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Hello; hopefully this is a non stupid way of getting some advice! I uh, looking at this now, this does feel a bit stream of consciousness, so, you have my apologies, I'm glad there's any outlet at all here for this kind of thing. I play with a burgeoning and very amateur UK based ceilidh band (think barn dance, but scottish/irish) who've recently come into possession of a 2nd hand PA system. Previous owner purchased it for a situation just like ours - a small Ceilidh band, so, hopefully it will tick boxes, as it will be difficult to supplement it due to monetary constraints - this is proper, hobby level 'making do' tier, I'm afraid. (Most members are partially or fully retired) Basically: We/I want to understand and do the most with what we have, and if it this system can't do something then so be it, because we're too broke to do much about it. Also I'm hoping to avoid breaking anything by being dumb. Things to know: The band play mostly acoustic instruments and usually play outside, unamplified, for dancing. The goal is to play things like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh9xJL141ZM or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofj5B7cZD90 People come to dance, more than anything else, usually in like church halls or school gyms or hotel reception rooms or whatever. We are made up of: 1 Caller + 1 Diatonic Accordion player (me) 1 Fiddle player 1 Piano Accordion player 1 Electronic Keyboard player 1 Recorder/Whistle/Drummer 1 Electric Bass player What we have:
What we don't have:
Things I don't know about : Would the 1/4" input jacks on the mixer be mono or stereo? I can't work it out from the manual, so I guess they're all mono? I'm, uh, new to this and I guess I'm more used to CD players, headphones, and computers. Everything is screaming 'they're mono' but I don't trust myself. Phantom Power and XLR Being that there's 6 EQed inputs, and there's 6 instrument playing members, we're basically maxing out the mixer's inputs already. According to the Manual, you can use the XLR Mic inputs as well as 1/4" inputs simultaneously, though the issue being that they do get EQed together. It seems to me that the Phantom power being either on or off across all Mic inputs is probably bad. Is there a healthy/sensible way to use the XLR inputs to supplement what we're doing or should I just ignore them until someone gets an XLR using device? How might this bite us in the rear end? How should the keyboard be integrated? So (excluding the Bass which has sorted itself out already by being completely isolated) out of all of our instruments, the only electronic one that we have is the keyboard. It's something like a yamaha psr 170, just some pretty regular home keyboard. This has a single 1/4" jack output that the manual says is for stereo headphones, and that it can be used for that or for an external amp connection. All the 1/4" cables we got are mono. When you plug something into the keyboard, it turns off the integrated speakers, and they can't really hear themselves play any more, which splits into two problems - first, is plugging a mono cable into a stereo output jack going to do weird stuff? (gut says yes) - do we need to use a splitter and use 2 of the mixer inputs? Would one of the stereo inputs (input 7 or 8) be suitable for this, I can't quite decide if that's... safe? sensible? Will we miss the EQ? The manual talks about Aux inputs but I can't work out which those are exactly and it usually talks about connecting these to CD players and the like, but, I think these inputs are rated just the same as the others and should be fine for this? Secondly: Do we (really) need a monitor solution? While we already have either I guess 400W Stereo, we could have 200W Mono + a monitor amp and speaker. We could also get another amp and a speaker to turn into a monitor, but, this would be a further financial investment on a rather untested project. I have no idea how under of over rated this speaker system would be for the spaces we are likely to deal with, or how we can find out. We actually did a test run some months ago without any of this equipment and it went OK, but calling didn't go so well. How would someone who knows what they're doing solve this problem?
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Apr 6, 2018 06:40
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| # ¿ May 12, 2024 09:05 |
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Grand Prize Winner posted:What made calling difficult? From what I could tell in the video you posted it seemed like most of the band was clustered fairly close together and not playing super-loud music, so you could probably get away without monitoring in most situations. I'd say you definitely want to have both of those speakers sending out sound to the audience though. For monitoring I'd recommend an active wedge instead of bothering with a separate amp/speaker arrangement. That'll simplify logistics for you a fair bit, and it'll cost the same or a little less than separate components. Thank you for the feedback, the info is very helpful! Nothing we have right now uses XLR, or Phantom power; I'm kinda just thinking about some future where we have 2 XLR pick ups, one that needs phantom power and one that mustn't have it, but, a) counting chickens b) there's probably something you can do electrically to buffer out the phantom power for a given device. (edit - just to add, manual says on input specifications: "LINE INPUT and MIC INPUT connectors are balanced and others are unbalanced.", so, I guess it does support balanced 1/4" dealies.) An all in one dedicated monitor/wedge speaker makes a lot of sense and wasn't something I really realised existed, although it seems obvious now. According to the manual, the mixer has a 'monitor buss' that goes to a mono line level output, and you can adjust the mix of this line independently from what gets sent to the speaker amps and the dancers/audience/FOH - seems like it would be pretty handy, and could function as a 'next step' from simply getting any solution for the keyboard, and do an inventory of the cables we actually have and see about getting it connected up properly. I'll float the idea of a dedicated but small affair for the keyboard the next time we meet - it seems kinda silly really, if the keyboard didn't turn off its own speakers we could probably get away with just that for the time being. And, what made calling difficult before, at our 'unplugged'/'test' event was that our caller could not bellow loudly over all of the music (even if she could it would get very tiring). She actually had like a basic wired mic + a small speaker box set up, but a) it wasn't very powerful at all, and she put it right next to the band so she could still also talk to us, and b) it couldn't move with her, if she had to eg show the dancers how to do a move or to help make up a set, so, she could only communicate with so many other dancers near her (which was fine for the dancers in that circumstance) but it was still damning because then the band couldn't hear her, and in one case we didn't know she adjusted the dance to suit and we got out of sync and mistimed the ending. I feel that the wireless mics that we've got will solve basically all the calling related problems, and I realise now that poor wording on my part drew more attention to the calling aspect of this question - what I had been trying to say was, we mostly play acoustically together normally anyway and may be loud enough on stage to play together and hear one another. Mastigophoran fucked around with this message at 11:25 on Apr 6, 2018 |
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Apr 6, 2018 10:58
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Brute Squad posted:A Big write up Hey, thanks a lot of this! So, the accordion pickup we have is a Microvox M310, so far as I'm aware this is as much as you get for instruction: http://www.microvox.co.uk/acc_instr.pdf The Violin pickup is, I suspect based on my recollection of it's appearance, a cheap ~£10 Cherub pickup, with a hard wired 2 pole 1/4" cable. In both cases I believe that they provide an unbalanced output. The 'Drummer' changes what instrument they're playing based on the type of tune that we're playing. Additionally, when they are drumming, they don't play a kit; they're playing a single side drum with/without snare, and honestly they should probably swap to a Bodhrán. Currently they intend to use one of the 2 wireless mics, which I think is probably a bad idea, as a) I think they have a pretty narrow frequency response and b) they'll be getting mixed with the caller. The mics are a CRAGE CR-306 system, but I can't find a trace of them on the internet. I wouldn't have thought to use a vocal mic over an instrument for this but will proceed with that if it's concluded they need something. For myself, I'm not sure I'm keen to get a mic on a boom set up. I've researched quite a bit on melodeon.net - a website devoted to diatonic accordions. Some people do like this set up, with a tie clip mic on their bass strap to pickup enough of what's going on back there, but, I think I like to move around too much to use that set up - those that prefer it tend to change instrument a lot. Other solutions are clip on goose neck mics such as this kind of a set up or this, and finally there are accordion specific pickups, like the microvox m310 or newer 400 series mics, or Myers Pickups do some as well - my understanding is that these are likely only mediocre but very easy to set up for gigging. I don't know anyone local to me who would be able to install an in instrument system, and a lot of people I've seen talk about them on melnet have had mixed experiences with them that kind of pushes me from really considering it. My preference at the moment is the 'good enough' gigging accordion specific mics. I've picked up a handfull of cheap adapters/splitters from Maplin today (they're closing down and selling things off quite cheaply, including potentially vaguely ok PA gear). I intend to go again before they shut up shop and try and collect some of things you've advised us to get, as well as a few more cables. There's no vocalists, or singers, or anything like that - the caller simply provides instructions/teaches the dance (think of it as a barn dance, eg, everyone in, everyone out, lead couple go down the set etc). The rest is all music. Gear ownership wise, I agree, I think we should liquidate the accordion pickup to the piano accordion player, and then put the burden of pickup gear on the players themselves, that way it's theirs to own even if things don't work out or they move on etc. Thanks for the rest of the advice, I shall take it on board. We have access to a label printer and can label the inputs up etc, and I've been working on a diagram so we know who's going to be plugged in where. I'm looking at the possibility of purchasing an active speaker for use as a monitor, too, but, a practice amp may be way better. We're not planning to get beyond the 'small school disco' tier of gear though.
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Apr 14, 2018 19:04
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Yep, exactly those, except we have no box or manual (if there is indeed a manual). They work well for giving instruction and the odd announcement but I feel like you wouldn't really want to sing into them, don't currently know their frequency response specs. I think they'd pick up a drum beat just fine but I have some doubts about the higher register instruments. Then again, it might work great. The mics have an on/off rocker switch, and I don't think there's any independent volume control on the receiver station for them, it just mixes the two together onto a single 1/4" output. Actually, we probably won't be spread out enough to warrant particularly long cables, probably 5m / 15' would be overkill. I suspect we'll get away with the unbalanced wiring, not least because we have quite a few lengths of it currently. I will be mindful of hums and similar problems, and certainly keep an eye out for + keep in mind DI boxes if anything causes us problems, and additionally mindful of it given the possibility of moving certain pickups over to XLR (eg the Microvox M310 accordion pickup suggests using it but to never send phantom power). It does however make me think to buy eg 5 meter instead of eg 10 meter cables if we need to supplement the cabling - I assume we should just buy balanced/stereo/TRS cables? (I found out TRS means Tip Ring Sleeve) Or, does it turn out this is bad because eg it ends up being left floating at one end? I seem to recall that being a factor in cable grounding. I took a rough inventory of our cables (that I assume would be inane to share here), we have reasonable selection to be getting started with, but (perhaps unsurprisingly) never more than 1 of the same kind. I think we may actually have a cable for everyone in the band. We have a long dual 1/4" m2m unbalanced cable (breaks out to 2 connectors at each end but merges into a single cable), so, that can go into a Stereo->2xMono splitter for the keyboard and into one of the stereo inputs in the mixer. We also have a similar cable but that's m2f, which could be used as an extension for some of the other instruments combined with some of the shorter cable lengths (eg violin player's pickup has a modest but short cable). That same extension could then be used to connect eg the accordion pickup with a shorter m2m cable too, although I have a feeling that running signals like that close to one another is probably a poor choice, and that it might share the ground/shield. Fortunately, we have another dual cable that's m2f, but, the male end is a 1/4" + XLR, with 2 female 1/4" the far end, so... I'm not sure what that's for, exactly, but I assume we could probably use that (or not) for any XLR preferring pickup. The only thing we don't have is an XLR to XLR cable to connect eg the Bass amp up, if we go that route (and I don't know the bass amp has an XLR out because I never really looked at it) The final thing of note, I also took inventory of our speakers. We have a pair of Phonic SE 712 speakers, POWER: 150W(RMS) 250W(PROGRAM) Impedance: 8 ohms. I think that matches up with our amp the alright way around? My understanding is that these should be fine and we won't blow them up probably but we shouldn't play music through them all the time at high power because they'll overheat? Also we should dust them. I'm keeping an eye on local 2nd hand sites (we don't have craigslist, but, imagine that we do) for any cheap modestly powerful (eg 80-100w) active speakers, that could work either as a stage monitor or an individual amp for the keyboardist. I'm a bit worried about adding more weight etc to move around since, aside from myself, almost everyone is retired. Thank you again for the advice.
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Apr 15, 2018 11:31
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First amped up gig this Saturday; a 1 hour Ceilidh. Paid, too. It's in a village hall/community center, so, I think we're just going to be left to our own devices. As the designated person-who-did-any-research-at-all-or-read-the-manual and is thus in charge of the mixing desk + audio, while also being a needed Band Member, they also want us to play our regular unamplified music out the front in the 30 minutes before we're supposed to start so I now have a third place to be at the same time and we have no set up time whatsoever. And, there are other events being run in the hall before we get use of it so we can't even set up ahead of time, or at least that's what I'm being told. I have no idea who organised/scheduled this but I will be having some words with them, I think. We'll be going in with barely any testing or familiarity with our PA system, especially from other band members as they are ignorant, some wilfully, of it and what to expect, and without a dedicated person on the controls. I believe the current plan is that I duck out of that live performance out front, and do as much set up and wiring ahead of time as possible on the stage inside, but, there's still no time to figure out how much of what person needs to be coming out of which end, which is something we've never had the time to work out in amongst rehearsing because of constant changes to repertoire. I have a stage plot drawn up and a list of which cables I want running where, and little coloured ties to go on each one that I can hopefully set up before hand so we can paint by numbers when the time comes. I think I'm as prepared as I possibly can be, so yeah... I'm going to spend my remaining time trying to get guidance on stage safety and safe ways to run cables, so that in the 0 minutes I will have to set everything up, I can do it in a way that doesn't get someone injured. Thank you again, Live Sound megathread...
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Jul 20, 2018 02:59
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It went ok and nobody died! Got the stage set up in the 30 minutes while everyone else played for the unamped set, put the mixer behind me as.. someone somewhere suggested, and just adjusted things from there. Discovered the unamped set wasn't outside, as I had been told, but literally in the same room, so, I couldn't even test the keyboard foldback etc. At any rate, got it all wired up, colour coded stickers on cables was a cool idea for sort of, figuring out what I wanted to achieve, but on stage, there's lights, and in pink light, green looks like grey, so, maybe write some stuff on there too. Fortunately all our cables look different so I could still tell them apart, but, it was annoying. Ultimately I made quite a few set up mistakes (one quite big one - looks like I had a really important option set completely wrong so instead of outputting Main onto L and R and monitor onto foldback, I potentially was sending Main onto L only, and monitor onto R... not 100% if I did that yet). Buuuut it seemed like it went ok and everyone seemed to have fun. Photographed and wrote down everything we had setting wise at the end of the gig so hopefully we can build off of that in the future. I wish our mixer had adjustable Instrument/Line level switches for its 1/4" inputs, as pretty much everything is going to have to go through an adapter into XLR. Going to have to experiment as right now our wireless mics input on 1/4" are cranked to the max. Anyway, no one died/no accidents, no major snafus, stage set up was a bit of a mess because it was less wide than I expected and we have some dumb implementations on changing instruments atm. Some cables are too short for their current usage purpose, some are a little long. We were 100% left to our own devices, no one was running the room at all except me, I guess, with just our PA system. Turns out: stages are really warm. Without this thread as a resource, and the advice I got from you all, this would have been a disaster.
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Jul 21, 2018 19:59
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| # ¿ May 12, 2024 09:05 |
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One of the band members (keyboardist) wants to try being miced up on their accordion & concertina. I know it's popular for accordion players to have a decent cardioid mic aimed at the melody end, and a cheap simple lav mic clipped onto their bass strap for the bass. How terrible an idea would it be to get a couple of really cheap lav mics, like, < $30 total from amazon, and just stick one either side of their concertina, to let them get going? I'm looking specifically at MAONO AU200 these since they're a) cheap b) there's 2 of them c) battery powered d) youtube seems to like the make, but, they're not designed for being very close to the sound source, so, they may come in really hot or just clip/distort. My hope if it's just wrong we can return/resell easily enough and it won't break their bank account. I never did mention it but we got a little second hand Marshall amp speaker thing from a shop to solve our monitor woes. Also one of the band members left.
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Aug 7, 2018 22:03
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