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tallkidwithglasses posted:Actually, GW is bad. Also true
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May 12, 2017 09:02
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Atlas Hugged posted:I touched on this in the OP, but if you would like a further explanation I can provide one. There are a lot of threads and a lot of games and some games don't have threads. I don't have any interest in Warmahordes and so I don't go into that thread at all. But that doesn't mean I don't want to hear about PP making terrible business decisions. Having a thread that focuses on the industry specifically over the minutia of the game, the hobby, or the competitive scene is the obvious solution. The different threads also have different cultures. Some threads really do just focus on list building and posting pictures of painted models and aren't interested in analyzing rules or being critical of the company as a whole, and that's fine if that's what the people posting that thread want. I'm sure people will go to a thread titled "Death Thread" for fair and objectified opinions on games without their own topics. If you really want it to be a general resource thread, why not name it the "General Resource Thread" instead of invoking the ghosts of deaththreads past? Remove the death thread, people are forced to address the negative aspects of their games in their own threads. Right now, in a bizarre way, you're being an enabler for poo poo games. As for contrasting opinions being allowed, that reminds me of something that has always stuck with me, posted without irony in the last thread. Leperflesh posted:Your dissenting opinions are bad, you willfully ignore every point anyone makes that doesn't jive with your bad opinions, and then you call it a hugbox when people don't just passively accept terrible opinions. What can be said against a stonewall that hard? You invite legitimate discussion, in this thread, but who else? I've not once seen you defend somebody with a positive opinion getting browbeaten by the regulars. It shows the fundamental problem you have, that only the regulars engage in meaningful discussion. Everyone else is shitposting and personal attacks, and that is the only category people who disagree with this thread will ever be in. But sure, there being room for something on the internet is enough reason for it to exist. Would you want to see how far that justification could go? Once again I will state this thread, like so many things on the internet, is a superiority wankfest where people be negative to sound intelligent.
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May 12, 2017 09:12
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Atlas Hugged posted:I'm hoping someone does a nice write-up of Mierce for instance and why you should stay the hell away or what the risks are of getting involved with the guys that do Dystopian Wars. I know it's distracting from the cool kids posting about hugboxes and safe spaces and poo poo but I'm interested in these. The last I remember of Mierce is that they were owned by the same dodgy cunts who ran Maelstrom and pulled a lot of shady stuff that more or less amounted to stealing customer money, not paying suppliers and then using some shell companies to hide from the repercussions. What's happened with them since? I'd also like to hear about Dystopian Wars since I remember that coming out but didn't hear much about it since.
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May 12, 2017 09:32
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Hamshot posted:What can be said against a stonewall that hard? You invite legitimate discussion, in this thread, but who else? I've not once seen you defend somebody with a positive opinion getting browbeaten by the regulars. It shows the fundamental problem you have, that only the regulars engage in meaningful discussion. Everyone else is shitposting and personal attacks, and that is the only category people who disagree with this thread will ever be in. I have actually defended games I don't like and people posting about them in the past, usually when people are factually incorrect with their criticisms or bringing up something that a company has changed or addressed. Just because you didn't notice me doing it doesn't mean I didn't. And for the record that's how I intend to run this thread. Being critical is good, but posting bullshit or things that are factually incorrect won't be tolerated. I even asked people to correct me in the OP if I had something wrong! As for why LeperFlesh posted that, in my opinion it's because you weren't actually engaging with the points he was making and he was frustrated. I don't know why you would do that other than to later be able to say, "See, he wouldn't actually listen to an opposing viewpoint," or maybe because you were intentionally baiting him, I don't know. That's just what I remember though and I could be wrong. But the point he was making wasn't that he wouldn't discuss things with a dissenting opinion. He just wasn't interested in having a one-sided discussion where the dissenting opinion ignored every valid thing he said and replied as if he hadn't said anything at all. If you would like to hash it out with him, feel free to take it to PMs since I don't really want to relive drama from a previous thread in this one. As I said, there are a lot of threads I'd have to be following if I wanted to know what every single company was doing. Having this thread is a convenience and let's people talk about the industry in depth when the thread about a specific game or company has moved on to something more relevant to them. I like the sound of Death Thread. It gets straight to the point. This is an industry where people constantly make terrible financial decisions and even when people are acting in good faith they're usually doing something questionable. Why deny what the roots are? I could call it anything at all and you guys would have the same reaction. And that to me is very odd. And I'm pretty sure the internet has already plumbed the depths of that last point you were making. The Death Thread existing hardly makes things worse for anyone. Edit: See my post below. Sometimes poo poo goes on behind the scenes that potentially has repercussions across multiple companies. This thread clearly has the scope to talk about stuff like that in general. Atlas Hugged fucked around with this message at 09:42 on May 12, 2017 |
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May 12, 2017 09:33
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Corrode posted:I know it's distracting from the cool kids posting about hugboxes and safe spaces and poo poo but I'm interested in these. The last I remember of Mierce is that they were owned by the same dodgy cunts who ran Maelstrom and pulled a lot of shady stuff that more or less amounted to stealing customer money, not paying suppliers and then using some shell companies to hide from the repercussions. What's happened with them since? I'd also like to hear about Dystopian Wars since I remember that coming out but didn't hear much about it since. My understanding is that they were Maelstrom but when they ran out of funds they declared bankruptcy and founded Mierce and never fulfilled any of the outstanding orders they still had. They've since gone on to run a series of Kickstarters, but they somehow never have enough funds to pay for fulfillment, so the next Kickstarter they do actually goes to pay for the previous one. I'm shaky on the specifics and haven't dealt with them personally, which is why I wanted to leave it to someone else. But I think that's the gist. More recently they've put out some very pricey starter kits and actually have rules for a game, but that's not particularly egregious given the hobby we're in. As far as I know Dystopian Wars and Spartan Games are mostly fine, but I remember reading that they're really bad at long term support for their games and that you can never be sure if the game you are buying into is going to suddenly stop getting new releases, but again I lack personal experience with it. Someone should also talk about how the Dropfleet Kickstarter got hosed up. Which reminds me, I've heard rumors that something went wrong with the production side of things in China and it had a trickle down effect across multiple companies, potentially affecting Hawk, Mantic, Reaper, and Warlord to name a few but I don't know any more about it.
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May 12, 2017 09:40
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Atlas Hugged posted:And for the record that's how I intend to run this thread. Being critical is good, but posting bullshit or things that are factually incorrect won't be tolerated. Once again, it'll be quickly established that only the regulars are being critical, because critical = negative. The non-regulars to a thread that might as well be titled "Be Negative about Games Here" will be the ones "Posting bullshit or things that are factually incorrect." "I like the sound of Death Thread. It gets straight to the point." Your point. That poo poo should be negative. With a thread with this premise, I once again ask, how can you say it will be there will be fair and unbiased discussion when there is bias in the title of the thread and the op? How can you say this with a straight face?
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May 12, 2017 09:41
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Just rename the thread to Games Industry Critique or something and let this dumb argument die. Someone post stuff about Corvus Belli or Hawk or Perry.
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May 12, 2017 09:46
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Atlas Hugged posted:And I'm pretty sure the internet has already plumbed the depths of that last point you were making. The Death Thread existing hardly makes things worse for anyone. Nono, please don't get your wires crossed here, the internet has plumbed the depths of your point. A point that because there's room for something, it should exist. It was your responsibility to counter what I said by saying the internet wasn't filled with horrible poo poo just because there's an audience and good loving luck with that.
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May 12, 2017 09:46
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Hamshot posted:Once again, it'll be quickly established that only the regulars are being critical, because critical = negative. The non-regulars to a thread that might as well be titled "Be Negative about Games Here" will be the ones "Posting bullshit or things that are factually incorrect." Who said there wasn't going to be bias? I said it wasn't an echo chamber or fluffy hugbox or whatever. I, as the OP, am happy to call people out when they're not being fair, but I can hardly control what everyone posts. And critical isn't always going to be negative. We've had lots of great discussion about game mechanics in previous Death Threads where people are critical in the sense that they analyze rules and propose solutions to problems. My challenge to you though is to just try participating in the thread for the stated purpose rather than going on and on about how you feel like CGL's honor is going to be poo poo on or whatever. I mean Christ, for example I even said positive things about them in my response to the people who brought up how terrible they are. I simply do not understand why this upsets you so much.
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May 12, 2017 09:47
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Atlas Hugged posted:Who said there wasn't going to be bias? I said it wasn't an echo chamber or fluffy hugbox or whatever. I, as the OP, am happy to call people out when they're not being fair, but I can hardly control what everyone posts. I'm not sure you know what a hugbox or an echochamber is if you say bias has nothing to do with them. As for controlling what people post... Atlas Hugged posted:And for the record that's how I intend to run this thread. ...could've fooled me. And what the gently caress is a CGL?
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May 12, 2017 09:52
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Hamshot posted:I'm not sure you know what a hugbox or an echochamber is if you say bias has nothing to do with them. As for controlling what people post... A hugbox or echo chamber means everyone says the same thing and anyone who disagrees gets shouted out. Bias means people have opinions that inform what they say. I suspect people have different biases that result in differing viewpoints. My biases and your biases are clearly not the same. I cannot eliminate bias because I am not a robot. But we're getting pedantic. Please stay on topic from now on. quote:...could've fooled me. And what the gently caress is a CGL? Catalyst Game Labs, see the OP for a quick rundown on who they are. But basically they were a company created around the time WizKids started doing Mechwarrior Dark Age to handle the Classic Battletech License and once MWDA died they became the sole company in charge of Battletech and a few other old FASA licenses, such as Shadowrun. They were starting to branch out with original properties and games, but embezzlement drained their funds and they haven't been able to release anything in awhile. They're about to put out a LCG with Wizards, though. I can't wait to see how that unfolds. And speaking of Wizkids, I would love an effortpost on their history and the dozen different games they were trying to juggle before collapsing in on themselves. Drone posted:Someone post stuff about Corvus Belli or Hawk or Perry. Yes do this.
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May 12, 2017 09:59
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Hello Death Thread my old friend. Learning and discussing constructive things in the context of stupid mistakes can be fun and educational Schadenfreude. See also the OSHA and/or Bitcoin threads (though i haven't kept up on the latter for a while) I'm not up to date on Fatal & Friends but is that full of Fatal fans whining about the thread existing as well?
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May 12, 2017 10:03
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I for one enjoy hearing about hilarious industry gently caress-ups without constantly checking every individual miniatures game thread.
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May 12, 2017 10:08
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Blisster posted:I for one enjoy hearing about hilarious industry gently caress-ups without constantly checking every individual miniatures game thread.  Atlas Hugged posted:Catalyst Game Labs  Drone posted:Someone post stuff about Corvus Belli or Hawk or Perry. I can try to write a bit about Hawk but no promise if i can find the time at the moment. Full disclosure: I'm a Talon, a volunteer promoter in the same vein as the Pressgangers, so don't expect anything unbiased if it happens.
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May 12, 2017 10:10
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Atlas Hugged posted:A hugbox or echo chamber means everyone says the same thing and anyone who disagrees gets shouted out. Bias means people have opinions that inform what they say. I suspect people have different biases that result in differing viewpoints. My biases and your biases are clearly not the same. I cannot eliminate bias because I am not a robot. But we're getting pedantic. Please stay on topic from now on. And what happens when everyone in a thread has the same bias? Why you get a hugbox or an echo chamber! Oh sorry, I guess I should've stopped discussing this particular topic with you since that makes me pedantic and off-topic. And if that's what CGL is, why did you say I was going on and on about defending their honor? What happened to only the outsiders doing personal attacks, might've you stooped down to our slovenly level? Here are the immutable facts. Threads started with a pretense of criticizing above all else are, and always will be, biased. Biased threads will never encourage discussion or differing opinion. A thread started with a pretense of being critical and at the same time not an echo chamber for a single opinion is an oxymoron.
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May 12, 2017 10:12
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Bistromatic posted:
They still have a link to it on their main page, so maybe someday.... quote:My main issue with Corvus Belli is how they depict women. Their excuse for that is apparently that they have no control over what their skeevy sculptors do. This has been a contentious topic in and of itself. quote:I can try to write a bit about Hawk but no promise if i can find the time at the moment. Full disclosure: I'm a Talon, a volunteer promoter in the same vein as the Pressgangers, so don't expect anything unbiased if it happens. It would be great to hear things from that perspective. No rush. Get to it when and if you can. Hamshot posted:And if that's what CGL is, why did you say I was going on and on about defending their honor? What happened to only the outsiders doing personal attacks, might've you stooped down to our slovenly level? It was a hypothetical example and very clearly not a personal attack. I'm sure you're capable of understanding that. As we've seen from the above post, there is bias from different directions already. The thread is saved. So now let's please stay on topic and talk about the miniature game industry at large. Atlas Hugged fucked around with this message at 10:16 on May 12, 2017 |
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May 12, 2017 10:13
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Bistromatic posted:Hello Death Thread my old friend. Learning and discussing constructive things in the context of stupid mistakes can be fun and educational Schadenfreude. See also the OSHA and/or Bitcoin threads (though i haven't kept up on the latter for a while)
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May 12, 2017 10:15
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Hawk Wargames Niche within a niche wargaming company (10mm sci fi!) who love their vehicles and had to employ someone who didn't hate infantry to sculpt their infantry because the first run was so drat bad. They have a reputation for having an enthusiastic convention presence, having no organisational skills of any kind and for their rules suffering from uneven playtesting. In short, they're a small wargames company Notable Games: Dropzone Commander, Dropfleet Commander Boneheaded Moves: The aforementioned infantry. The fact that their kickstarter delivery for Dropfleet was late, and then inconsistent and their communication was poor verging on nonexistent. The biggest screw up with it though was that most people didn't get their stuff until it had already hit retail, and the people who backed for the most money got their stuff last. Which of course is exactly the way to treat people who invest a buttload of cash into your game. Also, Hawk Dave writes rules that can be charitably described as "wobbly", that leave major problems with balance. The traditional mechanism to fixing balance has been releasing randomised card draw mechanics, which are sort of compulsory but lots of people refuse to play with.
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May 12, 2017 10:17
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Terrible Opinions posted:No but threads that are supposed to make fun of gamergaters/alt-right people always have literal nazis come into the threads to complain about bias. Which given GW games all having heavily fascist themes makes sense. Please, Atlas Hugged, defend this opinion to me. Second page and Godwin's Law already in effect.
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May 12, 2017 10:17
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Hamshot, ijyt et al are the already the loudest voices in the death thread. Your dollies suck and GW is bad, get over it.
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May 12, 2017 10:19
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Hamshot you have never even once engaged with actual arguments against you only your perception of the tone of those arguments. Tone policing is itself a logical fallacy. You have never once contributed a single legitimate point as to why a given point is wrong, only that it hurts your feelings. All you have done is signaled to everyone that you want a safe space to love GW.
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May 12, 2017 10:19
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Nifara posted:Hawk Wargames Thanks. I'll add it to the OP. Bistromatic if you don't agree with that or have a different take, I can add that in later too. Hamshot posted:Please, Atlas Hugged, defend this opinion to me. Second page and Godwin's Law already in effect. Sometimes people write things for humorous effect.
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May 12, 2017 10:21
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Atlas Hugged posted:But how can you possibly call it a fluffy echo chamber? There is a monumental amount of shitposting and personal attacks that go on in the Death Thread and yet the regulars still try to engage in meaningful discussion. I invite contrasting viewpoints because I want legitimate discussion. Versus Southpaugh posted:Hamshot, ijyt et al are the already the loudest voices in the death thread. Your dollies suck and GW is bad, get over it. Terrible Opinions posted:Hamshot you have never even once engaged with actual arguments against you only your perception of the tone of those arguments. Tone policing is itself a logical fallacy. You have never once contributed a single legitimate point as to why a given point is wrong, only that it hurts your feelings. All you have done is signaled to everyone that you want a safe space to love GW. I'm glad that we're two pages in and already I don't need to source quotes from the last death thread as to why discussion gets killed and this thread is a bad idea.
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May 12, 2017 10:24
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Hamshot posted:I'm glad that we're two pages in and already I don't need to source quotes from the last death thread as to why discussion gets killed and this thread is a bad idea. If you feel like you are having difficulty discussing the miniature game industry because of attitudes in this thread, please send me a PM and we can discuss it there.
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May 12, 2017 10:27
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Atlas Hugged posted:If you feel like you are having difficulty discussing the miniature game industry because of attitudes in this thread, please send me a PM and we can discuss it there. Why not just admit you're wrong and close the thread instead? e: Besides, why would I suddenly want to move to PMs after an influx of posts proving my point? Hamshot fucked around with this message at 10:35 on May 12, 2017 |
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May 12, 2017 10:30
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Hamshot posted:Why not just admit you're wrong and close the thread instead? I'm not sure which company you're trying to discuss. Could you maybe rephrase it or take this to PMs?
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May 12, 2017 10:45
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Atlas Hugged posted:I'm not sure which company you're trying to discuss. Could you maybe rephrase it or take this to PMs? Ok, stonewall me. Own up to what you really are, and what this thread is for. You've stopped trying to relentlessly polish a turd and defend, the next step is dismounting your high horse and change the op to pictures of memes, then close the drat thread and reopen it in ycs.
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May 12, 2017 10:48
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Hamshot posted:Ok, stonewall me. Own up to what you really are, and what this thread is for. You've stopped trying to relentlessly polish a turd and defend, the next step is dismounting your high horse and change the op to pictures of memes, then close the drat thread and reopen it in ycs. We discussed it with you, allowed you to express your view, disagreed, and moved on. It doesn't seem you're interested in changing your opinion so I don't see why I should keep this going. I'm happy to chat in PMs and let this thread do what it will.
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May 12, 2017 10:52
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Atlas Hugged posted:We discussed it with you, allowed you to express your view, disagreed, and moved on. It doesn't seem you're interested in changing your opinion so I don't see why I should keep this going. I'm happy to chat in PMs and let this thread do what it will. It's funny you say this when every point you've brought up has been proven indefensible. My opinion was that it would be impossible to have a dissenting opinion in this thread. You have done nothing to change it, only reinforced it, especially with this backhanded remark. You know, I think this thread would really flourish and grow in a fyad-like subforum. Why not YCS? Seems a good fit.
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May 12, 2017 10:55
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Hamshot posted:trying to relentlessly polish a turd But enough about GW pricing and game balancing
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May 12, 2017 10:56
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Hamshot posted:My opinion was that it would be impossible to have a dissenting opinion in this thread. You've been stating your opinion and being engaged in a constructive manner about it -- I fail to see how this indicates that "dissenting opinions" are impossible? The shitposting, dear Brutus, is not in our stars but in ourselves.
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May 12, 2017 11:00
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Hamshot posted:It's funny you say this when every point you've brought up has been proven indefensible. My opinion was that it would be impossible to have a dissenting opinion in this thread. You have done nothing to change it, only reinforced it, especially with this backhanded remark. As with every other conversation we've had with you, you disagree, declare you're right, and then cite yourself as evidence of being proven correct. We literally have someone here who volunteers their time for Hawk who is going to have a different bias and opinion than the people posting about being burned by the Kickstarter. Female sculpts and Infinity butts have always had people in disagreement. Some things are objective fact. There's no room for disagreement on whether or not embezzlement took place. The scope of the thread is all games and companies in the miniature game company. Surely you don't believe that we all believe exactly the same things about every game and company. So I'm asking you to stop the derail.
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May 12, 2017 11:01
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Atlas Hugged posted:As with every other conversation we've had with you, you disagree, declare you're right, and then cite yourself as evidence of being proven correct.  Atlas Hugged posted:It doesn't seem you're interested in changing your opinion so I don't see why I should keep this going. And is it really a derail when it began as soon as the thread started? Drone posted:You've been stating your opinion and being engaged in a constructive manner about it -- I fail to see how this indicates that "dissenting opinions" are impossible? Yes, constructive manner... Southpaugh posted:Hamshot, ijyt et al are the already the loudest voices in the death thread. Your dollies suck and GW is bad, get over it. Terrible Opinions posted:Hamshot you have never even once engaged with actual arguments against you only your perception of the tone of those arguments. Tone policing is itself a logical fallacy. You have never once contributed a single legitimate point as to why a given point is wrong, only that it hurts your feelings. All you have done is signaled to everyone that you want a safe space to love GW.
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May 12, 2017 11:06
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It's a derail because you intended it to be one, simple as that. But you're doing exactly what we said. You're not addressing what I said and it's habitual so those posters are fed up. Simple as that. Take it to PMs please. I would like this thread to go back to its stated purpose and I will not be responding to this derail further.
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May 12, 2017 11:22
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Atlas Hugged posted:It's a derail because you intended it to be one, simple as that. But you're doing exactly what we said. You're not addressing what I said and it's habitual so those posters are fed up. Simple as that. Take it to PMs please. I addressed every single thing you said, but please, throw around "derail" more when the OP of the thread contributed half the posts. This is yet another rebuttal to blatantly wrong things as much as it is a challenge for you to not have the last word in a "derail" you single-handedly perpetuated. Please, prove me wrong and keep to what you just said and I'll have no further need. It's clear you want the poo poo these sets of threads to perpetuate while taking on an air of superiority, all while bleeting that it's me being the stubborn one.
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May 12, 2017 11:36
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Can't we all just get along and go back to making GBS threads on the things we love?
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May 12, 2017 11:45
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Hamshot posted:I addressed every single thing you said, but please, throw around "derail" more when the OP of the thread contributed half the posts. you don't actually have to try and argue the thread into being something else, you can just shitpost or have the conversations you actually want to have and ignore the rest man. OP is actually good as a quick, interesting rundown of companies being twatty anyway, that's new
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May 12, 2017 12:31
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I accidentally kill the last thread  Tell me more about Privateer Press' fall from grace
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May 12, 2017 12:37
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I know that Warmachine pretty much died off in a local store here when 3rd edition game out: I think people ended up waiting to see how stuff shook out then it never quite recovered: wouldn't be surprised if price hikes added to that. EDIT: IIRC, the local store also had a bunch of trouble getting the new boxes in as well.
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May 12, 2017 12:38
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Southpaugh posted:Hamshot, ijyt et al are the already the loudest voices in the death thread. Your dollies suck and GW is bad, get over it. 
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May 12, 2017 12:41
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