Auspol June: It's Time for Sodomy

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Auspol June: It's Time for Sodomy

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Solemn Sloth posted:

They put up a list of requirements for supporting it, got the government to agree, then hosed around taking so long to resolve dumb splits that the government went and negotiated with Pauline Hanson instead.

I'm sure it won't be too long before someone from NSW comes in to fly the flag about how actually we are right and furthermore at the Sydney university young trotskist club I

Too late

Aesculus posted:

Justin Field is that you

# ¿ Jun 22, 2017 03:23

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 16, 2024 03:55

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Frogfingers posted:

So what you're saying is they're both wrong?

The Answer Is Somewhere In The Middle (c)

# ¿ Jun 22, 2017 03:35

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Are we absolutely sure this debate isn't being driven because Pauline Hanson... is a woman?!

I would like to hear from the people on Mia Freedman and Daisy Cousens on the inherit misogyny of auspol.

# ¿ Jun 22, 2017 04:48

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

starkebn posted:

Please, think of the phone users!

Ill help!

Hobo Erotica posted:

^{I was going to spare the thread the full text, but since JBP so lovingly created a cover, here it is:

Modern Public Shame — Mia Freedman, Roxane Gay, and the Collective Response

Last week the internet unleashed its collective wrath upon Mia Freedman. The scorn was a sight to behold. She was described as:

“Literally sickening… Epically disturbing…Disgusting… Disgraceful… Utterly shameful…”

She was called

“Monstrous… Soulless… Absolute scum… Trash… The worst… C*unt”.

People were, in a word,

“Murderous”

Sounds heavy. I guess we should see what it was all about. Here was the introduction for an interview with Roxane Gay on the No Filter podcast:

“A lot of planning has to go into a visit from best selling author, college professor and writer Roxane Gay. Would she fit in the office lift? How many steps will she have to take to get to the interview? Is there a comfortable chair that will accommodate here six-foot-three, ‘super morbidly-obese’ frame? None of this is disclosed in a mean spirit, it’s part of what Roxane writes about in her new book Hunger, and what she talks about with Mia in this interview. It’s about realising that not everyone fits comfortably in to the world as we expect them to.”

There is no mocking or ridicule inherent in those remarks. This is saying “here is something I learned about fat people today which I hadn’t considered, and perhaps you should consider it too.”

I think that part of the problem was that Gay maybe wasn’t aware of the questions that her publicist asked by way of preparation, and was mortified to find out publicly. So her initial tweets carried implicit accusations of dishonesty, which inflamed the response further.

It’s not like Mia revealed a shameful secret. Gay is famously large, and that’s what a lot of the book deals with. And that’s fine.

Here is a telling tweet from Gay herself, on June 15:

“Fat is not an insult. It is a descriptor. And when you interpret it as an insult, you reveal yourself and what you fear most.”

Interpreting this as an insult is doing exactly that. It is implying that there is something wrong with a publicist making prior arrangements. That’s obviously not the way that Freedman saw it, or the intent with which it was offered.

They then went on to an adoring, thoughtful, respectful, 45 minute interview. Mia is a huge fan of Gay’s and that was abundantly clear before, during, and after. They covered the material in the book — being assaulted at age 12, how she talked to her parents about it, writing fiction and non fiction, how we present to the world, how hair relates to how we present to the world, how one can come to enjoy sex again after being gang raped, growing up with and without privilege, what offends big people, what book tours are like. And more. They talked about how people don’t always know the thought that big people have to put into their lives.

Gay said to Ira Glass on This American Life:

“… There’s another level. I mean, then there’s when you’re super morbidly obese, where you can’t really even find stores that can accommodate you. You don’t fit in any public spaces, like movie theaters, public bathrooms, so on and so forth.”

Freedman was expounding on these themes. And that could have been it. It would have slipped into obscurity, remarked upon only by those who actually listen to the podcast. But Courtney Robinson tweeted a screenshot of the podcast description. Gay picked up on it, retweeted it to call it “cruel and humiliating”, made three more posts to the same effect, and it snowballed from there.

And that sucks. No one wants to feel that, or make anyone else feel that. It was a mistake, Gay would have preferred those details weren’t revealed, it hurt her, and Mia said she was “deeply, deeply sorry. Unconditionally sorry.”

Again, you’d think it could be left there. But instead, everyone picks up their pitchforks and leaps to Gay’s defense, making sure to show off how appalled, and how “brutally, heart-achingly sorry” they are. It turns into a complete and utter public shaming, the scale of which should raise some red flags.

It’s easy to imagine that a woman who built her own business to give voice to other women, in a media landscape dominated by male voices, would get spurned by men. But what was surprising was the vicious condemnations from those who claim to be progressive feminists.

It was across most media platforms, with many running multiple articles each, plus another few more each after the apology. All generating huge numbers of furious and deeply hateful comments. I’d hate to think it was as crass as a bunch of independent digital media agencies throwing stones at one another, so what’s really going on?

A pair of articles on Junkee by Matilda Dixon-Smith seem to cover it all off as well as anything.

The first led:

“Mamamia Is Under Fire For A “Cruel And Humiliating” Interview With Roxane Gay”

The headline itself is quite telling. The story here is that Mamamia is “under fire”. You can see that theme carried through the article:

“Mamamia and its founder Mia Freedman are receiving a tonne of blowback today […] Most of the Australian media is criticising the women’s website or just slowly, silently shaking their heads […] yup, you’d better believe that people are maaaaaaaaddddddddddd […] Mamamia has been accused of irresponsible journalistic practices […] The publication and Freedman herself have previously faced a lot of criticism […] She also, more recently, got dragged [… ] Many find it hard to reconcile […]"

Do we notice a trend emerging here? The reporting is about the reaction, rather than the substance. The “A” story is Mia Freedman being criticised. And yes, now I am reacting to the reaction… thank you. (Also the headline is factually false and deliberately misleading. The interview wasn’t “Cruel and Humiliating”, the intro was).

She then wrote another article the day after, linking the same stories.

It opens by saying:

“I am angry at Mia Freedman. We all are.”

Seems like a problematic definition of “all”, but we’ll carry on.

“The history of women — even feminists, especially feminists — betraying each other is long and arduous. Mostly, it’s about white women throwing their sisters under the bus for a shred of male respect, attention, or safety.”

Something tells me that this perhaps a more salient point than we might first think.

“At last year’s US election, 53 percent of white women voted in an openly racist, self-confessed abuser. Closer to home, consider how many white Australian women do not raise their voices, or direct a vote, to help the women locked away in Australian-funded detention on Manus Island and Nauru — where they are raped, tortured and denied basic rights — all for the preservation of our own superiority or blissful ignorance.”

I mean, this sounds like a pretty important point. Is that not worth an article itself? Because here it feels like it’s just in there as a disingenuous effort to make the whole Mamamia thing seem a lot more sinister.

The author seems to write mostly about film and TV and pop culture. Lately she has written 3 articles about Wonder Woman, one about Lindsay Lohan, one about Lorde and Harry Styles, and other assorted bits. She wrote one about Refugees, likening our treatment of them to television shows, in February 2016, and has now written two about how angry she is at Mia Freedman within a week. A woman who as it turns out, has been to see conditions in PNG with UNICEF, and who’s network has published dozens of articles trying to educate the public about refugees. Actually for the record, the article about the PNG experience contains something I’d debate. Freedman says:

“However, I know that a major deterrent is needed to stop people risking their lives and the lives of their children”.

Because I’d go the other way. I say if you want to stop people risking their lives, then instead of using a deterrent, let’s actually go and get them. We’ve got the room. Try just north of Perth. I appreciate that this is a somewhat radical approach to immigration, and I am happy to elaborate another time. But I’m not going to hate someone for having a different opinion than me on this, and it sounds like we could probably talk about it and have a fruitful discussion.

“And so we return to Mia Freedman, a wealthy white woman who has made millions by unashamedly catering to this narrow and exclusive market of women. It’s easy to be seduced by Mamamia’s slogan, which purports to cater to “what women are talking about”, without acknowledging that it is referring to a certain kind of woman.”

Do we expect one publication to literally do it all? How narrow and exclusive is this market? What is this ‘certain kind of woman’, and do they not deserve to have a media platform for them? Isn’t that how these things usually work? Isn’t Junkee aimed at a certain type of person?

We’ve come this far, and we’re really still searching for something Mia’s actually done wrong. Fortunately, we’re about to get there. So let’s jump in:

“It’s no secret that Freedman is a public figure who courts controversy (at times, seemingly on purpose). As a woman who has built an empire on “feminism”, but very often betrays that amorphous cause, Freedman has been accused of myriad sins against the sisterhood. She’s been called out for not paying her freelance writers, most of whom are women (hello, wage gap). She’s been exposed contributing to the systemic victim-blaming of female assault victims — an act made admissible, at least in her eyes, by protestations of playing protector “as a mother”. She is also deeply wh*rephobic — what is often a calling card of the prototypical White Feminist.”

Right, that all sounds pretty horrible. We’d better have a look at what Freedman actually said.

This is her “Victim Blaming”:

“Let me be clear: sexual assault is never the fault of the victim. Neither is being hit by a drunk driver. The sole person to blame for such crimes is the perpetrator. But teaching girls how to reduce their risk of sexual assault is not the same thing as victim blaming. It’s not. And we must stop confusing the two.”

We’d all love to live in a world where these horrible crimes don’t happen, but we don’t. What’s the alternative? Tell kids to get so drunk that they pass out and get raped and it gets filmed, then say “Don’t worry sweetheart, it wasn’t your fault”? That doesn’t feel like much of a consolation.

Of course it’s not their fault. That doesn’t mean that we can’t or shouldn’t tell them to reduce their risk. Are we really that incapable of nuance? That’s concerning. And actually arguably dangerous. Absolutely we need to make men accountable and absolutely Mia does that.

Now let’s look at the pay thing. The Mumbrella article the post linked to explains it pretty clearly: Like a lot of media organisations, they used to accept unpaid voluntary submissions. Now they pay $50, and have a large paid staff contributing most of the content. Not seeing a huge deal here. Maybe it’s bad, but talking about a wage gap? Most media organisations are largely owned and run by men. Radio is dominated by male voices — someone check the numbers but I’d say it’s at least 3:1. The Mamamia Podcast Network has created over a dozen shows, hosted and produced almost entirely by women, with content usually directly related to women, and reaches a global audience with 4 million downloads per year.

The ABC reports:

“For all types of news coverage, internationally and at home only about 24 per cent of the people seen, heard or read about were female,”

But oddly, the line in the Junkee article was the exact opposite of “She’s also been called out for paying hundreds of full time staff over nearly 10 years, most of whom are women (hello, wage gap).”

Next, this is Mia being “deeply wh*rephobic”:

“If you are an adult woman who is not suffering from a mental illness, addiction or sexual, physical or emotional abuse, who has not been trafficked or exploited or co-erced into sexual slavery and who is CHOOSING of her own free will to sell sex? I respect that. I’m cool with that. I recently listened to a fascinating podcast with a sex worker whose clients have disabilities. We’ll be publishing a story about her soon. I’m certainly not interested in demonising sex workers — I’d never do that. But no, that doesn’t mean I see your career choice as something I’d want my daughter to aspire to. Or my sons…. Accepting the free choices made by other women does not mean you have to aspire to them or advocate them.”

Again, we’re hating her for this? I mean I can see where it’s coming from here at least, because yes, there is an implication that there is something wrong with sex work, and our society could arguably do with out that stigma. But far out, if you’ve got to drill that far down to someone saying that she’d rather her kids didn’t aspire to be a sex worker to call her a horrible person, then we’re in trouble. Find me a majority of women who say they want their kids to be sex workers, and I’d question their honesty.

There were two more things that Junkee didn’t mention which we may as well deal with while we’re here.

First was the “blackface” incident, something she was at least 3 steps removed from but still managed to cop heated hatred for. Some fans of The Voice dressed up as the judges — Delta Goodrem, Seal, Ricky Martin, and Joel Madden. The guy dressed as Seal painted his face black. Someone took a photo and tweeted it. Delta Goodrem retweeted it and called it hilarious, and received a swift and massive backlash on twitter, calling her stupid and racist.

Mia saw an angry mob descending on a well intentioned woman, and decided to chime in. Delta has yet to return the favour.

“Blackface IS racist, no question. But to me (admittedly, a white girl so I welcome comments from those with a different perspective, please leave them below), there is a huge difference between painting your face black to mock an entire race and painting yourself black to respectfully dress up as someone who has black skin.

I do think it’s fantastic we’re now having conversations about racism, sexism and homophobia that we never would have had a decade ago. I love that these terms are being used to measure, filter and judge words and actions that once would have passed without comment let alone condemnation. I also understand that different people have different thresholds; something I consider sexist may not push your buttons and vice versa. But this is what I worry about : using words like ‘racist’ to describe the retweeting of this photo diminishes and dilutes the power of that word. I worry that by over-using it, we render it almost meaningless.”

She didn’t do black face, she didn’t photograph black face, she didn’t condone blackface, she didn’t even retweet black face, or call it OK, let alone hilarious. She commented that unleashing hatred on Delta Goodrem by branding her a “stupid disgusting racist”, risks diminishing the sting of the term. And she received a gleeful pile-on we are becoming depressingly familiar with.

To round it out, there was the discussion about rehabilitation of pedophiles on The Project on channel 10. Again, note the headlines: “Mia freedman slammed”, “Mia Freedman criticised”, etc. In a discussion about whether or not pedophiles can be rehabilitated, she said

“We accept that gay people can’t change who they love and who they’re sexually attracted to, so why do we think that people who are sexually attracted to children can be rehabilitated?”

To say that’s comparing gay people to pedophiles, which most articles did, seems like willful misrepresentation. We know that we can’t choose who we’re attracted to. But again she had to explain herself because people don’t seem to be capable of any level of nuance:

“Many people have angrily pointed out that I could have used heterosexuality as a comparison instead of homosexuality. So why didn’t I? I could have — and in hindsight I really, really wish I had. But heterosexuals don’t have any history of people trying to change their sexuality. There is, however, a long and shameful history of religious organisations trying to ‘cure’ homosexuality with ‘therapy’. We have run many stories on this here at Mamamia such as these four:

http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/gay-rights-you-cannot-cure-homosexuality/

http://www.mamamia.com.au/lifestyle/kidnapped-for-christ-stealing-gay-and-lesbian-kids-to-cure-them/

http://www.mamamia.com.au/lifestyle/oh-look-a-christian-group-is-curing-homsexuality/

http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/homosexuality-there%E2%80%99s-an-app-for-that/

The idea that someone could — or should — be ‘cured’ of their sexual orientation is repugnant. So that’s what informed my analogy. Was prime time TV in a 10-second sound bite the right place to make that point? Clearly not. I was trying to raise concerns about our capacity to rehabilitate child sex offenders and I chose a bad example to try and do so.”

As you can see there, Mamamia is in fact extremely progressive on all of these issues

The podcasts are painstakingly inclusive, spending a great deal of time thrashing out what is the best and fairest way of thinking, of acting, of talking, about all sorts of issues: miscarriages, parental leave, work life, television, sex, race, feminism, privilege, women’s sports, whatever. All produced primarily by women, for women.

So that’s it. You have those 5 things: Victim blaming, wh*re phobia, fat shaming, gay hating, and being racist. Yet upon closer inspection, none of them are actually really any of those things.

So why then, do we see these voices gleefully rising up? Why are people so quick and eager to lambast this woman, and why do they get away with it? What’s really going on? Let’s return to the Junkee article:

“I don’t like this kind of woman: the kind who is only concerned with feminism as it relates to her, the kind who laments the condition of women in the Middle East, or of sex workers, without asking those women how they feel about their circumstances.”

It’s not clear how many of those women Dixon-Smith has talked to herself, but what its clear is that Freedman has talked to: Susan Carland, Lindy West, Emma Betts, Peggy Orenstein, Georigie Stone, Nas Campanella, Madison Missina, Sarah Monahan, Cate McGreggor, Magda Szubanski, Rosie Batty, and more.

That’s literally just a handful of the guests on the No Filter podcast. Sex workers, disabled people, big people, small people, muslim people, victims of abuse, etc. The number and range of women who have been featured on the Mamamia network altogether is obviously far higher. Can it be even more inclusive? Maybe. Should they go to the middle east and interview people there? Sure. Go and pitch it. They’d probably love to.

Mamamia as an organisation is explicitly and emphatically for same sex marriage, for humane treatment of asylum seekers, for funding for education and health, indigenous rights, for womens issues, for trans rights, for sex worker positivity, for body positivity, and any other progressive cause you can think of. Are they perfect? Probably not. No one is. Nothing is going to appeal to everyone. But they try pretty drat hard.

The article then takes an interesting direction:

“But I also don’t like the idea that, when a woman makes a mistake, we suddenly jump on her and beat her into submission. […] Allowing other women their honest mistakes and teachable moments is vital to the whole movement advancing and opening up to make space for those diverse women who are often shut out by straight white supremacy. Sometimes calling out is just correcting and moving on.

Yesterday I was unusually vocal on Twitter […] about the Gay/Freedman incident. Not only did I post about it myself, I joined other threads to express my outrage. As I piled on and on, I felt the gleeful bubbles of drama build inside me. I don’t particularly like Freedman, or Mamamia, so part of me was probably thrilled to have a justifiable reason to lay into her (and the organisation itself). But how much of my vitriol was a legitimate response to Freedman’s bad behaviour, and how much was an excuse to be mean about a woman I did not like? That question can be an uncomfortable one. I was made more uncomfortable still when I joined a thread on a women writer’s Facebook group dedicated to the incident, which quickly devolved into some thorough Freedman-bashing. Over the past 24 hours, Junkee has deleted a number of abusive Facebook comments under their stories on the incident. Freedman was repeatedly called names like “c*nt”.

This kind of self reflection is rare in journalism, and it’s refreshing. Unfortunately, it looks like that question was a bit too uncomfortable to actually answer, because sadly the next paragraph lays into her twice more by essentially saying she totally deserved it:

“This is not to say that the complaints against Freedman are not legitimate, or that she does not deserve to be deposed from her self-appointed role as “spokesperson for all Australian women”. But I worry about how easy it is for us to turn a call-out into a pile-on. […] Of course, in the case of Freedman, she has more than proved she is not worthy of clemency”

It looks like the issue is that Freedman is just not liked. It’s hard to know with any certainty why that is. Personally, I think at least part of the reason comes from Mamamia’s history of clickbait-y listicle type journalism. It was annoying fluffy pop, it was new and different, it caught on, filled up a lot of people’s feeds, with some stuff which was important women’s issues, and some stuff which was a bit dumb, neither of which were universally appreciated.

That has defined her character in the public view, and so when she dares to voice her opinion in a way which might not conform letter-for-letter with our collective mantras, people disregard the nuance and relish the chance to pounce, to prove how progressive they are, not like this horrible disgusting mainstream “fake feminist”. And then it reaches a tipping point, where no one wants to risk the collective ire by voicing a different opinion, because then they get tarred with the same brush. And so we have the deafening silence in the face of this universal condemnation, and the standards of quality we set for our arguments drops dramatically.

The reality is that we live in a pay-for-click world, and articles along the lines of “Mia Freedman betrays feminism” get clicks, along with gratifying ‘progressive points’ among all the other people doing the same thing.

But I think it’s a trap and I think we’re worse for it. This dynamic is not healthy. A lot of the conversations that happen on Mamamia are important, and they don’t necessarily happen elsewhere. There aren’t cut and dry answers for a lot of issues, and part of Mamamia’s thing has always been about the conversation, the discussion. Talking about things and trying to understand them better. And that is extremely valuable.

It is emphatically not telling people how to be feminist, and I find the accusation, which I have seen leveled many times over the past week, frankly bizarre, and blindingly ironic.

Language is absolutely important. The world is changing faster than ever before, and we need to be eternally vigilant to ensure that our discourse is inclusive. Our privileges can and do cause hurt often without us even knowing it, and we must be mindful. Mia explicitly invites people to talk about exactly that.

In a world where senators are told to not breastfeed in the chamber, we absolutely need a media network set up to call it out. When the Daily Mail is out there calling stomach rolls confronting, we need to take the fight to them, not just with an article or two, but an entire platform that says day after day, including on June 13, “Bodies are bodies, deal with it.”

So, I guess this is a message for progressives. There are big problems in the world right now. We need to focus our energies. We need to be on our ‘A’ game. At the very least, we need to employ critical thinking. Absolutely we need to call out mistakes, and we need to do it constructively. We’re all learning together, and we need help, not hate.}

Just soak it all in

# ¿ Jun 22, 2017 06:50

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

CrazyTolradi posted:

Imagine writing a Milky Moor long essay on defending Mia Freedman and getting paid nothing for it.

I guess that's how every mamamia.com.au intern feels every day.

# ¿ Jun 22, 2017 06:57

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

JBP posted:

I am going to write an article about fat shaming in DBZ and post it in the thread. If you don't read it you are betraying the core values and esprit de corps of dnd auspol.

Android 19 was replaced with Waifu's case closed

# ¿ Jun 22, 2017 07:29

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Apology to Atkinson Charan

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Apology to Atkinson Charan

Since 13 March 2017, Fairfax Media has published an article on its website regarding the defamation proceedings that Atkinson Prakash Charan has taken against the publisher of The Australian newspaper seeking damages for defamation.

Fairfax Media acknowledges that Mr Charan ceased to be a director of Australian Careers Network Limited on 30 September 2014 and was not involved in the management of the company since that date. To the degree that the subject article was not a fair and accurate report of court proceedings, Fairfax Media apologises to Mr Charan. A donation has been made to the Charan Foundation.

What did The Arse, and fairfax, do?

# ¿ Jun 23, 2017 09:51

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

quote:

'She has breached our faith': Greens tensions boil over in spectacular attack on Lee Rhiannon

Federal Greens MPs have launched an extraordinary attack on their colleague Lee Rhiannon, accusing the senator of betraying them by attempting to derail the party's school funding negotiations with the Turnbull government.

Fairfax Media can reveal all nine of Senator Rhiannon's federal colleagues � including leader Richard Di Natale � have co-signed a letter of complaint against her that has been sent to the powerful Greens national council.

A senior Greens source described the intervention as "seismic" and said it could make the NSW hardliner's position in Parliament untenable.

Another source said: "This is unprecedented. Lee has breached the faith of the party and the party room."

Federal MPs believe Senator Rhiannon white-anted them at a crucial point in the party's history and should be sanctioned, sources said.

The letter reflects fury within the Greens about the party's inability to arrive at a consensus position on the "Gonski 2.0" school funding changes.

Despite securing all their key negotiating demands � including $5 billion in extra funding � the Greens were too paralysed by division to strike a deal with the government.

The Nick Xenophon Team and other crossbench senators instead claimed credit for delivering schools an extra $23.5 billion over the decade.

In the letter, the Greens MPs say they were "astounded" by a leaflet that was recently sent to NSW residents carrying an official authorisation from Senator Rhiannon.

The leaflet said the Turnbull government's schools plan would "rob" money from schools and called for supporters of public education to lobby Greens senators to block the school funding legislation.

It landed in mailboxes in Sydney's inner-west as Senator Di Natale and Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull were on the verge of striking an agreement on school funding.

Senator Rhiannon's colleagues only learnt of the leaflet when a photo of it was posted on Twitter on Wednesday.

"We are extremely disappointed that the education portfolio holder, Party Room and the Australian Greens were not made aware of this leaflet and Senator Rhiannon's support for it," the letter from the nine Greens MPs says.

"We were astounded that Senator Rhiannon was engaged with its production and distribution without informing [the] Party Room at a time when we were under enormous pressure from all sides as we considered our position on the [school funding] bill."

It continues: "This leaflet was in circulation when the Leader and the portfolio holder, authorised by Party Room, were in discussions with the government [about] securing billions of dollars of additional funding for underfunded public schools.

"Clearly, this leaflet had the potential to damage those negotiations."

The letter was signed by: Senator Di Natale, Melbourne MP Adam Bandt, West Australian senators Scott Ludlam and Rachel Siewert, South Australian senator Sarah Hanson-Young, Queensland senator Larissa Waters, Victorian Senator Janet Rice and Tasmanian senators Nick McKim and Peter Whish-Wilson.

The MPs say they will "consider what further action should be taken" against Senator Rhiannon when the Greens party room next meets.

Fairfax Media understands Senator Rhiannon has insisted to colleagues she did nothing wrong. She did not respond to requests for comment on Saturday.

It is the latest display of disunity in the Greens after Senator Rhiannon publicly questioned the party's direction under Senator Di Natale's leadership earlier this year.

A Greens source said education spokeswoman Sarah Hanson-Young, who could not be reached for comment, was "enraged" by Senator Rhiannon's behaviour during the school funding negotiations.

The NSW branch of the Greens is dominated by Senator Rhiannon's "hard left" faction, which takes a more rigidly left-wing approach than anywhere else in the country.

Internal rivals disparagingly refer to the Rhiannon group as "watermelons" � a reference to them supposedly being green on the outside but red (communist) within.

Former Greens leader Bob Brown last year called for Senator Rhiannon to step down and said she was suppressing the party's vote in NSW.

"When it comes to political white-anting, Lee is the Greens' version of Tony Abbott," he said this year.

Well, in all likelihood, that's expulsion.

# ¿ Jun 24, 2017 07:32

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Recoome posted:

NSW greens r poo poo

Now now the twitterverse is aghast at the Greens doing this to dissent*

*recurring theme is that said accounts all identify as communists or anarchists with no party affiliation

# ¿ Jun 24, 2017 09:37

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Oh and some Greens members are attacking and harrassing the woman who alleges she was raped by a Greens volunteer as a fraud trying to bring the Greens into disrepute

https://www.buzzfeed.com/philrichards/this-rape-victim-is-being-harassed-online-by-green-31lj8?utm_term=.xe3b1EK39w#.vqqXA1j6Ey

# ¿ Jun 24, 2017 09:41

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

The flyers that contributed to the complaint

# ¿ Jun 24, 2017 11:14

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Bogan King posted:

https://twitter.com/CaseyBriggs/status/878187876139192320

It's nice to see a modern follower of Diogenes the Cynic

# ¿ Jun 24, 2017 11:29

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Quantum Mechanic posted:

What's that sound? Oh boy, it's the sound of a bunch of internal Greens information you may or may not care about!

Lee Rhiannon didn't decide off her own bat to go rogue and vote and campaign against Gonski 2.0. She was directed to by Greens NSW.

The NSW party (not branch, the Greens are a federation, not a national party with branches) has been campaigning hard on Gonski and on maintaining the funding agreement signed between the Feds and the states. Our position since 2010 has been "nothing less than Gonski" in any negotiation.

Along comes Sarah Hanson-Young who decides she's going to improve her profile and stave off the NXT hounds baying at her door by appearing professional and sitting down with the goddamn Liberals to horsetrade on a funding package which was never going to be better for public schools than Gonski. She did this without a mandate from the membership, against the wishes of the AEU and the Teachers Federation (and the overlap between the Venns of "member of Federation" and "member of Greens NSW" is almost concentric) solely on the advice of a bunch of centrist Canberra think-tanks.

Labor were smelling blood over this and were gearing up for a savage campaign on "the Greens did a deal on public school cuts." Members of the party were going nuts lobbying SHY and RDN, we were directing our National Council delegates to kick up a stink, the Education Working Group was on fire, and going as far as having our state Education spokes lobbying over this. TFed were calling on members and supporters to email SHY and RDN. Still, SHY proceeded with the negotiations and refused to rule out voting for it. She was going to bumblefuck the party into losing half of its vote.

So we went nuclear, and bound Lee (as we have the power to under the Australian Greens constitution) to vote and campaign against Gonski 2.0, crossing the floor if necessary.

Now, the PR are having a cry and trying to pin it on Lee as though it was her decision - although let's be fair, the letter they sent was not actually their complaint, RDN's chief of staff just wanted to have a spray at Lee in national media like she's been doing since she was a NSW MP. Hilariously, though, they've done this at the same time the federal party are begging NSW for more money.

So yeah. I make no apologies as a NSW Green who tried to push the party from the brink of a Democrats moment. gently caress SHY, she's been consistently awful on education policy since she wandered into the Senate.

Also lol at the idea of replacing Lee with Buckingham. Buckingham is a profoundly stupid alcoholic deadshit whose long-term vision for the Greens is "the Nationals but we don't like coal." I mean it's a valid position if you're an accelerationist who wants to see the Greens die a fiery death so that leftists flock back into Labor.

If you think that's the way this was being seen i have a bridge to sell you. If it was the party itself writ large it was dumb as poo poo to do this, and if the decision by the federal shitshow is to cut ties with NSW straight up it would not be surprising nor viewed by anyone except inside the bubble as a bad thing. Lose half tge vote to Labor over Catholic schools? Pull the loving other one. This was hard ball unionism and ideology to be contrarian for contrarians sake.

# ¿ Jun 25, 2017 15:10

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

If what you're saying is true how is it the other 7 were against it too? Your story doesn't add up. It looks like it has Left Renewals fingerprints all over it with a huge ego and grandstanding.

That the lines were drawn and are drawn by Labor since their stance to the election is that that they will refund the Catholic schools... this is such bullshit coming from you.

# ¿ Jun 25, 2017 15:57

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Quantum Mechanic posted:

also I should hasten to point out that it is literally in the constitution that NSW MPs can be bound to vote and campaign against decisions of the Party Room should NSW choose to do so, and anyone involved at a deep Federal level in the Greens who didn't know this is either a profound idiot or confecting outrage

quote:

Greens senators have the right to exercise a conscience vote, but they must inform their colleagues once they have decided to do so.

Senator Rhiannon is accused of breaching party rules by deciding about six weeks ago she would campaign and vote against the legislation, without telling her colleagues.

Now if you're going to argue it wasn't her decision, that you bound her and Lee is a poor puppet being bound by her party because of the NSW rules (written in because the NSW Greens always wanted to be a special snowflake compared to literally oevery other state, this constitution isn't normalised) then maybe she should've said at some point "hey guys the state bound me" but she didn't, nor did you tell the party you had bound her. This was all done behind closed doors and to cause as much silent problems as possible. Stop trying to play the moral idealistic high ground here, you're bullshitting your rear end off because you feel righteousness in your union, but to argue your hands are clean and "everything we did we were allowed to but we did it in such a way to follow the Greens line of not showing outward disunity" is such bollocks and university socialist alternative dogma that its dumb as balls. Not to mention everytime you keep saying "they need us more than we need them" just reinforces good, leave, nothing is stopping you.

# ¿ Jun 26, 2017 03:50

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

open24hours posted:

I don't know what actually happened, but if we assume that the party did bind her then isn't it quite a good thing that she didn't go against their wishes? Preferable to a situation where the elected representative can do whatever they want with no input from the party anyway?

It's fine if they want to argue they bound her, it's not fine that her (nor they) didn't tell anyone else about it. It's also a bit of a weaker argument and politicking as from all indications she was never going to support it, and the binding was a formality.

# ¿ Jun 26, 2017 04:18

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Bogan King posted:

I have the perfect solution to the political problem. Lets make an AI to run everything. If we take people out of the equation then it must be good. It can be the 'techno party'

http://www.scienceparty.org.au/_turing_a_new_charter_city_for_australia

# ¿ Jun 26, 2017 05:24

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Quantum Mechanic posted:

Actually yes, the national rules are specifically different for NSW MPs, who exercise no conscience vote but are bound by their state.

"but she didn't, nor did you tell the party you had bound her"

Except we totally did.

I also didn't argue my hands were clean - I said, if you're going to blame someone, blame GNSW, not Lee.

As much as NSW is considered one all the time, yeh. It was a glib throwaway line but I am sorry to have sullied the good name of AGV. And no, I've heard scuttlebutt about Barber from more than just the Age. It wouldn't actually be the silliest move.

If you're going to argue that you'd best spill. You can't claim that when everything in the public domain says the opposite.

As for blame GNSW not Lee its nonsense, you can't argue shes solely the neutral voice of the people through NSW Greens mechanics but also represents its members.

It's easily to blame both - playing political games of binding formalities to keep her at arms reach of criticism is uni level politics games that anyone can see through.

# ¿ Jun 26, 2017 08:54

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Quantum Mechanic posted:

http://www.tamarasmith.com.au/gonski_2_0 - GNSW position on Gonski, May 3rd.

GNSW binds Lee against, June 21st.

Yeah that is the bullshit, and goes with that the binding was a formality.

quote:

Senator Rhiannon is accused of breaching party rules by deciding about six weeks ago she would campaign and vote against the legislation, without telling her colleagues.

Timeline doesnt line up. Five day ambush vs six weeks when Lee decided.

Stop bullshitting mate, own it and its outcomes. Stop trying to take a bullet.

# ¿ Jun 26, 2017 09:37

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Aesculus posted:

lid i have some quick questions for you, don't worry just answer straight-forwardly

how many legs does a camel have?

could you push a car with a rope?

can you quote the first post i made in this thread?

Four

No

Aesculus posted:

Disband the NSW greens.

# ¿ Jun 26, 2017 09:54

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

I would blow Dane Cook posted:

We demand doctors that are adequate!

# ¿ Jun 26, 2017 10:49

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Quantum Mechanic posted:

fuckin hell m8

read what was quoted mate, the position isnt the GNSW six weeks ago it was LEE six weeks ago. if you're going to continue this bad faith bullshit please just leave in on facebook with the rest, or continue to say "everyone could see it" in a folder draw guarded by a sign labelled beware of the panther

quote:

The Greens party room is considering expelling New South Wales senator Lee Rhiannon because she has already been censured twice for breaking party rules.

The federal party's nine other senators and MPs are furious with Senator Rhiannon for what they argue was deceptive conduct over the Government's school funding legislation.

Senator Rhiannon is accused of breaking the Greens party rules and acting in bad faith by failing to tell her colleagues that she had decided to campaign and vote against the bill, while other senators were still in official negotiations with the Government.

A Greens partyroom meeting via teleconference today did not reach a decision on what, if any, punishment should be imposed, and another meeting is likely to be held this week.

But the ABC understands that the extraordinary step of expulsion from the party room is being considered, because previous censures have not changed Senator Rhiannon's behaviour.

Even if Senator Rhiannon was expelled from the party room she would remain a Greens member.

Senator Rhiannon has denied that she thwarted the Greens negotiations with the Government over school funding.

"It was the Turnbull Government's decision to do a deal with the crossbench senators that killed off negotiations with the Greens," she said in a statement.

"At all times my actions on education have been faithful to the Greens policy and process."

The Greens Left Renewal faction has also expressed its dismay at the treatment of Senator Rhiannon.

"We are disappointed in the party room's eagerness to cruelly and publicly undermine NSW's Greens senator for simply taking the position of her party, and a policy the Greens took to an election, into parliament," it said in a statement.

Lid fucked around with this message at 11:34 on Jun 26, 2017

# ¿ Jun 26, 2017 11:23

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Aesculus posted:

Lee's position is the GNSW position
The GNSW position was made up 6 weeks ago
Therefore you're literally being pissflaps

Except they bound her five days ago, and the argument was "she was bound nothing could be done". Either she'd been arguing she didn't know what was happening for the last six weeks, or she was deliberately lying to the party and not presenting in good faith hence why the nine other federal members told her to go jump. She never told them she was going to consciously oppose, she broke their rules, they're mad at her for acting in bad faith and lying to them. Calling it a pissflaps is a stretch and everyone now saying "oh she was always going to do this" seems to be acting on knowledge they had that the 9 others didn't or that she specifically misrepresented to them.

Edit: not aided by earlier Quantum saying blame us, not her, because we bound her which was five days ago. There is something fishy as hell there, and either we accept Lee has been mislead by the NSW Greens and is going to take the punishment for it, or both were misleading and she's going to take the fall while they argue NO DON'T BLAME LEE IT WAS USSSSSSS.

# ¿ Jun 26, 2017 11:53

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

quote:

Well folks, the Festival of Dangerous Ideas – the 'ideas festival' where middle-class lefty boomers pay to see Andrew Bolt and feel dangerous for a bit – is no more. The Sydney Opera House has axed it, and are replacing it with a progressive “ideas, art and action” festival.

Antidote is quite a different beast to FODI, and it shows immediately. Focused on progressive political and social action, it seems more inclined towards highlighting and showcasing various international activists and performers.

Festival of Dangerous Ideas is Gone Ski

I'm a little disappointed, the FODI was really good for a few years.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2017 03:47

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Abbott is going to live out his life long ambition to be Billy Hughes.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2017 09:33

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Senor Tron posted:

Either he deeply believes anyone would trust him as PM again, or he knows deep down it will never happen but has nothing else to strive for. Either way it's glorious to watch.

He's alongside Billy McMahon for worst PM in history and that's the entire shortlist. To know that every rival PM in his political career, no matter how much they are frauds, gently caress ups, or powerless will be remembered more fondly and better than him must be loving his ego. He's trying to save his wikipedia article section under "Legacy".

# ¿ Jun 27, 2017 09:39

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

gay picnic defence posted:

To be fair that probably isn't the worst idea. If we're going to get new submarines they might as well be able to go years without refueling

(We don't have crews for them)

# ¿ Jun 27, 2017 09:57

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

NTRabbit posted:

As a rule of thumb the size of the Submarine Arm is driven by the number of qualified crew at sea, for every person at sea the Arm should contain another 1.6 – 1.8 people. So the crew size of the chosen SSN is a key determinant. For a fleet of ten of the larger British or American SSNs, an Australian submarine arm of about 3,400 would be required. The smaller French SSN would require half this number.

Australia currently has a submarine arm of about 600—there’s no credible way to grow the additional qualified manpower while overcoming the technical challenges of a transition to nuclear propulsion in time to replace the Collins class.

The Collins class has a finite life and if we embark on an under-resourced transition we stand the risk of having no operational submarine capability in the 2030s and 2040s.

The lower risk starting point is to build up to 9 conventional submarines, which would require about 1,500 in the submarine arm, bulked up with additional marine engineering officers and technicians to provide the manpower base to undertake the transition to SSN.

Modern conventional submarines, with air independent propulsion, carrying similar combat system and weapons can prevail against an SSN—the key factor is training and crew preparation.

The manpower lead-time of 15 years for nuclear propulsion would require us to start now on the process to train/recruit the nuclear expertise and plan for the transition to facilitate a final decision in 2030.

At that point the lead-time injected by the technical and logistic issues would entail a further 15 years before commissioning Australia’s first SSN, about 2046, in lieu of our tenth new conventional.

Just going to quote this forever whenever moar subz comes up. People don't seem to realise submarines are a very technical investment with a sizable qualified crew and that in truth a lot of people dont want to be on sub crews because its so claustrophobic.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2017 12:53

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

*television ads for the Australian Navy replaced with footage from Das Boot*

# ¿ Jun 27, 2017 13:19

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

hooman posted:

I dunno, drowning seems like a mercy compared to the western front.

i'd rather be on the western front than be in the pacific basin

# ¿ Jun 27, 2017 15:45

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Periphery posted:

For those that didn't get the email:

Well when they said "don't blame Lee, blame us" they certainly took it on board.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcxXuzf7VpU

# ¿ Jun 28, 2017 13:02

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

You must be this tall to entryist

# ¿ Jun 28, 2017 13:53

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Recoome posted:

Trotsky did nothing wrong

(Lee was a Stalinist)

# ¿ Jun 28, 2017 13:56

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

drat it Rudd Labor is ripe for random splits get out of China and challenge Shorty

# ¿ Jun 28, 2017 14:12

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Recoome posted:

Wait sorry did Rhiannon disagree or was she bound by the NSW Greens decision. I'm really confused now

They're keeping tight lipped so this is speculation but this is what seems most logical:

At the conference six weeks ago Lee and the NSW brass decided they'd oppose Gonski 2 and would fight tooth and nail against it.

They came up with a plan that if the Greens didn't change then just before the end they'd bind Lee to give her plausible deniability and a reason to unilaterally oppose any negotiations.

At worst they expected a censure or "we'll (NSW Greens membership) be blamed and it'll blow over because they need the money".

The didn't take into account the federal Greens putting their foot down over their games and punishing Lee while at the same time saying they'll lift it if the NSW Greens stop being obstructionist.

Hence all the attempts to say Blame Us Not Lee because they though their plan would protect Lee. This is what happens when Socialist Alternative tries to play uni politic tactics in actual government.

Edit: to explain why Lee is punished so hard for this is that for the five weeks up until the vote, including negotiations, she knew she was to be bound but didn't tell the feds and obstructed that she knew what was going to happen hence all the claims of deceit and bad faith in negotiations

Lid fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Jun 29, 2017

# ¿ Jun 29, 2017 03:01

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

open24hours posted:

I don't see how the party room have a leg to stand on in this. They're asking a senator to deliberately and knowingly vote against the wishes of her party based on some half baked political calculus. Who wants to be a member of a party like that?

Its a question of hats - in the state givernment voting with the interests of constituency in the state makes sense, at the federal level of parties its expected that parties are parties. Look at PUP where every member essentially became independent after getting voted in. When people in states vote for the Greens the argument is they're voting for a national Greens bloc party. NSW is the exception to this in the party membership but its argued that greens voters not in the party would be expecting the Greens senator to be one with the party.

# ¿ Jun 29, 2017 03:14

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Either way its irrelevant as Lee could've told them six weeks ago she was going to vote against any deal on conscience grounds and this would have been avoided. It wasn't the vote that's the issue or why the feds are so pissed, it's the cover up that cost them.

# ¿ Jun 29, 2017 03:19

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

open24hours posted:

PUP split because the party had no unifying cause.

Differences of opinion between state parties are inevitable and the Greens should acknowledge that and work within that framework, rather than trying to consolidate power in the federal party room.

It does exist, all you need to do is notify them you're voting against it on conscience grounds. It's in the framework.

# ¿ Jun 29, 2017 03:25

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Oh hey its the potato

No, the OTHER potato

Former Queensland Premier Campbell Newman is calling on Malcolm Turnbull to resign as prime minister for the good of the Liberal Party.

Mr Newman, who is now a political commentator for Sky News and sits on the boards of various companies, said the base of the party has turned against Mr Turnbull and he needs to put the party first.

# ¿ Jun 29, 2017 03:28

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 16, 2024 03:55

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Korgan posted:

Pell is saying he'll come back to Australia to face the charges. I was honestly expecting him to pull a Skase

"A congenital heart defect has felled Pell moments before he could enter the ring."

# ¿ Jun 29, 2017 03:46

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Auspol June: It's Time for Sodomy

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