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I know a lot of people don't like Paul, but if extremely bitter juries are just what we have to expect going forward, no one is going to play the game all that hard once we hit the jury stage.
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Sep 21, 2017 03:15
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Fat Lowtax posted:I wonder if Paul would have beat Christmas. I'm not convinced too many of the Josh-voters actually liked Josh that much, but he had a sincerity to him that must have looked extremely attractive lined up against Paul's friendship robot poo poo. I think they were going to vote against Paul either way.
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Sep 21, 2017 03:17
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Paul would have lost against Megan
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Sep 21, 2017 03:21
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Jury management part of the game etc etc, but brutally backstabbing your allies is Good TV, so they really need to try to un-bitter the jurors to make it not punish the perpetrator.
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Sep 21, 2017 03:23
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I think they need to fire Dr. Will, he's not doing his job very well
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Sep 21, 2017 03:24
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Bloops Crusts posted:I think they need to fire Dr. Will, he's not doing his job very well It's just a part of the format now so whatever, and who knows what was left on the cutting room floor, but I don't think I AM FROM THE SHOW I AM TELLING YOU HOW TO VOTE would ever work on stubborn people like Alex and Cody
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Sep 21, 2017 03:25
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TyrantWD posted:I know a lot of people don't like Paul, but if extremely bitter juries are just what we have to expect going forward, no one is going to play the game all that hard once we hit the jury stage. I think the season was poorly cast. Then production exacerbated that problem by introducing a sole vet into the game and functionally handing him HoH and three weeks of immunity. All of that along with some randomness like Megan quitting, Cameron's immediate eviction, and Ramses' top-to-bottom bizarre eviction created a weird season. Paul still could have prevented things from going sideways and bears responsibility. But it was all bad.
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Sep 21, 2017 03:26
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If Paul had been honest in his goodbye messages or at final Jury I think he may have done better there. Maybe. But dude just had to lie all the way to the end when there was no point any more.
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Sep 21, 2017 03:29
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I think Paul should have won if he had admitted to using his vet status to manipulate people and owned up to the backstabbing. I thought the lying in the goodbye messages, acting like he fought an uphill battle the whole game despite his temptation advantages, and acting like he was super totally friendship despite the betrayals was pathetic. I mean he might still have lost but he really did a piss poor job with jury management and he more than anyone should have known that was important.
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Sep 21, 2017 03:30
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Xmas would have beaten Paul by a bigger margin thinking about it as they all like her and none of them like Josh.
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Sep 21, 2017 03:30
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Paul's fatal mistake was either Mark, Elena, and Cody being surprisingly bitter despite not being backstabbed at all, or the ridiculously awful way he sent Jason out. That could have been where he began to lose not just Jason but Alex, Marlena, Cody, as they started to see Paul as a real pos. Casting is pretty bad too though. I'm currently watching Australian Survivor and  Night and day. Turbl posted:I think Paul should have won if he had admitted to using his vet status to manipulate people and owned up to the backstabbing. I thought the lying in the goodbye messages, acting like he fought an uphill battle the whole game despite his temptation advantages, and acting like he was super totally friendship despite the betrayals was pathetic. I mean he might still have lost but he really did a piss poor job with jury management and he more than anyone should have known that was important.
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Sep 21, 2017 03:31
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Paul hosed himself by needlessly lying in his goodbye messages and again at Final Jury. I'm happy Josh won, but America reminds us again that it would probably vote to nuke itself if given the option. I'm just glad Paul didn't win because his puppet master SEASON DOMINATION bs can be put to bed. He lost, again, because he is not as good at the game as he thinks he is. The only house that needs to be "run" is the jury house.
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Sep 21, 2017 03:32
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I'm not sure if Josh won because he was a more genuine human being than Paul, because winning final HoH tipped the balance in his favor, or if the jury really just hated Paul that much Paul's jury management was definitely terrible though. I can't understand why he would lie at final jury questioning, why continue to deflect and shift blame? Own up to your mistakes, apologize, show a little humanity, don't be such a drat robot. Paul had the better closing speech but tbh Josh might have sealed it just because he was flustered and nervous and came across like a real person, not a puppetmaster.
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Sep 21, 2017 03:39
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Bloops Crusts posted:I'm not sure if Josh won because he was a more genuine human being than Paul, because winning final HoH tipped the balance in his favor, or if the jury really just hated Paul that much Jury clearly gave Paul a chance to own up to his game, and he flat out didn't multiple times. But I would say getting blown up in the goodbyes might have done more damage. Is this a first? Losing because of goodbyes? Would be interesting to see if goodbye messages end up becoming an actual strategic part of the game going forward. Funny it took a fan to weaponize them.
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Sep 21, 2017 03:41
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Bush Did Outer Heaven posted:I think the season was poorly cast. Then production exacerbated that problem by introducing a sole vet into the game and functionally handing him HoH and three weeks of immunity. All of that along with some randomness like Megan quitting, Cameron's immediate eviction, and Ramses' top-to-bottom bizarre eviction created a weird season. Paul still could have prevented things from going sideways and bears responsibility. But it was all bad. Paul got to the end the only way he would have ended up in the final two, and Josh certainly didn't do anything to earn votes from Mark, Elena, or Cody. I think we will definitely see a very different game in future seasons when all of the strategy and scheming takes place in the first few weeks, and as soon as jury begins, everything becomes largely competition based, with every eviction being a unanimous house vote.
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Sep 21, 2017 03:44
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The fact that the Josh votes were a solid trio (Mark/Cody/Elena) and a couple (Jason/Alex) makes me think the votes were set in stone, and all Paul did was fail to sway anyone away from Josh, but I really want to hear the people in that voting group speak out about what happened in there.
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Sep 21, 2017 03:46
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ToastyPotato posted:Jury clearly gave Paul a chance to own up to his game, and he flat out didn't multiple times. But I would say getting blown up in the goodbyes might have done more damage. Is this a first? Losing because of goodbyes? Would be interesting to see if goodbye messages end up becoming an actual strategic part of the game going forward. Funny it took a fan to weaponize them. If I remember correctly, not everyone's goodbye message gets shown, so unless the evicted houseguest chooses which messaged to listen to, I'm not a fan of letting production put their thumb on the scale that blatantly that late in the game.
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Sep 21, 2017 03:50
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TyrantWD posted:If I remember correctly, not everyone's goodbye message gets shown, so unless the evicted houseguest chooses which messaged to listen to, I'm not a fan of letting production put their thumb on the scale that blatantly that late in the game. Well the Raven one, I don't even know where that came from because wasn't that on a DE? So it seems like they made them record some anyway? I was guessing they let them see all the messages backstage and only show what they can on stage. That actually seems more fair than production picking and choosing which to show.
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Sep 21, 2017 03:56
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ToastyPotato posted:Jury clearly gave Paul a chance to own up to his game, and he flat out didn't multiple times. But I would say getting blown up in the goodbyes might have done more damage. Is this a first? Losing because of goodbyes? Would be interesting to see if goodbye messages end up becoming an actual strategic part of the game going forward. Funny it took a fan to weaponize them. The thing is, the good players and winners always weaponized the goodbye messages. Look back at Dan and Derrick and they always used the messages to TLC the people voted out with both apologies, and also using it to highlight their gameplay and why they voted them out. It takes a rare breed for someone who can dunk on the evicted in their messages and still win the game. Hilarious that Cody was pulled last to tank Paul. Paul finished this season with the same problems as last season, he's horrible at managing people and has almost zero self-awareness.
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Sep 21, 2017 03:56
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I guess Josh's seem more weaponized when juxtaposed against Paul's. Dan and Derrick, like you said, seemed more like "hey here's what went down, I'm sorry", which is basically what Josh did now that I think about it, but when put next to Paul's where he lied every time, it seemed more significant.
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Sep 21, 2017 03:59
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Fat Lowtax posted:The fact that the Josh votes were a solid trio (Mark/Cody/Elena) and a couple (Jason/Alex) makes me think the votes were set in stone, and all Paul did was fail to sway anyone away from Josh, but I really want to hear the people in that voting group speak out about what happened in there.
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Sep 21, 2017 04:02
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Fat Lowtax posted:The fact that the Josh votes were a solid trio (Mark/Cody/Elena) and a couple (Jason/Alex) makes me think the votes were set in stone, and all Paul did was fail to sway anyone away from Josh, but I really want to hear the people in that voting group speak out about what happened in there. I don't know if Jason/Alex could have been swayed tonight, but I do think one of them could have if he handled their exits differently. The issue with those two was that they had it in their heads that Paul could not betray them because that would break his "brand" of friendship. Even though that was an idea that Alex completely made up, because Paul never really correct them on that they thought that Paul betraying them was Paul betraying his own brand, especially when he still lied in the goodbye messages. I think they lost a lot of respect for him as a result. You can sort of see that in the roundtable segment where Alex refuses to admit she lied in the game. She got caught up so much in the narrative that her, Paul, and Jason were an honest trio that were physically incapable of lying, that when Paul did it and never really admitted to it, that felt like a much bigger betrayal than it should have. Someone lying to your face is a lot harder to stomach when you spent the entire summer thinking that that was not actually a possibility, and no one bothered to correct you on it until it was too late. Now obviously if Paul had pulled a Dr. Will and was more upfront from the beginning about deception being okay and part of his and everyone's game, even though he may have won the jury vote it would have been a lot harder for him to actually get to the end. But that's ultimately what the jury was getting at: he took a "cheap" path to the end by letting people believe things that would get him far but would leave his scorned allies feeling very hurt and confused and lose respect for him.
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Sep 21, 2017 04:08
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Hopefully production learned a lot from the season. They chose these losers and put in the bad twists.
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Sep 21, 2017 04:21
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This was an absolutely sad season, which featured great competitions, but had a largely useless cast and poorly timed gimmicks. Would really have been interesting to see how this would have played out without a first day boot, without Paul, without the constant multi-week stuck in place production decisions and without Christmas having a broken foot. That's at the minimum, casting someone like Alex who reveled in "I just want to come in second so I can be invited back and win" is absolutely shameful. She never hid that during her interviews. I have to wonder who it is in production who is making so many of those poorly thought out final casting choices when the same casting team largely has so much better luck with BB Canada.
Teek fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Sep 21, 2017 |
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Sep 21, 2017 04:35
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Teek posted:This was an absolutely sad season, which featured great competitions, but had a largely useless cast and poorly timed gimmicks. Would really have been interesting to see how this would have played out without a first day boot, without Paul, without the constant multi-week stuck in place production decisions and without Christmas having a broken foot. That's at the minimum, casting someone like Alex who reveled in "I just want to come in second so I can be invited back and win" is absolutely shameful. She never hid that during her interviews. I have to wonder who it is in production who is making so many of those poorly thought out final casting choices when the same casting team largely has so much better luck with BB Canada. alison grodner.
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Sep 21, 2017 09:06
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I love how the instant Julie reads Mark's vote for Josh, Paul realizes he just lost and starts throwing a tantrum while the other two votes are read.
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Sep 21, 2017 09:32
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In the end, Cody voted the way he did because he wanted to hear "victim noises" from Paul because that's what all betas do and he thrives on it. Besides, he seems to have got the hot chick and $25K + stipend. Paul only gets the second place money with no stipend but he prolly had a kicker sum of extra money to whet his beak to have him return originally in the first place. I'm not sure it's as clear cut until we get after-interviews but I really think Josh's goodbye messages stirred the jury pot to his favor. It got them talking and comparing notes which they failed to do all season within the house. Mark was always against Paul's bully tactic brigades and that was shown on the show the week it occurred. Jason's complete blindside burn along with Raven bouncing into jury afterward exclaiming "Oh yeah, we all knew how that was gonna go!" did not help win Paul any favors from the Alex/Jason camp or Elena/Mark. Once Paul caught wind of the goodbye messages segment, you could see his dominate and confident demeanor shift; He knew he was sunk and was visibly throwing a semi-tantrum on the camera feeds, we just couldn't hear anything falling out of his piehole. He got one upped in a department he never considered nor could have any control over. For me, that's what makes Josh's win super sweet. Paul played a better game of BB out of everyone, but he lacked the foresight to cover every angle. He relied too much solely on in-house dynamics and never really considered anything after the evictions he orchestrated. He certainly never expected a Cuban meatball crybaby to get the jump on him. This should have been a cakewalk for Paul especially against this cast of dummies and he couldn't even do that right. TL;DR: Paul is the Hantz of BB.
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Sep 21, 2017 10:45
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Robnoxious posted:TL;DR: Paul is the Hantz of BB. I think Amanda is the better person to compare to Paul. She played really good games in both China and Micronesia, but Amanda never really admitted to the moves that she made and why she needed to make them. Lots of a apologies. The both juries, but especially Micronesia, had people that were bitter towards her, but we like winners of those seasons so it often gets ignored. The big difference for me is that I think the jury hated Hantz for people an argo rear end in a top hat, while they hated Amanda for not admitting what moves she made, being apologetic, and saying that they were friends. I think Paul is more of the latter.
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Sep 21, 2017 11:42
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Sep 21, 2017 12:10
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Paul lost because he didn't respect his fellow players. Its mind blowing that he was STILL lying after the votes and the DR package. I half expect he'll still be lying today. Paul might just not be capable of admitting the truth and owning the fact that he's a snake. But the jury knew it and there were definitely moments in there where you could see someone like Alex reacting to his lies or Mark reacting to Josh basically just coming clean (clumsily, but sincerely, as said by others). Its not some broken game bullshit or something that will change or ruin the game. Its the same as its always been. You can backstab people. You can lie to people. You can't disrespect or underestimate them or things usually go badly. And Paul might just be too up his own rear end to ever be able to finish the game. That Jury House must have been horrible to live in the way Mark and Maven just blew up at each other. It was appropriate that Jason was the only one who seemed somewhat mature and self aware. And I appreciate Dr. Will just kind of calling them out on some of their nonsense. The lovely person and player winning AFP is an expected miserable ending for the season. It would be cool if Audrey or others dig up his bigoted comments in response.
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Sep 21, 2017 12:36
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You are out of your mind if you actually think Paul deserved to win this season. Its possible to be good at getting to the end, and still play a poo poo game. Not that Josh is an amazing winner or anything, but If you compare this to Dans second season, Josh was definitely a better winner than Ian (though comparable for a lot of reasons). Watching Codys vote be the nail in the coffin made my night and my season.
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Sep 21, 2017 13:31
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There's always going to be people who criticize results like this because there's always going to be people who think the game ends at the BB House door and that its the Jury's responsibility to offer some objective ruling based solely on the facts. If after 19 seasons of Big Brother and 34 seasons of Survivor some fans aren't convinced that "jury management" is part of the game you're just not going to convince them. Josh, Ian, and Nicole are all pretty comparable "bitter jury" winners in that they did some stuff but in the end the most important thing they did is piss off less people than the "puppetmaster" sitting next to them. And, I mean that sort of thing has been happening as far back as Lisa, Jun, and others I'm probably forgetting. "Puppetmasters" don't usually win because they either get taken out before hand or they leave too bloody a trail. Its why Will, Dan, and Derrick's wins were so impressive.
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Sep 21, 2017 13:41
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The only player from this season I see being invited back for all-stars would be Christmas. CBS is going to be thrilled to see the back of this entire cast.
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Sep 21, 2017 13:44
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STAC Goat posted:The lovely person and player winning AFP is an expected miserable ending for the season. It would be cool if Audrey or others dig up his bigoted comments in response. Except Audrey has already commented on Cody, stating: quote:“I’m not going to lose my humanity and attack him or project ignorance back onto him." and requested that her followers attempt to educate and be kind to people like Jason and Cody rather than spew vitriol at them online. You can hate Cody's behavior or views, but him winning AFP isn't surprising and voting for him doesn't constitute an endorsement of his political beliefs or real-world ethos. Holding people to that standard - that liking Cody is akin to sharing any and all of his opinions - is bizarre and simply a mistake. He was an entertaining person to watch on TV; you can blame 'Production' for packaging him well, but ultimately he was the only person to make me laugh (intentionally or not) in this whole mess and that's good enough for me because this is schlocky summertime 'game'show Big Brother and not a social policy referendum.
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Sep 21, 2017 13:51
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From the way they edited this whole season they'd probably love Cody and Jess back unless there's some kind of backlash against him winning AFP (which I don't expect there to be, but Audrey was speaking out against him mid season so there's a chance if she wants to make a thing of it). But I think Cody is probably glad to be done with it. Josh and Alex are also pretty memorable characters and the kind that BB loves. They game and they make asses of themselves for the cameras. That's all BB really wants and they refrained from threatening to hit anyone or say anything racist. Josh being a winner puts him in a slightly different category though. Jason was a hell of a competitor, likable guy, and top 3 finalist in AFP so he'd probably be on a long list. Mark could probably be a contender if it wasn't for his anger issues and that he's basically a liability. Kevin probably did himself in on that towards the end too, even though he should be discounted for being a non-player. This cast probably does as well for "potential returnees" as most recent seasons. The fan opinion is negative but that was mostly about Paul and its from a lot of the addicted people who will watch no matter what and (some who) just like to complain.
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Sep 21, 2017 13:52
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I'm not sure anyone disagrees about the importance of jury management and what were dumb decisions by Paul (again) in that respect. And in the end I think Josh is a more likeable player, so this result won't be keeping me up at night. But as a viewer, the bitter jury stuff frustrates me not so much because it deprives a potentially good or interesting winner but rather because people like Ian, Nicole, and Josh are such unsatisfying winners. I would feel differently if I thought that Josh really did much of anything, but I think I come out of these seasons disappointed where the votes strongly feel "Not X" instead of really in favor of the winner. Paul may have lost because he didn't respect the jurors, and future players probably have to no matter how bitter and annoying they are, but I'm just some dude watching TV, so I certainly don't. I don't watch survivor so I don't know anything about those juries.
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Sep 21, 2017 13:57
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STAC Goat posted:"Puppetmasters" don't usually win because they either get taken out before hand or they leave too bloody a trail. Its why Will, Dan, and Derrick's wins were so impressive. Dan's first game was way less puppetmastery, and ultimately his win was purely from his Jury management, especially helped by the fact that he won some 1 on 1 time with a juror that he otherwise probably wouldn't have gotten a vote from. He didn't play an ugly or mean game at all. Derricks puppet mastery was also not mean spirited and didn't leave people feeling like they were used and made to look like fools. Even with Will, he was such an underdog, for so long, that it was like he started at the bottom and had to really earn his spot (Dan too on this one). Paul basically came into the house in power and stayed that way, so there was no humility in his game or personality. He had none of the redeeming qualities to his game that Dan or Will had, and he did it with scorched earth, unlike Derrick who almost seemed to avoid responsibility for anything with no effort. Its definitely possible to win the puppet master game, but you need some humility and humbleness about you or you just come off looking like a dictator, and not a game player. Sodomeow fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Sep 21, 2017 |
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Sep 21, 2017 13:58
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Yeah, its a tough game to work. Its not impossible and Vanessa and Danielle came close in addition to those winners. But you need the proper jury management and a way to make your victims/puppets feel like they weren't totally used. Paul doesn't have that. Paul doesn't even seem to recognize the need for it. He seemed more interested in telling them it was all their fault for not listening to his advice more. Popero posted:I don't watch survivor so I don't know anything about those juries. I question if he would have based on the fact that he was STILL lying after the votes for some insane reason. But the BB Jury format basically caught him flat footed when he started to realize the Jury wasn't really buying his prepared comments. Of course on the flipside Josh could have said "Did you know Raven and Matt were the targets?" and potentially make things worse. Tellah posted:He was an entertaining person to watch on TV; you can blame 'Production' for packaging him well, but ultimately he was the only person to make me laugh (intentionally or not) in this whole mess and that's good enough for me because this is schlocky summertime 'game'show Big Brother and not a social policy referendum. I'm not attacking you for your vote and if it came off that way I apologize. As I said, its ultimately inconsequential and I'm not going to fight people or get worked about something as silly as this. Personally I can't really stomach rewarding people who behaved badly and treated people badly with a prize like this. That's my thing and its obviously subjective about how I feel about the things he said and did. Everyone is free to judge and react as they wish - you, me, Audrey, whoever. Like I said, I don't really expect her to push it or it to become a thing. The broader attention on this stuff tends to be driven by how the BB fanbase feels and the BB fanbase is very selective about what they're offended about and made the decision to do a 180 on Cody awhile ago. Which is why they made excuses for Cody and ignored Audrey's pleas when she did speak up. But its out there so who knows? STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 14:11 on Sep 21, 2017 |
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Sep 21, 2017 14:09
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I hate juries that are bitter simply out of spite. If someone's being straightforward with you and they just played better than you but you still vote against them, that's the poo poo that pisses me off. The type of jury we saw last night, I'm fine with, because Paul deserved it. He lied constantly. When he didn't need to lie, he still lied. He had every opportunity to be honest or even ego stroke by making them feel like they're so great he had to get rid of them but he went to the grave pretending he did nothing wrong and he got what he deserved for it. All in all, it wasn't my favorite season or anything, but I actually enjoyed quite a bit of it. I see lots of people poo poo on the cast but if you removed Paul, I think it would've been 10x better. They put this dominant person in the house and guaranteed him safety long enough to ingratiate himself and it pretty much ruined what could've been alright.
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Sep 21, 2017 14:42
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Paul aside I'll always say what really hurt this season was that BattleBack/Hex drag where Jody were sitting on the block for like a month straight and just wouldn't go home because of twists. That dragged to a halt what felt like a potentially entertaining season and gave Paul all the time he needed to rope in his parachutes. The season just never really recovered from that because Paul just had his targets lined up from that point on and everyone had their end game in mind with Paul in it.
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Sep 21, 2017 14:49
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