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Covski posted:
Ah, the "gently caress it, let's start trading" tipping point in an opening. Sometimes it's about who blinks first.
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Sep 20, 2017 20:40
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tarbrush posted:So presumably this ends with both sides exchangin a pawn and a knight, and white with much better development? Ehh black could Qa5+ then take the bishop and then white loses the knight if they do xNc6
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Sep 21, 2017 05:06
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MF_James posted:Ehh black could Qa5+ then take the bishop and then white loses the knight if they do xNc6 Considering that it is white's move then they should be fine.
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Sep 21, 2017 05:15
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Hunt11 posted:Considering that it is white's move then they should be fine. I mean that's how it (could) play out if white takes the pawn right now. *edit* I just realized that the white knight would be able to take the queen soooo nevermind
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Sep 21, 2017 06:45
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The real problem I see with Nxd4 is if black responds with Bd7, at which point if white wants to Nxc6 it goes xc6 Bxc6 Bxc6 and now Black comes out of the bloodbath up a bishop and down a pawn. And if white doesn't go for the trade fest, their alternative is to retreat while their forward pieces get chased off by pawns. But it wouldn't surprise me if there's something major I'm missing here.
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Sep 21, 2017 07:03
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ZiegeDame posted:The real problem I see with Nxd4 is if black responds with Bd7, at which point if white wants to Nxc6 it goes xc6 Bxc6 Bxc6 and now Black comes out of the bloodbath up a bishop and down a pawn. And if white doesn't go for the trade fest, their alternative is to retreat while their forward pieces get chased off by pawns. If White wants to trade there, capturing with the bishop first is better. White could also not start that exchange in the first place.
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Sep 21, 2017 13:22
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Yeah I think white could just take the pawn. Black moves the bishop in. Then white just...leaves the Knight and bishop awkwardly stuck there while white keeps developing.
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Sep 21, 2017 16:06
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Faerie Fortune posted:Can I just say that I haven't been able to comprehend a single post on this entire page? I feel like this thread is being taken over by two or three people who kinda know what they're talking about and leaving the rest of us who know very very little in the dirt. Its overwhelming as heck, remember that this is a newbie game, you guys. Some of us are still trying to get to grips with notation and remembering how the pieces move I was worried about this. Goons get carried away very easily. There's actually a pretty wide gap between "I have played the game a couple of times and understand it but I'm bad at the game" and "I haven't played it or similar games and don't understand it." Going from Nothing to a Foundation is really hard; just look at the pages and pages of text that are the base rules of the game, let alone "Strategy." You can think all you want about how "Actually I'm bad at chess", but if you understand the fundamentals and take a lot of time to review and study, you're probably going to come to similar conclusions as people who are "Decent" at chess. Sometimes, you'll make mistakes, sometimes you'll take longer than other people, but bridging the gap between "Bad' and "Decent" is a lot easier when you have time and effort. The Group setup helps a lot with this, since the discussion will help iron out some kinks, and I think it may truly help players improve. But. That's only if you have the "Fundamentals" down. Chess discussions extremely quickly fall into jargon and notation, for sake of brevity and clarity among other chess'ers. Otherwise, you'll get long-winded posts that are also hard to follow, but instead of because it's jargon-laden, it's just too bloody much. If you already have difficulty grasping the fundamentals, adding the tons of non-jargon info on top of that isn't going to make it easier. However, Re: "being taken over by two or three people who kinda know what they're talking about", I'd have to disagree. Just looking at page 4 of the White thread, out of 13 total players, there's 10 different posters, about 7 of which giving significant contribution (either through a lot of small posts, or a few good Effort posts.) It looks a lot better than the previous game. I can certainly believe some people not posting much because of either being busy, not really caring, or not being able to follow, though. Hell, if anything, I'd argue the biggest flaw of these threads is the posts referring to databases. Because referring to a database and just saying "here's the stats in the database" is absolutely meaningless. Which is what drat near every post about databases have and will be. These posts haven't even been talking about lines in those databases at all, they're just talking about the one single move with their one single piece of statistical data. It's giving the impression of tunnel vision, of not considering other moves but the immediate one. Or, if you are going to focus on one single move, there's usually more possibilities that can be discussed than what is brought up from database posts. But at the very least, they're giving a reasonable Starting Point for discussions. Benach fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Sep 21, 2017 |
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Sep 21, 2017 17:30
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 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bb5+ Nc6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Qxd4 292 games in the database, 50% win rate for white.
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Sep 22, 2017 01:27
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Covski posted:292 games in the database, 50% win rate for white. Huh, I had the feeling Black was playing a little more precisely, but white's win percentage has only been going up. Can one of the Good Chess Players tell me who is doing better?
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Sep 22, 2017 03:24
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MMM Whatchya Say posted:Huh, I had the feeling Black was playing a little more precisely, but white's win percentage has only been going up. Can one of the Good Chess Players tell me who is doing better? This early on it's anyone's game and more a question of who flubs first and whether the other guy pounces on it. Really the opening game tends to be "try not to screw it up too badly and look for trades that give you some small wins", midgame is when you press the advantages you have, and endgame is when you finish it off or try to catch them in an overconfident mistake (some endgame positions are really easy to accidentally stalemate).
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Sep 22, 2017 03:36
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Out of interest, what's the win percentage if white had gone with Nxd4 instead?
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Sep 22, 2017 07:10
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Really preferred the knight move, they're going to spend the next few turns getting their queen chased around
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Sep 22, 2017 08:03
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MMM Whatchya Say posted:Huh, I had the feeling Black was playing a little more precisely, but white's win percentage has only been going up. Can one of the Good Chess Players tell me who is doing better? When you're into sidelines or old lines, win% doesn't much reflect how good or bad an opening is.
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Sep 22, 2017 08:51
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If i'm black, it's the opening, so i'm thinking development. I gravitate towards developing the bishop and breaking the pin with Bd7. e5, e6 also work. Initially there is Nf6 as well, but that invites white playing e5 which I don't like and triggers my spider sense, even if good play could steer you clear of it's complications.
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Sep 22, 2017 09:11
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I would play e5 here. Force white to use the key early moves on the same pieces that are already developed while you can get some more pieces out. Breaking the pin with Bd7 is fine but you don't actually need to break the pin yet in my opinion, and I'd rather force white to defend the queen than let them keep developing other pieces.
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Sep 22, 2017 13:53
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vyelkin posted:I would play e5 here. Force white to use the key early moves on the same pieces that are already developed while you can get some more pieces out. Breaking the pin with Bd7 is fine but you don't actually need to break the pin yet in my opinion, and I'd rather force white to defend the queen than let them keep developing other pieces. Sure, but breaking the pin attacks the Queen.
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Sep 22, 2017 14:04
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tarbrush posted:Sure, but breaking the pin attacks the Queen. That's a good point and something my own newbie chess brain didn't think of!
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Sep 22, 2017 14:17
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IIRC, moving a pawn here is rated better than using the bishop to break the pin. They're obviously both valid moves though.
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Sep 22, 2017 18:52
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a6 will force the trade, and all else being equal, the bishop is slightly better than the knight (especially when it's the first one to go). So that ends up worse materially for White, without any real positional gain. White could play Qa4 to save the bishop, and while that's tactically a neat move, it puts the queen in a pretty awful spot.
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Sep 22, 2017 20:16
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...Bd7 also forces the trade, since White doesn't want to lose a tempo retreating the queen. The compensation is that, compared to the main line Open Sicilian, White is ahead in development: they brought the queen out instead of moving the knight twice.
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Sep 22, 2017 22:30
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A single Tempo shouldn't really be that big of a deal at this level, but in principle yes I agree definitely. algebra testes fucked around with this message at 09:00 on Sep 23, 2017 |
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Sep 23, 2017 01:09
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To spur a little more tactics discussion, here's another, trickier puzzle, from a position in Naegeli vs. Gygli, Zurich 1934 (obtained from another chess book): White to play and win. Here's two small hints: (tiny): In the actual game, Naegeli (White) played QxQ, and the game was eventually drawn. There's a better move. (larger): Directly checkmating Black's king isn't yet possible, but White can forcibly win material.
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Sep 24, 2017 22:16
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Leylite posted:To spur a little more tactics discussion, here's another, trickier puzzle, from a position in Naegeli vs. Gygli, Zurich 1934 (obtained from another chess book): Let's see... I can't see forced mates but I see a lot of piece advantage ones. Rd8 threatening a checkmate so black has to answer either R or Qxe6 (which then has a string of trades that leaves them down pieces and still stuck) or ...h7-h6/5 for an escape. Assuming black moves the pawn, white does Rxe8+ forcing ...Kh7, then Nf8+ (mate if black had done h6 instead of h5) and ...Kh6. Then all I see is Rxe5 ...BxR QxB which means white traded a rook for 2 bishops and a queen. Is that what you were looking at or is there something more elegant? Bruceski fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Sep 24, 2017 |
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Sep 24, 2017 22:33
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 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bb5+ Nc6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Qxd4 Bd7
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Sep 24, 2017 22:51
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Bruceski posted:Let's see... I can't see forced mates but I see a lot of piece advantage ones. What about 1.Rd8 Rb8? e: My first instinct was 1.Qh5, forking the bishops. Black can't take the queen because of the weak back rank, so 1...Rxe6 2.Bxe6 Qxe6 3.Qxh2 is forced, winning the exchange. But it turns out, 1.Rd8! is even better, after 1...Rb8 2.Qd2 Qf6 (attacking the rook) 3.Qd5! Rxd8 4.Nxd8 Qf8 (to stop the mate threat — that's the point of Qd5) 5.Kxh2 wins a whole piece. Banned King Urgoon fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Sep 24, 2017 |
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Sep 24, 2017 22:56
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Bruceski posted:Let's see... I can't see forced mates but I see a lot of piece advantage ones. Hmm, interesting. I just took a look at this and it's stronger than the line suggested by the book (which was 1. Qh5, which through various routes forces a reduction to White with Queen and Rook versus Black with Queen and Bishop). For this line, Black's best reply is apparently 1. ... Rb8, which threatens simplifying exchanges, but White still has a strong advantage based on mate threats, that eventually comes through (e.g. 2. Qd2 h5 3. Qd7 and Black has serious problems) It's definitely more complicated than the other line. So, sure, extra bonus points for finding a strong move.
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Sep 24, 2017 23:03
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Hey thread! Sorry about the lack of updates, the last week has been a perfect storm of being incredibly busy, fighting a pretty terrible cold, topped of with my laptop's supremely non-standard power adapter dying. The game will resume once I get a new one sorted out!
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Oct 1, 2017 20:11
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Here's another chess puzzle to keep everybody busy. Position is taken from a variation in Tarjan vs. Hammie, San Francisco 1976 (through previously-mentioned book Checkmate!). White to play and win. Small hint: Make sure you check all of Black's responses; you need a good plan to make sure Black can't equalize on material.
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Oct 1, 2017 21:32
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Leylite posted:Here's another chess puzzle to keep everybody busy. Position is taken from a variation in Tarjan vs. Hammie, San Francisco 1976 (through previously-mentioned book Checkmate!). Is it 1. Ne6+ K wherever, 2. Qxf7+ KxF7, 3. Nxd8+ Rxd8, 4. Rxh7+?
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Oct 2, 2017 08:32
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Yes, that's a good continuation. Because of the checks involved (Knight checks and a point-blank check, specifically) Black has no time to interpose any pieces. On an only vaguely-related note, I was checking other variations in that game to see if I could find one where "a rook pinning a rook" could come into play, but didn't find one. There's plenty of puzzles where that's actually enforced, but they're simple enough positions that it's fairly obvious that that's what's required since there's so few pieces on the board.
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Oct 2, 2017 17:13
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Aaaand we're back! Sorry about the hiatus, hopefully people still remember this game exists   1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bb5+ Nc6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Qxd4 Bd7 6.Bxc6
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Oct 10, 2017 21:39
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Oh yay, glad we're back!
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Oct 10, 2017 21:57
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I'm excited! Now why on Earth did Team White make that move?
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Oct 11, 2017 00:58
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To keep the queen on d4. If you’re not going to keep the queen there, you just play Nxd4
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Oct 11, 2017 01:17
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Looks like Black isn't even going to debate this one. Though what White does next should be pretty interesting; there are many options.
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Oct 11, 2017 13:52
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 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bb5+ Nc6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Qxd4 Bd7 6.Bxc6 Bxc6
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Oct 11, 2017 22:42
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There's really three choices for white here - 0-0, Nc3, and c4. 0-0 was my first look choice - Black has no threats on the board right now, so why not get your king safe? Nc3 and c4 do the same thing, locking down d5. Playing c4 may make that pawn a target in the future, though.
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Oct 12, 2017 04:34
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I am happy that chess is back 
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Oct 13, 2017 04:11
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| # ? May 9, 2024 02:38 |
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 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bb5+ Nc6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Qxd4 Bd7 6.Bxc6 Bxc6 7.Nc3 825 games in the database, 52,4% win rate for white.
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Oct 13, 2017 13:44
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