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Aumanor posted:So... What's the Black team's best answer to this? Nc6? Bd7 is the main move these days, trying to force white to exchange bishops and then play some kind of dragon type position. If black plays Nc6, white will often end up exchanging on c6 and trying to play against black's damaged pawn structure, like in a Rossolimo. Against Nd7, white will try to take advantage of the traffic jam on d7, and create some favourable reduction where they take control of the centre before retreating the bishop.
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Sep 17, 2017 17:46
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Only three possible moves, Nc6, Bd7 and Qd7, of which the latter is asking for trouble and the former are discussed above.
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Sep 17, 2017 17:50
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AJ_Impy posted:Only three possible moves, Nc6, Bd7 and Qd7, of which the latter is asking for trouble and the former are discussed above. Nd7 is also valid, but not as good as the others imo
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Sep 17, 2017 17:57
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Hand Knit posted:... dragon type positio ... a Rossolimo ... Or explain it for the benefit of the audience. 
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Sep 17, 2017 18:03
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frankenfreak posted:Slow down with the lingo, please. The dragon is the sort of Sicilian that has a bishop fiachettoed on the kingside. It's usually pretty aggressive but this line, with the exchanges and letting white get in c4, tends to be much slower and more positional. This is kind of the basic tabiya, albeit from a different line so the light-squared bishops are still on the board. One of black's main problems in this kind of position is what to do with their light-squared bishop, which is currently chilling on d7 without an obvious future.  The Rossolimo is a fairly common way of trying to avoid the Sicilian mainlines (Anand and Gelfand played several games in it in their title match in 2012). A fairly common idea is that white will trade on c6 for the purpose of trying to fight for control of d4, and consequently the centre.  
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Sep 17, 2017 19:07
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Interesting. Some on Black thread don't see using the knight as risking a trade.Frionnel posted:Yeah, the alternative is moving the bishop or the queen and risking a trade it seems? I'll go for Nb8-c6 too. Pretty strong bandwagon effect. I wonder if that's unavoidable to a degree? Will anyone champion the bishop move?
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Sep 17, 2017 19:17
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AJ_Impy posted:Interesting. Some on Black thread don't see using the knight as risking a trade. Yeah, as the last game showed there's probably a significant bandwagon effect to this form of correspondence chess, and honestly in the interest of not having a complete repeat of the last fiasco of a game it's probably worth it to try and counteract this a bit. The last black thread ought to have had a lot more discussion and input into ALL the options to avoid some of the most glaring mistakes that I and others made. While it's probably difficult to do this without guiding the players too strongly, can I suggest a mentor chime in and warn against bandwagoning a move without discussing alternatives?
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Sep 17, 2017 20:02
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AJ_Impy posted:Interesting. Some on Black thread don't see using the knight as risking a trade. Is that a bad trade for Black? I figured that keeping two bishops is an advantage.
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Sep 17, 2017 20:24
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Nice piece of fish posted:The last black thread ought to have had a lot more discussion and input into ALL the options to avoid some of the most glaring mistakes that I and others made. While it's probably difficult to do this without guiding the players too strongly, can I suggest a mentor chime in and warn against bandwagoning a move without discussing alternatives? It would be nice if each side designated a "devil's advocate", maybe as a volunteer or in a rotation position, to argue the weaknesses of a move, or at least figure the best response from the opponent. Ideally every player would do this, but having it semi-formalized might help, since otherwise it could seem like a personal attack on the player suggesting the move. In outside this game news, there's a pretty good chess tournament going on right now -- the FIDE World Cup, which will have semifinal matches later this week. The first-and-second place finishers will be contenders for the title of World Champion next year. Notably the current #1 player (Magnus Carlsen) got knocked out early. There was also a more shameful incident earlier on when a player was disqualified (in truth he ending up basically quitting the tournament in disgust) for wearing shorts -- the arbiter said he 'looked like a gypsy'.
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Sep 17, 2017 20:31
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Kangra posted:It would be nice if each side designated a "devil's advocate", maybe as a volunteer or in a rotation position, to argue the weaknesses of a move, or at least figure the best response from the opponent. Ideally every player would do this, but having it semi-formalized might help, since otherwise it could seem like a personal attack on the player suggesting the move. Hm, it's almost like setting roles is a good idea. If only that'd been suggested during the previous game. 
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Sep 17, 2017 20:35
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HardDiskD posted:I am on board with the Knight plan, but before I cast my vote, what about we do Bc8-c7 instead? It doesn't develop the board much, granted, but if they don't want to lose their bishop, they will have to retreat it. Speak of the devil's advocate... 
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Sep 17, 2017 20:42
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I think the bandwagon effect is there but I think it's up to the teams to handle that. Nc6 is perfectly workable move, especially in a beginner game.
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Sep 17, 2017 22:01
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Nidoking posted:Chess AI stuff This is a great post, I'll be posting it in the threads a little later once players are less overwhelmed with learning the basics!  I also suggested to the teams to spend a bit more time discussing alternatives to their favourite moves - while I agree that it's mostly up to the teams to deal with bandwagoning issues, it's probably good learning experience to consider as many lines as possible to get used to the basic opening ideas.
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Sep 17, 2017 22:48
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MMM Whatchya Say posted:I think the bandwagon effect is there but I think it's up to the teams to handle that. Nc6 is perfectly workable move, especially in a beginner game. In the St Louis Blitz and Rapid this year, they played the Moscow opening a few times and Nc6 seems to be the only response out of the sane ones that wasn't used. That could be because 10 moves down the line it's slightly positionally worse in the way that a grand-master doesn't like, or it could be "out of fashion" which is a very real thing in high level chess. Either-way at this level, who cares.
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Sep 18, 2017 00:35
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algebra testes posted:Either-way at this level, who cares. Yeah I mean, from what I can tell there's not much of a point to playing good moves if you don't understand why they're good. I'm not that great at chess though.
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Sep 18, 2017 01:01
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Finally joined Chess by Post as cxp if you could add me to the OP.
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Sep 18, 2017 03:41
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 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bb5+ Nc6
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Sep 18, 2017 17:48
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White completely disregarding d4 because they think the queen could check and take the bishop is interesting, they've missed Nc3 there to block the check and support the bishop but I'm sure they'll figure that out if they think more. d4 is not the most popular response to this board though so it's not like they're massively missing out though.
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Sep 18, 2017 19:45
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AJ_Impy posted:Interesting. Some on Black thread don't see using the knight as risking a trade. Chess thread : 20:17 HardDiskD posted:I am on board with the Knight plan, but before I cast my vote, what about we do Bc8-c7 instead? It doesn't develop the board much, granted, but if they don't want to lose their bishop, they will have to retreat it. Black thread : 21:04 MMM Whatchya Say posted:White completely disregarding d4 because they think the queen could check and take the bishop is interesting, they've missed Nc3 there to block the check and support the bishop but I'm sure they'll figure that out if they think more. d4 is not the most popular response to this board though so it's not like they're massively missing out though. Chess thread : 20:45 M.c.P posted:Hang on, found something with d2-d4. White thread : 21:46 Some interesting timing there. I wonder if it's completely coincidental or if the teams are sneak-reading this thread. Or maybe things just come true when posted itt?
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Sep 18, 2017 21:02
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I mean in theory you have a group of completely new players taking their first shot at analyzing boards in two threads and and in another thread you have more experienced players commenting on that analysis. It makes sense that they're going to take longer to figure out the different ways a situation can play out. Additionally, We're still in opening book territory right now so they still have known moves and lines to work off of, it's hardly revolutionary that d4 is a workable move.
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Sep 18, 2017 21:23
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The biggest issue is that now you've mentioned that, if they are reading the thread, they are now likely to stop using the knowledge to avoid being caught. We should've put some really weird move and marketed it as the best possible move as a sort of sting operation to try actually weeding out that potential behaviour.
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Sep 18, 2017 21:41
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:The biggest issue is that now you've mentioned that, if they are reading the thread, they are now likely to stop using the knowledge to avoid being caught. We should've put some really weird move and marketed it as the best possible move as a sort of sting operation to try actually weeding out that potential behaviour. In the highly unlikely event that the teams really are reading this thread, that would just mess up the game to nobody's enjoyment. I just thought it was funny timing. ... or was it?
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Sep 18, 2017 22:01
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Nice piece of fish posted:In the highly unlikely event that the teams really are reading this thread, that would just mess up the game to nobody's enjoyment. I just thought it was funny timing. It kinda messes up the game if anyone on the teams is in fact reading the thread. Please don't do it folks.
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Sep 18, 2017 22:06
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:It kinda messes up the game if anyone on the teams is in fact reading the thread. Please don't do it folks. How can they know not to cheat if they're not reading this thread in the first place? Gotta think two moves ahead.
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Sep 18, 2017 22:19
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Is there anything I missed about castling in my infoposts? I left out the trick form discussed in this thread, as it'd just be a distraction.
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Sep 18, 2017 22:26
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idhrendur posted:Is there anything I missed about castling in my infoposts? I left out the trick form discussed in this thread, as it'd just be a distraction. You should point out that you can castle if the rook is attacked — Korchnoi famously had to ask the arbiter if that was legal during a game against Karpov.
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Sep 18, 2017 22:34
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Banned King Urgoon posted:You should point out that you can castle if the rook is attacked — Korchnoi famously had to ask the arbiter if that was legal during a game against Karpov. Good call. I had implied it but not made it explicit.
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Sep 18, 2017 22:47
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idhrendur posted:Is there anything I missed about castling in my infoposts? I left out the trick form discussed in this thread, as it'd just be a distraction. The only thing I noticed is that because you used quoted posts from the other thread, if some player were to click on the "Idhrendur posted" text they end up in the opponent's thread! And that's an easy thing to accidentally do. Just edit your posts and remove the post="id" from the quote tag and that should fix it.
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Sep 18, 2017 23:21
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Carbon dioxide posted:The only thing I noticed is that because you used quoted posts from the other thread, if some player were to click on the "Idhrendur posted" text they end up in the opponent's thread! And that's an easy thing to accidentally do. Just edit your posts and remove the post="id" from the quote tag and that should fix it. Thanks for catching that! It's been corrected.
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Sep 18, 2017 23:43
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 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bb5+ Nc6 4.d4 316 games in the database, 48,7% win rate for white.
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Sep 19, 2017 18:48
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Also great post idhrendur!
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Sep 19, 2017 18:49
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My favourite thing about this game is players looking at a few viable moves and deciding that one would be a terrible mistake and if their opponent plays it they should immediately capitalize on the dire blunder. Also can somebody tell Yorkshire that for his videos he can use the analysis board instead of the editor and he make moves forward and backward instead of readjusting everytime Edit, Meanwhile on team black: LupusAter posted:I feel like it would be a little early for them to develop the queen [...] We seem to agree that Qd8-a5+ is the best move for now. Jump King fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Sep 19, 2017 |
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Sep 19, 2017 23:16
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MMM Whatchya Say posted:Edit, Meanwhile on team black: Hmm, normally to such a move this early I'd say "monkey sees a check, monkey makes a check" but if they block with anything but the knight they give up their bishop. I haven't been following things until now, how prone is the mob mentality to panic and miss something like that? Knights are easy to overlook.
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Sep 20, 2017 00:39
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With every move we drift further from theory's light. The Main line continued 4. 0-0 Bd7 5. Re1 if people were wondering. Bruceski posted:Hmm, normally to such a move this early I'd say "monkey sees a check, monkey makes a check" but if they block with anything but the knight they give up their bishop. I haven't been following things until now, how prone is the mob mentality to panic and miss something like that? Knights are easy to overlook. I'm pretty sure that was missed by Yorkshire Tea but someone pointed it out, so white will find it. algebra testes fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Sep 20, 2017 |
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Sep 20, 2017 00:59
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4.d4 cxd4 5.Qxd4!? is also a line, the Chekhover variation (normally reached by 3.d4 cxd4 4.Qxd4 Nc6 5.Bb5). I don't see the appeal of 4...Qa5+; the queen's just misplaced after 5.Nc3 (which White will of course find, since it's the only move to defend the bishop).
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Sep 20, 2017 02:08
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Pushing the d-pawn isn't really a mistake, but in a beginner's game, it'd be nice if there was more of a push for castling. It's pretty hard to argue for long-term strategic benefits in a collab game, though. Also, a suggestion for Covski: You may want to additionally put the actual long-notation move in the posts. I don't know if it's actually causing any problems, but for players learning the game, they may be having a little difficulty understanding just where the last move was made (even with the highlight on the board diagram). Kangra fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Sep 20, 2017 |
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Sep 20, 2017 06:02
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Late to the party but I'm moooo566 in Chess by Post. I'm poo poo at chess and I'd like to get better by losing to goons.
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Sep 20, 2017 18:04
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 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bb5+ Nc6 4.d4 cxd4 317 games in the database, 48,9% win rate for white.
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Sep 20, 2017 19:22
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Deformed Church posted:Late to the party but I'm moooo566 in Chess by Post. Adding you! Kangra posted:Also, a suggestion for Covski: You may want to additionally put the actual long-notation move in the posts. I don't know if it's actually causing any problems, but for players learning the game, they may be having a little difficulty understanding just where the last move was made (even with the highlight on the board diagram). Yeah, I originally did long form notation for the posts until I was informed that the short form allows the info to be easily imported into Lichess, I could absolutely do both though!
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Sep 20, 2017 19:35
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So presumably this ends with both sides exchangin a pawn and a knight, and white with much better development? No, wait, I'm dumb. This seems like a really nice position for white given that the black Knight is pinned and attacked by the black Knight. Assuming nxd4 tarbrush fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Sep 20, 2017 |
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Sep 20, 2017 19:38
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