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whomupclicklike posted:gently caress this "Protestant work ethic" horseshit I am Catholic and I am going to spend my day lighting really tall candles and eating wafers and I WILL be compensated
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May 6, 2017 02:24
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akadajet posted:Why do you have the lowtax avatar when you aren't lowtax? 
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May 6, 2017 02:33
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:i don't think you really get automation there is no field of human labor that is safe from being automated whatever the hell you do for a living, there's someone trying to figure out how to either get a machine to do it, or make a tool or program that makes labor more efficient so there's fewer people who need to do it figuring out how to make labor more efficient has been the story of human history since it began
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May 6, 2017 02:33
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SpaceGoku posted:there is no field of human labor that is safe from being automated yeah great but just because a field of work is oversubscribed doesn't mean it's automated hope this helps
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May 6, 2017 02:37
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SpaceGoku posted:there is no field of human labor that is safe from being automated I mean at work I spend some time writing software to optimize machinery. I also spend time writing software to optimize my own job. I mean this probably wont put me out of a job but I try to be more productive with less work that could theoretically make a new hire irrelevant.
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May 6, 2017 02:40
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:yeah great but just because a field of work is oversubscribed doesn't mean it's automated hope this helps I didn't say it was
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May 6, 2017 02:41
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SpaceGoku posted:also every field of art and entertainment is close to having an infinite amount of content from the viewpoint of the audience because so much of it is produced that one person can't realistically expect to experience all of it (or even most of it) SpaceGoku posted:I didn't say it was
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May 6, 2017 02:42
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you should uh you should read what I actually wrote dude
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May 6, 2017 02:43
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SpaceGoku posted:no, we'll just have computers and machines (and some robots) multiplying and optimizing human labor more and more efficiently and we'll need fewer and fewer people employed Apparently Rivers Cuomo made an excel document to write new weezer songs but they all suck so I'm nut sure what that means.
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May 6, 2017 02:44
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Bip Roberts posted:Apparently Rivers Cuomo made an excel document to write new weezer songs but they all suck so I'm nut sure what that means. I actually do think we're pretty close to getting automated music produced by neural networks for some genres like with how repetitive and structured EDM poo poo is, a clever person with a good understanding of machine learning could probably get a neural network to produce music that's close to indistinguishable from human-made but something like rap is, uh, obviously a lot further away
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May 6, 2017 02:47
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gonna drop my banging album made by a neural network i trained with a bunch of rihanna songs, right after i get beaten into a legal pulp by a bunch of copyright lawyers
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May 6, 2017 02:48
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anyway this is a dumbass derail the whole point of having UBI is that it protects citizens against poo poo like automation or even unpredictable crap like popularity or market trends if you work at the factory making skinny jeans and skinny jeans go out of style what's going to happen when you start selling 1/2 your previous volume of goods? you need to cut down production to avoid sitting on too much surplus, but what then? just have some of your workforce sitting around doing little-to-nothing while getting paid the same? at that point everyone would just be better off getting UBI and then the people who really want to make skinny jeans could start a coop venture to produce them at a worker-owned factory so they could all just agree that "yes, we will make fewer skinny jeans because there is less demand"
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May 6, 2017 02:51
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SpaceGoku posted:anyway this is a dumbass derail no, slave labor is the solution
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May 6, 2017 02:54
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i think massive inflation is a good idea too tbh
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May 6, 2017 02:55
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:i think massive inflation is a good idea too tbh that's the current argument against ubi that if you drop money out of the sky, prices increase due to increased consumption which then leads to massive inflation there is like a certain percent of employment that the government tries to avoid reaching, just to prevent inflation
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May 6, 2017 03:06
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:i think massive inflation is a good idea too tbh 5-10% per year would probably be a good rate. It would really help people with mortgages and student loans.
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May 6, 2017 03:05
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if the united states implemented UBI it would lead to a global economic crisis so massive that people would beg for a return to the good times of 2009 as the dollar, the worlds reserve currency, would inflate to poo poo and crash everybody's savings
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May 6, 2017 03:10
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:if the united states implemented UBI it would lead to a global economic crisis so massive that people would beg for a return to the good times of 2009 as the dollar, the worlds reserve currency, would inflate to poo poo and crash everybody's savings hmm not really probably
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May 6, 2017 03:13
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Bip Roberts posted:hmm not really probably you know what the united states could get away with printing money for without the dollar going to poo poo? universal healthcare lol
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May 6, 2017 03:15
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:you know what the united states could get away with printing money for without the dollar going to poo poo? universal healthcare lol who said printing money? UBI is just an extra negative tax bracket.
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May 6, 2017 03:16
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we wouldn't need to print money for uhc because uhc would be cheaper for the government than what we have now it would be cheaper for the government than what we had before the aca
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May 6, 2017 03:17
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actually i changed my mind UBI would give lots of people who are bad with money quite a lot of money and even if some massively bad inflation happens i could probably make a profit just on that
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May 6, 2017 03:22
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Fansy posted:We live in a society steeped in protestant work ethic. What's more likely to attract a majority of voters: there's a reason why everyone says underwood's plan is stupid
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May 6, 2017 05:07
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you can reasonably have a job guarantee but you'd have to lower the workweek to 30 hours. obviously this would rule but it's unlikely to happen under capitalism which is why it's time to jam on the big red REVOLUTION button
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May 6, 2017 05:19
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:i think massive inflation is a good idea too tbh Mild predictable inflation is good for everyone except people who keep all their money under a mattress or in a scrooge mcduck style money bin Bulgogi Hoagie posted:if the united states implemented UBI it would lead to a global economic crisis so massive that people would beg for a return to the good times of 2009 as the dollar, the worlds reserve currency, would inflate to poo poo and crash everybody's savings The poor don't have savings. Its why theyre poor! The middle class doesn't really have any notable savings either and usually a lot of debt. Crashing everybody's non existent savings while inflating away debt would be a massive boon for everyone except the ultra-rich, and frankly gently caress those guys (provided the inflation was reasonable, predictable, and wages inflated to keep track - super important caveats). R. Guyovich posted:you can reasonably have a job guarantee but you'd have to lower the workweek to 30 hours. obviously this would rule but it's unlikely to happen under capitalism which is why it's time to jam on the big red REVOLUTION button I mean yeah for something like factory work where the lines never stop and you just hire another shift's worth of workers, but for basically everything else declaring a 30 hour work week doesn't really *do* much. More time off is nice though, I guess.
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May 6, 2017 05:57
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:yeah great but just because a field of work is oversubscribed doesn't mean it's automated hope this helps The vast vast majority of work in the arts and entertainment fields has long since been automated and if you dont realize that I am not sure you have the slightest clue what automation is. But most of that has been in the parts of those industries that actually employed people, not the creative parts. But a lot of the creative parts are being automated as well, even though they are still heavily human guided. Not all automation is direct one for one replacement - in fact, much of it simlly lets one person do the work of ten in the same amount of time. GlyphGryph has issued a correction as of 06:01 on May 6, 2017 |
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May 6, 2017 05:57
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Art still isnt as automated as programming though which is like 99% automated now and thank god.
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May 6, 2017 06:03
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:actually i changed my mind UBI would give lots of people who are bad with money quite a lot of money and even if some massively bad inflation happens i could probably make a profit just on that Look at this classist dirt bag.
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May 6, 2017 07:16
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oliwan posted:Why are there still people who think that ubi = no one works anymore? If anything, research shows that people work more when they have ubi. who's done work on this/could you link them? i'm legit curious about this. i was thinking about it back in january and, as menial jobs become more automated, i think there is a real free market argument for ubi - markets only work if there is wide scale participation. a 'market' of only a couple people doesn't produce any good returns. it could be argued that an increasingly automated economy is only actually viable with ubi so there's enough participation in the economy for it to be self-perpetuating. wouldn't that be a shitter? a market-based, psuedo-libertarian argument for basic income?
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May 6, 2017 08:03
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R. Guyovich posted:you can reasonably have a job guarantee but you'd have to lower the workweek to 30 hours. obviously this would rule but it's unlikely to happen under capitalism which is why it's time to jam on the big red REVOLUTION button
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May 6, 2017 08:15
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Not a Step posted:Mild predictable inflation is good for everyone except people who keep all their money under a mattress or in a scrooge mcduck style money bin there is the issue, the caveats wages will not be inflated at rate due to sticky wages(employers failing to raise wages at pace), and while increased consumption will lead to increased employment, there is a trade off point where, employment will actually fall as well as consumption due to the readjusting of prices as employment falls people lose collective bargaining power as they attempt to reenter the workforce, leading to lower wages, while the market adjusts to the expectation that everyone has ubi put simply, if workers don't seize the means of production, nothing gets done be sure that the business classes will continue to screw people in every event, because the advantage is theirs to set the rules i.e. lowered wages, and higher prices, and lower employment to compensate
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May 6, 2017 09:11
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walgreenslatino posted:because work sucks
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May 6, 2017 09:19
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Not a Step posted:Mild predictable inflation is good for everyone except people who keep all their money under a mattress or in a scrooge mcduck style money bin everybody with half a brain in eurasia keeps their savings in dollars and erasing their money would definitely not be a massive boon to the developing world at all and would probably lead to a bunch of people dying but hey at least it would get rid of your student debt, america first!!!
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May 6, 2017 11:17
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:everybody with half a brain in eurasia keeps their savings in dollars and erasing their money would definitely not be a massive boon to the developing world at all and would probably lead to a bunch of people dying but hey at least it would get rid of your student debt, america first!!! this already happens every few years because of capitalism anyway it happened back in 2008 it's gonna happen again sometime soon
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May 6, 2017 12:03
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SpaceGoku posted:this already happens every few years because of capitalism anyway "capitalism is not a perfect economic system that can transcend physical reality and provide for everyone, so anything i propose has to be better by definition" is certainly not a take we have ever heard before lol
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May 6, 2017 13:19
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i really hate it when dumb poor people who aren't good with money (and we know they're not good with money, that's why they're still poor!) finally get some and then go spend it on dumb frivolous things not like rich people, who spend it on juiceros and fyrefestival tickets
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May 6, 2017 13:31
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Bulgogi Hoagie posted:"capitalism is not a perfect economic system that can transcend physical reality and provide for everyone, so anything i propose has to be better by definition" is certainly not a take we have ever heard before lol your argument against ubi is that "printing a bunch of money will destroy the global economy" we did that back in 2009 and it didn't
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May 6, 2017 13:38
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as someone who doesnt own any capital or investments i say bring on the massive inflation my dudes, help me pay off some of this debt
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May 6, 2017 13:42
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oh no, not inflation i wouldnt want that
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May 6, 2017 13:44
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SpaceGoku posted:your argument against ubi is that "printing a bunch of money will destroy the global economy" no my argument is that printing a bunch of the worlds reserve currency and introducing it into super high-velocity circulation is going to wreck the global economy for some time
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May 6, 2017 14:48
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