doesn't actually address any of the actual problems people have with Spencer and his ilk. It's a very superficial argument that doesn't hold up to much scrutiny.
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May 12, 2017 18:34
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Dan Didio posted:'Lee/Kirby/Gruenwald/Whoever did it first' is a really meaningless response to criticism of Spencer and his like because it doesn't actually address any of the actual problems people have with Spencer and his ilk. It's a very superficial argument that doesn't hold up to much scrutiny. Archyduke posted:But I mean, that was then and this is now, so I don't want to make it sound like I'm arguing that Spencer should be let off the hook because of whatever Gruenwald did.
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May 12, 2017 18:36
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Edge & Christian posted:Kind of like your "Nick Spencer sure does love Nazis and wants to hug Nazis and wants to kiss Nazis and cuddle in Swastika flannels with his beloved Nazis" response? I mean, I'm a lot more accepting of Nazi-punching than Nick Spencer, but I don't want (for instance) Geoff Johns to get punched in the face or otherwise brutalized despite writing a lot of lovely comics. What base do I dream of getting to with Geoff Johns? Just hands stuff? Heavy sexting.
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May 12, 2017 18:40
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Edge & Christian posted:Kind of like your "Nick Spencer sure does love Nazis and wants to hug Nazis and wants to kiss Nazis and cuddle in Swastika flannels with his beloved Nazis" response? I mean, I'm a lot more accepting of Nazi-punching than Nick Spencer, but I don't want (for instance) Geoff Johns to get punched in the face or otherwise brutalized despite writing a lot of lovely comics. What base do I dream of getting to with Geoff Johns? Just hands stuff? Geoff Johns writing is bad, but I'm going to have to disagree with you here that it's comparable to Neo-Nazism. That wasn't in response to you, just a thought about that sentiment that I've seen around a lot lately.
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May 12, 2017 18:45
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Dan Didio posted:Geoff Johns writing is bad, but I'm going to have to disagree with you here that it's comparable to Neo-Nazism. I think Nick Spencer is a really dumb neoliberal dummy who is trying to be smart and looking even dumber while doing it, but because [SCENE MISSING] this means he's secretly in love with Neo-Nazism because [SCENE MISSING] so lol he's some sort of closet homo Nazi lover lol lol lol lol lol lol lol
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May 12, 2017 18:50
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There are women Nazis.
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May 12, 2017 18:51
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I don't really read Marvel and I am admittedly pretty ignorant about Secret Empire and this whole situation but as a matter of principle, if the guy writing Captain America doesn't think people should punch Nazis in the face there's a huge problem somewhere in the process.
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May 12, 2017 19:03
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purple death ray posted:I don't really read Marvel and I am admittedly pretty ignorant about Secret Empire and this whole situation but as a matter of principle, if the guy writing Captain America doesn't think people should punch Nazis in the face there's a huge problem somewhere in the process. Hm, I agree. Glad we've all reached this mutual understanding and can now move on with our lives.
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May 12, 2017 19:04
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You guys seen the trailer for that Death Note movie? It's not looking good
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May 12, 2017 19:23
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Willem Dafoe is very good looking thank you very much
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May 12, 2017 19:26
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Guy Goodbody posted:You guys seen the trailer for that Death Note movie? I saw the trailer and have never seen anything Death Note before and thought it looked incredibly wack.
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May 12, 2017 19:27
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Hi friends, it got lost a couple days back, but I'm headed to Portland on Monday for a few days. What comic shops should I hit up?
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May 12, 2017 19:27
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Dan Didio posted:There are women Nazis. I think Nick Spencer is a really dumb neoliberal dummy who is trying to be smart and looking even dumber while doing it, but because [SCENE MISSING] this means he's secretly in love with Neo-Nazism because [SCENE MISSING] so lol he's some sort of closet Nazi lover lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol
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May 12, 2017 19:58
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The main character is still named Light. But he's not Japanese, so they had to change his last name because it would be weird to have a white guy named Light Yagami. So he has the totally normal American teen name of Light Turner
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May 12, 2017 20:08
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Soonmot posted:Hi friends, it got lost a couple days back, but I'm headed to Portland on Monday for a few days. What comic shops should I hit up? TFAW and Excalibur according to my Portland pals.
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May 12, 2017 20:22
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Guy Goodbody posted:The main character is still named Light. But he's not Japanese, so they had to change his last name because it would be weird to have a white guy named Light Yagami. Is Light any more normal in Japan?
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May 12, 2017 20:31
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Aphrodite posted:Is Light any more normal in Japan? Yeah. I don't think it's common, but it is a name in Japan. It's spelled with some combination of kanji that can be pronounced together as "Raito" or Light
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May 12, 2017 20:38
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Dan Didio posted:There are women Nazis. They prefer to be called Nazettes.
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May 12, 2017 21:09
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Nick Spencer isn't a Nazi but he is the type of liberal that when given a choice would go all in on Nazism to protect the country.
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May 12, 2017 21:18
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Also lol at the idea people change their political opinions for no reason. For some vague growing up. Just say you want to like his stories, don't give a half assed excuse.
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May 12, 2017 21:19
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CharlestheHammer posted:Also lol at the idea people change their political opinions for no reason. For some vague growing up. But I said I don't like his stories. I do like Nazis, though, and his inability to fully realize the hottest blond men into ubermensch is just so, so frustrating. GIVE ME HOTLERDONG, I NEED THE ROGERING OF THE SS. Good to see you haven't changed while I was out.
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May 12, 2017 21:30
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Was Taters posted:TFAW and Excalibur according to my Portland pals. Thanks, I keep posting during post storms!
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May 12, 2017 22:03
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Guy Goodbody posted:You guys seen the trailer for that Death Note movie? Is it looking better than Blair Witch '16? Maybe my boy Wingard can build himself back up to good movies again. edit: Can't find a new trailer. Just the Netflix teaser from a month ago.
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May 12, 2017 23:57
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CharlestheHammer posted:Also lol at the idea people change their political opinions for no reason. For some vague growing up. No-one said that. In fact, she literally said the OPPOSITE of that. That because things (or 'reasons') occur during their lifetime that cause them to change. For instance, I think many of us probably didn't think twice about using the word 'retarded' a few years ago as a general pejorative term, but most of us probably don't do that anymore. Gosh, that must be for no reason, and not because we learned and heard things that made us go "hmm, maybe we should not do that anymore". Now, is there every likelihood Spencer hasn't changed THAT much from his political position of a decade ago? Sure, but acting like no human being has ever changed their opinion after the age of 16 is breathtakingly stupid.
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May 13, 2017 01:26
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Acting like people change for no reason is dumb. Assuming sonething that soured a change happened randomly is just as dumb.Could he have changed? Probably not, he'll it's more likely he is worst.
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May 13, 2017 01:47
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CharlestheHammer posted:Acting like people change for no reason is dumb. Assuming sonething that soured a change happened randomly is just as dumb.Could he have changed? Probably not, he'll it's more likely he is worst. Oh, so you're exactly the same person you were a decade ago in all ways? I mean, it's dumb to assume anything major could've happened to you in that time, right? So you must think exactly the same about literally everything as you did then, because you took in no new information or experiences since then? Because, as we all know, once you hit adulthood your long term memory stops working like that guy from Memento. You see how absurd that argument is? Please tell me you're not so obtuse as to literally be arguing that human beings do not grow or learn after adulthood because, like... I actually don't know how to debate that level of ignorance. Gaz-L fucked around with this message at 01:52 on May 13, 2017 |
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May 13, 2017 01:50
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No like I said they get more angry and bitter. People generally don't have a Saul of Damascus moment. But if you insist no people in general don't magically improve as they age.
CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 02:00 on May 13, 2017 |
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May 13, 2017 01:57
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loving hell, this is the worst derail, my podcast just did an episode on favorite costumes and character designs, what are some people's favorites, I like Namor, please just can we move on
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May 13, 2017 02:04
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RandallODim posted:loving hell, this is the worst derail, my podcast just did an episode on favorite costumes and character designs, what are some people's favorites, I like Namor, please just can we move on I like Captain America's fish-scaled look, the Future Foundation iteration of the Fantastic Four and the current Thor.
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May 13, 2017 02:06
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Dan Didio posted:I like Captain America's fish-scaled look, the Future Foundation iteration of the Fantastic Four and the current Thor. Future Foundation F4 is actually a really great one I didn't think of, and both Odinson and Thor's outfits were high contenders for my faves. What about the fishscale Cap in particular do you like?
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May 13, 2017 02:14
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