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Hate Fibration posted:This was too good. No one's gonna top this. I'm out. so you were never actually interested in having your ideas engaged with or challenged then Liquid Communism posted:Craft does matter, but then we are also in need of a better definition of 'genre' beyond pretentious snobbery still based in the era of pulps. its not 'pretentious' to be like, this guy writes way better than these other guys
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Jul 25, 2017 01:03
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Hate Fibration posted:So what advantages do literature have over some decent non-fiction? The idea that it enriches your understanding of the world and the human condition always seemed misplaced to me given that what you are really learning is what some artist thinks about how things work. Which isn't exactly very compelling. How can non-fiction express the Kafkaesque absurdity of life? There is truth that can be found in fiction that cannot be expressed in non-fiction. Subjectivity itself is valuable, and non-fiction only attempts to shed this superficially by aspiring to objectivity, but they are written from a certain point of view, filtered through particular ideologies. Fiction makes no qualms about embracing that complex reflection-in-reflection aspect of human experience, and can allow us to bridge our seemingly insurmountable gaps, even if only for fleeting moments.
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Jul 25, 2017 01:25
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Tree Goat posted:it's a normative category based on a combination of its content and its marketing, hth. So your contention is that it has nothing to do with quality, but rather is simply marketing choices? 
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Jul 25, 2017 04:19
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Liquid Communism posted:So your contention is that it has nothing to do with quality, but rather is simply marketing choices? fast food and michelin star restaurants are also normative marketing distinctions, but that doesn't mean that there are no distinctions in quality, just that there are no intrinsic distinctions
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Jul 25, 2017 06:27
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There's nothing inherent to 'genre' that makes it impossible for good books to be written, it's just that the demands of the genre fiction market don't really care or prioritise good writing. The fans judge books on a lot of stuff like plot and action and worldbuilding and as such give rise to the general belief that a book, provided it possesses sufficient amount of those previous three, doesn't need to be well-written to be good. It's a secondary concern, something you'd want but not something you apparently need. So this means you get a lot of bad genre fiction being thrust about all over the place, it's not because of an inherent shittiness in fantasy or science-fiction but rather in its consumer culture. The difference might just be marketing but over time marketing changes the very shape of what it markets. EDIT: And when you don't like someone belittling the literary merit of genre fiction, your response should be recommend good genre fiction, not deny that literary merit exists at all. ZeroCount fucked around with this message at 08:30 on Jul 25, 2017 |
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Jul 25, 2017 08:26
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Liquid Communism posted:So your contention is that it has nothing to do with quality, but rather is simply marketing choices? 
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Jul 25, 2017 08:55
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Liquid Communism posted:So your contention is that it has nothing to do with quality, but rather is simply marketing choices? "Checkmate" he says, laying down the checkers piece
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Jul 25, 2017 12:31
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http://www.en.utexas.edu/amlit/amlitprivate/scans/chandlerart.html
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Jul 26, 2017 13:18
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Liquid Communism posted:Exactly. It's all pretense, like any other artistic set. Often coupled with frustration that their darlings are impenetrable to the average consumer, but bad Twilight fanfiction has made the author over $60m and a fat beardy goon who doesn't even write is still raking in press and $15m a year for rights to words he'll die of sheer corpulence (or a poo poo-dick relapse) before writing. What do you think of Myers' Reader's Manifesto? Morning Bell posted:To get serious for a minute - reader contract is a big distinction but there's also a cultural element to consider. Alice, who picks up The Spaceship's Adventure from the space opera section of the bookshop because the raygun on the cover catches her eye, will likely expect certain elements from the book (a plot-driven story, speculation of what spacefaring technology might be in the future, action, etc). Bob, over in the literary fiction section looking at The Profession-haver's Daughter-Wife, will expect carefully-crafted prose, much internal dialogue and character change, no glorified violence, and so on. He'll be very disappointed if the Daughter-Wife builds a raygun and shoots off in a rocket to fight in spacewars. Peel posted:Screen animation is unironically the ideal medium for fantastical storytelling, which is the basic problem with (SFF) genre lit: it's obsolete.
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Jul 26, 2017 15:50
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Halloween Jack posted:Is it even that impenetrable, or simply unappealing? I don't keep up with literary fiction, but my stereotype of it is that it's mostly about family drama, upper-middle-class ennui, and/or people who work at a college. Myers is a reactionary imbecile who is so ignorant to good writing he would be better served becoming blind Like look at this stupid bullshit right here, I remembered it from the last time someone defended his tripe quote:Now read this from McCarthy's The Crossing (1994), part of the acclaimed Border Trilogy: "He ate the last of the eggs and wiped the plate with the tortilla and ate the tortilla and drank the last of the coffee and wiped his mouth and looked up and thanked her." He literally misses the point of McCarthy's prose and tries to shoe horn it into a pre-existing set of writing "rules" rather than appreciate why it works on its own merits. And the sheer gall to compare Cormac McCarthy to loving Ken Follett. Halloween Jack posted:Is it even that impenetrable, or simply unappealing? I don't keep up with literary fiction, but my stereotype of it is that it's mostly about family drama, upper-middle-class ennui, and/or people who work at a college. Its not. Try actually reading some. Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Jul 26, 2017 |
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Jul 26, 2017 16:01
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Halloween Jack posted:Is it even that impenetrable, or simply unappealing? I don't keep up with literary fiction, but my stereotype of it is that it's mostly about family drama, upper-middle-class ennui, and/or people who work at a college.
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Jul 27, 2017 04:43
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Halloween Jack posted:Is it even that impenetrable, or simply unappealing? I don't keep up with literary fiction, but my stereotype of it is that it's mostly about family drama, upper-middle-class ennui, and/or people who work at a college. I fully admit that I am bored to tears by writing for the sake of wordplay if it is not in service to a compelling narrative. The impression that the author has decided to self-consciously attempt to impress the audience by beating them liberally about the head with a thesaurus is not something I look for in literature.
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Jul 27, 2017 06:53
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Liquid Communism posted:I fully admit that I am bored to tears by writing for the sake of wordplay if it is not in service to a compelling narrative. The impression that the author has decided to self-consciously attempt to impress the audience by beating them liberally about the head with a thesaurus is not something I look for in literature. It's a good thing you conjured up the existence of those books entirely in your brain then
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Jul 27, 2017 10:05
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Liquid Communism posted:I fully admit that I am bored to tears by writing for the sake of wordplay if it is not in service to a compelling narrative. The impression that the author has decided to self-consciously attempt to impress the audience by beating them liberally about the head with a thesaurus is not something I look for in literature. I think everyone agrees that China Mieville writes pulpy genre fiction
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Jul 27, 2017 11:37
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Liquid Communism posted:I fully admit that I am bored to tears by writing for the sake of wordplay if it is not in service to a compelling narrative. The impression that the author has decided to self-consciously attempt to impress the audience by beating them liberally about the head with a thesaurus is not something I look for in literature. Name a book that does this. There is a significant difference between craft and verbosity. Ernest Hemingway is one of the greatest stylists of the English language and his craft was defined by simple terse language.
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Jul 27, 2017 12:05
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Halloween Jack posted:
Badmouthing the Border Trilogy is gonna earn him at least + 10 years in purgatory, even assuming God is merciful beyond the limits of human comprehension.
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Jul 27, 2017 20:36
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Crimpolioni posted:Badmouthing the Border Trilogy is gonna earn him at least + 10 years in purgatory, even assuming God is merciful beyond the limits of human comprehension. I mean, if he went after Cities on the Plain he would at least have a chance but going after The Crossing is asking for trouble
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Jul 27, 2017 20:45
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I mean, if he went after Cities on the Plain he would at least have a chance but going after The Crossing is asking for trouble All the Pretty Horses + The Crossing are both extremely my poo poo, so I have a soft spot for Cities of the Plain just by association.
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Jul 27, 2017 20:51
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Halloween Jack posted:Is it even that impenetrable, or simply unappealing? I don't keep up with literary fiction, but my stereotype of it is that it's mostly about family drama, upper-middle-class ennui, and/or people who work at a college. I mean, you could read some to find out for yourself or you could just celebrate your own vaunted ignorance on the subject as you appear to be doing. It's entirely up to you.
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Jul 28, 2017 02:50
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genre fiction of any stripe is also necessarily defined to a great extent by spectacle, and by certain expected types of spectacle - sword battles in fantasy, sex in romance, car chases in thriller, whatever - in a way that 'literary fiction' is not. going back to at least aristotle, spectacle has been (rightly) criticized as one of the lowest forms of entertainment and the least important in a work of art. im playing a bit loose with the term here; aristotle was talking more about music and special effects and the like during the actual performance of a play, whereas im applying it to the intense 'visual' elements of genre fiction which the reader is meant to imagine and draw pleasure from - one of, if not the, most important parts of 'escapism' imo. this is of course directly linked to genre's emphasis on setpiece and plot rather than anything more subtle.
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Jul 28, 2017 22:43
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ZeroCount posted:I mean, you could read some to find out for yourself or you could just celebrate your own vaunted ignorance on the subject as you appear to be doing. It's entirely up to you.
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Jul 29, 2017 00:32
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Halloween Jack posted:In what way is my ignorance vaunted? Or did you just like the way that sounded in your head? to vaunt means to brag. you were bragging about your ignorance. hope this helps
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Jul 29, 2017 02:44
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chernobyl kinsman posted:to vaunt means to brag. you were bragging about your ignorance. hope this helps Well it would have to be celebrated by other people for that sentence to make sense.
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Jul 29, 2017 02:56
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The word choice is a little questionable in hindsight but fortunately I am a poster not a writer and don't have to care that much about it. But honestly you can't expect to talk about how much you don't know about something and then try to tell people what it is without catching a little poo poo and no amount of dithering over vaunts is gonna stop that.
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Jul 29, 2017 04:58
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See, that's why I said "stereotype" instead of claiming that all literary fiction is mired in bourgeoisie angst. But if you're just feeling testy, don't let that stop you.
Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Jul 29, 2017 |
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Jul 29, 2017 05:37
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Name a book that does this. I have no strong opinion on this debate but reading Gadsby By Ernest Vincent Wright is exactly like being repeatedly walloped upside the head with a thesaurus. http://spinelessbooks.com/gadsby/01.html If youth, throughout all history, had had a champion to stand up for it; to show a doubting world that a child can think; and, possibly, do it practically; you wouldn’t constantly run across folks today who claim that “a child don’t know anything.”A child’s brain starts functioning at birth; and has, amongst its many infant convolutions, thousands of dormant atoms, into which God has put a mystic possibility for noticing an adult’s act, and figuring out its purport.
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Aug 1, 2017 21:19
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learnincurve posted:I have no strong opinion on this debate but reading Gadsby By Ernest Vincent Wright is exactly like being repeatedly walloped upside the head with a thesaurus. You know why that is though, right?
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Aug 1, 2017 21:31
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learnincurve posted:I have no strong opinion on this debate but reading Gadsby By Ernest Vincent Wright is exactly like being repeatedly walloped upside the head with a thesaurus. The gimmick here is explicit though: the author wanted to write a novel without using the letter E.
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Aug 1, 2017 21:32
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I'd like to give someone the benefit of the doubt that they wouldn't bring up Gadsby without knowing the central gimmick of Gadsby, but people in TBB can be really incredibly stupid
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Aug 1, 2017 21:32
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I am aware that it is a lipogram yes.
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Aug 1, 2017 21:37
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this book that exists as an absurd language game has absurd inorganic language hmmmmmm
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Aug 2, 2017 00:14
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That paragraph is cool.
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Aug 2, 2017 00:55
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learnincurve posted:I have no strong opinion on this debate but reading Gadsby By Ernest Vincent Wright is exactly like being repeatedly walloped upside the head with a thesaurus. this is one of the dumbest "well, actually" posts i've ever seen, and i follow neil degrasse tyson on twitter
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Aug 2, 2017 01:20
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learnincurve posted:I have no strong opinion on this debate but reading Gadsby By Ernest Vincent Wright is exactly like being repeatedly walloped upside the head with a thesaurus. what's wrong with that sentence exactly
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Aug 2, 2017 07:02
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In the end this all boils down to the fact that too many worthless nerds get bent out of shape that not everyone likes their worthless nerd books. Who gives a gently caress? Most of the chuds who are really caremad about this aren't doing so because they feel Le Guin doesn't get her fair shake or something worthwhile, they're angry that l'academie doesn't recognize Diablo III novels as being the equal of Proust, and most of the people who feign being offended by the mere existence of genre literature are trolling those scumbags.
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Aug 2, 2017 07:11
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I said I had no opinion. If you like a book read that book, it's no one's concern but yours. Clearly there are books that exist which are an exercise in word play, where the author has obviously sat there with a dictionary and a thesaurus, to suggest otherwise is a bit silly.
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Aug 2, 2017 12:57
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I don't think the guy complaining that literature has too many long words was specifically concerned with Oulipo
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Aug 2, 2017 13:09
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My problem with "auteur cinema" (I feel dirty just writing those words) is that there's far too many movies where Danish people pretend to have down's syndrome. None of those directors care about plot or entertainment, it's all about gangbangs where goofy looking Nordic dudes act like they're mentally disabled
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Aug 2, 2017 13:13
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Ras Het posted:My problem with "auteur cinema" (I feel dirty just writing those words) is that there's far too many movies where Danish people pretend to have down's syndrome. None of those directors care about plot or entertainment, it's all about gangbangs where goofy looking Nordic dudes act like they're mentally disabled Dogme 95 4 lyfe
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Aug 2, 2017 13:32
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I would agree that it's very weird to conflate a book written as a stunt, which was mocked by the literary press, with literary fiction.
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Aug 2, 2017 14:37
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