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I have been convinced of the merits of d4
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Jul 13, 2017 01:00
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| # ? May 9, 2024 23:36 |
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d4 is sensible.
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Jul 13, 2017 01:55
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Also voting for d4.
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Jul 13, 2017 02:01
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Yes, I am sold on d4 as well. We'll need to go off-book eventually, though.
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Jul 13, 2017 04:03
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oath2order posted:Yes, I am sold on d4 as well. We'll need to go off-book eventually, though. Opening is probably where things are gonna be on-book the most. Chess has been researched so much that what can happen in the opening of the game has been documented a lot. We'd still be on-book, just using a different kind of book if we used some other moves. Once it reaches the later stages of the game, there would probably significantly less documented moves to choose from.
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Jul 13, 2017 04:11
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Dr. Fetus posted:Opening is probably where things are gonna be on-book the most. Chess has been researched so much that what can happen in the opening of the game has been documented a lot. We'd still be on-book, just using a different kind of book if we used some other moves. Once it reaches the later stages of the game, there would probably significantly less documented moves to choose from. Yepperoonie. Plus for as long as we're on book, we're definitely winning with these lines. And if we let Black make the first off-book move, it can only be to our advantage. The books are books for a reason.
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Jul 13, 2017 04:16
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Also, I believe that is 10 votes for d4.
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Jul 13, 2017 04:17
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Going d4 as well, let's do this.
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Jul 13, 2017 06:43
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d4 is the way I wanted to go and jon joe is doing all the  posting meaning he's agreeing with me.Putting our faith in board states, position and probability will see us amateurs through this chaos. Or at least let us learn better play than just voting for random BS like those evil Blackians will end up doing.
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Jul 13, 2017 08:45
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Hey, observer thread, I hope you're taking notes and making summaries for our later amusement. If this doesn't end up reading as The Gossage-Vardebedian Papers, I'll be sorely disappointed.
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Jul 13, 2017 09:12
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 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Black has 24 hours decide on a move.
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Jul 13, 2017 10:53
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Fat Samurai posted:Hey, observer thread, I hope you're taking notes and making summaries for our later amusement. If this doesn't end up reading as The Gossage-Vardebedian Papers, I'll be sorely disappointed. I'm not really sure how or why they have a queen on their side of the board; we discussed removing that weeks ago!
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Jul 13, 2017 15:57
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So assuming that the knight takes the bait on the pawn, can our new pawn take down the knight immediately?
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Jul 13, 2017 16:57
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bman in 2288 posted:So assuming that the knight takes the bait on the pawn, can our new pawn take down the knight immediately? If they move knight xd5, we move c4 immediately, threatening the knight. The knight has several spaces where it can move, but the best is b6. At which point you may be tempted to move pawn to c5 to attack it again, but this is actually a trap; no longer attacking the d5 square means the knight can return there, meaning we lost the tempo we gained. "Ah," I hear you say, "but their knight was forced to move again. Isn't that good?" And the answer to which is no, because tempo only matters as far as board state matters. Every piece wants to be somewhere where it can do something, threatening important squares or pieces that restrict enemy movements. Moving our pawn up to c5 does nothing for us, and is even a worse pawn structure than you can imagine since it allows them tricks for getting out and wrecking with their rook sooner. So instead their knight will just hang out and be mostly neutralized at b6. The videos I watched had some recommendations at what we should do at this point, but I don't remember off the top of my head and will refresh myself if and when we get to that position.
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Jul 13, 2017 17:03
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 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 You have 24 hours to decide on a move.
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Jul 13, 2017 18:34
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So... f3, right? Or possibly Kf3 but better to actually threaten the bishop, I feel. e: altering my vote in the face of Jon joe's wisdom. I like the swashbuckling idea of launching our own bishop to b5 too but let's go maximum horseplay. Voting Kf3 sebzilla fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Jul 13, 2017 |
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Jul 13, 2017 18:38
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Oh look, that move I was just discussing. The correct counter is Be2 right?
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Jul 13, 2017 18:45
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Mad disrespect, I see. Bb5+
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Jul 13, 2017 18:50
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This is the Portuguese gambit I was talking about earlier in this post:jon joe posted:Primarily I'm hoping that after we d4, our opponents attempts the Portuguese gambit which involves them moving their bishop to g4. Now you may think our natural development their would be our pawn to block the attack on our queen while attacking the bishop, but this is a mistake much in the same way a pawn play is a mistake by our opponent if we were to play our own bishop deep into enemy lines. After our opponent backs off to f5 we're looking at a board where we need to commit to defending our pawn at d5 by playing c4, which leads to a game where we are primarily developing pawns and our opponent is styling with a bunch of cool knights and bishops. It's not the worst thing to happen, but is very annoying and makes for an extremely unbalanced board that can be difficult to analyze. The correct response is Kf3, as I already laid out. Moving our pawn is not a great move. Moving our bishops to either Be2 or Bb5+ are fine, but not as good of a response as Knight to f3.
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Jul 13, 2017 19:05
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sebzilla posted:So... My sentiments exactly. But you mention developing our pawns. You mean use them to bring back a powerful piece? bman in 2288 fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Jul 13, 2017 |
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Jul 13, 2017 19:06
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bman in 2288 posted:My sentiments exactly. Threatening the bishop with our pawn forces a board development in which we have a bunch of pawns out with not much else; it's not a great position to be in.
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Jul 13, 2017 19:07
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Here's what moving our knight does for us specifically: It develops the knight we want developed anyway, essentially invalidates our opponent's play (if they capture, that ends up good for us as it allows a free development by capturing with our queen, plus as I mentioned earlier bishops are more valuable than knights), and allows us to later kick the bishop off with pawn to h3, a great move that develops naturally into a king-side castle (although we will probably also move our bishop before this).
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Jul 13, 2017 19:12
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This video up until just slightly past the 2 minute mark outlines the optimal play for both white and black. The white play messes up with C3 instead of C4, missing an opportunity to attack the queen.
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Jul 13, 2017 19:15
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Ok, how can I post board positions without taking screenshots and then editing them? I think I'm onto something bad but funny.
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Jul 13, 2017 19:25
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Fat Samurai posted:Ok, how can I post board positions without taking screenshots and then editing them? I think I'm onto something bad but funny. Earlier I used this https://www.liavaag.org/English/Film/Pong/Chess/ Just uncheck CPU for Black and you can play both sides
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Jul 13, 2017 19:27
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Fat Samurai posted:Ok, how can I post board positions without taking screenshots and then editing them? I think I'm onto something bad but funny. https://lichess.org/editor is a good choice.
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Jul 13, 2017 19:29
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Ok, while the best answer is probably something about the lines of moving something to e2 or pawn to f3 (probably this), the sheer balls of checking while our Queen is in jeopardy has made me to run a couple of scenarios, and... it doesn't seem such a bad move? Here is the board after 3.Bb5+:  Spoilered in case you want to think it out. Now, Black MUST put something between our Bishop and the King. That can be one of the following pieces: - Either Knight, probably the b column one, but if they move their developed one, it's a bonus: Fine. We go deal with the Black Bishop with whatever. Our Bishop is not in immediate danger, and whatever they do to threaten it we can do to theirs. It's a trade that loses us nothing. - The Bishop: loving wonderful. The threat to our Queen is gone, and we can trade. They take it back with either the Knight or the Queen. We have gained tempo, because they have used a turn to move a Knight or their Queen to d7, which is a pretty awful move, and the Bishops cancel each other out. We also have more open lines and they are killing their only open Bishop, and can move c4 to further control the center. - The c pawn: Now this is where things get interesting: we take their c6 pawn with our own. After that, here's the board:  At this point, the temptation is going to be strong to take our Queen. Which means we check their Queen and their King by advancing our pawn.  Again, something must move to d7: If it's one of the Knights, we take the Queen with our Pawn, promote it, get it killed and take their Bishop with our King. End result: we trade a Pawn for a Bishop. If they move their Queen to d7 it's checkmate when we promote (it's not going to happen). If they block our Bishop with their pawn, their only saving move is to check us with their Queen right after we take their Pawn with our own (diagram above). After we move our Knight to block the check, the board ends like this, our move:  Black must take our Pawn with their Knight, otherwise we take b2 with it (check) and they are forced to trade their Queen for our Bishop. We're still one Pawn ahead, the Queen is in a very inconvenient place and we can deal with the Bishop at our leisure. Again, it's probably not the best move because it assumes that Black will choose c6 before Kc6, but it's going to be a lot of fun if it works, and the alternatives aren't horrible either.
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Jul 13, 2017 19:53
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Covski posted:https://lichess.org/editor is a good choice. Is there a way to copy the image as a link? I was taking screenshots and then cropping them, which is a pain. Otherwise I'll go with jon joe's
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Jul 13, 2017 19:57
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Actually, I am warming to Bb5+ for two reasons: 1. Even if our opponent plays 100% correctly (knight to d7 to protect the king, we can then develop pawn to f3 without much fuss, as now we're not longer just having pawns out, our bishop is partying. Blacks corresponding pawn tempo moves on our bishop are actually winning. 2. Goons gotta go aggressive Now, there is another line which involves f3 into g4 here (game 5, Alonso Gonzalez, Carlos2515–Destruels Moreno, Francisco Ramon2307), but I can't tell off the top of my head if black was making optimal plays or not. Basically play progresses such that we end up sacrificing our queen for an amazing board development advantage, resulting in a strange black. I dunno, I could go for either. I don't really think I want to play Knight to f3 anymore.
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Jul 13, 2017 20:04
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I retract my previous vote, now debating between Bb5+ to throw our opponent's offguard and have a solid game, or f3 for sheer hilarity.
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Jul 13, 2017 20:05
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Be2 change to Nf3 Let's not be deliberately stupid
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Jul 13, 2017 20:07
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Added Space posted:Be2 change to Nf3 A warning that this fucks up our castle position if they decide to take the Knight, leaving the King with nothing in front of it. It is a better place for the Knight if they don't, though.
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Jul 13, 2017 20:10
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Fat Samurai posted:A warning that this fucks up our castle position if they decide to take the Knight, leaving the King with nothing in front of it. No, we just take the bishop with our queen.
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Jul 13, 2017 20:11
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Added Space posted:No, we just take the bishop with our queen.  I'm dumb.
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Jul 13, 2017 20:13
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Fat Samurai posted:Is there a way to copy the image as a link? I was taking screenshots and then cropping them, which is a pain. Otherwise I'll go with jon joe's Not as far as I know, no.
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Jul 13, 2017 20:14
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Added Space posted:No, we just take the bishop with our queen. Yeah, that. Added Space posted:Be2 change to Nf3 Neither Bb5+ nor f3 are deliberately stupid. In fact, I think I may have been wrong I pushed Kf3 as the best line. The Portuguese gambit has gotten a lot of attention online relative to some moves, but not enough such that I can say anything with certaintly. Kf3 is just what original sources I encountered said, but now other ones are suggesting that is not the best. The end result of Bb5+ is a solid board position; we don't even get tempo'd by a lot due to Black needing to push their pawns far out of a good position to do so while we end up with a bishop in a solid one, and that's if they play it perfectly. Further, it takes away the weakness of the eventual f3 move by making sure we have an established bishop without really giving extra due to their knight. Plus they might always gently caress up! f3 into g4 lead to a hilarious game that I linked where Black severely got their poo poo pushed in by primarily a bunch of pawns. Like I said before it ends up in a position where we get our Queen captured, but 1. That's not for many turns and 2. If the game boils down that far to-the-book, I'm pretty sure we have it in the bag.
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Jul 13, 2017 20:18
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If we go Bb5+ they're only going to be in check for 1-2 turns, and the second they're out of check their bishop takes our queen.
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Jul 13, 2017 20:23
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Added Space posted:If we go Bb5+ they're only going to be in check for 1-2 turns, and the second they're out of check their bishop takes our queen. Bb5+, they block with their knight, we block with our pawn to f3. That's the main line for both teams.
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Jul 13, 2017 20:24
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Here's how it ends up for both teams, play perfectly, with us to move.
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Jul 13, 2017 20:26
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| # ? May 9, 2024 23:36 |
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But please note that they haven't been playing perfectly as of the second move. Should we plan for cookie-cutter moves, or should we plan for more aggressiveness from them?
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Jul 13, 2017 20:30
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