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Nice piece of fish posted:Now, let's say white goes and takes our knight with the queen. I think Bc5 then becomes our strongest play. It blocks the movement for the queen, meaning either they take with their bishop, blocking themselves in, or they take it with the queen. Either way, we delay the check. We then stack towers. If they don't check us or pin a threat on the king, which they really can't without sacrificing their queen, we win. I can definitely agree with this. If we move Bd6, they can just move the queen past us and check our king, completely ignoring the bishop. Putting the Bishop in the way stalls them a turn or two, and then we can get our rooks in position. Bc5 Edit: well, not check per se, since our pawn is there, but can definitely get into a better position on us if they move to the right side of the board.
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Aug 17, 2017 20:57
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Dr. Snark posted:I think we already decided on Bd6. Glaive17 posted:I can definitely agree with this. If we move Bd6, they can just move the queen past us and check our king, completely ignoring the bishop. Putting the Bishop in the way stalls them a turn or two, and then we can get our rooks in position. Bc5 Bd6 gets us very little and blocks our only path of agression. I suggest c5. It blocks the bishop from protecting the knight, which means that either they spend the next turn re-protecting it or we can take it with our king. They can take c5 with their queen, but then they lose the queen. They can take it with the bishop, but then they lose the bishop. Queen might come and take c5 after that, but that doesn't put us in check and we can then stack towers. Then white is a single move away from loss. In fact, they may have to choose between checking us and losing the knight. We lose a pawn and trade a bishop, but we delay white from checking. I think that's the best we can do for the next few moves. If we move bishop up to block, we will definitely get a pin on it as white moves their rook into play. We won't get a chance to attack down d if that becomes the case.
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Aug 17, 2017 21:32
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From what I understand, the idea behind Bc5 is to set up Rd8, followed by Rd1, then when they take our rook, Rd1 again for checkmate. They can take pieces in the meanwhile, but they can't checkmate us without taking our rooks first*, and the can really only block that set of moves except by forcing us to trade a rook for their queen (a trade I'd be perfectly willing to make). Of course, if we move Bd6, we block that series of moves ourselves. * I'm asserting this based on a cursory analysis that may be wrong, but from what I see, any of the critical positions they could get their queen into would allow us to capture the queen for the loss of a rook. Edit: He's written something as I was writing. Time to read it and think, so kindly disregard what I've written here for the moment.
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Aug 17, 2017 21:33
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Okay, took a few moments to read and think. I think c5 is a better move that Bd6, but I'm inclined to think Bc5 is better still. (Possibly) sacrifice the bishop for a chance at victory or to set up a queen/rook exchange. But I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.
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Aug 17, 2017 21:37
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If we win with only a King, two Pawns and a Rook left, then that's still a win. Sacrifice all the pieces! That we don't need! Keep the ones we do need! Bc5
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Aug 17, 2017 21:41
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idhrendur posted:Okay, took a few moments to read and think. I think c5 is a better move that Bd6, but I'm inclined to think Bc5 is better still. (Possibly) sacrifice the bishop for a chance at victory or to set up a queen/rook exchange. But I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. What I'm worried about there is that when we go Bc5, they go Qxc5, we stack rooks and they do Qxc6+. Then they chase us around and we didn't block the bishop so we can't do anything about that knight. Sooner or later, it becomes untenable. They could probably force a continous check on us, which means we never get off that rook shot because we'll be forced to use a rook to block. I think c5 is probably a better gamble to improve our position, and we sacrifice less and cost white more. So I'm gonna stick with that. Majority decides.
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Aug 17, 2017 21:47
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I'll side with the fish - c5
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Aug 17, 2017 21:50
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Pawns are there to be sacrificed. I like fish's reasoning; anything they do on their next turn helps us. It's high time we made a move that does that instead of having those moves made on us. c5
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Aug 17, 2017 21:54
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Bd6 to threaten the Queen. I don't see the value of throwing the bishop away in Bc5 (even if they accept by taking the Bishop, it doesn't gain us anything from what I can tell. Even if we then make the Rook stack on the d-file, we'll never be able to execute it as the Queen is well entrenched and we will not be able to force it out. c5 is probably going to be met with Qe8, pinning the Bishop.
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Aug 17, 2017 21:57
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Nice piece of fish posted:What I'm worried about there is that when we go Bc5, they go Qxc5, we stack rooks and they do Qxc6+. Then they chase us around and we didn't block the bishop so we can't do anything about that knight. Sooner or later, it becomes untenable. Right, there's a potential for a bit of a crazy dance there. We'd have to go Kb8, after which I see a few possibilities: Qa8, in which case we'd just take the queen and continue the rook's drive. Qc7, same. Qc8, in which case Rxc8, NxC8, KxC8. Not the best, but they'd be left with few workable pieces and their rook still out of position. Qxd7, in which case we do Rxd7 and traded a bishop, pawn, and rook for their queen. Probably the worst for us. So, it's not really devastating to us in any case. But give me a moment to plot out possible results of c5 for myself, as I just might agree with you that it's still the superior move. Edit: Looked it over. I think it ends up largely the same, but one way or another we get their bishop too. c5. idhrendur fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Aug 17, 2017 |
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Aug 17, 2017 22:03
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DM Zero posted:Bd6 to threaten the Queen. We'd be able to defending the positioned rook with Kc7. Not the best, but it wouldn't do much to us either. I just don't see what Edit: correcting c6 to Bd6 like I meant to type. idhrendur fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Aug 18, 2017 |
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Aug 17, 2017 22:09
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idhrendur posted:We'd be able to defending the positioned rook with Kc7. Not the best, but it wouldn't do much to us either. I just don't see what c6 gains us at all. I did a whole bunch of lines to show what we gain from Bd6. It's the better play. I vote Bd6. Further observation with Bd6 also shows it's most likely to give us an easy stalemate trap where the same move is made three times, otherwise they open themselves to checkmate. Phoneposting so I can't edit and review the post. Come on guys, don't ignore my effort without disproving it and E: No, that was rude. You are following Fish's logic, and I think it is sorta sound theoretically, but it is not visualised on the board and so I have issues with it. The main issue the thread is finding with Bd6 is it "blocks" aggression on the D file. It does not. It protects it. In every line I have shown, the bishop either moves or is taken in order to promote a successful D file attack. Remember, the enemy is not brain dead. It will see the two rook stack and move their queen into a position to defend D1 and our aggression will be pointless. We need a way to dislodge or make that impossible, and we do that by applying pressure to rook and queen. The only way to do that is Bd6. Glaive17 posted:I can definitely agree with this. If we move Bd6, they can just move the queen past us and check our king, completely ignoring the bishop. Putting the Bishop in the way stalls them a turn or two, and then we can get our rooks in position. Bc5 King A8, defended by Rook H8. I planned for this but did not include it in my lines because I thought it was too obvious and so the enemy wouldn't consider that. It'd leave their queen out of position for a D file defence other than D2, which we can challenge via Bc5 Bxc5 Rxd2, getting rid of the queen. HerpicleOmnicron5 fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Aug 17, 2017 |
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Aug 17, 2017 22:50
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c5.
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Aug 17, 2017 23:38
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A nice something for us, as a bit of schadenfreude: If you think Bc5 is a mistake (Exchange it with a plain C5 if you wish.) If you think Bd6 is a mistake
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Aug 17, 2017 23:44
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:I did a whole bunch of lines to show what we gain from Bd6. It's the better play. I vote Bd6. Sorry, I completely forgot about your previous analysis. I looked past it because white hadn't moved yet, and then once they had I forgot about it! It certainly makes me more confident that Bd6 is workable, but my gut worries we'd end up in the Qc2 scenario which just seems bad for us. I haven't graphed out the possibilities of the queen threatening our king if we Bc5, but when I plotted them out myself it only slowed our attack. I still feel c5 sets us up better, and am gonna stick with that vote, but you've raised my confidence levels if the vote goes your direction. So thank you.
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Aug 18, 2017 00:08
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idhrendur posted:Sorry, I completely forgot about your previous analysis. I looked past it because white hadn't moved yet, and then once they had I forgot about it! It certainly makes me more confident that Bd6 is workable, but my gut worries we'd end up in the Qc2 scenario which just seems bad for us. I haven't graphed out the possibilities of the queen threatening our king if we Bc5, but when I plotted them out myself it only slowed our attack. I still feel c5 sets us up better, and am gonna stick with that vote, but you've raised my confidence levels if the vote goes your direction. So thank you. Ah, fair enough. If it's anything, I think Qc3 into Qc2 is the least bloody likely set of moves the enemy would make. That'd make what, 3 moves with the Queen in a row? That'd make them real antsy, and they'd feel it's poor development. If you were to change your vote, it would be the swing vote. I'd like to ask Fish or anybody in the C5 camp to produce some projected lines for what that would lead to: We're going into C5 essentially blind, while we have three whole likely scenarios planned out for Qd6. I can't believe I'm the one saying this, but Chess isn't won in one turn. We have to have a concrete plan to execute, and for all of this we've been flying on the seat of our pants having flaming rows over each and every move. If we have a playbook to go by, we'll be able to produce higher quality chess.
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Aug 18, 2017 00:27
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No time to think at the moment, but mayhaps one of the people I convinced into Bc5 will change their mind. If I get time again this evening I'll ponder some more.
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Aug 18, 2017 00:30
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Let's play this safe and go c5. I was so tempted to say f6, though.
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Aug 18, 2017 05:42
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Current tally: 6 votes for c5, 4 votes for Bd6, and 2 votes for Bc5. One more vote for c5 is needed to call it.
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Aug 18, 2017 09:19
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Sure, let's go for it. c5. Sorry I haven't been around more, I think I've lost track of what's going on a bit.
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Aug 18, 2017 09:25
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 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Bb5+ c6 5.dxc6 Nxc6 6.Nf3 Bxf3 7.Qxf3 Qd7 8.0-0 e6 9.c4 0-0-0 10.Be3 Qc7 11.Rd1 e5 12.Bxc6 bxc6 13.Nc3 h5 14.dxe5 Ng4 15.Nb5 Nxe5 16.Qf5+ Qd7 17.Nxa7+ Kb7 18.Rxd7+ Rxd7 19.Qxe5 c5 White has 24 hours to decide on a move. Let me know what you think of the new update pace! As mentioned, based on how all the votes have gone previously the new rules shouldn't change the outcome of the votes, but I hope you don't feel the pace is too quick for you to have a decent discussion.
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Aug 18, 2017 10:35
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I still can't see what C5 does for us. What is the enemy likely to do next, what do we do, how do we do?
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Aug 18, 2017 12:36
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:I still can't see what C5 does for us. What is the enemy likely to do next, what do we do, how do we do? Qe8 probably. They have to do something or lose the knight. It's either that or the bishop. Goddamnit. Maybe moving the bishop to c5 would have been the stronger move, then at least we'd have perfect defense along the back row. c5 is a bit of a greedy move in retrospect. gently caress it, it's pretty academic now regardless.
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Aug 18, 2017 15:19
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Nice piece of fish posted:Bd6 gets us very little and blocks our only path of agression. The enemy queen can just go E8, we'll be forced to move the rook to C7 or else we are mated. C5 has destroyed our offensive. I wish I'd noticed that before the vote finished. The 7 votes to win has potentially screwed us by taking away valuable discussion time, but lets face it: a Fish suggestion would've been followed anyway. E: heh, it seems we both realised the Qe8 move at the same time. I don't fault you Fish, just to be clear, I fault those who did not spend the due time before casting their votes.
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Aug 18, 2017 15:21
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:The enemy queen can just go E8, we'll be forced to move the rook to C7 or else we are mated. C5 has destroyed our offensive. I wish I'd noticed that before the vote finished. The 7 votes to win has potentially screwed us by taking away valuable discussion time, but lets face it: a Fish suggestion would've been followed anyway. Not really, though yeah I would have liked to have more time to think about it. We'll actually be forced to move the king to support the rook, or white gets out theirs. But that'll happen regardless along that line, because we don't have enough options left. I'll concede though, in retrospect Bd6 and white immediately deploying their rook wouldn't have made us any more screwed, so there's that. But then I'm not using a chess computer, so beyond that I wouldn't know.
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Aug 18, 2017 15:26
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Spectators, please run Bd6, Bc5 and C5 through a chess engine and see which one is better. Seeing which move was better when we have contested votes will be fascinating when the game ends.
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Aug 18, 2017 15:33
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DM Zero posted:Bd6 to threaten the Queen. Look, DM Zero totally called the problem. Too bad I didn't get a chance to read that or use my loving brain for a second. Yeah, looking at it c5 was a mistake and I didn't think it through enough. I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize to the thread, this one is definitely my fault for suggesting c5 or in fact even voting without a serious think. I guess I just saw the vote already going and had to react quick like. I have no excuse.
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Aug 18, 2017 15:37
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No worries.Covski posted:Let me know what you think of the new update pace! As mentioned, based on how all the votes have gone previously the new rules shouldn't change the outcome of the votes, but I hope you don't feel the pace is too quick for you to have a decent discussion. That said, there's definitely a pause for thought on this. AJ_Impy fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Aug 18, 2017 |
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Aug 18, 2017 15:40
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Nice piece of fish posted:Look, DM Zero totally called the problem. Too bad I didn't get a chance to read that or use my loving brain for a second. Again, it's not your fault. You pull a lot of heavy lifting for the thread, suggest most of our moves and even gave me the idea to improve the presentation of my suggestion for Bd6. You have nothing to apologise for. It is those who blindly followed you without surveying the other opinions in the thread. I'd like to also apologise to DM Zero for not realising they had the Qe8 idea first. You're a good poster Fish, don't beat yourself up over this. If they go Qe8 though, we can just King C7 rather than rook. They'll likely throw their bishop into a check position though, but that can be blocked by the F pawn right? No, no it can't. Id like to avoid Rook C7, so we need a way how. gently caress, losing the pawn on C4 has opened up the king far too much. We can't keep our offensive position anymore. HerpicleOmnicron5 fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Aug 18, 2017 |
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Aug 18, 2017 15:42
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:Again, it's not your fault. You pull a lot of heavy lifting for the thread, suggest most of our moves and even gave me the idea to improve the presentation of my suggestion for Bd6. You have nothing to apologise for. It is those who blindly followed you without surveying the other opinions in the thread. I'd like to also apologise to DM Zero for not realising they had the Qe8 idea first. Thanks, but that loving c5 move is going to haunt me for a little while at least. It's just how I'm wired I guess. Also, it's totally not the fault of the people who jumped on the bandwagon I was driving, because I've posted like I deserve some faith and I won't blame people for trusting me. That one's on me. AJ_Impy posted:No worries. Yeah, some extra time might have caught that particular slip, because looking at it I'd be torn between d6 and c5 on that bishop now that I'm well into doubting my chess game.
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Aug 18, 2017 15:48
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Nice piece of fish posted:Thanks, but that loving c5 move is going to haunt me for a little while at least. It's just how I'm wired I guess. Nobody deserves faith or doubt. Every move by every poster should receive the same scrutiny regardless of their past history. This is the only way to promote the best moves rather than simply OKing a chosen delegate since we all make mistakes now and again. It's always the fault of bandwagon jumpers as they give power to the bandwagon.
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Aug 18, 2017 15:55
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Covski posted:
(+ means check if anyone does not recall, and K is king not knight.) Okay so with 20. Qe8 we can follow with Kc7. If they go 21. Qc8+ we go Kd6. Then they do 22. Bf4+ and we do Ke7. This lets us shift the king from the poor queenside position to the kingside corner to safety while losing no material from this dangerous attack, and we can threaten the enemy queen and dislodge their pin with Rd8. It's wasteful, but it works. If they don't go Qc8+ and instead go straight for 21. Bf4+, Rd6 stops the check and trades the rook for the bishop via 22. BxD6 KxD6. This is not ideal as it leaves our king pushed forward without defence, but the queen is not in position to attack it (it's still on E8). If we move our rook, we make a terrible mistake. It leaves our king alone if it moves anywhere but C7, leaving us prone to an easy mate via Qc8. If Qc8 occurs while the king is on B7, it is mate as we will be forced up the B-A file and then they can trap us with their pawn-queen-knight-bishop combination. I trust I don't need to show that line for it to be obvious. 20. Qe8 followed by Rc7 shatters our offensive. 21. Bf4. Now we either play Bd6 which provokes 22. Qh8 or we play Rh6 which asks a really lovely question of the enemy: Take bishop with Qxf8 or take rook with BxC7. Regardless, we have too much lost material at this point and will become unable to form any sort of offensive. This makes Rc7 a poor line to play unless I'm missing something. If they do Qe8, we must do Kc7 and pray for 21. Qc8+ rather than Bf4+. If they don't go Qe8, they make the first major blunder of the game. It's great we're finally in the business of predicting what the enemy are going to do in the intermission period, gives us much more time to plan! This feels like we were a ragtag rebel force at first, but now we've got the Death Star's plans and might be able to land a strike through their D-file vent. My hope is somewhat renewed, though if we lose a single rook we are defanged permanently.
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Aug 18, 2017 20:10
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The problem with your analogy is this - we don't have Luke Skywalker piloting, we have Chewbacca. :P ( )
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Aug 18, 2017 20:41
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BioEnchanted posted:The problem with your analogy is this - we don't have Luke Skywalker piloting, we have Chewbacca. :P ( Chewbacca was co-pilot on the Falcon and Luke Skywalker was some backwater hick with no fighter pilot training. I'd prefer the analogy of having C-3PO in the back rather than R2D2 as R2 is an astromech droid whereas C-3PO is a protocol droid and would be out of his element. Chewie may be somewhat cramped with the standard dimensions of an X-Wing though due to its low canopy, so perhaps I see where you're coming from. 
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Aug 18, 2017 20:58
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:Spectators, please run Bd6, Bc5 and C5 through a chess engine and see which one is better. Seeing which move was better when we have contested votes will be fascinating when the game ends. When I do the graph at the end of the game, I'll run those three moves and say which one was best. (I'll also run the move I thought of to put a little pressure on the queen, f6.)
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Aug 19, 2017 00:45
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:(+ means check if anyone does not recall, and K is king not knight.) Alright. So moving right along, I see three ways to go if they do Qe8. The first is moving the king to support the rook, Kc7. This prevents white from taking d7 rook, but squishes our king between c8 and c6 which is threatened by the knight. White can then Qc8+ and force us to move our king to d6, Kd6, after which they obviously bring out the rook Rd1+ forcing us to move the king aaaaand we lose the d7 rook. It's all downhill from there. Kc7, Qc8+, Kd6, Rd1+, K whatever, Rxd7 *death* That's my take on that. Second option is we move the rook to support the king at c7. This prevents an immediate check from c8 queen, and leaves us a rook to defend c5 pawn in the case white decides they can't protect their knight, which they very well may not be able to. I think this is stronger than Kc7 for this reason. Third option is we move the rook to 7e, trapping the queen. The queen dies if she takes the rook, stays, moves anywhere along row 8 other than d and c - and if she moves there, we take the knight, one less problem - she can go to c6, but then we take the knight, or she can support the knight and we get to Thoughts?
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Aug 19, 2017 09:11
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Yup, Re7 is a good call actually, just like how it's a good game. We need to do that. 20. Qe8 Re7 21. (if they are bad)Qc8+ Kxa7. Queenie then really has to back off. If they're better, 21. Qc6+ Kxa7. 22. probably Qb5 and they've lost offensive tempo, it's returned to us. We're still out of position, but now we can return the rook to D7 and start setting up our offence. They keep the queen on the C6 space, we move the rook to E6 and offer that sweet succulent trade. Eventually, they'll be forced to unsheathe their rook for offence and we can fight. E: I can't loving wait until they don't go Qe8 and all this planning is for nothing and C5 actually worked out really goddamn well for us. HerpicleOmnicron5 fucked around with this message at 11:48 on Aug 19, 2017 |
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Aug 19, 2017 11:31
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 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 4.Bb5+ c6 5.dxc6 Nxc6 6.Nf3 Bxf3 7.Qxf3 Qd7 8.0-0 e6 9.c4 0-0-0 10.Be3 Qc7 11.Rd1 e5 12.Bxc6 bxc6 13.Nc3 h5 14.dxe5 Ng4 15.Nb5 Nxe5 16.Qf5+ Qd7 17.Nxa7+ Kb7 18.Rxd7+ Rxd7 19.Qxe5 c5 20.Qe8 You have 24 hours to decide on a move.
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Aug 19, 2017 12:11
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Making a new post to make one thing clear: After taking the knight, we must not move the king upwards. These moves will hopefully force the queen onto the right side of the board, and we have to move in such a way Bxc5+ is not a threat. If 21. Bxc5+ we return the king to B7. They want to do Qc6 or QC8 off of that, be my guest, they'll have just lost a queen. While typing this I realised that Re7 leads to a position where they have bishop on C5 and queen on E8, plus a check. This means they get to choose how they attack the rook. They can have both our rooks for just one bishop. However, Re7 comes before our taking of the knight, and so it does not provoke check if we have not yet taken the knight, and if they do that while we have our rook on Re7, we can take the queen for free, perhaps losing the bishop but also getting their bishop. Crisis averted! E: Ah, the move came through and it was Qe8! Vote is now to resign. HerpicleOmnicron5 fucked around with this message at 13:38 on Aug 19, 2017 |
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Aug 19, 2017 12:13
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:Making a new post to make one thing clear: RIght. Not voting yet, but as far as I can tell we're having to choose between Re7 and Rc7. What I'm worried about with Re7 is that it horribly exposes our king. We can't take that knight after the queen checks us at c8, because then Bc5+ mates us, and because of Re7 we can't stop that. With Rc7 at least we probably won't get a check, but we also have a bishop pinned. Rc7 and we can take the bishop if they go that way. If that bishop goes c5, we're in a heap of trouble regardless. Nice piece of fish fucked around with this message at 12:34 on Aug 19, 2017 |
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Aug 19, 2017 12:26
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