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Ashcans
Jan 2, 2006

Let's do the space-time warp again!

I had no idea there was actually any story or setting for magic at all before this past page. I just assumed that they had totally random bits of stuff put on the cards based on whatever art they were using/sounded neat/etc. at the time. Kind of like how GW used to have spatter books with more or less random quotes and snips and only later came back to cobble those things together into more of the story.

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tallkidwithglasses
Feb 7, 2006
99% of cards in the game are worth less than a buck. You might randomly have a few valuable cards in an old collection but it's overwhelmingly likely to be chaff, and if it's cards from like 1997-2003 the best you're likely to get is maybe a $40 card or two.

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007

tallkidwithglasses posted:

99% of cards in the game are worth less than a buck. You might randomly have a few valuable cards in an old collection but it's overwhelmingly likely to be chaff, and if it's cards from like 1997-2003 the best you're likely to get is maybe a $40 card or two.

Yup. Had my brother (who still plays, although only very casually) come over and we sifted through my collection, which due to a few purchases of large boxes of random cards, has like 4k or 5k cards in it.

We pulled maybe a dozen that had value worth paying attention to, and the only ones worth more than like $25 were the dual lands.

If you have an old collection and you know someone who is aware of the current state of what's worth money, going through the cards with them for an hour or two is worthwhile. But if you have no idea, cataloguing thousands of cards online just isn't worth it; sell the entire collection for a hundred bucks or so and be done with it.

tallkidwithglasses
Feb 7, 2006

lilljonas posted:

lol, I also saw someone mentioning Force of Will being removed for being too powerful. Gimped af.

It's not. It's a cornerstone of both Legacy and Vintage and they've been printing foil promo versions for the past couple years- it's actually technically available in the current set as one of those awful "Egyptian" style promo cards.

What the other guy was referring to was a design philosophy that's taken hold for the past few years, where answers to threats have gotten very expensive and clumsy and the threats themselves have gotten much more efficient. So counterspells are either very narrow or cost 3 or more, spells that kill a creature tend to cost 3-4 at uncommon and rare and 5-6 at common, and burn spells tend to be 3-5 mana at common and 3 damage for 2 mana at uncommon. Personally, I think it's ruined Limited since if your opponent rips their super efficient scary rare dragon or demon or whatever, you likely do not have a great way to deal with it before it kills you.

TheChirurgeon
Aug 7, 2002

Remember how good you are
Taco Defender

Chill la Chill posted:

"Having your creature be countered is worse than 2/3s smashing butts at each other all day long" -WOTC

I'm a fan of counters but there's definitely a nontrivial portion of the playerbase that gets irrationally angry when you counter their poo poo


Chill la Chill posted:

WOTC made up a bunch of alternate games that use various oversized cards. Who knows, but I can see them adopting them into the main game the same way GW did with apocalypse.

they aren't going to incorporate planechase cards into regular Magic

tallkidwithglasses
Feb 7, 2006

TheChirurgeon posted:

they aren't going to incorporate planechase cards into regular Magic

This is the death thread my friend, knowing about things is not required to have incisive opinions about them.

Chill la Chill
Jul 2, 2007

Don't lose your gay


TheChirurgeon posted:

I'm a fan of counters but there's definitely a nontrivial portion of the playerbase that gets irrationally angry when you counter their poo poo


they aren't going to incorporate planechase cards into regular Magic

They keep scrambling for answers with standard. I can see them trying out more gimmick formats. I mean did anyone ever see standard showdown being a thing? And then WOTC cutting back on what the attendance worthwhile and wondering why only 4 people show up now? 😂

TheChirurgeon
Aug 7, 2002

Remember how good you are
Taco Defender

Chill la Chill posted:

They keep scrambling for answers with standard. I can see them trying out more gimmick formats. I mean did anyone ever see standard showdown being a thing? And then WOTC cutting back on what the attendance worthwhile and wondering why only 4 people show up now? 😂

all their oversized cards are printed for multiplayer formats and they haven't printed new planechase cards since 2012. They do one multiplayer/gimmick release per year and sometimes those include oversized cards, though I suspect Commander decks are by far more lucrative as products.

I don't have strong feelings about standard. It seems like it's better post-bannings, but was really bad for about 6 months there. I don't think they're going to introduce oversized cards as a gimmick to improve it. Keep in mind that changes that affect Standard beyond bannings will almost certainly impact modern as well.

Chill la Chill
Jul 2, 2007

Don't lose your gay


The one thing I'm glad about is that WOTC made standard so bad that a lot of people switched to legacy/modern and are treating the game more or less like an LCG now. I don't follow it as much anymore but has standard being bad impacted the mtgfinance crowd? That was always the most fun part of the MTG thread.

Eggplant Squire
Aug 14, 2003


Leperflesh posted:

Same, basically. But if you still have your old cards, by all means sift through and find any dual lands you might have, because they're worth hundreds of dollars. Couple years ago my friend gave me his magic cards - like four or five packs of Revised - and I sold off the dual lands and gave him an envelope with four hundred bucks in it. He was completely flabbergasted.

I was at a store a few years ago and some dude just dropped off a box of old magic cards he found in his house (not sure if they were his or his kid's that had left the home) and I think bargained about $100 for them. The owner of the store came in a little later and started sorting through them and realized that it was stuff that was worth like a thousand dollars total. They were nice enough to call the dude since he left his number and tell him he needed to get back and negotiate a much fairer price on the cards.


I had no idea Magic was bad now. I hope that might have a GW effect where some people peel off and start trying other things since at least in my area if you aren't playing Magic you aren't playing card games.

Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Jun 28, 2017

TheChirurgeon
Aug 7, 2002

Remember how good you are
Taco Defender
I wouldn't say it's bad now, though if you weren't a fan before you aren't going to change your mind. It has it's ups and downs and the part that's "bad" now is specifically one tournament format (Standard).

Well and Magic Online, but that thing's always been garbage.

Eggplant Squire
Aug 14, 2003


I enjoyed playing it when I knew some people that were into it but one person quit and then it just snowballed until the people I enjoyed playing with were all gone. It was fun to draft when I was interested but quit about three years ago so I have no idea what's going on now. I'd just like there to be room for more than one game since a few stores tried pushing other systems but even on dedicated nights for other stuff the magic players still took over and nothing ever sticks. I saw a few Game of Thrones people trying to push that game before giving up when the new edition hit and Netrunner died almost immediately last summer. A store supposedly had a decent Netrunner community for a little while but then the local grognard kings decided the meta was no good and actively pushed people away from that game as hard as they could.

I'm really hoping I can get a few people I know to play the new Five Rings game when it hits because I know that it will never catch on in this area where you can find someone playing it in the wild.

Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Jun 28, 2017

TheChirurgeon
Aug 7, 2002

Remember how good you are
Taco Defender
There is room for more games. The problem is that Magic's biggest competitor is a PC game

goth smoking cloves
Feb 28, 2011

TheChirurgeon posted:

There is room for more games. The problem is that Magic's biggest competitor is a PC game

Can someone find that quote from someone from Hasbro/WOTC saying they don't view Hearthstone as a competitor?

TheChirurgeon
Aug 7, 2002

Remember how good you are
Taco Defender

goth smoking cloves posted:

Can someone find that quote from someone from Hasbro/WOTC saying they don't view Hearthstone as a competitor?

That would make sense if they don't consider MTGO to be a real product, I guess

Chill la Chill
Jul 2, 2007

Don't lose your gay


goth smoking cloves posted:

Can someone find that quote from someone from Hasbro/WOTC saying they don't view Hearthstone as a competitor?

That quote owns. I know I saved a pic of it somewhere...


Radish posted:

I'd just like there to be room for more than one game since a few stores tried pushing other systems but even on dedicated nights for other stuff the magic players still took over and nothing ever sticks.
So in one of the stores I regularly visit, the new manager is more of a boardgames and wargames person so she's allotted more time to those and less to magic (though the store always has open play barring space). It's funny to see a classic case of the privileged kicking and screaming as their once dominant position has been opened to a more balanced set of games.

The magic players still come for events of course, but the store now has more board game and wargame sales and community. Imagine that.

Eggplant Squire
Aug 14, 2003


Chill la Chill posted:

That quote owns. I know I saved a pic of it somewhere...

So in one of the stores I regularly visit, the new manager is more of a boardgames and wargames person so she's allotted more time to those and less to magic (though the store always has open play barring space). It's funny to see a classic case of the privileged kicking and screaming as their once dominant position has been opened to a more balanced set of games.

The magic players still come for events of course, but the store now has more board game and wargame sales and community. Imagine that.

That's really cool of her. The stores here really just cater to Magic but maybe that's just the market for our area and people are expected to play their board games and LCGs at home with established groups.

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all
My FLGS banned Magic. He knows that it's what most stores pay rent with, but he didn't want to deal with unsupervised teenagers or having to sort through singles to survive on secondary market sales. As a result, board games and miniature games do quite well and the LCGs thrive since those are the only card games you can play.

TheChirurgeon
Aug 7, 2002

Remember how good you are
Taco Defender
that's dumb as hell

w00tmonger
Mar 9, 2011

F-F-FRIDAY NIGHT MOTHERFUCKERS

RIP

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007

Yeah it's really not hard to get the community itself to help run events, police the crowd, etc. and you can schedule specific times for Magic play and reserve time for other games. You can foster an environment in your store that does not tolerate gross behavior and reserves space for non-Magic players.

Magic is still by far the world's most popular and lucrative trad game. Banning it entirely would be like a candy store refusing to carry chocolate because it's just too popular to deal with.

Atlas Hugged
Mar 12, 2007


Put your arms around me,
fiddly digits, itchy britches
I love you all
Well the store is super successful and has been for a decade without Magic, but the owner is a stick in the mud. So I guess the truth is somewhere in the middle.

tallkidwithglasses
Feb 7, 2006
Chris Paul is going to the Rockets, which is kind of mind blowing. That team will be reeaaallly interesting in the playoffs and if they can play reasonable D they might actually give the Warriors trouble. You could argue they have the two best guards in the league now.

TheChirurgeon
Aug 7, 2002

Remember how good you are
Taco Defender

tallkidwithglasses posted:

Chris Paul is going to the Rockets, which is kind of mind blowing. That team will be reeaaallly interesting in the playoffs and if they can play reasonable D they might actually give the Warriors trouble. You could argue they have the two best guards in the league now.

It still won't be enough

tallkidwithglasses
Feb 7, 2006

TheChirurgeon posted:

It still won't be enough

For sure, but I have hopes for a 7 game playoff series where the typical score is like 142-139

grassy gnoll
Aug 27, 2006

The pawsting business is tough work.
I didn't play Magic since I was in fifth grade, but I picked up the first Innistrad block and it was pretty cool, but then I stopped caring again. That's my Magic story, thanks for the indulgence.

tallkidwithglasses posted:

For sure, but I have hopes for a 7 game playoff series where the typical score is like 142-139

Here's a basketball question. Obviously a game where you have the possibility of scoring multiple points on a single play will have a higher score. But basketball has a lot more individual instances of scoring than hockey, (this is pretty much always going to be my referent, sorry) where you get one point per puck in the goal, and a 4-3 game is considered a pretty high-scoring game.

I really like a game where the defensemen get to show off. A good save is often more entertaining than a bullshit accidental goal. This is definitely not a universally-held opinion, though.

Do you feel basketball suffers or benefits from having so many chances to score? Is a points race better entertainment value in your book than a race to break a shutout?

evilmiera
Dec 14, 2009

Status: Ravenously Rambunctious

Leperflesh posted:

Yeah it's really not hard to get the community itself to help run events, police the crowd, etc. and you can schedule specific times for Magic play and reserve time for other games. You can foster an environment in your store that does not tolerate gross behavior and reserves space for non-Magic players.


I have so far not seen this. I mean I believe you in that doing those things may be possible but I don't think it is as easy as you make it out to be.

Iceclaw
Nov 4, 2009

Fa la lanky down dilly, motherfuckers.
The worst problem I think is that a fair chunk of the most likely to be willing to run an event are also the most likely to be those you don't want in your store, much less interacting with newbies.

Its Rinaldo
Aug 13, 2010

CODS BINCH
I played magic back right when Ice age was the new poo poo I think befor Alliances I don't remember the little flag icons. Got my Wing Commander handle Bad Moon and first SA name from that grumpy looking moon art. Andson Maddox Singer Vampire was my jam. A couple years ago my friends bacholar party was for a bunch of us to rent a cabin in the mountains and buy decks and smoke weed and play. A good weekend. That's my Magic story. Sad it is making GBS threads itself.

Its Rinaldo fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Jun 29, 2017

S.J.
May 19, 2008

Just who the hell do you think we are?

I work in a store that could dump all of their CCG product in the dumpster tomorrow and be completely fine. It'd suck not having magic around but we'd be fine. It's often times much more hassle than it feels like it's worth.

Also magic loving sucks and Netrunner owns.

tallkidwithglasses
Feb 7, 2006

grassy gnoll posted:

Here's a basketball question. Obviously a game where you have the possibility of scoring multiple points on a single play will have a higher score. But basketball has a lot more individual instances of scoring than hockey, (this is pretty much always going to be my referent, sorry) where you get one point per puck in the goal, and a 4-3 game is considered a pretty high-scoring game.

I really like a game where the defensemen get to show off. A good save is often more entertaining than a bullshit accidental goal. This is definitely not a universally-held opinion, though.

Do you feel basketball suffers or benefits from having so many chances to score? Is a points race better entertainment value in your book than a race to break a shutout?

I like high scoring games, and personally, one of the things I dislike about soccer particularly is the inherent variance of a goal- a team can absolutely be better than their opponent and lose or tie a critical game thanks to a freaky scoring event (or in the absolute worst case, a penalty kick for a questionable or nonexistent foul arbitrarily decided by the ref in a nonreviewable process). Bball having lots of scoring greatly mitigates that variance and by the end of the season it's hard to argue that the best teams aren't in the final stages of the playoffs- compare that to the MLS, where medium teams often sneak into the playoffs and then win the whole thing thanks to fluky games.

All that scoring doesn't really mitigate great defensive performances though. A lot of people would say that Lebron's block was the highlight of the 2016 finals, and the final moments of a tight game are often decided by strong defense as much as they are by brilliant offense. One tendency in basketball, though, is that offense can be very individualistic, but D is really a team effort, since one of the guiding principles of modern offense is moving the ball and exploiting lapses in coverage to generate space. There isn't as much of an opportunity for a singularly dominant defensive player to make a mark (outside of maybe blanking a star playmaker) compared to how much an individual contributor can shine on offense.

TheChirurgeon
Aug 7, 2002

Remember how good you are
Taco Defender
Yeah one of the more interesting things about basketball is that the best team usually wins and the regular season is very good at determining who the best teams are. The basketball season is actually too long by about 30 games.


e: Also Lebron's 2016 block was rad as hell

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007

Basketball scoring also is somewhat deceptive. If you think there's not much defense going on and that's why games involve 200 points (100+ per team), here is a very cool video about a game in which both teams decided to try and set a record by not worrying about defense (besides steals) and just playing offense as fast as possible:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4afzQyGo5Q

The annoying bit in the first two minutes can be skipped if you get too annoyed. Actual content starts at ~2:15.

Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Jun 29, 2017

NTRabbit
Aug 15, 2012

i wear this armour to protect myself from the histrionics of hysterical women

bitches




Leperflesh posted:

here is a very cool video about a game in which both teams decided to try and set a record by not worrying about defense (besides steals) and just playing offense as fast as possible:

So just like the annual All Star game? :v:

grassy gnoll
Aug 27, 2006

The pawsting business is tough work.

tallkidwithglasses posted:

I like high scoring games, and personally, one of the things I dislike about soccer particularly is the inherent variance of a goal- a team can absolutely be better than their opponent and lose or tie a critical game thanks to a freaky scoring event (or in the absolute worst case, a penalty kick for a questionable or nonexistent foul arbitrarily decided by the ref in a nonreviewable process). Bball having lots of scoring greatly mitigates that variance and by the end of the season it's hard to argue that the best teams aren't in the final stages of the playoffs- compare that to the MLS, where medium teams often sneak into the playoffs and then win the whole thing thanks to fluky games.

All that scoring doesn't really mitigate great defensive performances though. A lot of people would say that Lebron's block was the highlight of the 2016 finals, and the final moments of a tight game are often decided by strong defense as much as they are by brilliant offense. One tendency in basketball, though, is that offense can be very individualistic, but D is really a team effort, since one of the guiding principles of modern offense is moving the ball and exploiting lapses in coverage to generate space. There isn't as much of an opportunity for a singularly dominant defensive player to make a mark (outside of maybe blanking a star playmaker) compared to how much an individual contributor can shine on offense.

Now, speaking from an uninformed position, that block is completely loving rad.

I think that's definitely a point of contrast for me. Hockey defense is weird, in that D players are often pretty good scorers as well, but it's a team effort to defeat the broad momentum of plays and the occasional breakaway, but also there's literally one dude on each team who's the ultimate shot-stopper.

There are definitely standout D-men, though. One of my favorite players in the NHL is PK Subban, who has a hell of a story behind him that's a little to long to recount just for this post. Basically hockey is even better than the other American leagues about drumming any personality out of its players. Meanwhile, Subban is charismatic as hell, on top of the fact he's intensely talented, and actually manages to play with a flourish. You can tell which dude he is when he's out on the ice even from the nosebleed seats, just because of how he moves and reacts. Some miscellaneous highlights in no particular order.

Meanwhile, it's harder to find goalie highlights, just because it's not as glamorous as scoring. I love the hell out of it, though. Good goalkeeping might not win you a game, but bad goalkeeping will sure as hell lose it. Here's one of my other favorite players, Pekka Rinne and a bunch of other goalies. The guy incredibly exciting to watch because he's either on fire and one of the best in the league, or he's sucking out loud. You never know which it'll be. Thrills!

There's definitely a push from some fans for increased scoring, via rules changes or bigger goals and smaller pads or whatever else. The idea is that more points == better than, but I personally feel there are bigger and more urgent issues for the NHL to address, which is also one of those things that's way too huge to discuss in this, the thread about Games Workshop, And Sports.

NTRabbit posted:

So just like the annual All Star game? :v:

I take a great deal of solace that no matter what sport you follow, everyone thinks the all-star games are dumb as hell.

Runa
Feb 13, 2011

Leperflesh posted:

Basketball scoring also is somewhat deceptive. If you think there's not much defense going on and that's why games involve 200 points (100+ per team), here is a very cool video about a game in which both teams decided to try and set a record by not worrying about defense (besides steals) and just playing offense as fast as possible:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4afzQyGo5Q

The annoying bit in the first two minutes can be skipped if you get too annoyed. Actual content starts at ~2:15.

This video is pretty good.

TheChirurgeon
Aug 7, 2002

Remember how good you are
Taco Defender

Xarbala posted:

This video is pretty good.

It's like a master class on how to use music and narration to make something appear waaaaaaaaaay more dramatic than it is

evilmiera
Dec 14, 2009

Status: Ravenously Rambunctious

tallkidwithglasses posted:

A bunch of people at FW have died recently too- Bligh was the most recent but a car full of their designers crashed a year or two ago which contributed to Infernos delay. Honestly, I can't blame their release schedule at this point.

Turns out FW aren't the evil ones, I am :(

I mean yes their rules were awful years back too, but still.

LordAba
Oct 22, 2012

by FactsAreUseless
Played a couple games of 8th. One step forward two steps back.

Cover is dumb Infinity poo poo which means I'm going to have to make a bunch of new terrain to cart between the shop and back. Hey, you can see the toe of my monster through a tiny crack in the wall... of COURSE I wouldn't get any sort of save from that. Terrain is dead, long live terrain.
I can see 99% of my games against a character or two buffing a shooting core surrounded by bubblewrap to push deepstrikers 9" out. I'll have to crack the meta by fielding 200+ gaunts to sit on objectives which makes for a fun game. Thanks for getting rid of the one tool that we had to prevent this (blasts).
The back-and-forth in close combat isn't as bad as I thought with chargers going first, but it is still pretty stupid. I see command rerolls being used mostly for re rolling damage results.

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Saalkin
Jun 29, 2008


40k is still a bad game?! Mods?!!?

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