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Thief: Deadly Shadows         So after the implosion of Looking Glass Studios in 2000, many Thief fans believed that they would never embark on another Garrett mission again. Enter Ion Storm, purveyor of great games like Deus Ex and Anachronox, but also purveyor of garbage-tier games like Daikatana and, uh, Deus Ex 2. But Warren Spector saw to it that a third Thief game would be released, with a lot of the LGS staff contributing - with that, we were greeted with Thief: Deadly Shadows in 2004. This time, we find Garrett - trying to mind his business as usual - getting wound up in the intricacies of Keeper polity, and all of the goofy prophecies that come with it. If Thief: The Dark Project was 'the Pagan game' and Thief 2: The Metal Age was 'the Hammerite game' (or at least, a splinter If you haven't played it before, the first thing you might notice (compared to the previous titles) is the new engine. In some ways it does look better, with more detail and less character compression; on the other hand, the development team had to make a lot of compromises to squeeze everything into the potato confines of the first Xbox line of consoles. Colors are muted, levels are cramped, corridors are tight, and every map is broken up by tedious loading screens. This is why the first thing that you should do before attempting T3 is to get the fan-made 'Sneaky Upgrade.' Not only will this make the nearly two-decade-old game play nice with modern hardware, but it will get rid of the loading screens within levels, provide multiple quicksaves, allow for multiple graphics options, and even recreate the kind of cutscenes with narration that we saw in the previous games. This thing is a lifesaver, but this isn't a 'Sneaky Upgrade' review (but for real, get it) - so, back to T3: the developers really did struggle with the Xbox hardware and I feel their pain. Having said that, the levels are really well-designed and you can see the same kind of imagination that was prevalent throughout TDP and TMA. The Museum level very nearly reaches the heights of previous heist maps like Bafford's Manor or the bank. Of course, it goes without saying that the Shalebridge Cradle is legendary for being one of the spookiest maps in video game history; and although the graphics may be antiquated, it still manages to affect a great and sinister feeling of dread up until the very last moment. As well, I feel that the island Mansion of the Widow Moira is very underrated. Not only does it have a lot of different pathways to sneak through at will, but the somber and gloomy atmosphere is pervasive throughout. Another thing that you might notice is that the movement and blackjacking seem kind of clunky, almost wobbly to an extent. This is (probably) because Ion Storm implemented a third-person view for Garrett and, while I don't want to speak for everyone, I think it would've been better if they left it out. It sometimes feels like trying to ride a tricycle with a missing wheel, especially when going up stairs. They've also added a city hub, which can be explored between missions. I'm not crazy about it, but I think it might be interesting for first-time players. There are sidequests throughout the City that can be a source of additional loot and lore. Speaking of which, this has the interesting effect of allowing players to stockpile loot and items, since they can't very well vanish all of your gear when you hit the streets. So in theory you could enter Shalebridge Cradle with dozens of flashbombs and just disappear all the wraiths inside. For me, this isn't so dreadful, but others may disagree - overall, though, it doesn't seem like that much of a detriment to the game. Your arrows also now have some interesting effects - elemental arrows no longer emit light, for one, so it makes sneaking slightly easier. Moss arrows can incapacitate enemies if shot right at them, and water arrows can now clean up blood. There are no rope arrows to speak of, but you can buy a set of wall-climbing gloves to overcome obstacles. A lockpick minigame was also introduced, so now instead of alternating between square and triangle lockpicks, you simply use the controls on a set of concentric rings to find their weak point. Valuables now glitter, which might seem like it's dumbing down the gameplay, but it's also possible that the developers were having mercy on people trying to interact with the muted color palette. I don't want to come off as overly harsh on T:DS though: yes, the "Xbox 1" had some hardware limitations that hindered a lot of the game design, but there are still some great ideas, great story, and most of all, great sneaking to be had. It's currently a whopping 89% off on Steam, so there's no excuse to not go get it. Knock 'em out, taffer!
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Feb 7, 2024 03:54
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they introduced the climbing gloves because they couldnt get the rope physics to work right on the new engine
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Feb 7, 2024 04:25
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Yeah, I think they were pressed for time and had to toss out a bunch of things, including multiplayer. One of the devs said that they were only able to get rope arrows working in Thief 1 by some miracle.
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Feb 7, 2024 04:31
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multiplayer would have been sick, thievery for unreal tournament was mind blowing back in the day
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Feb 7, 2024 06:10
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If I remember correctly, what they had in mind was more akin to medieval spies vs mercs, before Splinter Cell actually did it. This also would've been really awesome, but alas.
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Feb 7, 2024 22:35
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Are there any other stealth games that put big emphasis on set-pieces and creating multiple interesting gameplay scenarios or is that just MGS? Played 1,2,3 two months ago and have been in a post MGS-depression since. I love other stealth games but i need something where things are crazy and changing and you don't know what to expect instead the more traditional "go into this building, get/kill the mcguffin and leave"
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Feb 15, 2024 00:01
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Fighting Elegy posted:Are there any other stealth games that put big emphasis on set-pieces and creating multiple interesting gameplay scenarios or is that just MGS? Played 1,2,3 two months ago and have been in a post MGS-depression since. I love other stealth games but i need something where things are crazy and changing and you don't know what to expect instead the more traditional "go into this building, get/kill the mcguffin and leave" I’d try Splinter Cell probably
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Feb 15, 2024 00:12
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Fighting Elegy posted:Are there any other stealth games that put big emphasis on set-pieces and creating multiple interesting gameplay scenarios or is that just MGS? Played 1,2,3 two months ago and have been in a post MGS-depression since. I love other stealth games but i need something where things are crazy and changing and you don't know what to expect instead the more traditional "go into this building, get/kill the mcguffin and leave" Dishonored maybe
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Feb 15, 2024 00:16
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Sub-Actuality posted:I’d try Splinter Cell probably Yeah this was my first thought
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Feb 15, 2024 00:26
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Splinter Cell (specifically Chaos Theory) and Dishonored in that order, IMO. then... maybe Styx, if those don't quite suit you? It does have a lot of "steal X, kill Y, then leave" but it also has some nice set-piece encounters in the mix, too.
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Feb 15, 2024 00:27
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deus ex human revolution can be very stealth oriented, they even have a foxhound achievement for it
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Feb 15, 2024 00:32
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Oh yeah good call, Deus Ex fits the bill very well too, actually
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Feb 15, 2024 00:35
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I'll give Splinter Cell a try, I've played Dishonored and for some reason it just doesn't work for me. I bought Splinter Cell Blacklist 6 years ago when my partner and I were living abroad stuck with just an old PS3 loaned to us and we did all the co-op stuff multiple times. It's fun and i recommend it to couples and friends. I'd say Deus Ex 1 is a good example of what I'm talking about but it's hard to say because the game has so much freedom and I've only played through it twice since release. What I remember is like MGS though. Using a rocket launcher to open lockers to get extra goodies and then somehow ending up in a sewer with a light saber, meanwhile I'm meeting cool characters with crazy plans and ideas. That game is really the best ever since i feel like it gives me all the scenarios I want without being linear. I can't really remember Human Revolution, but I did love it when it came out. MGS just had this energy where its constantly giving me new poo poo and stuff to wrap my mind around. First screen you have to avoid guards, while waiting for an elevator (more fun than it sounds). 2nd screen we got spotlights, footprints and air vents into the mix, then before you know it you're doing a stupid but sort of fun puzzle where you're taping on walls and blowing them up.
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Feb 15, 2024 00:53
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Play the MSX games if your jonesing IMO. I rate MG2 after MGS3 in 2nd place and MGS1 in first.
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Feb 15, 2024 01:57
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MG2 has a fairly Feelsy moment with Gray Fox which I rarely experience from gaming.
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Feb 15, 2024 01:57
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MG2 is astounding lol. It's insane they made it in like 1992.
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Feb 15, 2024 01:58
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Imagine playing a nearly SNES game with better stealth gaming tenfold than Skyrim or Spiderman or Last've Us or any other next gen game released in the last 15 years besides MGS5.
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Feb 15, 2024 02:01
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Probably everyone tried it already but Invisible Inc is a lot more sick than I thought a turn based stealth game could be, also.Uh, it's roguelike so I guess by definition not set-piecey though... as set-piecey as XCOM, say. XCOM/JA level TacPlay on sorta random maps that introduce new Stealth Concepts in a progression similar to those games introducing aliens and new kinds of doors and whatnot.
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Feb 15, 2024 02:06
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Fighting Elegy posted:I'll give Splinter Cell a try, I've played Dishonored and for some reason it just doesn't work for me. I bought Splinter Cell Blacklist 6 years ago when my partner and I were living abroad stuck with just an old PS3 loaned to us and we did all the co-op stuff multiple times. It's fun and i recommend it to couples and friends. You might want to give Wildfire a try; over the course of the game, you gain access to an increasing amount of elemental powers that help you stealth through each mission - i.e., fire lets you burn foliage, which causes guards to panic etc. You can use your powers in a lot of different creative ways and it keeps things interesting.
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Feb 15, 2024 03:46
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Wormskull posted:MG2 is astounding lol. It's insane they made it in like 1992. it's so fuckin sick, I played it last year and was blown away
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Feb 15, 2024 03:55
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like its just metal gear solid but 5 years or whatever esrlier. unbelievably fuckin cool
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Feb 15, 2024 03:56
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MG2 is incredible the gbc MGS game is also really good
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Feb 15, 2024 04:48
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tmfc posted:the gbc MGS game is also really good this
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Feb 15, 2024 05:29
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I tried that GBC MGS one time while I had a break at work but by the time the first cutscene was over I had to get back to my stuff. I didn't expect that even the Game Boy MGS would start with a 15 minute cutscene.
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Feb 15, 2024 06:58
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Fighting Elegy posted:I tried that GBC MGS one time while I had a break at work but by the time the first cutscene was over I had to get back to my stuff. I didn't expect that even the Game Boy MGS would start with a 15 minute cutscene. hahaha perfect!  Never played the GB MGS game personally, but drat I'm glad it exists
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Feb 15, 2024 07:10
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Wormskull posted:Probably everyone tried it already but Invisible Inc is a lot more sick than I thought a turn based stealth game could be, also.Uh, it's roguelike so I guess by definition not set-piecey though... as set-piecey as XCOM, say. XCOM/JA level TacPlay on sorta random maps that introduce new Stealth Concepts in a progression similar to those games introducing aliens and new kinds of doors and whatnot. Invisible Inc ftw
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Feb 15, 2024 10:10
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Major Isoor posted:hahaha perfect! Ghost Babel is amazing. Definitely play it if you get a chance.
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Feb 15, 2024 14:29
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Wormskull posted:MG2 is astounding lol. It's insane they made it in like 1992. Yup. I need to play it again.
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Feb 15, 2024 15:22
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Thief: The Black Parade         So while the adventures of Looking Glass Studios may be in the rear view mirror, their decision to release the Dark Engine editing tools ensured that Thief gameplay would have numerous progeny over the decades. The finest and most ambitious of these is The Black Parade, an effort put together through years of blood, sweat, and water arrows. This is especially notable because some DromEd sugar leaked in 2012 allowed the team to release some gigantic, stunning maps that would not have been possible in 1998. Not only that, but the project was led by Arkane's Romain Barrilliot and includes one of Thief's original designers, Daniel Thron. There is full voice acting (of admittedly mixed quality) and wonderful cutscenes galore. Thief TBP acts as a prequel to the events of Thief: The Dark Project. You play a character named Hume, a common filcher from the Downwind Guild who, like Garrett, starts the game just looking to make ends meet. However - also like Garrett - Hume will embark on strange adventures, encountering Hammerites, Mages, Keepers and other intriguing weirdos that The City has to offer. Although you encounter Viktoria, Garrett is only referenced directly or indirectly here and there. This is good, since it lets the narrative focus on Hume, allowing the player to slip comfortably into his sneaking shoes. The story itself is full of MacGuffin-chasing, and I wouldn't have it any other way - this is a stock and trade of the Thief titles, after all, and what kind of Thief game would it be if you didn't spend all your time pilfering diabolic artifacts of dubious origin? You get 10 missions that are jam-packed with all kinds of suspenseful sneaking. One nice touch is that many of the maps have a section of The City to traverse before you get to the mission site proper. Guards will leave you alone as long as you don't instigate anything, so you're free to slip into apartments and mansions, purloining anything that isn't nailed down. There are some amusing interactions as well: when you knock out a loud, caterwauling drunk one of the neighbors yells, "Thank you!" The game even takes a few digs at Dishonoured: you can hear the following guard exchange, "Should we gather for ale and cards later?" "Blow off, taffer!"; as well a guard complains that rich people have been throwing food at them from a high up window, which can also be overheard in the Grand Palace level of Dishonoured 2. If you're the kind of person that really missed the "tomb raiding" maps from Thief Gold, then you're in for a treat with Black Parade - the 10 missions are evenly distributed between "heisting rich people" and "tomb raiding with zombies and other mystical creatures." There are some dungeon dives that will absolutely make your jaw drop...in particular I liked the one that starts off as a moody necropolis but eventually morphs into a Zelda level. However, even the zombie levels still have a mansion or two to rob on the way over, so it all evens out. As well, the developers take a stab at a kind of "Mage Towers II"; my guess is that they knew that the Mage Towers level of Thief Gold was rather unpopular, so they whipped up a version that takes place in a giant medieval castle, to much better effect. For me, the highlight was the Keeper sanctum that you infiltrate after tailing a Keeper across the City (the mission doesn't even fail if you don't tail him, it just makes it easier to find their hideout). This place is like 5.3 million times cooler than the one in Thief: Deadly Shadows. The one in Thief 3 is like a bed & breakfast with glyphs. The one in TBP is a huge lair with hidden passages, twisting corridors, and massive arcane libraries. Sneaking up on some of these dudes is challenging, because they can turn invisible and seem to have heightened senses - because as you know, to see a Keeper is not an easy thing, especially one who does not wish to be seen! There's another mission, an opulent mansion with security cameras all over the place - joke's on security though, because the paranoid aristocrat has installed a bunch of Clue-like hidden passages all over the place that allows you to elude them. Much of the map is a challenge to access the hidden passages before being spotted by guards or cameras until you can finally reach the security room buried deep somewhere on the second floor. Finally, the last map is an eldritch nightmare, with eye icons all over the place, to the degree that I was starting to wonder if the antagonist was actually Bill Cypher from Gravity Falls. The things that they manage to do with the Dark Engine are simply mindblowing. And it's not that they added RTX or ray-tracing or anything like that. No, it's that they put in a lot of hard work to build some phenomenally giant, detailed maps with a fantastic design style. Having said that, if you have a tendency to get lost in winding tunnels, then you will struggle with many of the tangled, byzantine hallways and passages of TBP. But they put in enough unique landmarks that you should be able to master the terrain once you develop enough familiarity. The developers have included animals like dogs, horses, and bats, but although I appreciate the effort, these are largely gumby-like abominations. However, this can have a neat effect on gameplay, like the stable of horses that start making a ruckus if you're too noisy. All in all if you, a goon reading The Stealth Thread, enjoy things like quality stealthy gameplay, then you owe it to yourself to pick up The Black Parade for zero dollars. It seldom gets better than this. We'll carry on!
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Feb 21, 2024 03:41
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Thank you, I’ve been hoping for that post since I first heard of TBP in this thread. One question: what’s “DromEd sugar”?
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Feb 21, 2024 03:54
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No problem! I should've done it after my Thief TDP review, but oh well. DromEd is the tool that Looking Glass released that allows anyone to make their own Thief levels. There were some optimization hacks to DromEd leaked a decade ago and I'm just calling them "sugar" because they appear to be some kind of programming magic.
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Feb 21, 2024 04:03
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Seventh Arrow your screenshot choices are on point. I haven't played TBP yet but those screenshots are a great showcase of why the Dark engine holds up so well. Those environments look incredible.
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Feb 21, 2024 09:30
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Thanks, that means a lot! Sometimes it's difficult to narrow the choices down to 9, but I think it's usually a good enough sample to see what the game is like. Having said that, here are some that didn't make the cut:         
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Feb 21, 2024 16:07
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quote:Generate an image of a rogue sneaking into a derelict temple. The rogue should be wearing black clothing with a hood and short cape, and should be equipped with a bow, arrow, and quiver. The temple should have stained glass windows and be in the style of a medieval catholic cathedral. It should be nighttime  Not bad!
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Feb 27, 2024 00:05
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drat, yeah pretty good! Slightly wonky bow and an odd quiver aside, that's actually quite good AI art. Much better than most of what I've seen previously, TBH
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Feb 27, 2024 01:31
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haha yeah, there's always something that tips you off that it's an AI image. ngl if I saw that on the Steam store I would wishlist it right away, even if it turned out to be a medieval dating sim or something.
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Feb 27, 2024 01:54
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Seventh Arrow posted:haha yeah, there's always something that tips you off that it's an AI image. ngl if I saw that on the Steam store I would wishlist it right away, even if it turned out to be a medieval dating sim or something. lmao
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Feb 27, 2024 15:32
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why, if i saw a game with this image i had the robot make, i would buy it day one, even if it were, say, just off the cuff, a medieval dating sim. even if it focused particularly on the thighs of the potential romantic partners, haha. do you think genAI knows what gender swap gas is? no reason i'm asking.
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Feb 27, 2024 15:35
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Seventh Arrow posted:haha yeah, there's always something that tips you off that it's an AI image. ngl if I saw that on the Steam store I would wishlist it right away, even if it turned out to be a medieval dating sim or something. Bicyclops posted:why, if i saw a game with this image i had the robot make, i would buy it day one, even if it were, say, just off the cuff, a medieval dating sim. even if it focused particularly on the thighs of the potential romantic partners, haha. do you think genAI knows what gender swap gas is? no reason i'm asking. lmao
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Feb 27, 2024 15:37
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Bicyclops posted:why, if i saw a game with this image i had the robot make, i would buy it day one, even if it were, say, just off the cuff, a medieval dating sim. even if it focused particularly on the thighs of the potential romantic partners, haha. do you think genAI knows what gender swap gas is? no reason i'm asking.
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Feb 27, 2024 15:53
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