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Greetings team. We are on the back foot here, so I present a hypothesis. We are human, and we can verify that we are human. That is simple and that is fact. We must treat the enemy as not human, but as algorithm, machine, hivemind. As computer. Therefore, we must face the greatest precedent that chess has seen: The matches of Kasparov and Deep Blue. We wait and see the move of the enemy, match it against the move of the White player of any of the Kasparov/Deep Blue games, and mimic those moves. It's a simple standing strategy that will allow us to have a basis of decision making for the opener. Should the enemy make a move against this precedent, I suggest we begin by opening up our Queen. P.S. Hi Davin!
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Jul 10, 2017 20:06
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| # ¿ May 10, 2024 15:32 |
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I think it's best to begin planning, Chess is a game that must be thought out moves in advance. I'm not a good enough thinker to make these plans, though to use match precedent as provisional guidance is best (especially if black won in that match).
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Jul 10, 2017 20:13
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By the way, I'd like to request that in planning we don't use full chess notation. That makes it harder for us who just know chess casually to chip in with words and advice.
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Jul 10, 2017 20:14
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Dr. Snark posted:The usual response to this is to double-move the opposing pawn to block theirs, and it's the move they do after that which will force us to start defining our strategy. At this stage there's not much else we can do aside from having some baseless speculation on their move after that. Can't we do a scandinavian defense against that move? HerpicleOmnicron5 fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Jul 10, 2017 |
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Jul 10, 2017 21:24
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Amended with this in mind. By the way, I encourage everyone on the team to not use the edit function for adding any new words. Post flooding should help with sapping the morale of White team.
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Jul 10, 2017 21:32
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Yeah, D5 is a great defensive opener. That's the good ol' aforementioned Scandi, though again if we do see a chance for positive precedent we should mimic it.
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Jul 10, 2017 21:38
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Dr. Snark posted:Possibly, but that would rely on White moving their pawn in row D to pull that off. If they do end up doing that it's certainly an option. No, it's their move to E4 rather than D4/5, we're the ones that move on row D.
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Jul 10, 2017 21:52
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The first move being a move with knights is a bad move IMHO. We're making a defensive play, sure, but we don't gain any tempo or momentum of our own. This is key in the game of Chess: we need to unlock as many pieces as possible (Developing) in order to be able to fight effectively.
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Jul 10, 2017 22:44
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Yeah, 1s should just be sure to vote for D5 to counter the inevitable E4. Heck, I'd advocate D5 at any time. B or G5 are actually some of the worst moves we can make. Tomorrow I'll compile a list of openers we can use with illustrations.
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Jul 11, 2017 00:56
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That's the point. It's an awful move by White to take on D5 because it leads to no further development and only gains really cheap material. We can counter it with all sorts, including further pawn development or the deployment of serious firepower in the form of the Queen and her Bishop or Knights.
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Jul 11, 2017 01:24
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We knew it. D5.
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Jul 11, 2017 11:16
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What is the Scandinavian Defense? (Source) This is when E4 is bet with D5. This puts the opposing player in a position where they will more often than not take our D5 pawn. This allows us to get our Queen on the centre of the board without any threats, giving us board domination.  How the hell do you play around that? Simply put, you don't. We force the opponent to make one of a variety of terrible decisions, or probably just move their pawn to C4, in which case we can just shift the queen to E5 and threaten an immediate check and then pin the bishop, allowing us to move our Bishop C8 to E4 and win us the game. (we've won already)
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Jul 11, 2017 12:01
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If they go nc3, or Knight to C3, they still have no defense against Queen to E5 which puts them in check, forcing either Bishop or Queen to E2 followed by Bishop to G4 which give us a free pin on whatever was moved, and then we can take it and the remaining piece and again win the game instantly. It's loving cheeky, it's loving ballsy, and it's loving doable.HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:What is the Scandinavian Defense? (Source) New page so I'm dropping this here.
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Jul 11, 2017 12:11
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At the very least we lock down a Bishop and a Queen. Perhaps wholly committing to this line is folly, but going as far as E5 is the strongest move we can make.
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Jul 11, 2017 12:29
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We should absolutely not take the most common move. We need to force the other team into a stressful position where they end up suffering from in-fighting. Remember, we're not fighting one calculated individual: We are facing a collective who will argue. This is why the Scandinavian Defence is the strongest: They may take, they may not take, there will be proponents of both sides. This is why the pin is strongest: those who were against the take will be pissed off at those for the take, as it led them into a dangerous situation. Victory is through unity. We simply break their unity, then we may break their pieces.
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Jul 11, 2017 14:59
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CirclMastr posted:Basically this. Herp is trying to steer us into the canal walls. Again. e5 Davin Valkri posted:Herp, your plan would send the queen gallivanting around the center while the knights and bishops stay stuck behind our pawns. Unacceptable. Pawn to e5. Fellas, what'd I just say? HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:Victory is through unity. We simply break their unity, then we may break their pieces. Our unity is being broken!
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Jul 11, 2017 15:37
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I mean, it's worked so far!
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Jul 11, 2017 15:46
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Can I also mention that historically, the Scandinavian Defense has led to a minority of wins for White. I'd like to repeat, this strategy leads to less wins than draws/losses for White. As Black, we are highly disadvantaged and playing for a draw above a win is advisable.
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Jul 11, 2017 15:54
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Another note: it appears that the enemy is not adopting the "Post Flood" strategy as they have under half the number of posts in their thread. This would insinuate we're up against some proper straight shooters, honest individuals with little discussion. This is the easiest type to light a fire under and goad into poor positions and arguments. I fondly recall my game-winning strategy in the first round of the 2014 Goon vs Goon CM: Red Thunder thread of blitzing a location and firing everything to put up an aura of overwhelming firepower - This broke enemy morale and led to an assured victory. We must do the same here, lest we suffer defeat.
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Jul 11, 2017 16:04
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Yeah the central Queen is actually great for our development. Pinning their King in the next move doesn't need to be followed up by too much additional pressure, but it keeps our Queen safe and gives us a free turn to develop.
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Jul 11, 2017 17:11
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I feel we should designate some roles and identify key issues we need to face amongst ourselves is best in order to ensure unity. This way we can have all our bases covered and analysis done impartially to our voting. I'm not the greatest analytical mind, but broad strokes are my kind of thing so here are a few ideas: We clearly need people to plan our moves of course, such as this very opener. This need will be more pressing with additional options available to us. Another useful role would be for people to plan out the enemy's moves relative to our own. If we can get someone dedicated to this who is kept separate to the actual move making to ensure impartiality, that'd be excellent. Checks and balances are needed for checks and mates, so we should also consider the duty of contingency planning if things don't go to our predictions, i.e. if the bait is not taken. I'm really just spitballing here, but I do feel some form of organisation can make things run smoother. Perhaps if we designate pieces to players?
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Jul 11, 2017 17:22
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Covski posted:Calling the vote for d5 with 11 votes. (10 needed for majority) Unity assured.
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Jul 11, 2017 17:28
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I'd be annoyed if there wasn't a majority confidently locked in. Thankfully in this case we did have a majority for an option, and so the Scandi begins!
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Jul 11, 2017 17:52
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Dr. Snark posted:poo poo, now I'm wondering what took White so long to decide on which pawn to move forwards. We ended up agreeing on the Scandi so quickly in comparison. They're a divided yet honest group. This much is evident. Therefore, we need to force them into situations they are uncomfortable with and follow that up with presenting them with a multitude of options. Hence the Scandi, and hence my proposal for a pin.
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Jul 11, 2017 18:08
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Paul.Power posted:We did spend a lot of time going "if 1.e4 then shall we 1...d5?" before they even played it. So now we must do the same as last time. Team, the Nazis won early WW2 via blitzkrieg tactics. They lost because they became bogged down. While I'm not suggesting that we are Nazis, we can succeed where they failed by keeping up with high speed high pressure tactics. I suggest we pre-emptively vote on Queen takes D5 should the enemy use their pawn to take our D5 pawn. oldskool posted:Shall we discuss contingencies on non-exd5 moves? Such as d4, e5, or Bb5+ I'm not educated enough on Chess to draw up plans based upon such contingencies. We need threat assessments of all of these moves in order to keep up our momentum.
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Jul 11, 2017 18:43
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Nice piece of fish posted:Chill with the amateur psychoanalysis. I doubt there's any insight to be had in wild speculation about the opposing bunch. There's plenty of insight to be had in wild speculation. It worked for me in previous Goon vs Goon threads, it'll work again for sure. Gimmicks and cheese moves are exceedingly powerful at destabilising groups. I'm not a fan of the Scandinavian Gambit and will strongly advocate for pinning the enemy. Davin Valkri posted:Herp is a huge moron. I know--he cost me Leningrad once. Ignore him. You rolled a 1, and we literally needed anything but a 1! If the dice weren't against us that would've ended in victory and you know it.
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Jul 11, 2017 19:04
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Davin Valkri posted:Chess is a slow game. Chess is definitely not a slow game if played right. Exerting pressure will cause stress in the fabric of the enemy's thread (geddit) and we'll be able to exploit that for an easy victory.
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Jul 11, 2017 19:10
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BioEnchanted posted:We are literally following Invader Zim right now. This is Black Team's behaviour in a nutshell: Fixed that. We're a team, we help one another and we take responsibility for the actions of one another. To attack eachother is folly. The only attack we should be making is on their pawn when it takes ours. By moving quickly while things are simple, we can give the impression of our superiority to the White Team. This doesn't have to be real, only perceived, keep that in mind. Our threats too need not be real.
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Jul 11, 2017 19:17
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oldskool posted:I don't think it'd be a bad idea for everyone to take a potential White move & look it over for what openings it leaves us (and some thought towards why White would leave us those particular openings). See, this guy gets it. Focusing on a few roles and ideas helps gets the 1-5s such as myself into a position whereby we can help the whole team. If we can have a standing order plus a series of hypotheticals and contingencies in place, we can move quickly and adapt to many different lines that may be played by the enemy. It's not like I'm saying "hey guys let's enforce a hierarchy okay i'm king you're pawns I'll tell you what to do", it's let's get ourselves into the best positions we can be in to help the whole team.
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Jul 11, 2017 19:19
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Qxd5 is the only way. We get a queen out and we know exactly what they're going to do in response: Nc3, or Knight C3. The issue is what we do in response to that move: this will determine the game. Do we go with the pin, or do we go with another more defensive move with the Queen? I personally advocate a trade of Queens ASAP, because if they don't have a Queen and we don't have a Queen, it's a much more predictable and level playing field and that is what the Black side needs.
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Jul 11, 2017 23:08
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Wait. What if it's bait? They may have a plan to deal with the Queen other than the obvious Nc3 move. We need to figure out how we're going to deal with Nc3 and how we deal with any other potential anti Queen D5 moves. Is Qxd5 actually worth it? I'm not rescinding my vote yet, just urging a bit of caution before we all cast our votes and come to a majority consensus. Piece of fish had a strong idea that I don't really fully understand how it would be helpful and I still think Qxd5 is better than that but we should evaluate these other options.
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Jul 11, 2017 23:17
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Davin Valkri posted:Forget the queen. Let's take the opportunity to break out a knight. Knight to F6 threatens the pawn and develops a piece. If he moves the pawn forward, we take with one of our other pawns. Maybe the queen's bishop pawn to push up the center? Hm, that sounds strong and develops. Best thing is it leaves Qxd5 on the table. I change my vote to Nf6. E: although the aforementioned bishop move may be a threat.
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Jul 11, 2017 23:53
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The pin can be seen both as enhanced and reduced development. It may open a castle, it may cause a panic, they may focus on unpinning or they may stick with the pin. One suggestion I have is to work on a strategy to pin against a castle, which should shut down the entire side of the board.
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Jul 12, 2017 00:32
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Nice piece of fish posted:Also, you don't deal with Nc3. It fucks our early game. Which probably fucks our mid game. Which fucks our late game, and we lose. I too have opted for Nf6, but there has to be a way to mess with Nc3. Just saying "No, that's bad" helps exactly nobody. Yes, Nc3 threatens our Queen but presumably after that we pin the enemy or we move the Queen to another position for board coverage. Nf6 really does look like the better move now, since it simply opens up more options. We sacrificed material to gain momentum that the enemy has now lost. We must press this advantage.
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Jul 12, 2017 00:59
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Keep in mind that even footing is actually being ahead as Black: we always start behind. We need to capitalise and we need to decide as a thread if Nf6 into ??? and staying even over falling back to our previous position of being behind to force a powerful pin. Having gone through some mocks vs friends on this position, I still don't know whether Nf6 goes better than Qxd5. If it's any help, I won all of those. That and my friends are poo poo at chess. Perhaps we should arrange mock games among ourselves?
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Jul 12, 2017 01:34
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We will wait and see the response. The enemy is on the backfoot now, but in a different way to my intent. Good move team! Bishop G5 looks like our best move next, but we need to see what they do first and see if we get a direct move against it.
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Jul 12, 2017 10:45
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They could put us in check (Bishop B5). This is essentially giving them the chance to do what we could've done last turn, but without the benefits to the checked side including setup for a castle queenside: we're better off aiming for that Kingside. For that reason, if they don't put us in a position where we must react immediately I suggest we move our pawn to E6 so the castle is immediately available if needed to protect the King. Otherwise, they have very few moves available other than pawns, knights, the Queen and her bishop, and nothing that should give them any sort of advantage. We might have this in the bag?
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Jul 12, 2017 14:40
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It's that kind of attitude that keeps it out of the bag.  We're playing White like a drat fiddle so far, John Williams called, he wants the London Symphony Orchestra back.
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Jul 12, 2017 14:51
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Bishops are my favourite pieces for their long range control, so I'd rather not lose one but a trade should be ok.
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Jul 12, 2017 16:14
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| # ¿ May 10, 2024 15:32 |
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Tell you what, let's make a total judgement on the capabilities of the white team based on the next move. This is the single most important move for that.
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Jul 12, 2017 16:39
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