Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia - Zelda II: The Adventure of Alm

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia - Zelda II: The Adventure of Alm

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Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

to be fair the ign review was pretty positive overall, not just super enthused. which is fair.

# ¿ May 16, 2017 17:41

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 19:11

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

to be fair the heavily expanded dungeon crawling is an echoes thing, not a gaiden thing. and there are things that gaiden did that I see being praised, like how mages work or the lack of a weapon triangle.

# ¿ May 16, 2017 17:46

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

Avalerion posted:

No weapon triangle, guess that means you just whack away with the strongest thing you got?

Weapons don't really work like other fire emblem games. Everyone only has one inventory slot and weapons just alter your stats slightly, and you don't need to have a weapon equipped to attack or anything, everyone just has a default sword/lance/whatever they'll use.

No weapon triangle mostly just means you worry more about stats and terrain.

# ¿ May 16, 2017 17:49

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

In order:

1 item/unit is kind of neat.
Fixed accuracy for spells is interesting since hit rates are such a problem in the early game: it makes mages useful in a unique way.
Terrain with +60 goddamn avoid can be countered by weapon skills you learn very early on or by mages.
Female units are some of the best units in the game - the lack of tier 3 classes doesn't impact them at all. It's more like they start in tier 2 than anything, and the reason they function this way is probably just that in OG Gaiden Alm gets literally two female units for 90% of the game, and by the time you get to Celica's chapter some of Alm's guys have already promoted. It's not 'women don't get to promote!" it's just the female units working in a way that makes sense given the progression of the game. Dichotomy between the genders is actually a theme of Gaiden so at least there's a narrative reason for the guys and the girls to be slightly different in a mechanical sense.
The fatigue system only comes up at the very, very end of the game, and you're drowning in food so much that it's hardly worth worrying about.
The maps are kinda crap but there's no pair-up cocking up the game and you aren't drowning in reinforcements the way awakening and fates liked you to be. gently caress the desert though.
Bows do barely any damage and are very inaccurate, and aren't effective against fliers.

# ¿ May 16, 2017 17:55

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

it does but there's also a gimmick called mila's turnwheel where you can turn back time a turn or two which lets you do different moves and save someone from dying. it's got limited uses but it restores uses fairly often. so you can play casual, classic while using the turnwheel, or just pure classic.

# ¿ May 16, 2017 18:01

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

marshmallow creep posted:

Which classes look coolest for which villagers? That is all I need to know.

Tobin: Archer or Soldier.
Gray: Mercenary or Cavalier.
Kliff: Mercenary or Mage.
Faye: Pegasus Knight or Mage.
Atlas: Archer or Cavalier.

# ¿ May 16, 2017 18:02

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

Kind of? Realistically, you weren't really using those tradeoffs that much, mostly just switching to 1-2 range weapons when you needed them or equipping stuff that was effective against whatever you were hitting. Sometimes you'd switch to whatever was more accurate even if it did less damage, or fish for a crit, but there weren't really that many tactical considerations. Fates kind of changed that, but it kind of overcorrected imo, it had a huge floating numbers problem.

Weapon Skills sort of make up for the lack of them, plus Echoes emphasizes positioning, terrain, and enemy prioritization over who to send to attack/what weapon to use to attack with/etc. And since you deploy every unit in every battle (except in dungeons) you can sort of think of your two cavaliers/three mercenaries as your different 'weapon' options.

# ¿ May 16, 2017 18:08

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

marshmallow creep posted:

What I saw in some videos of people playing late game suggests non mages can learn skills that work a bit like spells to do certain tricks. Like an archer can learn some kind of super shot skill that lets him hit from even further away for the cost of a few hp.

You learn skills from weapons. The longer you have a weapon equipped, the more wexp you get with it. Different weapons teach different skills, but you need the same weapon equipped to use the skill. So Alm learns a skill that lets him attack twice in a row from the Regal Blade, he learns it by using the regal blade a lot, and he has to have the regal blade equipped to use it. Skills have to be activated on the player phase, don't let you double, and cost HP.

# ¿ May 16, 2017 18:10

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

Zore posted:

Fair enough on the weapon skills though, and the every unit deployment though. It looks like Echoes overall just doesn't have a ton of variety in classes/weapons anyways.

The player has access to maybe 6-7 classes total, yeah. Fortunately the small roster and split nature of the game means most everyone has a unique niche to fill anyway. For instance, Celica gets like 4 mercenaries, but Saber's unique niche is being an early game tank for an army of mages, Kamui's is being a pretty strong offensive unit that usually doubles, Dean's is being a lategame glasscannon, and Jesse's niche is being bad. (Okay he has great bases and growths but he comes pretty late and his best growth is inexplicably luck) Not to mention stuff like mages and clerics having personalized spell lists, which is something I adore.

# ¿ May 16, 2017 18:15

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

Internet Kraken posted:

On the fence about this. Don't have any nostalgia for this game since I never played it. Kind of feel like if I went back to such an old janky game I'd just end up wishing I was playing Conquest instead.

This game felt like a breath of fresh air to me after conquest, but I've really soured on pair-up and its map design since it came out, so your mileage may vary. It isn't really that janky, though - some of the map designs are a little janky, but they've smoothed over a lot of the mechanical cracks. Supports and weapon skills help with the weird hit rates, the game's been rebalanced to not be so feast or famine at the start, etc.

# ¿ May 16, 2017 18:25

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

cheetah7071 posted:

I would correct this to "many of the map designs are extremely janky"

your face is extremely janky

# ¿ May 16, 2017 19:21

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

TheOneAndOnlyT posted:

Anyone have an idea of what the difficulty levels are like and how they compare to Awakening and Fates?

normal: about on par with conquest normal
hard: a little less hard than conquest hard

tho i have played gaiden a lot so im used to the game

# ¿ May 16, 2017 19:34

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

RME posted:

how long is sov supposed to be anyways?
its on the shorter side i thought

probably 25-30ish hours, though if you spend any time grinding that shoots up a lot naturally, and the post-game chapter is fairly long.

# ¿ May 16, 2017 19:52

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

having only two tiers isn't any sort of nerf or downgrade or anything, due to how promotion works.

# ¿ May 16, 2017 23:11

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

Tae posted:

If you make Silque the only healer, how exactly does she replenish her health? Nosferatu prayer?

Nosferatu, and there are rings that restore a bit of HP at the start of every turn. Plus the guys all do learn healing spells as sages.

# ¿ May 17, 2017 01:32

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

marshmallow creep posted:

Promoting is done at shrines between regular battles, right?

Yes. There are specific locations on the map that have shrines, so sometimes you'll have to backtrack to them. This only really involves a couple of two minute long battles though.

# ¿ May 17, 2017 02:38

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

Pastrymancy posted:

There are no heart seals in this game, right?

The closest thing is a free dlc item that lets you turn anyone into a villager, where they naturally can then promote into any class. I didn't mess with it but I could see a couple characters doing decently in different classes, like Boey as a physical class.

# ¿ May 17, 2017 02:40

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

i dont think you understand that you're going to have like fourteen mages by the end of the game anyway. there is no secret trick to having an all-mage army, that's just fire emblem gaiden.

# ¿ May 17, 2017 02:49

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

Ruggington posted:

I'm gonna kiss the boys even if intsys doesnt want me to

you aren't in this game, there's no self-insert. also there's no paired endings. there's some pairs but they're all preset by the game.

also leon is explicitly gay.

# ¿ May 17, 2017 06:29

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

Pastrymancy posted:

Oh good that means the writing quality gets a bump

this game's writing has some slight quibbles (there's some go nowhere sideplots, a couple of characters are pretty dull, for some reason every single character in the game has some kind of unrequited love) but it's it's a hell of a lot better than fates, and more focused and streamlined than awakening. helps that the TL is the best of the three.

# ¿ May 18, 2017 04:08

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

Zore posted:

Are they at least less weird about it than with Catria and Cordelia?

i mean, everyone's coping with it in some way. except faye, but faye is just a joke about oldschool FE fans.

# ¿ May 18, 2017 04:54

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

cheetah7071 posted:

I think she's a yandere, not some weird meta-joke

her jp name is efi dude

i don't think it's some 'hahaha intsys just OWNED classic fans....' thing or anything it's just gentle teasing. the director of the game is a huge fe grognard himself and said he's played gaiden like 60 times. if anything it's probably just a self-aware joke more than anything.

# ¿ May 18, 2017 05:29

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

it's worth grabbing the free dlc with the villager fork since that's a fun thing to mess with. the actual dlc dlc is garbage.

# ¿ May 18, 2017 07:03

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

marshmallow creep posted:

What does her japanese name have to do with anything? Why is that a joke or tease?

her personality is the joke/tease. her name just confirms what it's directed at.

# ¿ May 18, 2017 17:24

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

marshmallow creep posted:

Do Kliff and Faye have supports with anyone on Celica's side? Is there a good reason to have her get them besides doing it for the sake of it? I mean, she apparently has her share of peg knights and mercenaries, so I guess they could be her cavaliers?

it's more just a little bonus feature than anything you're meant to do or an actual option you're meant to consider. Something to mess with on replays. In Gaiden, Celica could recruit like 90% of Alm's army if she wanted to, but since they wanted to give those characters more of a plot role they had to cut back on that. Kliff and Faye being recruitable by her is a nod to that aspect of Gaiden.

That said, I think Faye does have a base conversation later in the game if you recruit her with Celica.

# ¿ May 18, 2017 21:50

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

Tae posted:

More details on the Cipher DLC: https://serenesforest.net/2017/05/18/echoes-details-cipher-collab-character-introductions/

They're battle maps, you get two characters per DLC (4 bucks each, 8 total), and they have supports+Base conversations with each other. Also exclusive spells and items.

Also this is the only DLC that seems worthwhile at all to me, since they have supports and stuff. Lol that they had to make Yuzu a priestess due to a lack of female mercenary animations, tho.

# ¿ May 18, 2017 21:53

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

cheetah7071 posted:

So like, if Cipher has original characters, are they from any of the normal FE worlds? Are they just sort of there, in this FE card game, not being FE characters, or are they inserted retroactively into old stories as original character do not steals?

Also the guy on the right is the only one that aesthetically looks like an FE character. The Pegasus Knight on the left could be one maybe though she's still a bit unusual. The two in the middle just straight up don't look like they belong in Fire Emblem.

you're right, i cant believe how out of place and terrible those characters are.

Endorph fucked around with this message at 22:17 on May 18, 2017

# ¿ May 18, 2017 22:13

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

im gonna keep adding female myrmidons to that post until you go 'yeah okay my bad'

# ¿ May 18, 2017 22:15

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

i mean even in that art yuzu looks like kagero and shade looks like tharja

we should go back to the og gaiden art where every single character was the exact same guy in the exact same outfit but with different shades of purple

# ¿ May 18, 2017 22:21

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

Cake Attack posted:

I've thought about it and cheetah is 100% right in this and all arguments

gwah

# ¿ May 18, 2017 23:01

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

Slightly more enemies or different types of enemies, but it's mostly just higher enemy stats. Echoes hard is about on the same level as Conquest hard, I'd say, though slightly easier since the maps themselves are way less of a pain.

# ¿ May 19, 2017 03:15

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

Andrast posted:

I'm a bit past chapter 1 and so far this has been a lot easier than Conquest hard.

wait till you start getting hosed by witches

# ¿ May 19, 2017 05:16

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

quote:

There's no real religion on this; an archer might fight well against one kind of mage, but face certain death against another. I often looked to characters' basic attack stats and how far they could move across a map during each turn to predict how they'd fare in battle, which isn't the most reliable system. More often than not, I crossed my fingers and hoped for the best when I sent characters up against foes.

lol what

# ¿ May 19, 2017 15:43

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

Silver Falcon posted:

Does the game explain itself well enough? I dimly recall you can promote villagers starting at lv 7 or something and there's no reason to wait to promote ever, unlike in every other Fire Emblem game.

The only thing that might trip you up is you only need one more speed than the enemy to double them. The game tells you when units can promote.

# ¿ May 19, 2017 16:04

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

It's a callback to FE Gaiden, where those were basically their default classes and mentioned in every strategy guide. Echoes rebalanced things so that they weren't the automatic best options, but they kept those little nods in. It's a cute touch.

# ¿ May 19, 2017 16:17

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

Terper posted:

(Kliff actually sucks as a mage because he'll have like 1 AS at base)

you suck as a mage

# ¿ May 19, 2017 17:08

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

Tae posted:

Who did you give the +3 speed to?

you can split it up, you know, you don't have to give all 3 speed bosts to one guy. also kliff is a good choice if you didn't make him a merc or cav

# ¿ May 19, 2017 19:28

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

Zore posted:

Wait the fountains are 3 boosts apiece?

you can get three boosts from the fountains total, but it's shared between the two possible boosts.

# ¿ May 19, 2017 19:51

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

just realized that the reason some reviewers called this game grindy or that the villagers took forever to promote into real classes is that they were waiting until 20 to promote.

# ¿ May 19, 2017 20:28

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 19:11

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

Yeah, there's no limit on how many supports you can have, though some support ranks only unlock at certain points in the game. Like Alm and Faye's A support only unlocks in the last chapter, I think.

# ¿ May 19, 2017 21:12

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