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Apparently WOTC bumped up the number of players needed for some level of tournament support a couple of months ago. So the guy running tournaments around here decided to ragequit the game in response, and took the entire local Magic community with him. Just flat-out no games of Magic here any more. It was a weirdly sudden change. Still the same four guys playing Age Of Sigmar every week, though.
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Jul 5, 2017 16:23
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Brofessor Slayton posted:Apparently WOTC bumped up the number of players needed for some level of tournament support a couple of months ago. So the guy running tournaments around here decided to ragequit the game in response, and took the entire local Magic community with him. Is this tied into that whole judges lawsuit? That whole mess has really spoiled the pot for community support programs.
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Jul 5, 2017 16:25
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w00tmonger posted:Is this tied into that whole judges lawsuit? That whole mess has really spoiled the pot for community support programs. I have no idea. I just showed up one week having been sick the one before, and there were no Magic players. I didn't get any of the story for weeks because outside of the Magic community (who mostly vanished) nobody else knew what happened. Mage Wars seems to have taken over instead.
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Jul 5, 2017 16:37
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LordAba posted:Played a couple games of 8th. One step forward two steps back. Apparently some friends of mine are playing Lord of the Rings again so I was flipping through my Return of the King rules and it uses true line of sight with the caveat of don't be stupid about it, it's just a model.
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Jul 5, 2017 17:00
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w00tmonger posted:Is this tied into that whole judges lawsuit? That whole mess has really spoiled the pot for community support programs. That sounds pretty unrelated to me. They should've just done what everyone else does and lie wholesale about their nuumbers.
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Jul 5, 2017 17:02
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Atlas Hugged posted:Apparently some friends of mine are playing Lord of the Rings again so I was flipping through my Return of the King rules and it uses true line of sight with the caveat of don't be stupid about it, it's just a model. I enjoyed that rule set for skirmishes. I'm trying to get my friend into historicals that way, since he already has the old LOTR models and he's trying to become a history teacher anyway. At least his true scale 28mm figures will be useful for something other than a great, but dead, game.
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Jul 5, 2017 17:16
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Brofessor Slayton posted:Apparently WOTC bumped up the number of players needed for some level of tournament support a couple of months ago. So the guy running tournaments around here decided to ragequit the game in response, and took the entire local Magic community with him. I don't understand how that is possible for an entire gaming community to vanish because of one guy. That's nuts. I've known a few dudes that could definitely swing how people played and get some to switch systems or whatever but not to the extent that everyone just disappears.
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Jul 5, 2017 18:02
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Radish posted:I don't understand how that is possible for an entire gaming community to vanish because of one guy. That's nuts. I've known a few dudes that could definitely swing how people played and get some to switch systems or whatever but not to the extent that everyone just disappears. I've seen it happen before if there are nearby competing LGSs. Magic "leader" gets tired of the owner's BS and just decides to take everyone there with him to another LGS. This process usually sucks because that means those people were fanatical enough to all agree to it, which means they are all grinders who will now infect another shop.
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Jul 5, 2017 18:18
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Chill la Chill posted:I enjoyed that rule set for skirmishes. I'm trying to get my friend into historicals that way, since he already has the old LOTR models and he's trying to become a history teacher anyway. At least his true scale 28mm figures will be useful for something other than a great, but dead, game. I remember being demo'd some LotR games before War of the Ring came out and it seemed to be a cool fun skirmish game. I strongly thought about getting into it but then GW went to a one man store system and they transferred the cool manager for a new guy who killed the Fantasy scene in that area.
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Jul 6, 2017 01:16
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Cover in 8th is useless, except for infantry and even then, they're going to be facing no end of tanks and super heavies because now, the only restriction is points and not slots. No, being able to wound one of five tanks on sixes with small arms is not a counter argument. Shooting all weapons from ANYWHERE on the hull is loving dumb as hell. Oh and codexes are coming back, guys! Codexes are coming back! Prepare to pay 20% more for those fuckers, like the big, dumb, consumer whores you are!
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Jul 6, 2017 02:28
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It's so weird to me that there are people who are surprised about codexes coming back.
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Jul 6, 2017 02:56
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It's weird that people expected free rules, being told they'd be free and yet, still ended up paying for them. New GW is good, y'all!
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Jul 6, 2017 03:13
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Atlas Hugged posted:Apparently some friends of mine are playing Lord of the Rings again so I was flipping through my Return of the King rules and it uses true line of sight with the caveat of don't be stupid about it, it's just a model. I'm sure everyone can easily tell precisely what is "stupid" TOLS and what is not, despite it somehow being impossible to commit to words
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Jul 6, 2017 03:29
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S.J. posted:It's so weird to me that there are people who are surprised about codexes coming back. Seriously. They were very clear about that from the outset. Like sure, be mad about it or whatever, but if you were caught by surprise that's on you
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Jul 6, 2017 04:08
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That said, I wish the indices were free releases at the very least. I understand the stopgap rules were the product of hard work and man-hours and should be appreciated, but some of them are being obsoleted (at least in part) in the span of a few months.
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Jul 6, 2017 04:54
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They should have been, yeah. They were very disingenuous about 'free' rules. Although, again, can't say I'm surprised.
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Jul 6, 2017 05:03
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Yeah it was bad form to not make the indices free in some form or another.
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Jul 6, 2017 05:29
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S.J. posted:They should have been, yeah. They were very disingenuous about 'free' rules. Although, again, can't say I'm surprised. "How can I get the rules? We’re going to make it easier than ever to get your hands on the rules and start playing. The core rules for the game will be free, and you’ll have several options on how you get your hands on the full rulebook. Watch this space for more." Not really. The only hazy thing is what counts as core rules, and the only things not really present in the core rules are matched play stuff like detachments and mission objectives. As units come with their data sheets upon order, theoretically you could play the game entirely without rulebooks. That said, this great for people starting 8th, but atrocious for anyone who already has a big standing army. Indices not being free is basically a huge bar to this being a perfect clean slate. Or at least, as perfect as you can get for a game as bloated as 40k. The Bee fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Jul 6, 2017 |
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Jul 6, 2017 05:37
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The Bee posted:The only hazy thing is what counts as core rules so, like, the rules?  TheChirurgeon posted:Yeah it was bad form to not make the indices free in some form or another. At bare minimum, not making your 'core rules' (lmao) include all of the rules in your core rulebook is a huge gently caress you. They treated this entire exercise like they had turned a new leaf after the AoS reception, but, whelp. S.J. fucked around with this message at 07:19 on Jul 6, 2017 |
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Jul 6, 2017 07:16
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S.J. posted:so, like, the rules? But they did include all the rules in the core rulebook. The rest of the rulebook is basically just mission types and a few rules for tournament play that were 95% revealed on the official website already. They also clearly said "these will not be the full rules" several times during the edition's launch. Is it more expensive than I'd like? Yeah. But they weren't lying in the slightest. If they did the exact same release, but renamed the rulebook "Setting Info and Missions," would you feel like it was the same gently caress you? Because that's literally what it boils down to. The Bee fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Jul 6, 2017 |
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Jul 6, 2017 07:26
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:I'm sure everyone can easily tell precisely what is "stupid" TOLS and what is not, despite it somehow being impossible to commit to words You're never going to hear me defend TLOS. It's a garbage mechanic at the best of time, but at least GW has previously acknowledged the imprecise nature of it and attempted to address it in the rules. That doesn't mean they were successful mind you, just that they acknowledged the problem.
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Jul 6, 2017 08:10
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S.J. posted:so, like, the rules? Enh... I don't really agree. All the core rules are free, save a few missions (the free rules include one scenario). Given that they include datasheets with models now, you *should* have everything you need to play just buying models, if they've been updated to contain the new rules (which they probably haven't at this point). That said, if all you had were the free core rules and one $25 index book, you'd be perfectly set. It's a big improvement over a $60 rulebook and a $60 codex, even with new codices eventually replacing most of the indices.
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Jul 6, 2017 11:17
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Atlas Hugged posted:You're never going to hear me defend TLOS. It's a garbage mechanic at the best of time, but at least GW has previously acknowledged the imprecise nature of it and attempted to address it in the rules. That doesn't mean they were successful mind you, just that they acknowledged the problem. I mean, this is just another wording of the "gentleman's agreement" stuff, it's GW's go-to idea for how you're supposed to handle the fact that they can't be bothered to write functional rules
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Jul 6, 2017 14:59
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What's the state of 8th right now? Are people still charmed with it?
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Jul 6, 2017 15:00
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w00tmonger posted:What's the state of 8th right now? Are people still charmed with it? I guess, despite it basically being AoS-a-like. Not a bad thing, it does fix a lot of stuff that AoS does wrong, but still. Also, terrain is pretty loving useless as written. We will have to see when the codices come out if they are going to go in any crazy balance breaking direction.
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Jul 6, 2017 15:15
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LordAba posted:We will have to see when the codices come out if they are going to go in any crazy balance breaking direction. Hope is the first step on the long road to disappointment.
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Jul 6, 2017 15:25
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LordAba posted:I guess, despite it basically being AoS-a-like. Not a bad thing, it does fix a lot of stuff that AoS does wrong, but still. Also, terrain is pretty loving useless as written. I like what my friend calls the "peekaboo" mechanics, where you nudge just far enough to be able to shoot one at one guy around a corner, then kill the rest of the squad with wound overflow.  TheChirurgeon posted:Enh... I don't really agree. All the core rules are free, save a few missions (the free rules include one scenario). Given that they include datasheets with models now, you *should* have everything you need to play just buying models, if they've been updated to contain the new rules (which they probably haven't at this point). That said, if all you had were the free core rules and one $25 index book, you'd be perfectly set. It's a big improvement over a $60 rulebook and a $60 codex, even with new codices eventually replacing most of the indices. I'm just wondering why they didn't go the route of just making expensive indices in the first place. Just stuff them full of all the background stuff the codices had, make them hardcover, and make everyone pay for it.
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Jul 6, 2017 15:29
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LordAba posted:I guess, despite it basically being AoS-a-like. Not a bad thing, it does fix a lot of stuff that AoS does wrong, but still. Also, terrain is pretty loving useless as written. It's been a while for me but at least in Fantasy the army books was where the game broke down severely. 7th edition was actually a pretty good rule set and fixed some of the issues of 6th but then three books in they gave army wide ASF to High Elves and it was downhill from there. The Arch Lector on the War Altar was also a huge mistake but it wasn't as game breaking as what followed.
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Jul 6, 2017 15:43
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The Bee posted:But they did include all the rules in the core rulebook. The rest of the rulebook is basically just mission types and a few rules for tournament play that were 95% revealed on the official website already. They also clearly said "these will not be the full rules" several times during the edition's launch. Is it more expensive than I'd like? Yeah. But they weren't lying in the slightest. Actually the free rules don't include any of the FoC charts or command point rules, and only the most basic terrain rule, which are pretty big parts of the core rules set in my eyes. Although, granted, they did a pretty good job of making terrain somewhat irrelevant from what I've seen. I actually am happy that the new rulebook is considerably less expensive than the last one, however. Putting the hardcover version in the starter set was a good move.
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Jul 6, 2017 17:16
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S.J. posted:Actually the free rules don't include any of the FoC charts or command point rules, and only the most basic terrain rule, which are pretty big parts of the core rules set in my eyes. Although, granted, they did a pretty good job of making terrain somewhat irrelevant from what I've seen. That's very fair. They revealed enough of the FOC info on the web that I glossed over it, but you're right that it's the most essential omission from the core rules. Between that and the absolutely boneheaded way GW handled points, their treatment of competitive playstyles is something I'm quite unhappy with this edition. As for the terrain rules, I really hope they're either errata'd or changed in general. Everything else depending on model visibility makes wound allocation in this fashion really strange, even if you use the excuse of the battlefield constantly shifting. The advanced rules seem mixed to me too, with some good to know in general like forests, ruins, and obstacles, but others like pipes and battlezones seeming really weirdly specific. It's a good guidance for homebrew in general, at least. I could easily take the Empire shrine and make it the rule for a Great Heap of Mork, for example. So I'll agree that's #2 on the big, glaring omissions list. While I agree on the core rulebook, I still hope codices continue this trend of cheaper books. Core rules being cheaper is nice, but the game getting exponentially more expensive for each army owned is still an irritating trend. This is moreso after many people spent 25 dollars for a stopgap of all things. I'm sure if they allow you to trade your index in for a codex / a discount on a codex, it would go a long way to get some goodwill back over the initial index launches.
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Jul 6, 2017 17:36
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The Bee posted:While I agree on the core rulebook, I still hope codices continue this trend of cheaper books. Core rules being cheaper is nice, but the game getting exponentially more expensive for each army owned is still an irritating trend. This is moreso after many people spent 25 dollars for a stopgap of all things. I'm sure if they allow you to trade your index in for a codex / a discount on a codex, it would go a long way to get some goodwill back over the initial index launches. I want to believe, but I'm not holding my breath.
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Jul 6, 2017 17:36
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S.J. posted:I want to believe, but I'm not holding my breath. Honestly? Me too. We have probably the best solid core 40k's had in a while, with a few warts here and there and some bland parts from paring down a lot of unique faction aspects. Will they polish it to a shine, or prove they can't help themselves and get GW all over it? Well, we find out this month, I imagine.
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Jul 6, 2017 17:41
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Radish posted:It's been a while for me but at least in Fantasy the army books was where the game broke down severely. 7th edition was actually a pretty good rule set and fixed some of the issues of 6th but then three books in they gave army wide ASF to High Elves and it was downhill from there. The Arch Lector on the War Altar was also a huge mistake but it wasn't as game breaking as what followed. This is kind of like 7th 40k. The basic rules were a decent enough evolution of 6th, but then they released formations that gave certain armies 300+ free points of wargear while other armies got... hammer of wraith if they rolled a 10 or above (think the old ogre charge rules on S3 infantry).
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Jul 6, 2017 17:50
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LordAba posted:This is kind of like 7th 40k. The basic rules were a decent enough evolution of 6th, but then they released formations that gave certain armies 300+ free points of wargear while other armies got... hammer of wraith if they rolled a 10 or above (think the old ogre charge rules on S3 infantry). Yeah with 7th edition Fantasy it was all over the place. You had High Elves and Vampire Counts which had changes to their fundamental army rules which ended up being overpowered but not totally broken. Then Demons and Dark Elves which were clearly the army book writers (Matt Ward and Gav Thorpe respectively) basically writing totally game breaking books because they were huge fan boys that couldn't help themselves and just made their wet dreams a reality. However there was Beasts of Chaos which just flopped so it wasn't pure army creep. They just had no idea how to balance their armies and absolutely no plan for how they would work against each other in context of the game they designed. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Jul 6, 2017 |
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Jul 6, 2017 17:59
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something tells me that space marines and eldar might be... good
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Jul 6, 2017 18:01
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Chill la Chill posted:I like what my friend calls the "peekaboo" mechanics, where you nudge just far enough to be able to shoot one at one guy around a corner, then kill the rest of the squad with wound overflow. They've said that the stuff that the codexes don't cover is weird one-off poo poo like the "Imperial Space Marine" 30th anniversary figure. Once your army gets a codex, you won't *need* your index, and they've said the codex will overwrite any rules that appear in the both the codex and the index. You won't *need* the Index any more than you'd *need* your army's Forgeworld Index
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Jul 6, 2017 18:20
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Wait, if codices rules overwrite others, aren't they pretty much mandatory?
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Jul 6, 2017 18:28
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Iceclaw posted:Wait, if codices rules overwrite others, aren't they pretty much mandatory? Basically, yeah. Along with being the most up to date rules, they also seem to be where all the interesting stuff hid between editions.
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Jul 6, 2017 18:32
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I mean, of course the codexes were going to be mandatory. They can charge you the cost of a rulebook for each one 
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Jul 6, 2017 18:54
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Iceclaw posted:Wait, if codices rules overwrite others, aren't they pretty much mandatory? If you want to play in any kind of structured environment, yeah. The basic rulebook stuff only covers the game rules, and doesn't cover unit/faction rules, though models come with those now (it isn't enough to really play on long-term). You basically still need to buy a codex for your army. Though this shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone, since GW was talking about Codexes coming back before the new edition came out. S.J. posted:I mean, of course the codexes were going to be mandatory. They can charge you the cost of a rulebook for each one I'd mind this a lot less if they charged less for digital editions. And also if they keep their promise of updating/adjusting rules on a regular basis, which so far they seem to be doing--they've already fixed a bunch of units and points costs.
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Jul 6, 2017 18:59
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