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JBP posted:I really like flyers because of the whole RAPID TACTICAL INSERTION angle and I am not a big tank fan. I guess it depends what you expect to be fighting. If you are talking about which one to drop your money on I would get the Raven because it's flexible, flyers are good and it can poo poo out a dreadnought. This sounds like good advice, thanks. I'll probably get a crusader too though. Having a crusader in the list gives me a non-relic heavy support slot, letting me field a deimos predator or my sicaran venator. But looking over my options I think the stormraven is better if I'm not doing that.
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Jun 20, 2017 04:02
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So two possible lists, one version with a Stormraven and one with a Land Raider. The Land Raider has an advantage in that having it gives me a non-relic heavy support, opening up options for taking relic tanks. First one: Vaylund Cal (200) Tac squad with combi-flamer, plasma, grav cannon (182) Rhino with 2 storm bolters (74) Tac squad with combi-flamer, plasma, plasma cannon (175) Scout squad with snipers and camo (90) Terminator squad with assault cannon (243) Predator with TL lascannon, 2 heavy bolters, storm bolter, hunter-killer And then the stormraven with assault cannons, typhoon launcher, and hurricane bolters (307) carrying a chaplain with a plasma pistol (79), and apothecary (55), cataphractii terminators with heavy flamer, chainfists and lightning claws (245) and a multimelta contemptor (167) Vs: Vaylund Cal (200) 2x tac squads with combi-flamers, plasma, plasma cannon (350) Scout squad with snipers (75) Contemptor with assault cannon (165) Terminator squad with assault cannon (243) Relic Sicaran venator with 3x heavy bolters and a hunter-killer (281) And then a land raider crusader (Hunter-killer, storm bolter, multimelta) carrying the same group as the stormraven, minus the heavy flamer on the terminators. The sicaran venator looks fun. Even if I'm not fighting vehicles, the neutron cannon wounds T6 MCs on a 2+, it's fast as poo poo with a good number of wounds, and can fire heavy weapons on the move. Or instead of the sicaran, I could field a plasma destroyer relic predator with lascannon sponsons plus a rhino. Vaylund's not very good but he's cool as hell and so I'm going to use him. He only gets 3 attacks and T6 isn't as good anymore, but a giant cyborged techmarine seems fun. chutche2 fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 04:27
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Have you guys checked out Tarantulas? I can't believe how cheap they are. 10 points a model for a T5 W4 3+ save turret with BS4+ and a selection of heavy weapons. RAW you only have limited targeting with the heavy bolter and lascannon, you could spend 90 points to put two tarantulas with twin assault cannons down on either side of the field and just shut down any infantry coming within 24 inches. They've got a pretty good chance of surviving one hit from heavy weaponry, and will tank a ton of small arms fire. 60 points for a twin lascannon platform, Guard pay 48 for 2 lascannon teams but guard isn't T5 with a 3+ save. They're also the cheapest way to fill out a fast attack slot if trying for a brigade detachment it looks like. 81 points gets you 3 of them with twin heavy bolters to fill your 3 slots. Could be a cheap way to make outrider detachments for extra CP if you wanted, if you were already taking the extra HQs. They can also shoot while in melee, which is pretty great. They're hit automatically, but if they live through it they can unload assault cannon fire or whatever point blank into what charged them. chutche2 fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 04:56
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I don't think normal dreads are particularly worth it. I mean if you've got the models go for it, but contemptors are so much better at CC. They're better at it than ironclads. And for shooting, go with a venerable dread or a mortis. But dreads are rad as gently caress no matter what kind it is, and you'll do pretty well with any of them. Contemptors are just far and away your best bet for CC outside of forgeworld lwith them being way faster, having an invuln, and 2+ to hit at higher strength. Ironclads can do tons of damage and are T8, but their hammer hits on a 4+ and a contemptor will wound T7 vehicles (which is everything lighter than a land raider) on 2+. chutche2 fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 09:13
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DiHK posted:I get it. I've only been following the 40k threads for a month or 2 and at first I wondered why everyone gave you a harder time than the normal goony levels of ridicule. In this case, it's actually more about which list I find cooler. than about table advantage. I'm coming up with how I would use both of them so I can see which way I like it better. I think stormravens are awesome as hell but getting a crusader means I can bust out my relic tanks which look amazing. The two lists are pretty much equivalent as far as which one is better on the table, I'm trying to work out if I want to spend my money to airdrop my contemptor and terminators from a flying land raider, or taking an actual land raider so I can field my 30k tanks in 40k. Because the relic sicaran venator looks loving amazing, it moves 14 inches and can fire on the move. I could be cheap and fit in my 3 mortars for 27 points to open up that heavy support slot but that feels kinda bullshit, I don't like mixing in one guard unit for an advantage. I'm eventually going to get both, but that's a big investment that I'm not going to make for a while since I'm going to eventually pick up a dark imperium box before I do that and don't want to budget like $300 for all 3 of those things. If I was trying to be a munchkin you better loving believe I wouldn't be using Vaylund Cal. 200 points for his rear end is real lovely, he's tough but only has 3 attacks and pays 24 points for servo arms he'll never use. Edit: I don't think I made it clear in my post, but so with the Relic keyword you can't have more Relic than non-Relic units of the same battle role in a given detachment. So to be able to use a relic tank, you have to already have a non-relic heavy support slot. chutche2 fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 14:32
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TheChirurgeon posted:The one thing I'd suggest is that you don't make the mistake of discounting mobility. One of the most common mistakes I see 40k players make when they try to build lists is, because it's difficult to quantify, they completely disregard the role of mobility and assign zero value to the unit's ability to get around the table, reach objectives/combat, and retreat to a safe distance when outmatched. So you end up with people talking about how "crazy" it is that Jump Pack Death Company cost more than Berserkers, when the latter may be more brutal in close combat, but they require you buy a transport to get them there Definitely not discounting mobility, it's why it's still a hard choice for me. The stormraven by itself is objectively better than the crusader because of the mobility. But using the crusader lets me field a 14 inch speed sicaran with 14 wounds that will gently caress up anything. It's specialized for anti-vehicle, but an S12 cannon still wounds MCs on a 2+. Against tyranids it's an easy choice because 14 inches that can't fly doesn't mean a lot when the opponent's army literally stretches from one end of the table to the other, but against CSM or somethng there's going to be room to maneuver. chutche2 fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Jun 20, 2017 |
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Jun 20, 2017 15:17
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TheChirurgeon posted:One of my favorite things about 8th edition is the FLY keyword and how models interact with units that have it. From getting bonuses against jump/jet infantry to allowing them to assault flyers, the changes have been nothing but positive I agree. I wish flakk missiles were still a thing though. But with 25 point missile launchers I guess I don't need them being even more expensive.
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Jun 20, 2017 15:21
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ijyt posted:It was the defining trait of Tau, which are now knock off, sub par Guard. Crisis suits traded JSJ for +1T and +1W that doesn't seem so bad. JSJ was annoying bullshit that made me not want to play against tau. Not annoying in a "this is powerful" way, annoying in a "this is actively unfun to experience" way.
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Jun 20, 2017 15:37
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ijyt posted:You've actually played this game? Nah. Much like yourself, I mainly just shitpost.
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Jun 20, 2017 15:52
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ijyt posted:
Yeah I can sympathize with this, it's been a core component of them forever. But removing bad mechanics makes the game better, tau have been compensated for the loss imo I think the problem is tau have been at the top for a long time and are now in the middle
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Jun 20, 2017 15:59
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Multiple smiting models per turn is brutal yeah. It's rough losing things like terminators and dreadnoughts to it.
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Jun 20, 2017 17:47
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SRM posted:I'm really looking forward to seeing my first perils of the warp that involves a psyker exploding and dragging all the dudes around him into space hell. That happened in my very first game of 8th. My librarian blew up, putting 3 wounds on a trygon prime and killing 2 genestealers and a terminator.
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Jun 20, 2017 17:51
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Zuul the Cat posted:Yeah, me too. Gonna pick up a couple Primaris Librarians once they come out. I wonder if that will be a thing. Psykers are mutants, and I think primaris marines are supposed to decrease mutations.
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Jun 20, 2017 19:59
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Kinda want to run one of my deimos preds as an infernus sometime. 4d6 heavy flamer hits, 2d6 of which do 2 damage for 184 points. I don't know if that's actually good or not but it sounds awesome as hell.
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Jun 20, 2017 21:08
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My first 2 games this edition were determined on turn 2 and over by turn 3. After that I started getting more used to pile ins and consolidation and how melee plays out and my other games went the distance. I haven't actually won yet against a melee-centric army, but I've been losing on objective instead of being tabled now. Also, is it weird that I sometimes let my hamster run around on my painting table with my miniatures chutche2 fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 00:25
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Welll Compared to a chimera, the devilfish is more expensive. It gets to fire the burst cannon at full BS when moving unlike a chimera's guns though, and though shorter ranged it still has a decent amount of firepower, 12 S5 shots with the drones instead of 6 from a chimera. More importantly, the devilfish has 2 more wounds and it can fly. A chimera can get surrounded in melee by a consolidation, preventing it from backing up or disembarking. That'll never happen to a devlifish, it can fall back over enemy models and then shoot them. I'd rather have the devilfish. I think the stuff it brings is worth the extra 30 points, 40 with a pair of seeker missiles. I feel the devilfish works better as a transport and the chimera works better as a cheap gun platform in a faction of cheaper gun platforms. Better comparison is Devilfish v Taurox or Taurox Prime really. chutche2 fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 00:39
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So Kromlech sells tarantulas for 13 euros if anyone's interested. They're so loving good. https://bitsofwar.com/search?controller=search&orderby=position&orderway=desc&search_query=sentry Tarantulas are T5 W4 3+ save, 4+ BS. Take up a fast attack slot, comes in a unit of 1-3. 27 points for twin HB, 45 for twn assault cannon, 37 for multimelta, 60 for twin lascannon or a kinda lovely Heavy d3 krak missile launcher that only does d3 damage and is better at shooting flyers. You just deploy them like a normal model, they can't move and if they're in melee are hit automatically but can shoot while in melee. Some of them have some targeting restrictions, needing to shoot the closest unit. Because FW is bad at writing rules the multimelta and assault cannon ones have no targeting restrictions. Tarantulas have the <CHAPTER> keyword so buffs work on them. I guess your captain yells at the robot really good? chutche2 fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 01:36
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JBP posted:If you want to play small marines play 30k! It's just as fun as 40k and twice as expensive! Oh, just you wait. You think there won't be bigmarines in 30k this time next year?
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Jun 21, 2017 04:08
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Safety Factor posted:There won't be. The Raven Guard Raptors might show up, but biglys are purely a 40k thing. I thought I read something about them loving around with this for 10k years and some of these primaris guys have been in tubes suspended for that time? I'm sure they can retcon it that there was a trial run of primaris marines during the post siege of terra cleanup.
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Jun 21, 2017 04:17
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mango sentinel posted:Bobby G and Cawl put this plan into motion in the 30k era and I think that's when most of them went into their EZ Bake chambers but Cawl wasn't ready for debut until recently IIRC. Honestly, I think that if they can mind wipe space marines to forget about the Grey Knights for like 8-9k years, making people forget about your trial batch of this new tech while the majority remain sealed would be easy.
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Jun 21, 2017 04:35
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MasterSlowPoke posted:That's not the proper size for Ultramarines in late M30. New 30k thread title?
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Jun 21, 2017 04:56
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GreenMarine posted:In the Forge World Index Astartes, it has Spartans as Lords of War (too bad, was hoping for heavy). They are also relics. The relic rule says you cannot have more than one relic in a battle-forged detachment than you have other units of the same battlefield role. Yeah that's the same thing venerable dreads get. Also, that's loving hilarious. Forgeworld has no idea how their own rules work. I guess they expect you to take it in a superheavy detachment with 2 knights or something to make a legal detachment.
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Jun 21, 2017 07:15
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Safety Factor posted:You can take just one Lord of War in a Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment. There's no addition or subtraction to the number of command points you get. Yes. But then you have more relic than non-relic vehicles in the detachment and so it's not a legal detachment. The Relic rule is based on detachments, not on the army.
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Jun 21, 2017 07:23
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I think the bare minimum points would be taking a spartan, guilliman, and a knight gallant in order to legally field the spartan.
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Jun 21, 2017 07:31
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Safety Factor posted:You wouldn't need three Lords of War, just two including the Spartan. 1 is not more than 1. It's still dumb and FW clearly only considered the normal detachments when they wrote that rule. No, the lord of war detachment is 3-5. The only way to field it in a detachment where half or more of them are non-relic is 1 spartan to 2 other lords of war. If you got two superheavy auxilliary detachments, 1 a spartan and 1 something else, it still wouldn't be legal because the spartan is its own detachment that is 100% relic.
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Jun 21, 2017 07:41
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BULBASAUR posted:Oh man, yeah, FW has alarmingly bad editing sometimes. They have some headscratchers when it comes to balance too. Speaking of balance: Fellblade has a demolisher cannon and a gun that's either Heavy 2d6 S8 AP -3 2 damage, or Heavy 2 S14 AP-4 6 damage For exactly 100 points more (717 vs 817) you can get a falchion with a literal twin volcano cannon with 2d6 S16 AP-5 2d6 damage. They've got some real hits and misses with statting out their 30k stuff. Heavy 2 compared to a 2d6 volcano cannon is super disappointing, even if it also gets a demolisher to go with it. The whole xdx system for shots just does not scale up properly. Also, the new void shields are so loving lovely. They're just an invuln save that works against mortal wounds and the save gets worse as you go down the damage degradation chart. They're boring as poo poo. chutche2 fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 09:23
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Yes, a devastator squad is the ideal example because if you can afford them you might want ablative wounds for the squad, because if you lose a bolter marine it's 13 points but if a 5-man squad takes a casualty it's either the sergeant or a 23-41 point devastator. But for tactical marines? You can get 2 5-man squads, and each one has a combi weapon and a special or heavy weapon, and be overall less vulnerable to morale. A 10-man space marine squad rerolling morale is still really resistant, but with 5-man squads you may as well be immune to morale. And you can put both squads in the same rhino. They balance this by making it so if you have more units deployed you go second. I think that's a fine way to do it.
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Jun 21, 2017 16:28
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See, I think I'd like Lts better hanging out with the big guns. Blowing your 3+ lascannon wound roll is brutal. In comparison, with an intercessor squad the Lt is adding maybe 1 extra 1 damage wound against a T4 target. chutche2 fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 18:33
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TKIY posted:So has anyone played against Magnus yet? At 415 points he seems drastically under-costed. I've seen a lot of people complaining about how much Tzeentch got shafted with them using the 3 generic chaos powers, but haven't seen any reports anywhere of actually playing magnus.
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Jun 21, 2017 18:37
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But yeah, it's why i'm debating if I want a techmarine or a primaris Lt when I field my 3 tarantula outrider detachment. Techmarine can repair them and carry his own heavy gun, Lt lets them get those rerolls. When I'm building an actual competitive list, those tarantulas are super undercosted and pair well with buffs.Corrode posted:Pedro re-rolls on lascannons saved my game the other day so I'm definitely in favour of this. Well remember, the Lt rerolls wounds and Pedro rerolls hits. So you can use both.
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Jun 21, 2017 18:40
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Putting my terminators on hold for a bit, I have to start on my AoS starter force for a painted escalation league next month. But once I'm done with them, do you think I should try and get my tac marines and HQs done or try working on a predator or razorback?
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Jun 21, 2017 19:21
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panascope posted:Also man power levels are a lot cooler than points I agree. My friends still want to play with points (and points definitely have some advantages, like sometimes I want to take a heavy bolter devastator squad instead of a lascannon one and shouldn't have to pay the lascannon price) but it's way easier to just put on whatever the gently caress I want for wargear and roll with it. I think it could definitely be expanded on with more +PL options. Like how a techmarine's servo harness adds +1 PL. Having an anti tank devastator squad be at 7 and an anti infantry one be at 6 could work. But it would get messy and I understand why they wouldn't do it, there's just some things (Like bolter or shotgun scouts) which will never see the light of day with PL. chutche2 fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 20:24
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So speaking of nurgle stuff. Once my AoS list is done, how out of place would putrid blightkings be as counts-as nurgle terminators? 
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Jun 21, 2017 20:41
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my kinda ape posted:When would you be hitting on 4+ with a hydra? You hit on a 4+ against flyers if the hydra moves, or shooting a hard to hit flyer. A hydra will shoot jump infantry on a 3+, but against actual planes it'd still hit on 4s. chutche2 fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 21:43
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I built heavy bolter devastators though, and wouldn't use them in PL, they're at a big disadvantage. 7 PL for 4 heavy bolters? But I use them frequently in a points match. On the other hand, something like tac marines where it's a difference of 18 points between the cheapest and most expensive heavy weapon choice for a single one of them, I don't give a poo poo. I'll just give them whatever. Heavy bolter vs grav devastators is a 72 point difference though for 4. chutche2 fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 22:43
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TheChirurgeon posted:
Right, like I said I think PL is good overall. There's just some unfortunate combinations with it that means certain things just aren't going to see play. You're still using a points system, even if it's 100 points instead of 2000 points. And if using a point system some things might be better than others. I don't care if there's a variance between the list that would be a few hundred points. You have the option of doing open play with no points, instead you are choosing to use a point system which is less granular but is still supposed to result in two equivalent power lists. But they seem kinda arbitrary about how they apply it. Add jump packs to a vanguard squad, and the 20 points you spend on that becomes +1 power. Equip that same vanguard squad with bolt pistols and chainswords instead of thunder hammers and stormshields, and that 125 point difference doesn't change anything. In this case, if you break down the point values it's assuming you're spending 12 points per model on upgrades, with the actual maximum being 28 and the minimum being 0. Or with devastators. 7 PL, ignoring what random combi or whatever you probably won't give the sergeant and assuming you take a cherub that's 70 points of heavy weapons between 4 models, with the actual cost being between 40 and 112 points of heavy weapons. chutche2 fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Jun 21, 2017 |
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Jun 21, 2017 22:57
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Safety Factor posted:I have a bunch of heavy bolter devastators and I don't have a single grav weapon in my army. Yeah, like. They could make a tac squad cost 4 points base. Then be like "+1 PL if a squad of 10 takes both a special and heavy weapon, +1 PL if taking a power fist or thunder hammer", poo poo like that. The end result would be that a squad with a special and heavy costs the same 9 PL it does now, or 10 with that plus a power fist, but only 8 if running a 10 man squad with just a plasmagun or whatever.
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Jun 21, 2017 23:20
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I never bought any because my marines are mostly from 3rd/4th edition.
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Zuul the Cat posted:This is too complicated. If you do it this way then you might as well just do points. The current PL system already has things like adding jump packs for +1 PL and adding a servo harness for +1 PL.
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Jun 21, 2017 23:26
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Thinking about it though, I think PL is a better idea of how powerful your stuff actually is, even if it's not completely balanced. Is giving a tactical marine sergeant a powerfist actually worth an additional 1% of your army's total points? It's certainly not as good as giving one to a veteran or a captain, but they cost the same under points. With PL though you're better able to bake that cost into the veteran I feel. I think they both work in their own way for doing different things. It's just unfortunate that PL does leave some builds out in the cold.
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Jun 21, 2017 23:43
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goose willis posted:Is there a reason why vanilla marines can do the combat squads thing while the Chaos marines (who generally have no loving organization to speak of) are somehow unable to split up into five-man squads If they don't have an aspiring champion to corral them, the 5 by themselves will gently caress off and raid some civilians.
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Jun 22, 2017 00:12
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